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	<title>Comments on: A Nineteenth Sect, or None at All?</title>
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	<description>News and commentary from the Levant</description>
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		<title>By: Lebanon To March for Secularism &#171; Qifa Nabki &#124; A Lebanese Political Blog</title>
		<link>http://qifanabki.com/2009/02/13/a-nineteenth-sect/#comment-9049</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lebanon To March for Secularism &#171; Qifa Nabki &#124; A Lebanese Political Blog]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Apr 2010 19:32:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://qifanabki.com/?p=263#comment-9049</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] For new readers who are interested in what all of this secularism business is, you can read up on the issue here, here, here, here, here, and here. [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] For new readers who are interested in what all of this secularism business is, you can read up on the issue here, here, here, here, here, and here. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Qifa Nabki</title>
		<link>http://qifanabki.com/2009/02/13/a-nineteenth-sect/#comment-648</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Qifa Nabki]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Feb 2009 08:53:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://qifanabki.com/?p=263#comment-648</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi Jamal, good questions. Actually, NOW Lebanon had a very good article (for once) on this subject. If you dig around on their site you&#039;ll find it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Jamal, good questions. Actually, NOW Lebanon had a very good article (for once) on this subject. If you dig around on their site you&#8217;ll find it.</p>
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		<title>By: Jamal</title>
		<link>http://qifanabki.com/2009/02/13/a-nineteenth-sect/#comment-642</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jamal]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Feb 2009 01:20:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://qifanabki.com/?p=263#comment-642</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Another issue (and I&#039;m not Lebanese so forgive me if I ask something ignorant here): if you choose to withdraw from your sect on a legal basis, what happens in legal personal status matters?  Will your original sect let you get married, buried, divorced or whatever?  Does the law in Lebanon grant those powers to sectarian authorities and if so would 19&#039;ers and 0&#039;ers be left out in the cold?  I know for example in Palestine people in the West Bank who leave their sect to join newer, smaller unrecognized religions (like Jehovah&#039;s Witnesses) end up in some weird and uncomfortable legal limbo on these matters.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another issue (and I&#8217;m not Lebanese so forgive me if I ask something ignorant here): if you choose to withdraw from your sect on a legal basis, what happens in legal personal status matters?  Will your original sect let you get married, buried, divorced or whatever?  Does the law in Lebanon grant those powers to sectarian authorities and if so would 19&#8242;ers and 0&#8242;ers be left out in the cold?  I know for example in Palestine people in the West Bank who leave their sect to join newer, smaller unrecognized religions (like Jehovah&#8217;s Witnesses) end up in some weird and uncomfortable legal limbo on these matters.</p>
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		<title>By: mo</title>
		<link>http://qifanabki.com/2009/02/13/a-nineteenth-sect/#comment-617</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[mo]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Feb 2009 14:58:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://qifanabki.com/?p=263#comment-617</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Opps meant to say:

&quot;The language used in recent years to ferment what is tantamount to hatred and incitment for violence against the “other” will only stop working once&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Opps meant to say:</p>
<p>&#8220;The language used in recent years to ferment what is tantamount to hatred and incitment for violence against the “other” will only stop working once&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: mo</title>
		<link>http://qifanabki.com/2009/02/13/a-nineteenth-sect/#comment-616</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[mo]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Feb 2009 14:24:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://qifanabki.com/?p=263#comment-616</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Liliane,

Im not sure Im as pessimistic as you. We don&#039;t need a machine, just a just and fair society where no one in any sect feels like a minority or is scared that one sect is out to destroy another. 

To get that we need politicians who are willing to work for the country rather than their sect or their cronies or their bank accounts.

The language used in recent years to ferment what is tantamount to hatred and incitment for violence against the &quot;other&quot; will only work once that language is no longer effective. Its not a question of removing secterian reference but removing the natural inclination of supporting the representative of &#039;my&#039; sect who is patently dishonest over someone who is from another sect but patently more honest.

Our warlords swapped their guns for mobile phones but they still rape the country of its resources. It will be up to each sect to remove its own dishonest leaders rather than what happens now where each sect wants to nominate who leads the other sects.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Liliane,</p>
<p>Im not sure Im as pessimistic as you. We don&#8217;t need a machine, just a just and fair society where no one in any sect feels like a minority or is scared that one sect is out to destroy another. </p>
<p>To get that we need politicians who are willing to work for the country rather than their sect or their cronies or their bank accounts.</p>
<p>The language used in recent years to ferment what is tantamount to hatred and incitment for violence against the &#8220;other&#8221; will only work once that language is no longer effective. Its not a question of removing secterian reference but removing the natural inclination of supporting the representative of &#8216;my&#8217; sect who is patently dishonest over someone who is from another sect but patently more honest.</p>
<p>Our warlords swapped their guns for mobile phones but they still rape the country of its resources. It will be up to each sect to remove its own dishonest leaders rather than what happens now where each sect wants to nominate who leads the other sects.</p>
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		<title>By: Liliane</title>
		<link>http://qifanabki.com/2009/02/13/a-nineteenth-sect/#comment-614</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Liliane]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Feb 2009 06:52:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://qifanabki.com/?p=263#comment-614</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Probably such step is more useful on a minor level, someone applying for a job, etc...

Definitely on the big scale it&#039;s nothing but a cute new addition (more like retraction) from our system. I agree with you, even though it might not be life changing, it is still something i&#039;d definitely do, when i have time.

The steps to follow in order to have a non-sectarian country, to have a completely secular country is to remove any reference to our religion from our civil registry, and to have the parliament, the ministry, the president be voted for their qualifications and their electoral program and not their sect.
The final step is to have all Lebanese people, residents and expatriates remove any sectarian reference and xenophobia from their mind, that can be arranged with some sort of futuristic machine that can only target religious neurons in your head.
And then we live happily ever after :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Probably such step is more useful on a minor level, someone applying for a job, etc&#8230;</p>
<p>Definitely on the big scale it&#8217;s nothing but a cute new addition (more like retraction) from our system. I agree with you, even though it might not be life changing, it is still something i&#8217;d definitely do, when i have time.</p>
<p>The steps to follow in order to have a non-sectarian country, to have a completely secular country is to remove any reference to our religion from our civil registry, and to have the parliament, the ministry, the president be voted for their qualifications and their electoral program and not their sect.<br />
The final step is to have all Lebanese people, residents and expatriates remove any sectarian reference and xenophobia from their mind, that can be arranged with some sort of futuristic machine that can only target religious neurons in your head.<br />
And then we live happily ever after <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Mo</title>
		<link>http://qifanabki.com/2009/02/13/a-nineteenth-sect/#comment-610</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mo]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Feb 2009 02:27:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://qifanabki.com/?p=263#comment-610</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Qifa,
Sorry, I didn&#039;t mean to imply that I don&#039;t agree with you. The sectarian system is profoundly ridiculous but I don&#039;t think its going away anytime soon. I think the Hizballah-FPM alliance, as derided as it may be by its opponents was a revolutionary step in Lebanon&#039;s history. 

But it will take many years and many more measures like that to build enough trust between all Lebanese to get us to a point where we trust our politicians to do what is right by the country and not their sect or heaven forbid their bank account.  

Many of today&#039;s politicians need the sectarian divide not to remain in power but to happily abuse that position knowing no one is going to seriously challenge them because they &quot;represent&quot; their sect.

But for the sectarian politics to disappear the people themselves will need to stop simply supporting their own zaims just because they are the most powerful clan in that sect. In other words, we have to get out of this age old tribal mentatlity (that is lets face it a problem in most Arab countries) and start thinking with a national one.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Qifa,<br />
Sorry, I didn&#8217;t mean to imply that I don&#8217;t agree with you. The sectarian system is profoundly ridiculous but I don&#8217;t think its going away anytime soon. I think the Hizballah-FPM alliance, as derided as it may be by its opponents was a revolutionary step in Lebanon&#8217;s history. </p>
<p>But it will take many years and many more measures like that to build enough trust between all Lebanese to get us to a point where we trust our politicians to do what is right by the country and not their sect or heaven forbid their bank account.  </p>
<p>Many of today&#8217;s politicians need the sectarian divide not to remain in power but to happily abuse that position knowing no one is going to seriously challenge them because they &#8220;represent&#8221; their sect.</p>
<p>But for the sectarian politics to disappear the people themselves will need to stop simply supporting their own zaims just because they are the most powerful clan in that sect. In other words, we have to get out of this age old tribal mentatlity (that is lets face it a problem in most Arab countries) and start thinking with a national one.</p>
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		<title>By: Qifa Nabki</title>
		<link>http://qifanabki.com/2009/02/13/a-nineteenth-sect/#comment-607</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Qifa Nabki]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Feb 2009 17:51:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://qifanabki.com/?p=263#comment-607</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Mo

Of course no one would *need* explicit permission from a religious authority. I&#039;m just thinking aloud about whether there would be social pressure exerted on people not to do it, for these reasons. 

As for point three, it is true that they would still be able to vote. But the point is that if we do not transition to a system where sectarianism is abolished then the political players in the bigger sects will have less and less reason to aid the emergence of a nonsectarian system, rather pushing for an adjustment of the existing system (i.e. changing the operative proportions).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mo</p>
<p>Of course no one would *need* explicit permission from a religious authority. I&#8217;m just thinking aloud about whether there would be social pressure exerted on people not to do it, for these reasons. </p>
<p>As for point three, it is true that they would still be able to vote. But the point is that if we do not transition to a system where sectarianism is abolished then the political players in the bigger sects will have less and less reason to aid the emergence of a nonsectarian system, rather pushing for an adjustment of the existing system (i.e. changing the operative proportions).</p>
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		<title>By: Just. do. it. &#171; Comfort Noise Generator</title>
		<link>http://qifanabki.com/2009/02/13/a-nineteenth-sect/#comment-606</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Just. do. it. &#171; Comfort Noise Generator]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Feb 2009 17:01:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://qifanabki.com/?p=263#comment-606</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...]    An interesting analysis of Baroud&#8217;s latest initiative; while I agree with one commenter who said that people [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...]    An interesting analysis of Baroud&#8217;s latest initiative; while I agree with one commenter who said that people [...]</p>
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		<title>By: mo</title>
		<link>http://qifanabki.com/2009/02/13/a-nineteenth-sect/#comment-605</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[mo]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Feb 2009 15:45:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://qifanabki.com/?p=263#comment-605</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[While point one has a lot of validity I think your logic on points 2 and 3 is flawed. Why would one need explicit permission from a religious authority to remove one&#039;s sect from a political document? There is no connection between the 2. If 300,00 people from one sect remove their sect from their id, it doesn&#039;t tip the secterian balance. They won&#039;t disappear. They will still be there, still be able to vote and have their influence. 

One more thing you haven&#039;t touched on regarding this. I think for those Lebanese that lived through the civil war, a war where you could be executed at any checkpoint just for having the wrong sect on your id, this move will be psychologicaly very important.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While point one has a lot of validity I think your logic on points 2 and 3 is flawed. Why would one need explicit permission from a religious authority to remove one&#8217;s sect from a political document? There is no connection between the 2. If 300,00 people from one sect remove their sect from their id, it doesn&#8217;t tip the secterian balance. They won&#8217;t disappear. They will still be there, still be able to vote and have their influence. </p>
<p>One more thing you haven&#8217;t touched on regarding this. I think for those Lebanese that lived through the civil war, a war where you could be executed at any checkpoint just for having the wrong sect on your id, this move will be psychologicaly very important.</p>
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