Lina Khatib has an interesting article over at Foreign Policy about Wednesday’s attack on the U.N. Special Tribunal investigators at a gynecological clinic in Beirut. She comments on Nasrallah’s strategy here:
“He went on to question, “who would accept someone looking at the gynecological files of a mother or a sister or a daughter?” By invoking the issue of women’s honor, Nasrallah is appealing to a traditional set of values that makes the event dogmatically unacceptable. The STL’s investigators provided the perfect pretext for this framework, not only by physically entering a Hezbollah stronghold where they are certainly unwelcome, but also by sending men to a gynecological clinic.”
Lina is right: as legitimate an excuse as the STL may have had to visit the clinic, they seem to have played directly into the hands of Hizbullah, which has slowly but surely developed the most sophisticated messaging strategy this side of Cupertino, CA.
Not that this is so relevant, but can anyone imagine a more succinct exemplum of the lessons of Foucauldian (well, more like Saidian or Massadian) critiques of political, medical, and sexual imperialism? Behold the White Doctor stride self-righteously into the colonial clinic! Watch him violate the honor of the subject race, just as the empire preys on the defenselessness of the colonized’s body politic… Is this not what (a post-colonial studies graduate student’s) dreams are made of?
Makes me wonder whether Walid Bek (known purveyor of Continental philosophy and all things erudite) isn’t moonlighting at the Hizb’s press office these days…
October 29, 2010 at 4:09 pm
Again, looking at the regional picture is more meaningful. Hezbollah, Hamas, Iran will match Israel’s extremism with maximal positions of their own:
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/islamic-jihad-leader-israel-must-be-wiped-out-of-existence-1.321874
“Israel will not bring peace to the region, it will only bring war and destruction and therefore, the slogan of all should be that Israel must be wiped out of existence,” said
Shallah, who is on a United States wanted list.
Senior leaders of the ruling Islamist group, Hamas, joined the open-air gathering, the largest for years in honor of Islamic Jihad with up to 100,000 attending according to its organizers.
October 29, 2010 at 4:11 pm
The most “interesting” portion of Ms Lina’s piece is the revelation that the inspectors Cluesow were an Aussie and a Frenchman. This is the only source for this information and begs the question about her access to details thus far kept under wraps.
What are her connections to Lebanon again?
October 29, 2010 at 4:12 pm
Ya3ni … Nasrallah would be expected to escalate on all fronts.
October 29, 2010 at 4:49 pm
Alex,
If you think that in the next war Syria will remain unscathed, you are sorely mistaken, so be careful what you wish for. The next war will be bad for everybody including Syria.
Nice try by the way trying to blame Hezbollah reaction to the STL on Israel.
I am sure your next post will be to recommend a “temporary” take over of Lebanon by Syria in order to guarantee stability. How else will Syria achieve Otari’s growth goals?
October 29, 2010 at 4:52 pm
In a previous discussion some body found that talk of soil=earth, rain and oranges, very strange and perhaps wrong, so be it. Just to mention that attachment to the soil “al ard” and woman honor are some how mixed in this geographical area. So from the way things are in Lebanon, Gaza, Jerusalem, Teheran and the USA and also on this blog where tempers are up, agreement is rare, disagreemet is maximal seemingly we drifting toward war. Will history name the comming war “The war of the gynecology clinic” or “The war of the stolen mobile computer” or what?
October 29, 2010 at 4:56 pm
QN,
How can Hezbollah lose in the PR case?
Even if the STL investigators walk into a bar Nasrallah will say they were trying to undermine the dignity of weak Muslims by exposing them and are therefore not respectful of people’s religious beliefs.
October 29, 2010 at 5:07 pm
@Rani,
I didn’t think your talk of rain was “wrong”.
I just thought it was randomly odd and out of place in the middle of a discussion about STL and whatnot…
October 29, 2010 at 5:12 pm
God is Greek Orthodox !
No, sorry, God is Maronite !
Hold on, God is Jewish !
Wait a minute, that is hogwash, God is Shi’ite.
That’s a load of crap … off course God is Sunni.
October 29, 2010 at 5:17 pm
PiD,
You are so self centered to think God really cares about Lebanon!!
God is Armenian Orthodox.
QN, this article is another effort to support the sensitivity BS. We are all tired of the sensitivity of a terrorist entity that is being investigated. Wallaw?
October 29, 2010 at 5:19 pm
AIG,
Next post I will recommend praying to God to help Israel find enough value in peace based on UN resolutions and the internationally recognized general formula of withdrawal to the 67 borders in exchange of normalization and security for Israel.
October 29, 2010 at 5:28 pm
No no, the article is aimed at scaring the beejeesus out of ignorant Americans who will believe that HA can somehow perform majik tricks to cram 150 women into a private clinic’s offices.
Is Ms Lina Sunni or Christian Lebanese?
October 29, 2010 at 5:52 pm
lally
who cares?
October 29, 2010 at 5:56 pm
QN,
I like how you qualified your statement with the phrase “as legitimate an excuse as the STL may have had to visit the clinic…” And why do you assume that the STL had a “legitimate excuse” to visit the clinic and ask for patient files in breach of doctor-patient confidentiality. Besides, I don’t believe investigations are supposed to be conducted based on “legitimate excuses,” but rather on proper legal bases. Did those investigators have warrants or proper court orders to demand the release of patient files? If not, then their actions were illegal under any medical privacy laws.
October 29, 2010 at 6:12 pm
QN.
When I read distorted coverage of events being presented as analysis, I care about the influences that shape perspectives..
Valuable lessons learned from the stinking piles of trash “journalism” and “analysis” that informed the American populace about the threats from Saddam.
October 29, 2010 at 6:16 pm
Nour,
From the STL communique:
“As stated in the press release issued on 27 October 2010, the process leading to the visit was handled professionally and in accordance with legal safeguards. The visit had been approved by the Lebanese authorities. The investigators were accompanied by members of the judicial police and the army. The doctor had received approval from the Beirut Order of Physicians to meet with the OTP investigators, and had agreed to the meeting.”
It’s all legal. It would be pretty stupid to assume that UN investigator operate the way Lebanese idiots do, and just storm into a building and start asking questions.
Time and again, I keep saying this complete failure on the part of the Lebanese public in understanding how the rest of the world operates, within the law, in a professional way.
Civilized people DO NOT operate the way people in Lebanon seem to think. Just because we’ve been conditioned to accept the Mukhabart or militias storming into our homes for no reason, taking what they will, and so on, does NOT mean that’s how professional international organizations operate.
I wish there was some kind of exchange program for the Lebanese public, where everyone would spend a year of their lives living in societies where the rule of law is applied and private and state agencies behave professionally to see how it really works.
October 29, 2010 at 6:17 pm
Nour, here is what the official STL statement says:
“Statements in relation to the recent attack against staff of the Special Tribunal for Lebanon alleging that the investigators examined gynecologist’s patient records in breach of ethical, religious and humanitarian norms are false.
As the medical doctor interviewed by representatives of the Office of the Prosecutor confirmed in her media interviews, the investigators were not seeking any medical information from her. Moreover, she had cancelled all her appointments for that morning, so that no women would be inconvenienced by the investigators’ visit.”
October 29, 2010 at 6:17 pm
lally,
Even if you think the journalism is crap. Just say so. It has absolutely no relevance on the author’s religion. Does it?
October 29, 2010 at 6:18 pm
Nour I advise you to discover the beauty of “moral clarity”. It renders those legal limitations you mentioned totally unnecessary.
This is how it works: Any time there is an action against the bad guys (“The terrorists” and countries that “harbor terrorists”) and that action is blessed by the good guys (Israel and the United States), then it is a good thing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_clarity
October 29, 2010 at 6:25 pm
Way to make a stupid argument, Alex.
You just lent credence to the notion of anyone being above the law, based on some vague sense of morality.
October 29, 2010 at 6:26 pm
My own Wikipedia link…Just cause.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law
October 29, 2010 at 6:39 pm
Bad Vilbel,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm
Cheers,
(dinner time for me)
October 29, 2010 at 6:51 pm
BV #17, says:
” It (quality of journalism)has absolutely no relevance on the author’s religion. Does it? ”
It is so unfortunate that some people cannot help but see things through the prism of what religious faith was one born into. It does appear that to some what is crucially important is not the content of what is being said but the first name and especially the family name of the speaker/writer. Thank you for pointing this thing out for the umpteenth time.
I imagine that my first name is an impediment t easy classification but the family name gives me away as being born to a Maronite tradition. I wonder how are atheists classified?:-)
October 29, 2010 at 7:04 pm
BV.
What about “distorted coverage of events” don’t you understand? I admit it’s more nuanced than calling the article a piece of crap but I didn’t think I was THAT subtle.
Of course Ms Lina’s sectarian background matters. This is Lebanon we’re talkin’ about, after all.
October 29, 2010 at 7:04 pm
BV,
The statement by the STL doesn’t in itself make it acceptable. The physician herself stated clearly that she was asked by the investigators to surrender records on some of her patients. This is illegal, regardless of whom they were accompanied by, unless there is a court order. And court orders are usually handed on an individual basis, and not blanket ones that allow investigators to collect whatever records they want from a doctor in breach of the doctor-patient confidentiality.
If you look back at what took place in Iraq under UNSCOM, there are clear similarities here. UNSCOM inspectors were given blanket authority to go anywhere they pleased at anytime to search anything they wanted. They clearly violated the privacy of many Iraqis as well as the sanctity of their homes. There was no point in searching schools for weapons of mass destruction, but they did. The same is true here.
Just because something happens to carry the “international” title does not automatically make it legitimate and acceptable. There are no true independent international institutes that can fairly and equally police the world. International institutes are run by nations with interests. The powerful nations are able to use them to serve their interests, while weaker nations have to suffer under the regimes of these “international” institutes.
October 29, 2010 at 7:22 pm
Nour,
Round these parts rule of law only applies when transgressed by M8 parties. If these records had been at a clinic in Verdun catering to the elite…well you get the picture
And what is written in print is only propaganda when printed by M8 media, otherwise its the God given truth, esp. when written by Naharnet, that bastion of unbiased, well sourced journalism.
And as yet, no one has come up with a single, believable reason why the investigators were there if they didn’t want patient records, unless of course you accept Mr Karams charge that the clinic also acts as a repository for the telecom companies records.
October 29, 2010 at 7:24 pm
Nour, are you suggesting the official STL communique on their website is lying when it says as I quoted above in #16 and gave the link:
“As the medical doctor interviewed by representatives of the Office of the Prosecutor confirmed in her media interviews, the investigators were not seeking any medical information from her.”
October 29, 2010 at 7:27 pm
Nour.
I don’t disagree with you. The real problem is “WE DONT KNOW” for a fact whether there were warrants, etc.
But I am assuming there were because
1) The STL is a professional international agency. Not “Abu Ahmed” from the Lebanese street.
2) The physician herself stated that this visit was pre-arranged, cleared with the authorities and with her attorneys. Meaning, I would imagine the necessary paperwork was in order.
Have I seen this paperwork in person? Of course not. So I don’t know.
But I use common sense. 1 and 2 above lead me to assume things were done legally.
What I do know for a fact is that it is illegal to assault anyone and steal their suitcase. That part, I think you would agree, is beyond doubt illegal.
So I don’t understand why some people insist on NOT seeing what is clearly illegal (assault and bodily harm), yet insist on portraying the STL folks as some thugs who busted into this physician’s office and demanded her files at the point of a gun.
Again, I don’t know for a fact what happened. I wasn’t there. But I use common sense. It is fairly likely that the STL DID have the correct paperwork in order, considering they are professionals.
October 29, 2010 at 7:30 pm
utp:
“no one has come up with a single, believable reason why the investigators were there if they didn’t want patient records, unless of course you accept Mr Karams charge that the clinic also acts as a repository for the telecom companies records”
We don’t know what such reasons could be and any conjecture will be a target of attacks as being excuses and pretenses.
An appropriate question perhaps is how could the STL, manned by independent jurists with no ax to grind but the rule of justice be manipulated by the U.S. and Israel and somehow seek to put down and entrap HA ? why would such jurists want to do that ? THIS is a question that no one has given any plausible answer for.
October 29, 2010 at 7:34 pm
I’ll add, the STL is nothing like UNSCOM.
The correct comparison here is the Court for Yugoslavia.
The STL has gone to some lengths, in recent times, in showing how they operate, and collect their evidence, etc…(See the reports over the past week of the conference held in the Hague, where journalists were invited and explained the process by which the STL operates).
Again. I don’t know for a fact what happened. But I find it extremely disingenuous that people jump to the conclusion that the STL are thugs, yet I don’t see you condemning ASSAULT and THEFT.
I’ll repeat one more time. The physician herself has said repeatedly that this visit was cleared with the Lebanese authorities AND her attorneys.
Again, I don’t know how this crap works in Lebanon, but in the rest of the world, I would imagine the attorney in question looked at the subpoena or warrant, and had ample opportunity to advise his client (the physician) that such a visit was illegal, if it was indeed so, and to refuse it.
Do you people watch any of a gazillion shows on tv about Criminal Justice? Try it sometime.
October 29, 2010 at 7:36 pm
HP @26,
Of course they’re all lying.
The physician herself is clearly lying, or posing as an Israeli, posing as a Lebanese woman…
All rational thinking and common sense goes out the window with some people.
October 29, 2010 at 7:40 pm
utp.
There were more docs contacted during the course of the STL fishing expeditions:
“7:40pm Head of Doctors’ Syndicate, Sharaf Abou Sharaf to NBN: International Investigation Commission asked 4 doctors for information about their patients, and doctors have the right to refuse their request.
[link to web.naharnet.com] ”
http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1208732/pg42
October 29, 2010 at 7:49 pm
So the question is, why did doctor Sharara not refuse the request? Why did she agree to it?
October 29, 2010 at 7:49 pm
BV,
Are you an Israeli posing as a Lebanese Armenian? You are wasting your time. Time and time again; rational people who are not sectarian turn to their primitive tribal behavior when Lebanon is concerned.
They mostly use conspiracy theories and use hearsay as facts.
I can name a few here who accuse the other of hatred and not providing facts while all the time trumpeting their tales.
I am still waiting for the STATE to take action for the assault and battery against the investigative crew and its security detail.
Again where is superman Baroud? Writing traffic tickets?
October 29, 2010 at 8:02 pm
danny,
“I can name a few here who accuse the other of hatred and not providing facts while all the time trumpeting their tales.”
Let the naming begin.
Let’s have some fun. Our tit-for-tat has gotten old.
October 29, 2010 at 8:04 pm
lally says,
” Of course Ms Lina’s sectarian background matters. ”
No one, and that includes you lally, should have the right to impugn the integrity of a reporter base on her name. You ought to be ashamed of yourself. Judge the article anyway that you want based on its contents and not on the gender, faith, sexual orientation or nationality of the author. And to insist that yes, her religious faith is a factor is an abomination.
October 29, 2010 at 8:16 pm
I think lally was joking ?
October 29, 2010 at 8:30 pm
I hate to say it but i think ,and Alex and others will disagree with me , that Lebanon and the Mideast need winners and losers , this no winners or losers is creating and a chronic disease that forcing people to migrate for lack of clear future , and keeping the patient sick ,
October 29, 2010 at 8:32 pm
3ammo Norman, I think AIG will agree with you. I might even be persuaded to agree. At some point, a step-function transition is better than a chronic agony. Good thinking out-of-the-box to kick off our weekend. Hope yours is a healthy and joyful one.
October 29, 2010 at 8:37 pm
Nour
As has been well established and much discussed, Dr. Sharara herself affirmed from the very beginning of this ordeal that the STL investigators had not asked for medical information. They were inquiring about phone numbers. She did not provide them to the investigators at the time but said that she had to check her files.
This does not sound, to me, like a heavy-handed imperialistic invasion of patients’ rights. Plus, the investigators were accompanied by members of the army and the police. If they had wanted to intimidate a doctor into giving up patient records illegally, do you really think they would have brought along an entourage to observe them in the act?
October 29, 2010 at 8:39 pm
A century of dispute peaks in south Beirut
By Rami G. Khouri
Commentary by
Saturday, October 30, 2010
Who would have thought that a gynecologist’s office in the Hizbullah-dominated southern Beirut suburb of Dahiyeh would be the symbolic place where the colonial and anti-colonial struggles of the past century would reach their confrontational peak and bring to a head this long-simmering war. Hizbullah leader Hassan Nasrallah’s call Thursday night for all Lebanese to stop cooperating with the Special Tribunal for Lebanon (STL), which is investigating and will soon indict those it believes killed former Prime Minister Rafik Hariri and 22 others five years ago, followed an attempt by STL officers to examine patient files in the doctor’s office in Dahiyeh a few days ago, presumably because the STL has evidence it believes implicates some Hizbullah personnel in the assassinations. Hizbullah supporters, mostly women, beat back the STL party and quickly heightened the political confrontation that has been brewing in the country for months.
Nasrallah’s open call to boycott and actively oppose the STL marks a historic moment of reckoning that is as dangerous as it was inevitable. This is because Hizbullah and the STL represent perhaps the two most powerful symbols of the two most important forces that have defined the Middle East for the past century or more: On the one hand, Western (including Israeli) interests and interventions that seek to shape this region in a manner that suits Western aims more than it suits indigenous rights, and, on the other hand, native Arab-Islamic-nationalist resistance that seeks to shape our societies according to Arab-Islamic worldviews as defined by a consensus of local actors, identities and forces.
Stripped to its core, this tension between Hizbullah and the STL is a microcosm of the overarching fact of the modern era in which Western-manufactured Arab statehood has generally failed to gain either real traction or sustained credibility; thus it has fallen on groups like Hizbullah to play a leading role in confronting Israeli and Western power in a manner that most Arab governments have been unable or unwilling to do. Therefore we live through this historic but frightening moment when a century of confrontation reaches a pivotal juncture: the collective will of the Western-dominated world (the Security Council-created STL) confronts the strong rejection and public resistance of the only Arab group (Hizbullah) that has forced an Israeli military withdrawal and confounded the Israeli armed forces, while transcending Arabism and Islamism, religiosity and secularism, Arabs and Iranians, Shiites and Sunnis, and assorted Lebanese Christians and Muslims.
The confrontation now playing itself out in various public milieus between Hizbullah and the STL is made more complex and difficult to resolve because of deep links with other regional actors, especially Israel, Iran, Syria and Saudi Arabia. The STL is unlike anything that the Arab world has witnessed or experienced in its entire modern history, because it represents something frightening to many Arabs: the unanimous decision of the Security Council of the UN to probe deep into the inner fibers of Arab societies – mostly Lebanon and Syria, in this case – in order to stop the political assassinations that shocked the world five years ago (but that have also plagued the modern Arab world for the past half a century or more, without anyone caring).
The majority of Lebanese want to know who killed Rafik Hariri and would like to see such assassinations cease once and for all, but they have proven unable to do this on their own. The Security Council stepped in forcefully in early 2005 to do the job, and it did so partly because some powers who dominate the council saw an opportunity to hit the Syrians and Hizbullah hard. At a moment when the neoconservative-controlled US thought it could frighten any Arab party into compliance with its dictates simply by brandishing the threat of an Iraq-like assault, the move was made to push Syria out of Lebanon and to disarm Hizbullah. The scenes that followed did not conform to the script the Bush-Cheney White House and their pro-Israeli zealot friends had envisaged, because Syria, Hizbullah, Iran and others pushed back and resisted the moves against them. That dynamic has now reached its climax in events centered on Lebanon.
Two powerful forces confront each other now in public, American-dominated Western colonial intervention in the Arab region, and Islamist-dominated Arab-Islamic resistance from within that same Arab region. Three options present themselves: One of these two forces has to back down, both have to compromise and postpone the day of reckoning in their epic struggle, or they will soon settle this on the battlefields of Lebanon, Syria, Israel, Iran, American-dominated Iran and Afghanistan, and the oil and gas fields of the Gulf Arab states. Armageddon will look like a kindergarten cookie dance if the third option materializes, which is now a bit more likely than it was a week ago – because of the past century, more than the past week.
October 29, 2010 at 8:58 pm
Norman #37,
I have been of that opinion since the formula was invented in 1958. Some might argue that the “La Ghaleb wa la Maghloob” was essential in diffusing the 1958 crisis but that formula has created nothing but problems ever since. No clarity and no rewards/punishment for the wrong/right policy. Norman, is this the first time that we agree?:-)
October 29, 2010 at 9:06 pm
HP,
Thank you i will stop by and see what you right , i enjoy it , QN has a lively blog .
The Germans lost WW2 still are better of now ,
October 29, 2010 at 9:10 pm
G K ,
I do not know but it looks to me like the Mideast is lost in a maze of outside interference,
October 29, 2010 at 9:19 pm
Qifa, are you saying that while the visit by STL was legal, the symbolism of it, resounded of colonial times/rule? You said in your post that “Lina is right” but you sounded sarcastic by saying it was “post-colonial studies major’s wet” so I didn’t completely understand.
October 29, 2010 at 9:25 pm
Ghassam.
I have no bloody idea what Ms Lina’s NAME implies about her sectarian background which is why I asked. I leave those fine discernments to you Lebanese experts.
It IS the content of her writings that clearly indicates a politicized sectarian approach.
If you (or anyone else) tells me that I shouldn’t dare to suggest that her background colors her perspective…..well I suggest that ya’ll can just save your umbrage because this atheist from “the age of reason” on is not impressed with your stentorian bellowing about *abominations*.
October 29, 2010 at 9:42 pm
BV @ #32
“So the question is, why did doctor Sharara not refuse the request? Why did she agree to it?”
That’s one question but mine is:
“Just what are the blessed STL agents of truth & justice asking of the other 3 MDs?”
I will say that the good Dr looks awfully pleased with herself. The answer to your question could be….uh….complicated.
October 29, 2010 at 9:47 pm
lally: “not impressed with your stentorian bellowing about *abominations*”
I’m going to steal this phrase and put it away for future use. Brilliant phraseology. Have a nice weekend as well!
October 29, 2010 at 10:01 pm
lally said:
“It IS the content of her writings that clearly indicates a politicized sectarian approach.”
Could point to what was it in her article that raised the suspicions about her sectarian background? But more importantly, even if you believe that the essay was not objective then don’t you think that a Moslen as well as a Christian or a Druze journalist could have arrived at these conclusions?
Take care.
BTW, you might be surprised to hear this but I have absolutely no interest in trying to impress you
October 29, 2010 at 10:02 pm
Rami G Khouri should be on the FP ME roster.
Ill winds are blowing and my own dear country is doing all it can to ratchet up the mph.
October 29, 2010 at 10:03 pm
What on earth is an “exemplum”? Some kind of Lebanese nectar?
Get out of the library, wazir al-widener!!!
And “Continental philosophy”? Is that what the kids are calling the wacky weed these days?
I will, however, agree that SHN is living in a panopticon of sorts these days …
October 29, 2010 at 10:31 pm
By the way, what is the deal with FP publishing all the M14 nonsense it can find?
I suppose Halba was just “popular protest,” non?
Just weird.
October 30, 2010 at 12:02 am
Khoury’s article is very strange. Is what is happening in Lebanon a colonial confrontation between the West and Arabs/Islam? Let’s look at other options each one more plausible than Khoury’s:
1) Sunni-Shia confrontation
2) Iranian-Arab confrontation
3) Secular and democracy leaning Arabs vs Islamic Arabs
3) Confrontation between the Saudi-Egyptian camp and the Syrian camp
Was murdering Rafic Hariri an act against western influence? No. Hezbollah murdered Hariri at Syria’s behest because they were afraid of a strong and independent Sunni leader and the consequences for that in Lebanon and Syria. In the same way, the STL is not a representative of the West but of the million people who came out on March 14 and wanted a change in the way politics was done in Lebanon.
If the real conflict is the West against the Arabs, why is Hezbollah afraid of the STL indictments? They are afraid of the Sunni reaction to the indictments. They have said this themselves. If it were really the Arab world against the West, HA would not care what the STL said. But they care because the STL represents the aspirations of many Sunnis and Lebanese for justice and they know what the reaction of the Sunnis in the Arab world would be to a group of Iranian backed Shias murdering a prominent Sunni leader.
All these things Khoury fails to mention. I don’t even know what his agenda is anymore. Perhaps he is just completely lost in the simplistic “colonial” view.
October 30, 2010 at 12:19 am
Hold that narrative, AIG. Come out of the closet, you Lebanese guy posing as “Another Israeli.” One of your better posts if not the best. Well done.
October 30, 2010 at 12:20 am
No wonder the FPM forum unveiled your mask. You just know too much.
October 30, 2010 at 12:22 am
Ghassam.
I think we have slightly different impressions of the nuances implicit in the use of the word “impress”, que no?
Do you think that this claim about the body count in situ is accurate?:
“The investigators, accompanied by a female translator, were subsequently mobbed by 150 women who surrounded them, violently attacked them, and snatched a briefcase that one of them was carrying…”
…..or did Ms Lina read that estimates of this brigade from the “multitude” ranged from 8 to 150 as did I, and simply pick the number that suited her agenda best? Most Lebanese accounts seem to have settled on 30 as the most probable headcount of those directly involved in the event.
Sounds reasonable.
That said, I do appreciate the FP piece for the valuable information re the ethnicity of the STL operatives; they being Aussie and French. I wonder, did they abandon the dragooned interpreter to her fate?
I’m beginning to discern a pattern……The “multitude” also exhibited resistance to the impromptu upgrade of their Rules of Engagement to “more aggressive” by the French Blue Helmets.
This Franco American strategerizing isn’t working out too well, is it?
October 30, 2010 at 12:26 am
HP….you are quite welcome to it.
October 30, 2010 at 3:02 am
Lally #55, your obsession with ethnicity covers Aussies and French, I wonder if that should reassure anyone. On the other hand, not French nor Aussies are there as such nationalities (your use of the term ethnicity seems abusive, in both Lebanese and Western cases). They were recruited as investigators of an International Tribunal, not as delegates or spies for their governments. I don’t care about how they actually behave since it is something out of my control. But I care about what the Tribunal does with them, as I could, as a citizen, complain about it in the UN tribunal trough my country’s membership in the UN; if they actually act as agents for their governments they CAN and should be sacked.
David # 51, ALL PROPORTIONS KEPT, I agree with you that Halba is a referent here, the main difference in this case being that the mob organizers are far more powerful, and infinitely more media savvy.
October 30, 2010 at 3:25 am
mj,
I am also amused to see the STL outreach officer is a former FutureTV editor; did no one from al-manar apply?
Now that would be media-savvy …
October 30, 2010 at 4:05 am
That explains everything!
October 30, 2010 at 4:08 am
Now more seriously, I agree with the people here thinking that the STL is not doing a good PR job. But it is unfair not to underline that PR is not what they are there for.
Moreover, the very nature of their mission and the composition of the teams involved certainly make difficult the task of giving a good image of the Tribunal while working in principle in secret and under terrible political pressure from M14 people who love them too much on the one hand, and under physical threat from the other camp that wants them out of there on the other.
Nevertheless, they have failed so far in reminding the public, here in Lebanon and in the world, that the STL was indeed the result of a unanimous UNSC resolution which implies that Russia and China, unlikely “Western” powers, voted favorably as well. Just as the Rwanda and Yugoslavia Tribunals. The second point they constantly fail to clarify is the nature of the recruitment in UN related institutions; it is always apolitical and a-confessional by principle. If indeed they are NOT appointees by the States, like the political delegates, ambassadors etc, whose work is to advance their governments interests in the UN, the point should be made repeatedly clear, and let anyone who can provide proof of the contrary do it.
As International Tribunals are still in their beginnings in the UN History, the pedagogy work is essential, and also the most difficult one. Now that we have all noticed that the STL PR team sucks, I think we could all use an enlightened discussion by international law specialists here at QN about the nature and legitimacy of UN tribunals, instead of biting into the demagoguery of applying colonial prisms whenever they are convenient for the sake of your political or sectarian tribe (wasn’t the interpreter a woman? Didn’t she have any “honor”?).
October 30, 2010 at 4:15 am
October 30, 2010 at 4:26 am
That’s a very strange, un-Rami-like piece from Rami Khoury.
To my mind, the Arab/Muslim v. Colonial dichotomy he’s drawing is sloppy and doesn’t really describe the situation at all.
October 30, 2010 at 4:39 am
Sean #62, exactly, and there is Mr. Smaha right now on Al Jadeed explaining that the fight against STL has indeed taken the first step towards true Lebanese sovereignty, in a final battle that will finally liberate Lebanon from external manipulation.
By the way, thanks for replying to me, David, it’s worth the lashing now and then for the lack of professionalism from my part. We are definitely not in the same league – I’m a full time house wife right now-, but this is not a press conference after all. I want to think that every body else is asleep when I’m talking, since even HP ignores me lately after having gentlemanly invited me to lunch once(hungry smiley inserted), and GK completely dropped my contributions to the erection of that tall Tower the other week…ah, menopause does indeed make you transparent!
October 30, 2010 at 4:52 am
“Menopause does indeed make you transparent.”
I hear that was, in fact, the “tip” the STL investigators were acting upon …
October 30, 2010 at 5:09 am
Bad Vilbel 29
”I’ll add, the STL is nothing like UNSCOM.
The correct comparison here is the Court for Yugoslavia.”
you want suggest that the Yugoslavia court is fair? Where all the UCK Leaders,in Hague or are mighty Politicians?Off course the court hadn’t any proof,in one case,Haradinaj,were all but one witness killed is now mediator for peace talks in Uganda.Looks like a trustworthy court.
October 30, 2010 at 5:33 am
MJ: While I can’t speak to how appointments work at UN tribunals, I know that at UNESCO, where I worked for several years, appointments were explicitly political for upper-level (high P and all D) positions. Otherwise, lower-level posts were done on a loose quota system, which meant that it was difficult to get a post if you came from an over-represented country like France, and until the US rejoined UNESCO in 2005(?), impossible to get a post if you were an American. Having Bhutanese citizenship, on the other hand, meant that your chances were much, much higher. (It should be noted that the only UNESCO employee I knew who was from Bhutan was both very professional and a friend of mine.)
I would be curious to see how tribunal hiring processes compare to those at organizations like UNESCO.
October 30, 2010 at 5:37 am
Also: upwards of 75% of everyone at UNESCO did not actually have a post, working instead on temporary, supernumerary or fee contracts. I once met a Danish colleague who had been “temporary” for ten years. These working practices, it should be said, were in direct contravention of French labor laws, but since UNESCO headquarters was technically located on international territory within Paris 16th arrodissement, no labor laws actually seemed to apply to us.
October 30, 2010 at 5:39 am
I’ll allow you that one, but I’d prefer to keep menop jokes directed at myself for the moment, the subject being excessively delicate in the fields of gender as well as regional culture. As for the rest of the people not having the lenses to see us, I’d like to remind them that the human kind having developed that curious biological deviation from the mammal order was the only one to survive as human (other mammal females are reproductive until death). If you believe in Darwin, there must have been and advantage in having not-fertile-anymore women around…on the obvious condition that they remain…invisible.
October 30, 2010 at 5:50 am
Ya mj, saba7-el-5eyr! it’s early Saturday morning here on the East Coast, and has not been born yet he who dareth ignore you @#63:
“I want to think that every body else is asleep when I’m talking, since even HP ignores me lately after having gentlemanly invited me to lunch once(hungry smiley inserted)”
Too early for lunch. How ’bout a soob7yeh with turkish coffee (no sugar and with cardamon [Hal]).
Have a good weekend.
October 30, 2010 at 6:06 am
Hezbollah is really scary for the Empire precisely because they are NOT terrorist of foam-at-their-mouths crazy religious fanatics like the Wahabis. The Wahabis are WONDERFUL enemies to have: they are nuts, ruthless, ugly, offensive in so many ways that pretty much everybody sane and with an IQ at or above room temperature just has to hate them. And even if al-Qaeda is largely a myth, the Wahabis/Salafis/Deobandi/Takfiri (pick the word) are a very real danger to many countries….
In contrast, Hezbollah is extremely rational, respectful of norms of civilized behavior and very, very smart. They have a highly educated and disciplined cadre and party membership, their intelligence and counter-intelligence services are probably the best in the Middle-East, if not on the planet, and, “worst” of all – their leaders are impossible to corrupt or scare…. Furthermore, unlike the crackpots of the Wahabi side who plainly do not understand the West at all, Hezbollah understand the USA, Israel and the rest of the so-called “West” perfectly. Lastly, Hezbollah has no interest in any kind of “peace process” or any other kind of bullshit which the Palestinians are constantly being baited by… Their “solution” is simple: they will accept any solution which is acceptable to the Palestinians, but they know that the only real solution is, of course, a One State solution which removes the racist basis of the state of Israel. Its the combination of all that, and a military might which the Empire cannot defeat which makes Hezbollah so hated by the Western corporate media….
Also – while ALL the politicians in the Middle-East are, to varying degrees, lying and posturing, Hassan Nasrallah has a strict policy of always saying the truth, not matter what it is, simply and plainly. If he says something, you can take it to the bank. Even the Israeli public knows that. A man who says the plain truth in a world filled with lying politicians is also a very scary and most disturbing thing, even more so for a corporate press who makes its living by lying to its audience….
Hence the Western media is totally gang banging Hezbollah and Nasrallah. If the general public in the West became aware of what kind of movement Hezbollah really is, and what kind of man Nasrallah really is, it would be the end of the Empire because that would entail really understanding what the Empire *itself* really is….
As for al-Manar, yes, they are pretty good, but I find their website very poorly made and their coverage and analyses still rather basic. This is why I try to read all the speeches by Nasrallah I can get – because they offer an absolutely world-class analysis of whatever he is talking about. Each speech of Nasrallah is really a lecture….
October 30, 2010 at 6:30 am
One difference between STL and Rwanda and ICTY is the funding: a) Lebanon pays half; b) international contributions are voluntary (assessed in the case of the other two).
Two important caveats: 1) the US pays the 22 percent ceiling on assessed funding; 2) a number of UN organizations exist entirely on voluntary contributions (like UNICEF) and some others almost do de facto (emergency requests/supplementals).
So the US pays close to 25% of costs for Rwanda and ICTY (on an assessed basis) but makes a voluntary contribution to the STL. According to CRS (congressional research service), the US paid about 20 million from 2005-2009, which would only be about 10 percent of total funding. For some reason, I can’t find the congressional appropriation. It is not listed on State’s list of CIOs (perhaps because it is voluntary, or perhaps it is tucked away in some terrorism bill and/or supplemental).
There are some rather obvious advantages and disadvantages to assessed v. voluntary, (donor control, which often impacts appointments).
It would be interesting to see a breakdown of the international contributions. I am guessing Saudia and Kuwait do the heavy lifting, with US, France and maybe UK putting in an equal share. Anybody seen a breakdown?
October 30, 2010 at 7:02 am
Cont’d.
Uruguay!
“The Countries that have contributed, in addition to Lebanon, include: Austria, Belgium, Canada, Croatia, Czech Republic, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Kuwait, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Regional States, Russian Federation, Sweden, the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, Turkey, United Kingdom, United States and Uruguay.”
– from STL annual report 2009-2010 (includes in-kind).
My best map does not include a country called “regional states” (Kuwait and Turkey, not so regional — apparently).
October 30, 2010 at 7:10 am
lally 355 says,
“Do you think that this claim about the body count in situ is accurate?:
“The investigators, accompanied by a female translator, were subsequently mobbed by 150 women who surrounded them, violently attacked them, and snatched a briefcase that one of them was carrying…””
I am afraid that I am not in a position to either validate or cast suspicion on the body count. But the description by Ms. Khatib whether accurate or not says nothing about a sectarian background or a sectarian bias. Feel free to critique every word in the short article in FP but the article ,does not in any way , even hint at sectarian influences.
October 30, 2010 at 7:31 am
mj #63: Your contributions to the erection of the Tower of Babel were dropped inadvertently. The total comments were 514 while the sum of the ranked entries was only 411 which suggests that the missing three must be yours
October 30, 2010 at 7:40 am
Sean #66/67,as David said, UN agencies like UNESCO and FAO act quite independently from the UN Secretariat which tackles General Assembly and Security Council matters.
As far as I know, employment policies are written ones, and country quotas do count. Take it as a positive discrimination policy towards little states, in the same way that there are gender policies. So yes, you do have more chances if you are a girl from Trinidad.
As in any big bureaucratic “Chose”, corruption and nepotism occur, and states and cultures have a tendency to impose the manners they learnt back in their countries: the strong ones expect to impose they will, the weak try their best to spoil.
I remember vaguely UNESCO having suffered from financial problems when, following some colonially tainted quarrel, the USA stopped funding it. I suppose it didn’t help with the employment policies. Nevertheless, as governments worldwide gave in to the pressure of liberal capitalism, those governments kept pressuring for “reform” in the UN, and “reformed” were indeed employment conditions, meaning that the newly recruited people hardly reach the status of permanent workers anymore, in any agency for that matter.
Political appointments are common once you reach high places of decision. But don’t forget that any country member of the UNSC can veto a name that is not consensual enough.
As for how the STL has selected its employees, I haven’t run so far into an explanation of the mechanism or the rules applied, which only proves my point that the TSL is not doing its PR homework properly.
October 30, 2010 at 7:47 am
Ya Ghassan, your zeal is exemplary.
I’ll settle for three, no way I’m counting all those stairs again! (I was like you once, but I’ve breathed the ME’s sweet and sour air for too long now, I’m afraid. Keep up the high spirits and the good work.
October 30, 2010 at 8:04 am
mj @74, just to show that your posts are read:
“positive discrimination policy” well, let’s use the preferred phrase ‘affirmative action’ which uses all positive-connotation words.
And, just to be nit-picking in a semi-humorous way, as I advised Shai a few posts back, “periods and commas always go inside quotation marks, even inside single quotes.”
See Rule 1 in http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/quotes.asp
October 30, 2010 at 8:18 am
Ghassan @73, habibi, you want to check your math up there? – in good humor -
October 30, 2010 at 8:32 am
Jim @69 “Hassan Nasrallah has a strict policy of always saying the truth”
Hmm, does that include the part of his speech about the OB-GYN doctor’s office incident where he claimed that the STL investigators started wanting to look at the medical records of 7,000 women and then settled on 17 or 18?
HA’s agenda? it was spelled out by your idol a very long time ago:
For the non-arabic speakers, basically,
HA has no plans now to change the system in Lebanon because the first order of business is the elimination of Israel, which would then make it possible to have Lebanon not as an independent Islamic country but as a part of the larger Islamic country led which is “Wilayat al-Faqih” (i.e., Iran) and which is led by the Imam Khomeini.
As I said, this video is from a very long time ago. HA is indeed excellent, Jim. They are still following that same strategy with the glorious Nasrallah leader who is now even wiser.
October 30, 2010 at 8:39 am
In that video above, SHN is essentially pledging his loyalty to Iran and considering that Lebanon, sooner or later, should become a part of Iran.
And lest others say, well, he has revised his position and now believes in a multi-cultural, multi-religion, independent Lebanon, I say your are naive for the man himself, the Sayyed himself, says in there that he will support such independence until he takes care of the elimination of Isarel and then it becomes possible to implement this merger. Demographics, in time, will take care of ensuring the majority needed to assure this result either by force or by democracy.
I note also that he refers to his religious faith giving no option but to pursue such goal.
To anyone (UTP? Mo? others?) who claim otherwise and start demonizing the U.S., etc., I say you are either naively mistaken, or you endorse SHN’s plan.
I’m not saying that all the Shi’a in Lebanon sign up to this. I’m saying that the leadership of HA, with all its competence and remarkable discipline and strength (Jim is ABSOLUTELY right about that part) is committed to this goal and pursues it in a deliberate manner.
marillionb? changing your mind about expatriation, since I learned about this video from your blog? I know you said you’re not, and you’re there to stay, but what is the solution?
mj, what say you?
Jim? Mo? what say you?
AIG, stay out of this. Just read and learn.
October 30, 2010 at 8:42 am
… and AIG, since you didn’t get the hint last time from my first reply to your “battered person syndrome,” let me tell you that you can take your “battered person syndrome” as well as you “proof by analogy” moronic claim and ease them up your nostrils until they reach your gray matter and get set straight by the intrinsically human logic that must exist in there somewhere.
October 30, 2010 at 8:48 am
Jim, look again at the video of SHN. You say he always tells the truth. So, which is it? Is everything SHN says in that video the truth, or, is HA not really following this kind of Islamic agenda and so SHN was actually lying? Pick your poison.
October 30, 2010 at 8:58 am
David #70/71, the point about “regional states” was funny. Don’t think Israel gave a penny, but KSA?
Anyway, breakdowns of countries contributing for different things in UNland often seem incongruous because the constant lobbying and pushing and pulling games in international marketplaces like the UN can get, well, incongruous (remember the heavy pressures put on some States in the days before the Iraq war).By incongruous I mean they don’t always follow the usual ideological partition one would expect.
That said, all the points you make in #70 are relevant and should be explained transparently. I cannot judge if they have been or not, frankly, I didn’t work on the subject in detail. What I do know is that the very loud campaigns of the opposing camp are successful in depicting the body of the STL as an entity that is not only corrupt, evil and politically manipulated, but also boneless.
Of course the ideal world that UN rules depict doesn’t exist in reality, but I resist believing it is like M8ers are depicting it either. As for the legitimacy and necessity of international bodies where states can interact peacefully, that is another discussion, which precedes the one about the convenience, legitimacy or necessity of any Justice born out of them.
October 30, 2010 at 9:21 am
HP,
Old video indeed. You should mention also that HA has not altered or changed their ‘charter”…It stays as was in 1982.
October 30, 2010 at 9:25 am
HP #79, first you ignore me, now you take me out of the kitchen!
It is my policy not to comment on HN’s speeches: I don’t really trust translations, and my Arabic is not accurate enough to defend my opinion properly. Even if I did, I would not compare videos that far apart in time. It is a test no successful politician could pass in any world I know of.
As for Jim’s faith in him, I would need two more lifetimes to answer post #69. I only have one life, and don’t know for how long. So I would tell him just the first thing that came to my mind when I read his post: lying is a very very defining human competence, that few, if any, other living species possess. And I doubt a person that never lies can live a normal life at all.
About comas and periods and quotation marks, I’m so happy that those are the points of contention that I’m ready to grant you whatever you say that English grammar says.
October 30, 2010 at 10:11 am
HP,
You just keep proving that the Battered Person Syndrome is the right analogy. You keep lashing at me as if I am the cause of your problems. I am just here to help you open your eyes. You have embarked on the first step which is confronting your real demons. I have to admit there is some progress. But one of the indications that there is significant progress is when you will be able to be as assertive with those that are trying to help you as with those that are the source of your predicament.
October 30, 2010 at 10:27 am
Ya AIG, I now have to question your memory. There’s nothing I said here that I haven’t said before. I think you are selective, very selective, in which statements and positions you chose to enter into your calculations as you define a person’s position and status for them. To some extent, and I know you don’t agree with this and you have arguments about Jewishness being related to a tribe an not religion, etc., so, to some extent I sadly observe that maybe the extreme Zionists and the HA-like movements, including Hamas and Iran, deserve each other. Maybe everyone else should just get out of the way, let them fight an Armageddon and settle this once and for all. This is what I think Norman indicated recently and I’m starting to lean towards that choice as the only one that will remove the constant state of conflict.
And AIG, I am not lashing at you as if you were the cause of my problems. I have really nothing against you personally and I actually kinda like you and often enjoy reading your posts (and sometimes compliment you on them — but you never acknowlege my compliments). I do insist on pointing out incongruence in some of the logic you like to apply (like proof by analogy, which is a contradiction) and in what I find mildly offensive characterization of “battered person syndrome.” I don’t consider myself battered. Like all of us, I’ve had my share of good and bad, but my faith has always been strong (in God) and I have made lemonade of all the lemons I’ve been dealt and I’m fully at peace with that. Remember that this is, to me, a forum for thought exchanges, no more, no less. My “lashing” about nostrils and gray matter was a perhaps poor attempt at humor and I don’t mean to offend you in doing so. The serious point I was making is about my disagreement with your reasoning and logic on those specific points.
And, please, let’s not overly dramatize this, the commentators here are neither “the source of [my] predicament” nor who I turn to for help. And I don’t consider myself in a predicament. My dealing with the sorrow of the suffering in this world, at all front, is a matter for my religious activities, completely personal, and having nothing to do with politics or this blog.
Once again, AIG, Shalom.
October 30, 2010 at 10:29 am
… and please note that when I say “extreme Zionists” I mean a certain fraction of Zionists, not saying that all Zionists are extremists or included in this. I think Shai is a Zionist and I fully approve of him and his thoughts and his plans. I consider Shai a true virtual friend.
October 30, 2010 at 10:30 am
… and I don’t necessarily mean you, either, in “extreme Zionists.” Just pre-empting any misrepresentation of my statement.
October 30, 2010 at 11:14 am
To HP
No body should ask for Armageddon because the burned flesh may be his. In the last few days, between rain and oranges, I think I am smelling here smoke if not burning sulfur. The reason I am here is mostly to see what can be done about that Armageddon. I could tell an interesting story about a very very early Christian church, in a Jewish village and a Roman legionary camp recently dug in Megido=Armageddon, but seemingly you all are interested in Armageddon. By the way the media in Israel which is very attentive to Lebanon is totally oblivious to the gnycolocial clinic story and I dont know why.
in Arm
October 30, 2010 at 11:18 am
HP,
Sometimes I do not understand what you are talking about. In the clinic in Dahyeh which party was the extreme Zionists? In the Lebanese civil war, who were the extreme Zionists? Who sits in Asad’s jails, extreme Zionists? Who is blowing up Shia in Iraq and Pakistan, extreme Zionists?
This is why the Battered Person Syndrome analogy is so apt. “Extreme Zionism” is a bogeyman, an excuse not to deal with the real problems.
And “MAYBE” you and Norman should get out of the way? You guys are out of the way 30 years! You guys are in the US paying taxes to support Israel. Protected by US democracy, Norman supports a ruthless dictator. You can’t even bring yourself to engage FPMers politically. Are you guys serious? You are only in your own way.
If you really want to help, start with those close to you. I have been urging you to do that. Only a bottom up approach will work, and it will take a very long time. However, for some reason you throw your hands up in the air without even trying and you rationalize this based on the intransigence of people you have never met. How about trying to convince Norman that maybe the Asad regime is not the best one for Syria?
October 30, 2010 at 11:24 am
Our good friends at MEMRI translated some sections of Nasrallah’s press conference which HP posted above. Enjoy.
HP, you don’t actually believe that he who was a zealous young Nasrallah in the 80′s plans on actively pursuing that very same maximalist objective, which will involve converting the majority of the 1.4 billion Muslims to the doctrine of velayat-e faqih, after having brushed aside the Zionist entity?
Clearly Nasrallah and his organization are just as prone to adapting to the dynamics of changing circumstances as any other political party. Think back to 2000 when Syria and Israel almost reached a deal – you think HA would have been allowed to continue unfettered? Also, their 2009 manifesto (وثيقة سياسية) suggests they think somewhat differently now – liable to change in the future, sure, but not in a manner theologically determined.
I see no reason to believe HA is inherently and unendingly ideologically tied to that political institution (despite their leaders’ rhetoric), though I recognise it will most probably be in its long term interests to be so. Imagine the republic is toppled tomorrow, surely HA won’t just disband itself?
October 30, 2010 at 11:30 am
I love how AIG throws up the Lebanese civil war as an example of purely Arab problems as if Israel wasn’t one of the belligerents in that war.
October 30, 2010 at 11:40 am
Sean,
The Lebanese civil war started in 1975. Israel was dragged in by the PLO in 1982.
October 30, 2010 at 12:00 pm
Sean,
And anyway, do you really want to blame “extreme Zionists” for the sectarian nature of Lebanese society?
October 30, 2010 at 12:24 pm
AIG: I’m sorry to teach you your own history, but Israel drug itself into the war, and its military involvement began in 1976, then again in 1978 and finally culminated with the full-scale ground invasion up to Beirut in 1982. But it was involved from the get-go through its sponsorship of Maronite militias.
October 30, 2010 at 12:29 pm
Sean,
Ok, the Lebanese civil war was Israel’s fault as everything else bad in Arab societies.
Good luck solving any problems with this attitude.
October 30, 2010 at 12:44 pm
From personal experience. From 1949 to 1980
the border between Israel and Lebanon was like the USA Canada border, more or less. There were serious, destructive wars on all other borders. Since then in a slow but very clear process Lebanon was becomming the tip of the sword of the Arab nations against Israel while other nations were getting out of the game. Like all such processes one can graph it on a paper. X axis time, Y axis destruction and deaths. Different color for each nation.
It is clear that the active factor is some thing in Lebanon. The question is why?
October 30, 2010 at 12:50 pm
No one is saying that the civil war was all Israel’s fault, but to pretend that Israel wasn’t intimately involved is either ignorant or disingenuous.
October 30, 2010 at 1:07 pm
AIG @91 I do not know if I should just ignore it when your writings are tangentially off track or respond. I’ll maybe clarify this one claim you make: ” You can’t even bring yourself to engage FPMers politically.” Not that I didn’t take a look and try to see where can one write something meaningful. I found no place and reported earlier the kind of postings I found there and the completely confusing organization of that forum. This is a far cry from the statement you make, AIG. When I see such statements peppered in your various postings I have to start to wonder what your agenda is, given that you never seem to examine objective statements and respond in a way that shows that you understand them. Let’s move on. It gets tiring after a while.
October 30, 2010 at 1:10 pm
Rani @90, I’m all for peace and harmony and progress in the Middle East. I think you and someone like Shai also are. I was just observing that the extremists on both sides of the Arab-Israeli divide are so entrenched in their fanatical beliefs and so extreme in their activism that I observe a perpetuation of conflict for the foreseeable future, and if that is going to be the case, one can argue that a definitive battle/war that then results in real peace for a very long era might be a better alternative for the survivors of such conflict. I don’t favor it necessarily but it’s pretty disheartening sometimes to see the intransigence of extremists on both sides.
October 30, 2010 at 1:17 pm
SK, remarkable! The MEMRI translation seems to be dated October 13, 2010, so definitely before I posted it here. But it’s an interesting coincidence and the translation is pretty impressive.
mj, this is an accurate translation. Watch and see what he says.
SK, actually, I tend to believe that the young SHN’s declaration are still what he believes today, as well as what all the key HA leaders believe. This is because he stated unequivocally that to him, this is a matter of religious faith. So, either the evolution you talk about involve a modulation of his religious faith (could that be possible?) or indeed he is practicing what he preached then, namely, that until the first mission of liberating Palestine from the Zionist occupation is achieved, there is no agenda for Lebanon that is going to be worked on. Then, after the liberation of Palestine, the agenda he describes becomes possible.
Given the strength of character he always shows and his sincerity, I find it difficult to believe that his religious faith has been transformed. I’m willing to be convinced of the contrary but need evidence of that first. So far, all HA’s actions are consistent with the strategy laid out in this video. That’s how I see it. Help me see it otherwise if you have good arguments and data.
October 30, 2010 at 1:32 pm
HP,
The conversation cannot be that personal if it is taking place in a public space, right.
I have tried not to butt into the “dialogue” that you have been having with AIG but I cannot control myself anylonger
Language , at times , deflects from the major point that a speaker /commentator is attempting to make. An excellent example is the use by AIG of the Battered Person Syndrome in order to describe the seeming inability of the Lebanese people to take action. You appear to have been jolted by the phrase, possibly, by looking at it in a very personal manner. The phrase has been around for a while and it has been used to describe countries , individuals and even the US tax payer. To some extent all of these uses were legitimate because all what the phrase implies is a psychological paralysis whenever decisive decisions are called for.
Have you ever wondered why is it that no major popular movement materialized in the Arab world during the 400 years of Ottoman rule? And if you do not want to go that far why is it that no popular revolution has taken place in the Arab world despite the fact that we are the most abused people by our leaders and the least democratic? Furthermore why is it that the Lebanese seem to have a strong affinity to the magic formula of “La ghaleb wa la maghloob”. No matter what happens and irrespective of how outrageous are the acts or statements of our politicians we rarely if ever show outrage. Where are the spontaneous demonstrations, the call to action … Sadly all what passes for demonstrations , even when the national interest is at stake, take place only in response to a call from a feudal lord or a religious leader?
I do not know the explanation for any of the above but I do know that our reaction or rather lack of reaction is due to a reason and I am willing to bet that it is not the water that we drink or the air that we breathe. It is purely psychological.
October 30, 2010 at 1:50 pm
Many commentators are frustrated and writing off the STL. Obviously, you guys do not know anything about the RCMP, its history and how it works. The Royal Canadian Mounted Police has the enviable worldwide reputation of always getting the ‘criminal’ it is pursuing. Bellmar is a hard headed Canuck. So keep that in mind and do not jump to premature conclusions. This is a cat and mouse game he is playing with Hassan Sayyed Nasrallah. The mext thing, lo and behold, you would see poor ‘mice-men’, constantly projecting images of infallibility, falling one by one into the Great Northern trap.
القرار الظني سريعاً والمتهمون أفراد وليسوا حزبيين أو تابعين لنظام والشهود مفاجأة المحكمة ومعظمهم حول “حزب الله” وسوريا
October 30, 2010 at 2:08 pm
GK, good points you make. However, AIG is referring to me as a person when he uses that Battered Person Thingy. Is he not? I would stand corrected if someone shows me the sentence where this is not referring to me. If he is, then I clearly don’t agree because he has no idea what my experience and attitude is. He only knows the opinions and thoughts I express on a blog. Just because he disagrees with them doesn’t give him an basis for the personal characterization. I understand your point about a people’s reaction, however, and it’s a good one. I haven’t wondered much about why popular revolts haven’t happened on this or that, perhaps because my experience has been with folks who are so burdened by the needs of daily life that they have no time or ability to go organizing for revolts. Having said that, I do believe that the remarkable coming together on March 14, 2005 is a reflection of people in Lebanon taking action spontaneously. It was a true patriotic moment, I think.
It is also important, I think, to remember to put ourselves in the shoes of the pour souls having the deal with the daily grind of life and all the difficulties of living in Lebanon. The standard image I’ve used earlier of folks, up to their eyeballs in alligators, forgetting that the goal is to drain the swamp applies here as a helpful image. To some extent, it is easy for us, 6000 miles away to be indignant about the lack of reaction or demands by the local populace. He don’t have to share their difficulties when in the comfort of our beloved adoptive country. Yes, what AIG talks about of making change starting with our surrounding, and what you talk about in making change one person at a time, both of these are true and worthy pursuits. But you know as well as I do the relative isolation we live in, in this vast continent, and also the myriad other constraints to useful activism, both material and psychological for some of us. It’s not that easy. And life, as I quoted before “is complicated.”
I addressed the example of the FPM forum that AIG seems fond of. I really, honestly, genuinely, can’t make “sha3ban from ramadan” in that forum. [translation: it doesn't make sense to me.] I don’t see what adding terse expressions devoid of logical arguments does to the debate there. And it’s not for lack of trying.
Anyway, I appreciate your expounding on some of the concepts.
October 30, 2010 at 3:09 pm
To several people.
OK war is comming.
1.What we know about the last wars in the ME should prevent us all from asking for a war that will clean all sins and will bring if not etrnal peace than a long term peace. A grave yard and a prking lot are very peaceful places. the present situation is better than any war.
2. Talking about and discussing all the fanatic persons and groups and ideas in the ME is above my intelectual capacity. I am not cynical at all, some discussions here are above me, sorry. I am not that clever and will never be.
3. I am interested in Lebanon. Look, in the war between Syria and Israel when Israel got the Golan not one Lebanese soldier died fighting and the destruction to Lebanon was zero or minimal. If next week Syria will try to take by force what was taken from it by force what will happen to Lebanon?
Alternative A)Is it possible that next monday the President of the Lebanon will declare that if and when that happen Lebanon is out. You can send missiles over our heads, fly planes over us but dont shoot at us and dont get into our country. And he will call for a national referendum about that and also ask the security council to back that nutrality.
Altrnative B)as is being planned now that war will be conducted on Lebanese soil.
I realy dont understand why there are not in Lebanon a large number of people who are saying: F…K Israel, F…K Syria fight your wars on your own soil, leave us alone !!! No!! we do not want peace with F..ked Israel ever never, but what is good for Egypt and Jordan is good for us. Why cant’ it be?
October 30, 2010 at 5:15 pm
Rani,
It can be and it must be . You are offering me another opportunity to sgare the last in a large number of my posts on this very topic.
http://rationalrepublic.blogspot.com/2010/10/is-war-only-choice.html
October 30, 2010 at 5:55 pm
Speaking of God and who He belongs to, I have to tell this funny – made – up – tale. No offense is meant to anyone. It’s just a joke.
Last time the pope visited the white house during the Bush years, He noticed a red phone at the president’s desk. His curiosity got the best of him, and He asked Bush what the red phone was for. Bush, “the greatest believer he was”, answered the pope by saying that “this is the phone God and I use to communicate. The pope, very happy and excited, asked the president If he can make a call to God. Sure, the president said, but it will cost you $100 a minute. No problem, the pope quickly responded, I’ll pay any price to speak to God. He made the call, and talked to God. He was very happy pope.
On his next visit to Russia, The pope saw the same red phone at the Kremlin. He went through the same Q&A, with the Russian president, and ended up making the call to God, at the rate of $50 per minute. You can bet He spoke much longer than He did when called from the white house.
When He visited Israel, He saw the same phone at the Netanyahu’s office. Right away, he recognized the unique red phone, and asked Netanyahu if he use the phone to make a call to God. To his surprise, Netanyahu told him that it would cost him $ 5 per minute to use the phone. Shocked at how inexpensive the rate was, he told Netanyahu that he paid $100, and $ 50 per minute at the white house and the Kremlin respectively. Netanyahu, explaining the drastic rate difference, told the pope that from Washington and Moscow calls to God ARE long distance, but here, calls to God ARE local calls.
In a way, this joke explains the core problem of the Middle East conflict.
October 30, 2010 at 6:21 pm
Ya Prophet, good joke albeit a bit dated given that VOIP really makes it somewhat anachronistic; “this joke explains the core problem of the Middle East conflict,” can you help me understand how?
October 30, 2010 at 6:22 pm
… and sorry for being slow
October 30, 2010 at 6:54 pm
Honest Patriot
I know it is an old joke. It came to mind while reading many of the posts, that spoke of God. I told it as I had I heard it. It may very well have been told diffrently.
Everyone has a monopoly on God in the Middle East. Jews, Muslims, and Christians claim, each, to know, speak for, and own God for themselves. Jews claim that God chose them above others. Muslim, on the other hand, say that Allah didn’t tell them that.
All three faiths initiated in the same area where religious conflicts have been rising for hundreds of years.
The Arab-Israeli conflict is becoming more of a Muslim –Jews conflict, if you haven’t noticed. Israel is trying to secure Palestinians’ recognition of Israel as a Jewish state, instead of home to the Jews.
When a state wants to be recognized officially as a
October 30, 2010 at 6:56 pm
Last sentence should have read as follows:
When a state wants to be recognized officially as a Jewish state, sooner or later some groups will claim it a Muslim/Palestinian state.
October 30, 2010 at 8:06 pm
Thanks, Prophet. I do agree with you 100%. My own perspective on this topic is that the absolute necessary condition for social order and economic and political stability and longevity is the separation of church/mosque/temple and state. Religion is a purely personal matter which, if it includes social organization, must be decoupled of the political rules and systems of governance. As much as some Israelis, including AIG, try to nuance the Israeli approach by saying that Jewishness is tribe-like and not religion base, it’s really hogwash and my earlier comment that extreme Zionists and Hamas-like and HA-like religiously-based political movements deserve each other and maybe should be left to fight it out to the end.
October 30, 2010 at 8:36 pm
Having introduced to this discussion thread the quite old video of a young HSN and used it to establish a position of mistrust of HA’s aims, let me add a few considerations to that post and to some of the following discussion that ensued.
I’ll start with a light-hearted comment about a discovery I made in that video. Scandal of scandals, I discovered a grammatical/pronounciation error by His Eloquence SHN. Gotcha! You have to know Arabic and further know Arabic grammar to understand this and it will lose so much in translation that it’s not worth explaining. So, to those who do understand, look at the portion starting in the video I posted in #79 at 2:13 (back up a few seconds to get the whole sentence). Where he says ( عن علاقة حزب الله ) notice that he puts a “waw” as short vowel on Hizb whereas it should be a “kasra.” For me, it’s the first time I’ve noticed such a mistake. So, the proof is in: unlike the Pope, SHN is fallible. – In good humor.
On a more serious note, I have to revise my earlier comment about SHN declaring that HA has to free Palestine prior to turning to which plan to implement in Lebanon. To be fair, since the video was recorded in the 1980s, a valid interpretation could be that he was referring to the Israeli occupation of South Lebanon. So my claim there that he was implying that HA is the one planning to and responsible for the liberation of Palestine from the Israeli occupation is not a necessarily correct inference based on that video, and I should correct my statement there to simply say we don’t know and if someone claims it was only referring to the liberation of South Lebanon then we cannot refute that claim.
On the other hand, the implication that a plan would then follow for implementing the rule of the Faqih in Lebanon as a satellite/province of Iran and that there should be no geographic boundaries to where that state spread but should encompass anywhere muslims are, that implication is unambiguously stated and is indeed scary. Equally scary is the explicit declaration that the plan and supporting intentions cannot be articulated in political speech because it would not be accepted, implying that they should work on it but not be vocal about it. It is that section that makes a strong case that we have no reason to believe that any change of heart could occur here, regardless of the political declarations of HA. After all, it is stated clearly that this plan is dictated by religious faith. This means: religious faith implies the plan. The logical equivalent is that if they abandon that plan then they are renouncing or at least modulating their religious faith. Somehow I don’t see this as something the religious faithful would accept.
End of analysis.
October 30, 2010 at 9:10 pm
You might like to read this and do you think it applies to Lebanon and would Lebanon surrender any accused ,
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/babylonbeyond/2010/10/lebanon-the-stl-could-learn-a-thing-or-two-from-the-icty.html
October 30, 2010 at 9:56 pm
@115
I didn’t see in the LA Times story any refrences to the question you are asking. On the contrary that story emphasizes very clearly the resilience of similar International Tribunals in conducting their proceedings. The story also implies indictmests are imminent by the fact that media personnel were recently given briefings on procedures. I do not see any alternatives for Lebanon, and even Hezbollah, but to comply. I would also say if Syrians were indicted, the Syrian government has no alternatives but to also comply, and I would advise the junior Assad not to play with his tails and mess around with the Great North.
October 30, 2010 at 10:18 pm
That is exactly the question , will Hezbollah and Lebanon comply and follow Yugoslavia or will Hezbollah move forward and take over Lebanon , and will the present government of Lebanon take that chance , my take is the the Lebanese government will push for the international court but will make sure for that court not to indict any living Hezbollah member ,
This way will not look as backing down and Hezbollah will be cleared .
October 30, 2010 at 10:32 pm
@117,
That is exactly what I meant by my advice to junior Assad: DO NOT PLAY WITH YOUR TAILS.
Hezbolah will not take over Lebanon, the Present Government will not back down and Harriri will not give in.
Whether the indictees are alive or dead, the proceedings will continue and indictments may go all the way up to the top, i.e. to Hassan himself and Bashar and family.
The only thing Hezbollah can do is withdraw its ministers. They can do that tommorow as far as everybody is concerned and nothing will change.
October 30, 2010 at 10:49 pm
Hariri said that Syria has nothing to do with his father death , Hezbollah will not be Milosevic and will not let the people who wanted to destroy it by force do that by any court especially a court Hezbollah is accusing of being an agent of the US and Israel , If Hariri junior does not have foresight Lebanon will be facing a civil war ,
October 30, 2010 at 10:53 pm
So, what is your point?
October 30, 2010 at 11:07 pm
Foucauldian? How about simple medical ethics?
Unless someone else has linked to this:
As’ad AbuKhalil
October 30, 2010 at 11:26 pm
# 121,
I do not know why you are so surprised , they do not consider us as worthy of their laws and their protection when it is not of their interest ,
October 30, 2010 at 11:41 pm
#122,
So it seems you do not have a point in #119. OK, so #121 conveniently gives you the pretext to change the subject .
Let’s see. Who are they and are us? Which laws do you have in mind?
We all know the crime plus many other crimes took place. They are all crimes under ANY law. Anything that brings the criminals to justice should be welcome no matter what law brings them in. Right? Or would that be a surprise to you?
B&D #121,
Asa’d's blog is perhaps the best medicine for boredom and disgust. You were luckily guided into the best clinic for your case.
October 30, 2010 at 11:54 pm
The international court was used to push Syria out of Lebanon , force her into submission and surrender and is being used to destroy Hezbollah , Hezbollah will not let that take place with your help or without it , If the law to be applied then President Bush and his VP should be tried for war crime for being responsible for the death of more than 100000 Iraqis , sorry i forgot they establish courts for others but themselves , they are above the law that you are so fond of,
October 31, 2010 at 12:13 am
# 124,
OK, so I understand you have grievances against President Bush and his VP. Specifically, you want them to be tried for the death of 100000 Iraqis.
What does that have to do with trying other crimes? Should every crime that takes place in this world be put on the shelf until President Bush and his VP are put on trial? Is that what you are saying?
October 31, 2010 at 2:08 am
Norman,
If you are talking about the STL then you are very mistaken. The STL was approved to investigate a crime after Syria had already left. But even if the facts were not wrong are you seriously suggesting; I guess that you are; that you approve of the Syrian occupation and exploitation of Lebanon? Just listen to yourself; you want Israel to give Syria the Golan but you want to occupy Lebanon. I cannot believe that.
October 31, 2010 at 3:47 am
Going back to our lighter side, since the Falafel topic comes up often on QN:
October 31, 2010 at 7:18 am
Norman #119
“Hariri said that Syria has nothing to do with his father death”…
He said no such thing. He said his accusations against Syria were of political nature and he should not have done that.
But, let’s assume hariri said that; so what? There are laws that have to be respected. There were tens of people who died on February 14th explosion and the subsequent ones.
Norman why are all Syrian regime’s defenders scared of the truth? Why don’t you wait till the indictments come out? The dictators of Syria have already retained top shelf lawyers for their defence.
Chill and wait for the process. It will transparent and according to Lebanese and International agreed upon laws and procedures.
The intimidation tactics of your regime and its lackeys will not have their desired effect. Last week journalists were taken to The Hague whereas they were given a tour and seminars on the process of the STL as well as how the Yugoslavian court functioned. The same threats and misinformation were apparently repeated in that case. However; as usual mafiosos always think they are infallible.
Dude’ no one is! Read your recent history.
October 31, 2010 at 7:21 am
to 121
B&D is a Jew not in Lebanon, probably in north America, extreme anti-zionist. Abukhalil is ex. Lebanese ex. PLF some thing or another, with all kind of connections as far as Pakistan, teaching in Cal. That “Talal” is probably ex Lebanese and an MD in the USA. They know absolutly nothing from first, 2nd 3rd source about the hapenings in that clinic in Dahia. All that they write is based on interpretation of interprtations and is rummor mongering. As far as we know from the local STL things were checked locally again and again, with local legal & medical experts, nothing from Lebanon contradict that information. The cynical intervention by such three outsiders on such flimsy base is a typical expression of imperialism and orientalism and total disregard of the locals:”in Lebanon everything is corrupted and these in the west know best”. When it comes from the so called far left such, realy evil, attitude is right and accepted. Hopefully that MD use better information and judgment in his practice.
October 31, 2010 at 7:48 am
G K,
No i do not want Lebanon to be dominated by Syria , Lebanon was a liability to Syria where Syria was expected to control but as we all know was not able to do so , I want Syria and Lebanon to be like New Jersey and Pennsylvania , two state in one nation ,
Danny,
Will see about the court , i feel that it will accuse nobody alive , I might be wrong but hope not for the sake of Lebanon ,as i see no compromise in the next Lebanese crises .
October 31, 2010 at 8:36 am
I wonder if the visits to the clinic was to look for a contagious sexual disease that was found in the dead suicide bomber that committed the killing to associate a know wife to him , like HPV , so if that was found in the bomber and found in the suspected wife then that might confirm his identity ,
October 31, 2010 at 8:45 am
Norman #130
You do not seem to be able to get out of your way:-) You do not want Lebanon to be dominated by Syria but you want it to be part of Syria. No matter how you spin it you are against a sovereign independent Lebanon. What is it the about an independent Lebanon that you find so distasteful? If you are an advocate of a fertile crescent then why do you accept Jordanand Iraq? If you do not then why don’t you say something about it? What about Saudi Arabia? Is it part of your plan? And Why not Egypt and the Sudan etc… But above all what about personal freedom and liberty? Do they enter into your calculus or is it the same old story of justifying a dictatorship? Nothing , not even the most revered dreams and aspirations can justify a dictatoirship? If the people of two political entities wish to merge then let them do so but do not justify despicable acts of constant interference in the affairs of a neighbour by saying I know better than you what is good for you. That has been tried over and over again but it has always failed.
October 31, 2010 at 9:12 am
G K ,
Lebanon was never sovereign , you want freedom and liberty then have one man one vote as real democracy should be do not call your Lebanon a free country and ban people from being everything they can ,then will see how many people and if Lebanon wants to be with Syria or with Israel , You are an economist and should know that if Syria wants to consider Lebanon enemy state as Israel consider Gaza and even with only land blockade Lebanon will go more bankrupt than it is now , in Syria we are happy with Bashar Assad at least most of us We are happy that Christians and Muslim can live together without having segregated neighborhoods which is the ultimate in personal freedom , the freedom to live where we want ,
You talk about the liberties that you have in Lebanon , what is your chance of becommming a president in Lebanon ,or even prime mister , 0% , there is even more chance for a Syrian born in the US to be president than your chance of getting what you might deserve ,
and yes Saudi , Egypt , Morocco, Iraq and Sudan are all parts of one , They are part of one nation as the states in the US ,
October 31, 2010 at 9:46 am
3ammo Norman @133 “Lebanon was never sovereign.”
I would think there is a difference between sovereignty and form of government. From 1943 to 1975 I think most Lebanese and most of the world thought of Lebanon as sovereign. Of course things started to get dicey after the Cairo agreement which allowed Palestinians to mount armed struggle against Israel from Lebanese territory, so maybe 1943 to 1970. After that, foreign intervention from virtually everywhere got in the picture. Sure, the Marines were there in 1958, but only very briefly and more by way of protection of the Christians than intervention.
No one can argue that Syria was and is sovereign since its independence from France.
Democracy, form of government, etc., are a whole different subject, and in it, I would guess none of the Arab countries holds a high standard.
October 31, 2010 at 9:52 am
I am always amazed by individuals who live in the West yet they retain the same backward mentality as if they never left Lebanon or Syria.
October 31, 2010 at 10:12 am
anonymous,
Please let me know if/when the briefcase, reportedly snatched from an STL investigator at the clinic, has been/is returned.
October 31, 2010 at 10:24 am
V,
I hope you don’t mean anyone who lives in Lebanon/Syria, has a backward mentality!
October 31, 2010 at 10:30 am
HP ,
I agree , you make sense ,
October 31, 2010 at 10:52 am
Now if you ask me whether someone, who has lived in Lebanon/Syria for their whole life, not even leaving for a single day, has a backward mentality, I will say not necessarily.
October 31, 2010 at 11:00 am
# 136,
Badr,
You should know by now that briefcase will never be returned. It was meant to stay in Dahiyeh and specifically with Hassan Sayyed Nasrallah.
Bellemar sent a personal message in that briefcase to the Sayyed (sorry I meant to say the infallible image of your wali). Bellemar informed the Sayyed that there are three options for punishing convicted criminals in this court: death by firing squad, death by hanging or death by head severing by a guillotine(the closest we can come to death by the sword for those who prefer this option). The Sayyed was also informed that pleading guilty as charged will automatically commute the sentence to life in prison.
October 31, 2010 at 11:15 am
anonymous,
It seems that you did not get the gist of my comment to you.
October 31, 2010 at 11:20 am
Norman,
A state is sovereign when the international community recognizes it as an independent state. When I criticize Lebanon , which is almost every waking moment , I do so for its familiar to exercise its sovereignty. And that , as you know, or should know, is a completely different ball of wax.
I never made any comparisons between Lebanon and Syria, you are the one who did. Again you seem to be extremely misinformed about any and all metrics whether they be social , political or economic. Unfortunately the Syrian dictatorships have transformed the country into a basket case in all fields. You choose the statistic and Syria has unfortunately become the North Korea of the Middle East. And what of a false choice is this: to be with Syria or with Israel?
Norman, all dictatorships survive by spreading fear and circumscribing freedom. They never succeed and Syria is no exception.
Actually all Arab regimes are ripe for a revolution that will transform the region. That Annus Mirabilis is coming and when it does I hope that it will not be a bloody one.
October 31, 2010 at 11:41 am
Norman @133
You said “…can live together without having segregated neighborhoods which is the ultimate in personal freedom.” That’s a brave conclusion! What about freedom of speech? Can you please let us know how you feel about it “freely”?
Lebanon is no model for democracy, but I believe it’s one of the few Arab countries with remote possibilities of being there. Lebanese even tolerate the likes of Wahab, Jumblat, Jumael, geagea who are entitled to their opinions “freely”?.
October 31, 2010 at 12:08 pm
As I said often this blog is above me. Now things have evolved from a gnycological clinic in Dahia to the unification or separation of the whole ME into several states or one big state. In the “big” state Syria and Lebanon will be like New Jersey and Pennsylvania. I give you Pennsylvania’s state motto: “Virtue, Liberty and Independence” and New Jersey’s state motto “Liberty and Prosperity”. I think that size wise and character wise NJ motto fits Lebanon. However it seems that if Syria is in it at least the motto will have to be different than Penn.
October 31, 2010 at 12:40 pm
# 141,
Badr, sorry I do not read minds, but I can read English.
October 31, 2010 at 1:24 pm
Again, reading this page reminds me why I read Angry Arab Anarchist Aristocrat and The Friday Lush Klub. “G, Z, OR B” (he? she? it?) do a nice mark-up job on this one, and AA(AA) is very good: angryarab.blogspot.com/2010/10/sense-from-lebanon.html
Love to see a conversation along these line here, but it’s not gonna happen.
October 31, 2010 at 1:46 pm
Ghassan,
Idealism is definitely conflicting with realities.
You always write about the need for every state and especially Lebanon to exercise its Sovereignty. Being a big supporter of the STL, which was established by the UN, don’t you think that the UN Security Council has taken away Lebanon’s Judiciary sovereignty, or what ever sovereignty it had?
Don’t you think Lebanese government subsidized its responsibilities to the UN( and the STL), without going through parliament, and the head of the state, as Lebanese constitution requires?
What is your take on the constitutional questions surrounding the agreement signed by the Seniora government and the UN?
What is your take on the STL investigators requesting personal data of close to a million Lebanese, from Minister Baroud, and other security establishment? We also hear that the STL investigators have requested, and received all personal and phone data from the ministry of communications.
Don’t you think that constitutional rights are being abused, and personal information is being exposed unnecessarily? I won’t get into the conspiracy theories that this data is being shared with other countries for different reasons, since I have no proof of that( though it could happen).
Do any of these questions raise an alarm in your judgment? Just don’t shoot me for asking too many question, you know how little faith I have of the UN ,and the international community.
October 31, 2010 at 2:23 pm
# 145,
May be you should ask yourself this question:
Did Hassan Sayyed Nasrallah surrender the sovereingty of Lebanon, and not just the Judicial sovereignty you seem to be bemoaning, to Iran long before the STL was established?
It is bewildering. Are the Hizbi supporters so devoid of logic and reason, or are they just doing it for fun and entertainment?
Does any one see tears of snakes?
October 31, 2010 at 2:49 pm
To HP @ 102 & 114
Apologies for a delayed reply.
Memri’s translators certainly are capable of doing a good job but I’ll defer to others for notes of extreme caution:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/aug/12/worlddispatch.brianwhitaker
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/2004/12/memri-watch-conventional-middle-east.html
But to your posts:
To focus too much on religious faith would be to fall into the trap of what Rodinson called theologocentrism. Comments like “this plan is dictated by religious faith” and “religious faith implies the plan” decontextualise the environment in which that faith is conceived, articulated, reproduced and (most importantly for our case) given political expression. I see no need to doubt that Nasrallah’s faith is unflinching, and that perhaps he still deep-down wishes to see his utopian Islamic state materialize – but let us not focus on that maximalist position thereby losing sight of what is actually happening in Lebanon and the region.
I ask the question, at the time when Khatami was willing to accept a 2-state solution and when Syria was on the verge of reaching a deal with Israel, what would HA have done then? It would have been structurally impossible for it to pursue what it once wished for.
Similarly, again I ask, if the Islamic Republic were to fall, for whatever reason, would HA simply pack up and leave? Even if it remains intact, what is there to suggest Iran even harbours serious political ambitions to impose velayet-e faqih on the entirety of the Muslim world? If anything, it is in Iran’s interest to underplay such sectarian rhetoric to support its pursuit of influence in the Arab world.
The rules of the game have changed, HA has realized it and recognizes Lebanon in the following terms (from its manifesto):
لبـــــــــنان
أولاً : الوطــن
إنّ لبنان هو وطننا ووطن الآباء والأجداد، كما هو وطن الأبناء والأحفاد وكل الأجيال الآتية، وهو الوطن الذي قدّمنا من أجل سيادته وعزته وكرامته وتحرير أرضه أغلى التضحيات وأعزّ الشهداء. هذا الوطن نريده لكل اللبنانيين على حد سواء، يحتضنهم ويتسع لهم ويشمخ بهم وبعطاءاتهم.
ونريده واحداً موحَّداً، أرضاً وشعباً ودولةً ومؤسسات، ونرفض أي شكل من أشكال التقسيم أو “الفدرلة” الصريحة أو المقنَّعة. ونريده سيداً حراً مستقلاً عزيزاً كريماً منيعاً قوياً قادراً، حاضراً في معادلات المنطقة، ومساهماً أساسياً في صنع الحاضر والمستقبل كما كان حاضراً دائماً في صنع التاريخ.
You may say but its leaders still wish for what Nasrallah said in the 80s (and must the new generations of cadres necessarily adopt the same positions?), but let us add to that the ideal Lebanons (no less worrying than HA’s) of the Hariri, Gemayel, Al-Saud, Al-Asad, Netanyahu, Cheyney etc. families and we begin to such dreams don’t take centre stage in the world of politics.
Cheers!
October 31, 2010 at 3:23 pm
Prophet,
Abuses , by definition, need to be condemned. The originator of the abuse is not material.
If the STL has overstepped its jurisdiction then yes one has many judicial recourses to check such abuse if it has taken place.
I must clarify , though, something in your post. The STL was not set up by the UNSC. It was the Lebanese cabinet that requested such assisstance initially in the form of an investigation committee and then , when the cabinet decided that the Lebanese judicial system was not ready to act independently on this issue. Ifyou are asking me whether the cabinet had the right to ask for such assisstance my answer would be in the affirmative unless there are some regulations that I am not aware of that would have rendered such a decision illegal.
I suspect that there was no illegality involved in this case otherwise the opposition would have raised this issue a long time ago. Anyway, the STL has become , after the request and the blessings of the official Lebanese government, a fait accompli. It is an official international judiciary body that was given the jurisdiction to investigate the assassination of former PM Hariri guided by Lebanese law.
I have never heard the allegation that they have requested info on 1 million individuals before. That sounds absurd but the sheer number does not make it illegal. If the Lebanese judiciary approves of these moves then I have no choice but to accept them , provided they are the law of the land. As for the constant reminder that allof this information is shared with Israel. , no one has ever given any proof. Why would the STL pass on privileged info to Mosad? Is Bellmare a rabid Zionist and is the same true of all the judges? Who is passing along this info and how do we know that it is passed along? If it is then it is wrong but I cannot help but believe that this is set up as a boogieman since ; according to some;everything that ever happens is a result of an Israeli conspiracy.
Hezbollah is scared, and is sure acting like it. The recent incident is a good example. The STL and the doctor claim that this was not about medical records but about some other information, I suspect cell numbers. But Hezbollah organized a demonstration that bordered onbeing a mob and claimed that the investigators were looking for the records of 7000 patients. I find that difficult to believe. To start with the STL denied it and then I doubt whether a single doctor has records for 7000 patients.If she sees five new patients a day then she would need up to 7 years to see so many patients. It is an exaggeration pure and simple.
The STL is an indication that Lebanon has failed to establish itself as a sovereign state ever since independence and no abuses whether they originate dfrom the STL or any other organization should ever be tolerated.
October 31, 2010 at 3:36 pm
# 148
anonymous,
I think this is the first time I read of “tears of snakes.” I’m more familiar with the expression “crocodile tears.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crocodile_tears
Were you translating word-for-word from another language, maybe, where the former expression is the one used?
Linguistically and culturally curious…
October 31, 2010 at 3:37 pm
Anon
Though you attended an argument you were not invited to, I was asking Ghassan some specific questions that you could have answered to justify your comment, instead of asking another question.
As for Your question of whether HNA surrendered the sovereignty of Lebanon to Iran, You may want to ask him . I do not speak on his behalf. However, I will say this; If HA or any party ( they all do)surrendered Lebanese sovereignty to a foreign country, The government should not .
October 31, 2010 at 4:10 pm
Badr,
Certainly not all. just those who defend dictators and terrorists.
October 31, 2010 at 4:21 pm
Prophet #151,
Governments have the right to seek military, judicial as well as other forms of aid from other governments and world bodies when they see it fit for the interests of the country. This is not the first time it happens. Chamoun asked for military help from the US in 1958 and the marines landed on Lebanese coast. Franjieh asked for Syrian help in 1976 and the ill-fated 30 years military occupation followed as a result.
Lebanon did not have the ability to investigate the horrible crimes post 2005 due to well known powers that hijacked the central authority and the infiltration of the security apparatus by agents of Iran and Syria. The STL became a necessity as a result. A sizeable portion of Lebanese population felt and still feels rightly that justice cannot be meted through present Lebanese judicial system.
Organizations and individuals who hijack the authority of the government and serve foreign agendas are technically dissenters and in reality are outlaws. When the Lebanese come to unanimity agreement on this issue, then you may be able to realize your dream of a functioning, sovereign and trusted judicial system in Lebanon. Until then, the STL is a blessing for Lebanon.
HP,
I knew someone will make similar comment like yours. You’re right. That was curious as you said.
October 31, 2010 at 4:35 pm
anonymous,
1. If you seriously believe what you said in your comment no. 140, I have nothing further to discuss with you.
2. Please don’t make a baseless assumption about my affiliation and support.
What I meant to convey to you is the following. Assuming members of Hizbullah are going to be indicted, how could you be so confident that they are going to be handed over to face trial, while a snatched briefcase belonging to the STL cannot be recovered.
October 31, 2010 at 4:52 pm
Ghassan,149.
Thank you.
True that the Lebanese government requested assistance in investigating the murder of Hariri. But it is also true that the Lebanese government didn’t follow constitutional procedures when it signed an agreement wit the UN.
As you know, all agreements have to be negotiated by the head of the state, and then ratified by the parliament. None of those procedures was followed.
As questionable as some may have thought, the election of president Lahoud was legal, though the procedure was imposed by Syria (as the case for every president elected in Lebanon), and Lebanese MP did vote him in, just like they approved a second term to president Hurawi.
The president never approved this agreement, nor did the government bother get his opinion.
The parliament was not involved, nor did it have a chance to ratify this agreement. One can argue that the head of the parliament had shut down the parliament at the time, but does that mean the government signs agreement regardless?
My argument here is that the law has to be followed, even if we don’t like them.
As for the abuse of the STL and the demands they have been requesting, I’ll refer you to the ALAKHABR (though it is an opposition Paper) Article, published Oct 29.
Until We hear denial from Minster Baroud or Minster Nahass, we’d have to assume the story is valid. (If Baroud’s name was not inserted in this story, I may not have given it much validity)
http://www.al-akhbar.com/ar/node/212672
If you think this is the law of the land, to allow such demands, then I ‘d imagine that you’d think it was the law of the land that requires the government to ratify an agreement in the parliament ,and have the president of the land negotiate such agreement.
I made it clear that I was not getting into the conspiracy theory that all information is being shared with Israel , since I had no proof .As for the reference to this, it is the talk of town .
As for the doctor involved in this incident, I agree she could not have had 7000 patients. But I don’t think that the investigators ,at this stage of their inquiry, still need to go to a clinic to get some cell phone numbers. I suspect that it was a test of HA’s reaction and/or cooperation on the eve of the indictment.
I will agree with you that “The STL is an indication that Lebanon has failed to establish itself as a sovereign state ever since independence”. But does that mean we’re back to colonial time? Does that mean that Under chapter7 of the UN charter, Every lebanese will surrender his/her rights and privacy? Is this the new law of the land?
October 31, 2010 at 5:02 pm
The mightiest and richest nation on earth has bankrupted itself following 9/11 to what avail again ?
October 31, 2010 at 5:07 pm
Truth and Justice … right ??
October 31, 2010 at 5:29 pm
anonymous,
#153
My response to Ghassan(#155) pretty much responds to most of your points.
Though you and I may not agree much on this issue, I respect that anyway.
I’m just afraid , the ramafications of surrendering our responsibilities and soverignty are much more dangerous than most people suspect.
At a time we need to strengthen the institutions ,I think we’re heading to a period of instability that might prevent lebanon from ever building a soverign state.
October 31, 2010 at 5:35 pm
Prophet,
It is clear that we are in agreement regarding the importance of applying the law of the land despite our personal feelings towards such law. I might not like a speed limit but yet I am obliged to follow it.
Did the Lebanese government submit a legal request to the UNSC or not? I am afraid that I cannot give you a detailed answer since I am not a Lebanese lawyer. I am not evading the question but I simply do not know whther such a request does require the signature of the president or whether it is part of the powers given to the executive. But from the internatonal law point of view I am not so sure that the blemishes on the legality of the Lebanese request, even if they did occur, are sufficient to derail the STL. It has become international law that all countries are obliged to accept. As you have heard me say many times my personal research reveals that the only Chapter 7 that has not ben fulfilled; in the history of the UN; besides the ongoing 1559 is that dealing with Kashmir. I guess that it looks that the proper Lebanese request in this case is nice to have but it is neither sufficient nor necessary. This is a fact that we have to deal with.
I honestly believe that this much discussion about an already approved investigation would not have arisen in any “mature” society. The judiciary investigate, they issue a ruling, the accused has the right to a vigourou defence since all are assumed innocent until proven guilty. In this case all the talk about making a deal is a reflection of an undemocratic mind set. Judiciary are supposed to be independent, honest and objective. No one can buy a decision or influence it . A decision of a lower court maybe appealed to a higher one. This means that the efforts by saudi Arabia, Syria, Hezbollah and even Sa’ad Hariri are theoretically futile. The train has left the station and indictments in addition to trials will be held. We in Lebanon always have the choice of either enforcing the law or not. Our compliance is a completely different issue and will be a reflection on our respect for the rule of law..
BTW, I still stand by my position that if the indictments are what they are rumormed to be and if the case is strong( it must be in order to justify the Hezbollah reaction) the Hezbollah will find it difficult not to be damaged by this case. The damage could prove to be fatal especially to the military wing of the organization which will weaken the political influence. If all that is to pass then I hope that Lebanon will take advatage of the window of opportunity to have a velvet revolution of sorts. We need to get rid of all the “rascals” on both sides. Those that have been part of the problem for over sixty years cannot be part of the solution.
October 31, 2010 at 5:40 pm
PeterinDubaisays
“The mightiest and richest nation on earth has bankrupted itself following 9/11 to what avail again ?”
You must have a very novel and unique explanation of the economic meltdown. What does 9/11 have to do with securitization, using homes as ATM machines, high energy prices, the rise of the BRIC countries, the elimination of the glass steagall act , an ownership society and on and on and on…
October 31, 2010 at 5:40 pm
anonymous @153, I had suspected the origin but now reading carefully your post I’m pretty sure I know; I have esteemed colleagues from what I guess is your heritage and the placement or lack thereof of articles is a unique signature, along with the order of adjectives, etc. — Приветствия
October 31, 2010 at 5:40 pm
G.W. Bush and company have to be brought before justice for invading Iraq and the murder of tens of thousands of Iraqi soldiers and civilian. What exactly justified their reasoning for it again ?
Bashar and Hassan are sorry for having had the wrong intel on Hariri as well. Ooops. You know.
October 31, 2010 at 5:51 pm
Prophet,
I have never been a fan of President Lahoud but as you said he was elected legally and so I have no complaints in that regard. I do however, and it seems that I am the only person in the world to care about this; believe that our current President’s election was clearly unconstitutional and thus is illegal and should be considered null and void. i will be willing to bring a case , if the Lebanese law allows it, agisnst Mr. Suleiman had there been such a thing as independent judiciary in Lebanon.
October 31, 2010 at 5:54 pm
Ghassan,
What did 9/11 have to do with Iraq again?
How can an individual with apparent serious health problems requiring modern medical aid, with a $50 million bounty of his head dead or alive, plus well over a billion dollars spent on capturing his ass … nine years on … remain elusive ?
October 31, 2010 at 6:09 pm
PeterinDubai,
Your initial post , which I responded to, was making a strong claim that 9/11 led to the bankruptcy of the US. That is hogwash.
If what you meant to say but somehow did not until later on , that you would like Bush to stand trial then this is a completely different matter that is not related to a non existent bankruptcy. Peter, what is the safe haven currency up until this moment all over the world?
October 31, 2010 at 6:13 pm
Gold
October 31, 2010 at 6:15 pm
And the good human being
October 31, 2010 at 6:21 pm
By that I mean a person that seeks truth first and accepts justice.
October 31, 2010 at 6:24 pm
Sorry pet, gold is not a currency on this planet?
October 31, 2010 at 6:35 pm
Most certainly not on yours, Gus.
But it was on my planet before the US decided to de-peg their currency off Gold and on Oil instead.
But what do I really know ? And what do we really know what matters to the world’s money masters.
You see, Gus, the more you have of it, the more important it becomes on what you have to do to maintain its value.
October 31, 2010 at 6:46 pm
PeterinDubai,
I am not aware of many people who feel sorry about the demise of Bretton Woods.
October 31, 2010 at 6:48 pm
AA again, on Iran and Arab countries
And the thought that Nasrallah sold out Lebanon to Iran is a joke. More rational to say the weakling Hariri (Nasrallah is not weak) is bowing to the Saudi scum.
Ghassan Karam “You must have a very novel and unique explanation of the economic meltdown. What does 9/11 have to do with securitization, using homes as ATM machines, high energy prices, the rise of the BRIC countries, the elimination of the glass steagall act , an ownership society and on and on and on…”
You really have no idea how the US was run under Bush, do you?
His motto was simple: “Cut Taxes and Spend.” You can figure out the rest yourself.
Lebanon is dominated by a culture of corrupt moralizing children. I have to say, the people who obsess about who killed Hariri are about as stupid as the the people who killed him. Unless the killers were just trying to blow up the middle east.
FLC: Feltman to Jumblatt: “We don’t care if chaos leads to Hariri’s fall, nor if the army disintegrates … as long as the ‘tribunal’ survives”
With friends like this you don’t need Nasrallah.
And no, Bush is never going to be indicted any more than Clinton or Obama are.
October 31, 2010 at 6:49 pm
What is a Palestinian pound or a Syrian or Lebanese Lira ?
What is a Gulf Riyal or Dirham ?
What differentiates the US Dollar or the Euro to the Yen, the Chinese Yuan or the Australian Dollar?
Marketing ?
October 31, 2010 at 6:55 pm
QN must be pulling his hair, whatever he has left of it anyways
. He posts about “Clinicgate: Foucaldian Logic” and the commentary is about gold. Welcome to the world of parenthood QN. Your daughters are still young but soon enough they will disown you:-) If you are having any second thoughts about QN , the blog, it helps to be reminded of what Gibran had to say about the subject: “Your Children are not your children…..they are with you but they belong not to you”.
Its fascinating isn’t it? No matter what the thread is, readers follow it for the first 20-20 comments only and then they do whatever the hell they want:-)
October 31, 2010 at 7:10 pm
Gus,
It’s the Shekel that will save humanity.
October 31, 2010 at 7:14 pm
GK @174, it’s inevitable; it’s a law of nature; second law of thermodynamics; entropy always increases
and for the uninitiated, entropy = degree of disorder (or chaos)
October 31, 2010 at 7:25 pm
HP
My whole environmental vision is anchored on the second law. I must admit though that there is one issue that I am not totally convinced of. Is the planet an open system or is it a closed one and ir it is an open system is there an upper limit on how open it is and thus it can be thought of as a closed system?
October 31, 2010 at 8:31 pm
GK, if I knew the answer and I could prove it I’d win the next Nobel Prize
It does seem like a neverending quest for humans to understand the mysteries of the universe. While some hope of good progress does exist from the new LHC accelerator in CERN, it’s likely to be more in the direction of “the more we know, the more we know we don’t know.”
Cheers!
October 31, 2010 at 9:32 pm
Ghassan, #164,160
I won’t dwell on your 160 post , I think we both know where we stand on this issue,and that we may not be in total agreement on everything. I’m sure we’ll revisit this subject again as it will be a hot topic for a long time.
I finally agreed with an entire comment (164) of yours.
When ever I raise the question of the constitutionality of President Sleiman, I run into brick walls with people. lol
Though I have no opinion of the guy non whatsoever, except that He was brought in to manage a situation. He irritates the hell out of me when He tries to please everyone. But it seems that soon He won’t be able to please them all. Even a whore has her/his limitations, LOL
October 31, 2010 at 9:51 pm
AIG,
Tayyar.com, Al Manar, a Kuwaiti newspaper in addition to a Palestinian journalist and I am sure many others are carrying a detailed speech allegedly given by Amos Yadlin as he was about to leave his post as chief of Aman. All the reports are practically copies of each other but there is no attribution besides the fact that this was widely circulated among Western diplomats. the speech speakes in details about Mughanieh, the telecommunication network in Lebanon, mentions the STL, Hariri assassination , covert activities in Iran … Do you know anything about this.? I have not been able to find any reference to it. If this is true I am surprised, actually shocked that it is not a huge story. Has the Israeli press reported anything about a detailed farewell speech by Yadlin in which he discusses everything from the Sudan to Iran?
November 1, 2010 at 12:37 am
GK,
There are reports about Yadlin farewell speeches but they didn’t seem to include earth shattering info. What new info is in the speech according to the Arab sources?
November 1, 2010 at 12:42 am
HP,
I am Jew and I tell you that the Jews are a nation. Not only that, I explain it to you in great detail, several times. Furthermore there are millions of Jews in Israel who think like me, in fact almost all of the Jews here, and many more millions in the diaspora. Yet, for you this is hogwash. Who is then the extremist? Do you really think you know better than millions of Jews who and what they are, or do you think we are a collective of liars?
November 1, 2010 at 12:59 am
HP,
And just as a matter of clarification. Norman has clearly stated that he supports the Asad regime in Syria. Is he an extremist according to you?
November 1, 2010 at 1:28 am
AIG,
The following are the highlights of what Amos Yardlin allegedly said in his farewell speech at Aman:
Israel killed Moughaniehin Damascushelped by its networks in Lebanon, Palestine, Iraq and Iran.
Most of the spying network in Lebanon is back in operation. Israel is in full control of the telecommunication network in Lebanon.
Israel has resupplied some members of former militias in Lebanon and that these groups , under Israeli control, have conducted assassinations in Lebanon.
In Iran Israel has conducted successfully assassinations of nuclear scientists as well as government officials and has penetrated the nuclear program to its highest levels.
Israel has supplied the separtists in Sudan and has also provided training for them.
The Israeli spy network has been advanced considerably in Libya, Tunis and Morocco.
Egypt has been infiltrated at all levels and in all areas. Economic, social, politicaland military. Israel has also encouraged sectarian strife.
Hamas must be finished since it posses danger.
Israel salutes Mubarak and Abbas every day for their contributions towards the stability of Israel.
(The above is a quick and rough translation of the highlights in the Arabic language
reports)
November 1, 2010 at 2:08 am
Upthread @ 150, GK logically observes:
“I doubt whether a single doctor has records for 7000 patients.”
Ka_ching
Agreed, which is why the report that the number of MDs asked for records was 4, not !, makes more sense if the 7000 figure represents a total patient load being split four ways.
Phone numbers as the targeted data , particularly if the rumors of a massive sweep are fact-based, is the only plausible scenario. Wouldn’t a cache of that quantity (millions? source?) have to include non-HA telecoms?
This is data mining.
HA’s networks have been targeted in the past which suggests their communications security has not been penetrated through electronic or other means. Thus far.
Operation OB/GYN could have been conceived as a backdoor of sorts.
My speculation is that HA’s target was indeed, the laptop/briefcase, that they were familiar with the STL modus operandi and planned accordingly.The melee within and without the clinic provided confusion and cover.
If HA has captured previously collected data, they could be sorely tempted to do a wikileaks show-and-tell document dump.
November 1, 2010 at 3:00 am
AIG, I fully understand your explanation of Jewishness. If you read carefully my comments above I was referring to the “extreme Zionists” and not to you. By that I mean those who do believe in the religious foundation and intrinsic element of Jewishness, for example some of the settlers. I was comparing them – and the degree to which they influence and color official decisions in Israel – to the HA’s and the Hamas’s of the Arab world. They are all zealots who are driven by religious faith, the kind that in history has led to so many tragic conflicts and war.
Just like as I do not characterize you in this manner, I do not characterize Norman in this manner. I may have disagreements with both but I do not think that you are driven by faith but by logic and circumstance analysis.
I do not really have fundamental disagreements with you in terms of the pragmatic solution that can lead to peace in the region, or at least to peace in the Israeli-Arab conflict. Perhaps the greatest difference is in the approach to use and the degree of the necessary conditions to ensure the viability of that peace. Analyzing the past may likely unveil many differences but, as has been my experience in earlier discussions, more points of agreement on facts than disagreement.
I appreciate your reaction to the statement in which I use the word “hogwash,” in a post that did not elaborate further, perhaps, on which part of hogwash. Maybe this post clarifies it.
I do find that you adopt sometimes a rather condescending tone in “explaining to me” and then at some point in recognizing that now “I am getting it better and starting to stand up to …” I do not resent those statements of yours partly because, with age, comes wisdom and forgiveness. However, I certainly note that tone and infer what it says about your personality and the inflexibility in thinking that your opinions are the inalienable truth.
Respect.
Shalom.
November 1, 2010 at 3:48 am
HP#179
I once heard a professor of Theory of Knowledge explain that human knowledge grew like a wave produced by a stone thrown into the water : the circle of knowledge grows in a circle that “bites” the field of ignorance. As the circumference grows, so does the number of points that contact with the field of ignorance. The more we know, the more we “see” how much we don’t know. Or as you put it, “the more we know, the more we know we don’t know.”
November 1, 2010 at 5:51 am
I was only gone for 2 days !!! I tried my best to read all from 50 something, but have to admit I skipped a few.
@HP 80, No I will not leave again and I do not foresee a bright future for both my son and I anytime soon. But I also cannot give up. My major fear is that one day might come will I will see my son with a riffle in his hand.
@Danny 84 : Hassan did change somewhat the Hizb’s manifesto, if recall properly sometime this year, but the changes are nothing but plastic surgery.
@G.K 164 : My sentiments too, and when he got elected I was shouting out loud not only the illegal aspect, but the deep doubts I had towards his capabilities to get the country out of the trouble its in.
November 1, 2010 at 6:28 am
Hizbollah’s original manifesto
http://forabetterlebanon.wordpress.com/2008/02/15/hizbollahs-manifesto-a-quick-reminder-for-orange-readers/
Analysis of the 2009 revision:
http://www.inss.org.il/upload/%28FILE%291267609505.pdf
November 1, 2010 at 8:00 am
Hi,
I’m new around here. I love a good romp through matters STL, so I couldn’t help my self on this thread.
To return to the original topic of the thread, wouldn’t any critical theorist worth their salt admonish Nasrallah for inscribing the honor, integrity and sovereignty of the community on the bodies of women: “The honor of our women has been violated!” In some responses I came across elsewhere the emotional impact of this claim was evident. So the opposition can mount a postcolonialist argument. But the counter-punch is feminist.
So then we have Rami al-Khouri’s stand-off: “Human rights violators!” cry the colonialists. “Violators of sovereignty!” cry the colonized. Which to choose: arguments based on sovereignty? Or arguments based on human rights? While both of them are much battered and abused by self-interest, I lean towards the latter.
November 1, 2010 at 8:37 am
Jonathan, you sure are a “critical theorist.” Can you explain for the poor modest layman what is that you were actually saying in your conclusion, perhaps in more mundane practical terms?
November 1, 2010 at 9:38 am
HP,
For a person that has taken for himself the right to give grades and compliments to others posts I find your discussion about condescension, wisdom, forgiveness and aging quite amusing.
November 1, 2010 at 9:43 am
You never learn, AIG, but persist in always proving the characterization of an attitude you take by another sarcastic post.
November 1, 2010 at 10:01 am
HP,
How can a person that supports a dictatorship not be an extremist??? If someone suggested a dictator for the US, would he be an extremist on your eyes? If yes, why is the case of Syria different?
November 1, 2010 at 10:06 am
HP,
My post was not sarcastic. It was factual. In Hebrew we have a saying that literally translates to “attitude begets attitude”. I suggest you get off your high horse.
November 1, 2010 at 10:29 am
AIG, yes, dictatorship is wrong and history has proven that dictatorships, sooner or later, leads to its own downfall.
Supporters of dictatorship are extremists in some sense, because they espouse/support an unfair and inequitable (to say the least) form of government.
I do not know Norman well enough to characterize him as an extremist. He and I share some heritage, some fond memories of places past in our respective countries, and frankly I have not studied his writings to a point where I can pass such judgment. He often makes logical points and, to my knowledge, is not a political activist. I cannot, just to please you, characterize him as an extremist. When there are fanatics in HA and Hamas who really cause destruction, how can you imply that someone like Norman is an extremist?
Similarly, I have not characterized you as an extremist either, in the way many of us, including me, look at a fraction of the settlers who clearly behave in ways that demonstrate their extremism.
If you go back in memory or in searching the posts here and on SyriaComment, you may remember the thoughts I’ve had about Syria and its government. My main issues were with how Syria has handled its relations with Lebanon.
As far as the Syrian government dealing with its own country and people, I’m not enough of an expert to argue with others, although I have lamented the techniques used in some situations (like the Hama tragedy/massacre). There are some who argue of the need for a lesser evil in Syria driving their support for the regime. There are those who argue that there is no alternative choice and that the Assads have and continue to do the best they can.
Then, there are folks like you who have a predilection for allowing the evolution of Syria to be determined by complete freedom which, you anticipate (I think), partly from external support to some factions, to lead to a fundamentalist Islamic Brotherhood control there, which would then lead to a major war with Israel, which would definitively deal a defeat to Syria (and probably a permanent annexation of the Golan and elimination of any Syrian threat to Israel).
I have no position on any of the above because, as in so many things in the Middle East, even the experts are confounded and I don’t have all the facts. The various scenarios I painted are from the news and the posts/commentaries and so are meant as possible positions by others.
Finally, I do know well about “attitude begets attitude” which is derived from “an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.”
I do not subscribe to this principle but I let my belief in God and my principles of social harmony and civility guide my behavior, including on this blog.
As far as what you call “the right to give grades and compliments to others posts” that you say I have “taken for [myself]” I frankly don’t see how agreeing with a post, or complimenting its author, or firmly objecting to certain rare posts that use profanities has anything to do with “condescension, wisdom, forgiveness and aging.”
Once again, I find that you pick fights, AIG, in the wrong places. You seem almost obsessed with lecturing me and explaining to me and then, when real extremists post, you simply say “yeah we’ve heard this for 60 years and look where you are,” without further engagement. I don’t know what you think you are gaining in engaging with me the way you do, but hey, maybe there is something. After all, as I said I don’t know everything.
As always, Peace and Shalom.
November 1, 2010 at 10:33 am
… and I have not engaged in the equestrian sport so my horse is neither high or low; I have no horse. — (wisdom advises of the benefits of humor)
November 1, 2010 at 10:35 am
GK,
The Israeli press has not reported what the Arab press has. It looks like pure propaganda to me. For example Yadlin would never say in any forum that Israel has encouraged sectarian strife in Egypt even if it were true which obviously its not. Why would Israel want to hasten Mubarak’s demise?
So the explanation on why this has not made news elsewhere is because it is fabricated.
November 1, 2010 at 10:50 am
HP,
Ok, let’s put the question another way:
Are Norman’s views about dictatorship in Syria extreme views?
If you don’t understand the difference between agreeing and disagreeing with someone and grading someone and giving compliments, then indeed my comment was not informative to you.
“Attitude begets attitude” does not relate to an “eye for an eye”. By the way, I see that you do not know the rabbinical interpretation of this which is that compensation should be proportionate to the hurt. For example you don’t kill someone because he took out your eye. The rabbis also explained that the compensation is made by money or goods and not by taking out someone’s eye. You have a very fundamentalist view of the Old Testament which is not how Judaism interprets the bible at all. The people that hold your view are called Karaim and have been frowned upon by Jewish society.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karaite_Judaism
I would like to also bring to your attention that much of European antisemitism had at its base wrongheaded and misguided interpretation of the bible and talmud. I would suggest learning from history. In many areas you feign not knowing enough, yet when it comes to Judaism and Israeli security you are suddenly an expert.
November 1, 2010 at 11:10 am
AIG, thank you for the information about the rabbinical interpretation of “an eye for an eye.” I find it informative.
Now, now. That was a compliment. Am I allowed it or is it being judgmental?
Also, please note that I did not interpret “an eye for an eye,” but only stated it and stated that I don’t subscribe to it. You cannot make a logical inference, as I think you do, that I subscribe to the Karaim interpretation. It is instructive to learn about this, though, and thank you again.
It is an interesting point that much of European antisemitism “had at its base wrongheaded and misguided interpretation of the bible and talmud.” I do think there was more to it, though, as I learned from the excellent book by “Why The Jews? The Reason for Antisemitism” by Dennis Prager.
Amazon.com: Why The Jews? The Reason for Antisemitism (9780671556242): Dennis Prager: Books
Besides all the explanations and points he makes in the book, I also think that there was an element of envy and competition (sensing that they were potential competitors in many respects) in the abject philosophy that led the Nazi movement.
Permit me to pass on the first question because to be fair in answering it I’ll have to go back to Norman’s posts and then maybe engage with him on some Q&A to then be in a position to have a well-based opinion on your question. Then again, as I mentioned before, I’m not too interested in this subject – not because it is not important – but because to me, it is overshadowed by the more important impact of the Syrian-Lebanese relationship (positive or negative) along with the unknown expectation from a regime change in Syria that, among other scenario, could be a change towards religious fundamentalism. I’m not evading the question. I’m just telling you truthfully that I don’t consider myself qualified to voice opinions without being on solid grounds on the facts. Remember that I am using as criterion for extremism, the kind practiced overtly by Hamas and in a more nuanced (and sadly effective) way by HA.
November 1, 2010 at 11:33 am
HP,
“I find it informative” is not a compliment. It is a fact about you and not about me. Just as if you would have written “I already knew this information” is not a derision of me. And in any case I wrote it to make a point but I am glad that you have acquired knowledge that you may think it useful, but that was not the aim of my post.
That you are not interested in Norman’s attitude to democracy is in my opinion the crux of the matter. Because if you don’t care about it, you will do nothing to change it, and there you have the whole Arab problem in a nutshell. Let’s see how many demonstrations there are in the Arab world to protest what has happened in the church in Iraq.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/02/world/middleeast/02iraq.html?ref=global-home
My bet is zero, but I really hope I am mistaken. What is your bet? (please, no more swamps, alligators, eye balls or snakes. Excuses for inaction there are plenty)
How about a demonstration by Christian Arabs in the diaspora? Didn’t think so.
November 1, 2010 at 12:09 pm
Sorry, AIG, I am not a political activist.
I’ve already been tagged by some with extreme views here as a closet Zionist. Nor am I a defender of Arab causes, or consider myself Arab. I have views quite similar to Marillionlb so you can browse her blog where I agree with almost everything she writes. I have lamented the treatment of Palestinians in 1948 and other misery that has befallen this people. I have no use for those of them who engage in or believe in terrorism and think that much trouble and tragedy could have been avoided by a different approach to the crisis. This is all history now and the only thing I really care about are the friends and distant family that remain in Lebanon and who deserve more than the sorry state the country is in.
I don’t quite get the implication of the horrible church incident in Iraq? Just like terrorists exploded bombs in Tel-Aviv cafes and on board buses, they managed to cause a bloody incident in the church in Iraq, and the authorities dealt with it in a unfortunate manner that caused the deaths of most of the hostages. One can perhaps fault the Iraqi government for not having been more successful in preserving the life of the hostages, but then, incidents like this have happened in the past. Remember the Israeli athletes in Munich?
So, I do expect and hope that there condemnation of the terrorists and their actions in Iraq as in any other terrorist incident. I don’t believe at all you’ll see demonstrations in the Arab world. I’m not sure what the implication of that is. Christian Arabs in the diaspora are often afraid and just wanting to assimilate in whichever country they are in. This is true of many if not most Christian Lebanese in the diaspora.
November 1, 2010 at 12:22 pm
And, um, I find that if someone offers information and I find helpful, and I tell him “thank you, that was informative,” I am, besides thanking him, reflecting the fact that this is a person who provides others with useful information. A person who does that is a helpful person. Being told you are a helpful person, is, in my book, a compliment.
November 1, 2010 at 12:40 pm
HP,
Who are the Christian Arabs in the diaspora afraid of? Why are they afraid?
November 1, 2010 at 1:12 pm
AIG, I can’t speak for everyone but in some (many?) cases, folks have family back home and in countries where regime intelligence services monitor citizens’ actions closely and “frown” upon dissent there is a fear – perhaps it’s a phobia – of retaliation against loved ones. The fact is that some folks who have been outspoken have received death threats. In other (also many?) cases, people just want a better life for themselves and their children and, once they leave, they don’t want to turn back and want to stay as far from the morass that is the Middle East as possible.
November 1, 2010 at 1:16 pm
AIG #199
I happen to think also that the Arabic version is a total fabrication or at the least someone took a few ideas and expanded on them. That explains why there was no source given.
I have already confronted a Washington based journalist about this and I would also like to ask both Al Manar , Tayyar … for a correction and or retraction but would love to put my hands on a detailed Israeli account of what the speech was about. Can you help?
November 1, 2010 at 1:16 pm
… and it need not be regime intelligence services. Activists who believe in terrorism (like the perpetrators of the church tragedy in Iraq) are often more brutal with folks who are Arabs or of Arab origins than with whom their consider their enemies.
Let me put it in the following way which perhaps will resonate with you. Those folks want to be as far away from that morass as the folks in Israel want to isolate themselves from a growing non-allegiant Arab population that might cause trouble to the Jewish state in the future. Just like Israel isolates and protects itself with the wall, similarly, some folks in the diaspora build their own psychological wall to protect themselves and their families.
You probably won’t, but if you chose to call this cowardice, be my guest. I won’t comment on such an epithet with which I would obviously disagree.
November 1, 2010 at 1:18 pm
… and if you haven’t read it, I do strongly recommend the book I mentioned in #201. If nothing else, it will give you more and I think better ideas for some of the arguments you like to make. The book is very informative, and, with my own experience with a large number of Jewish colleagues and friends in the U.S. I find that it accurately echoes the ethics of such communities and families.
November 1, 2010 at 1:38 pm
What is to be made of this: http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/NewsDesk.nsf/getstory?openform&8C80BFE933CB07F1C22577CE002E39B2
Headline and first paragarph: “Hizbullah Simulation Aims to Hold Grip on Lebanon, Besiege Hariri in Less than 2 Hours.
Hizbullah has reportedly unleashed a simulation of the zero hour aimed at holding both a security and military grip on Lebanon and corner Prime Minister Saad Hariri.
A report published Monday by al-Akhbar newspaper said that prior to Hizbullah chief Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah’s Oct. 28 speech a “main Opposition group was carrying out an electronic, field simulation for the assumed zero hour.” “
November 1, 2010 at 1:40 pm
I see I’ve been gone 2 days and things here are as out of control as always
November 1, 2010 at 1:42 pm
HP,
What I would like to understand is the following. The church incident happens in Iraq, nobody cares. If the same thing were to happen in Israel, i.e. extremists would take over a church with Christian Arabs and the Israeli police would botch their rescue, their would be hundreds of thousands of people in the street in the Arab world and demonstrations by Arabs in the US. What gives?
Let me make this personal, would you be more emotionally outraged if this happened in Israel? Clearly this is the case for many Arabs or people with Arab ancestry.
Let me put it bluntly, do you care about human rights, or only about human rights violated by Jews?
November 1, 2010 at 1:50 pm
dontgetit,
What is happening is a high stakes game of poker, only played with human lives. HA are trying to bluff their way out of the indictments. But they are making mistakes. It is clear for everybody that if they try taking over Lebanon, they will be over reaching and will suffer badly. They need the support of the state and the other sects in Lebanon to survive. A Hezbollah controlled Lebanon will be a nightmare for everyone including the Shia. It will be a pariah state, sanctioned by the US, Europe and probably all the Arab states except Syria.
In short, taking over Lebanon is not an option for Hezbollah and Hariri knows this.
November 1, 2010 at 1:59 pm
dontgetit,
Now Lebanon also answers this question:
http://www.nowlebanon.com/NewsArticleDetails.aspx?ID=212858
November 1, 2010 at 2:15 pm
AIG:
I think you, and the article you just cited, are mistaken, with one caveat. If Hezbollah launches its takeover as described (and I don’t know that they will) it will couple that with an attempt to bring “Israel” into the fray. They will assume, correctly, that hatred of the Zionist Entity is a unifying force and will enable Lebanese to put aside their differences and submit to Hezbollah “leadership” of the resistance. In other words, as long as Hezbollah is able to start a war with “Israel”, it will likely be able to successfully dominate Lebanon. Or at least those Lebanese that the Zionist butchers don’t kill.
The only caveat is that someone in the Lebanese government and the armed forces (the un-infiltrated part) is actually preparing a contingency plan to react to a Hezbollah takeover. I doubt it, though, even after these newspaper articles appeared.
November 1, 2010 at 2:18 pm
AIG, I don’t understand where you’re going with this.
1- I didn’t say “nobody cares”
2- The scenario you paint:
If the same thing were to happen in Israel, i.e. extremists would take over a church with Christian Arabs and the Israeli police would botch their rescue, their would be hundreds of thousands of people in the street in the Arab world and demonstrations by Arabs in the US. What gives?
is rather strange to me. Has something like this happened? And how do you predict the outcome?
If terrorists infiltrate Israel to create some terrorist havoc, are they going to chose a church and Christians as their target? If they do, why would those victimized be any different than any other Israeli, be it Jewish or muslim or druze? I just don’t see your point.
3- about being “emotionally outraged,” as you always steer towards your predilection to make things personal, of course I’m emotionally saddened and outraged by any loss of innocent life no matter whose it is and what religion or nation or tribe they belong to. I gave you above the wanton and cowardly assassination of the Israeli athletes in Munich in 1972. I continue to be outraged about this until now. I remember it. I cited it to you. So, AIG, it is I who wants to ask you: What gives?
3- Of course I care about human rights and human rights violation no matter who perpetrates them, be it the white slave traders in the Arab countries and in southeast Asia, or the subhuman working conditions of some children in China, or the abject poverty leading to starvation of children in Africa, and the list if very very long, and yes, of course it includes any such violation in the Arab world.
I find your insistence here to engage and your rather tangential introduction of new concepts and questions strange and perhaps indicative of a certain agenda, although I can’t figure out quite what it is. I can tell you that all this seem like a futile exercise to me. If indeed, like some claim, you are fulfilling your “CAMERA” mission of thought battles on behalf of Israel, I really find that engaging with me here is quite ineffective for any such mission. As I told you several times before, I’m the wrong person to pick fights with and/or go on with endless back-and-forth. You’d be much more effective arguing with your real enemies.
I think I’m going to end my contribution to this thread here. My only disclaimer — if there any readers left of what must be a boring exchange — is not to take my lack of response any subsequent postings in this thread as acquiescence or agreement.
Have a good rest of the day.
November 1, 2010 at 2:21 pm
dontgetit,
Hezbollah is cornered. This does not that they will not act. On the contrary they want to demonstrate their total power and hegemony over the failed Lebanese state. But to no avail. Hezbollah is intoxicated with its own success and is not in a position to make greater advances. Actually ; and I am repeating myself; Hezbollah will only become weaker as a result of the STL and will look for a solution by finally accepting to merge its forces into the Lebanese army. The political wing will survive but will no longer be as effective.
November 1, 2010 at 2:31 pm
@HP 203: Allow me to correct one tiny mistake, I am a he and not a she.
Marillion is a band I got introduced to in the 80′s and brought me some peace during troubled times (including jail time).
As for my ranting on my page, there are nothing more than therapy to me. No analysis, just a platform to vent my anger towards people on the fast lane towards self destruction. I had the chance to live Lebanon in its hay days and most of the war (up to 84), unfortunately this is my curse.
I still cannot let go, and just like Galahad and Lancelot my quest for the holy grail is not only eternal but will probably be my demise.
Wishing all a nice and peaceful week.
November 1, 2010 at 2:32 pm
HP,
I meant Jewish terrorists taking over a church in Israel, not terrorists from outside.
I have no agenda, just a personal interest. I really want to understand why for example you have no problem about discussing possible peace solutions for Israel/Palestine with me and you have a firm opinion about those while you are reluctant to discuss the Syrian regime with Norman or the fact that much of the terrorism in Iraq is aided and supported by Syria according to US sources.
It is people like you that if they were a little less indifferent could make a difference. But I keep hitting this wall. You prefer changing and discussing Israel instead of changing things close to home.
You say it is not fear, cowardice or Battered Person Syndrome. Is it just plain indifference then?
November 1, 2010 at 2:39 pm
dontgetit,
I disagree. You may recall that Hezbollah did nothing during the Gaza war. Their base has not yet recovered from the 2006 war and they may even lose its support if they start a war with Israel for no good reason. The other sects will demand super excellent reasons for Hezbollah to go to war, and if war erupts without those, they will hold Hezbollah responsible.
So we should expect more Hezbollah induced Lebanese army aggression towards Israel and other indirect provocations, but Israel will not escalate this into a war. Hezbollah is playing high stakes poker with an open hand for all to see. Their attempts at bluffing won’t work.
November 1, 2010 at 2:49 pm
OK, one last post, with my begging forgiveness for so quickly violating my “I think I’m going to end my contribution to this thread here”
Marillionb, deep apologies about my gender assumption which, now that I think about it, had absolutely no basis that I can recall.
AIG,
- terrorism is terrorism regardless of who perpetrates it. I vaguely remember an incident where Jewish extremists did attack some mosque and cause casualties. I can’t conceive of a reason Jewish terrorists would take over a church but if it were to happen and the Israeli police tried to maneuver its way and ended up causing the death of hostages it would be sad and I’m sure there will be an investigation of why the operation wasn’t more successful but I certainly would not fault the police when the real culprits are the terrorists causing the incidents. I still don’t quite see the difference but you’re probably implying that there will be outrage in the Arab world against the way the police approached this. Maybe but if they do that in this case and the same people don’t do the same in the Iraqi case, then it’s inconsistent and wrong.
- as far as my engaging with you about the peace process and not engaging with Syrians about reforming the Syrian regime and how to change it, etc., I would have thought that the explanation is obvious, but maybe it isn’t it.
Permit me to just leave it at that. I am not indifferent, AIG. I just don’t think that in my circumstances I “could make a difference.” You may argue otherwise and I’ll respect that but I will tell you again that you don’t know my circumstances nor the circumstances of “people like [me].”
I hope I can keep to my new pledge now and stop boring readers with my posts in this particular thread.
November 1, 2010 at 3:01 pm
HP #192
Sorry… the last paragraph was a little elliptical to me too when I reread it! What I was attempting to say was that the argument over the STL comes down, in part, to an argument between sovereignty and human rights. In this case of the Dahiyeh clinic, anti-STL people are principally crying foul over sovereignty. Pro-STL people are saying that the right to justice and the rule of law trump claims of sovereignty. Certain members of the Security Council argued as much in the voting session for Security Council Resolution 1757, which formed the STL. Their arguments were that justice trumps sovereignty. By contrast, China, Indonesia, Qatar, Russian Federation, and South Africa all abstained, on the basis that, while they supported the pursuit of justice, they did not support such an infringement of national sovereignty. One side argued justice; the other side argued sovereignty. One side argued for certain universal standards; the other argued for national self-determination.
This is a long way of saying that maybe Khouri has a point in placing this incident within a larger narrative of colonial intervention and nationalist reaction.
November 1, 2010 at 3:14 pm
An observation. The church tragedy in Iraq, discussed here is a symptom. The situation of Christians in the whole Levant is bad. It seems that the Christian world is more concerened with Gaza, where christians are realy pesecuted than which the fate of Christians in Iraq, which to me is beyond understanding. In the USA churches are for Israel and against Israel, some are contributing money to Israel other to the Palestinians but practically nobody is interested in the mass exodos of Christians from the Levant. Or to the systematic terrorizing of Christians in Iraq. When I, as an Israeli, tell people that there are practically more Arameic speaking Christians abroad as in Syria and that this occured in the last twenty years people think that as an Israeli I am telling them lies. What is the reason for that? talking to some arabic speaking Christians in Jerusalem I found that the hate to Israel is stronger than any care about local Christians. can any body explain this in some length in addition to HP 208 which I found enlightning.
November 1, 2010 at 3:30 pm
sneak in…
BV, I announced my retirement from this particular thread. I hand the torch over to you.
Jonathan, thank you, much clearer, and makes sense.
Rani, thank you for reading my comments and reacting in a friendly way to them.
sneak out…
November 1, 2010 at 3:32 pm
HP,
“as far as my engaging with you about the peace process and not engaging with Syrians about reforming the Syrian regime and how to change it, etc., I would have thought that the explanation is obvious, but maybe it isn’t it.”
At least to me this isn’t obvious and your reluctance to spell this out is also unclear to me. What could be better for Lebanon than a truly democratic Syria?
Look, let me try again. You live in a liberal democracy and believe in this kind of regime. Apparently you have a good rapport with Norman, why can’t you make a difference with him? But yet you do not attempt to do this. Norman is not in a swamp. He is in the US.
November 1, 2010 at 3:35 pm
As for war and Hizballa. There is a story of a young devil who was sent to earth for his final exam. He just losened the stick to which a goat was tied. The goat run and ate the bread in the nexst tent, the husband beat his wife and the goat because of the eaten bread; her brother knifed the husband because of the wife,and then the son knifed the brother and then the beaten goat owner set the family tent on fire…and so it goes from tent to family to tribe to nation till we have a world war. And up there in devils haven the great devil ask the young one? what did you do son? and he said “I just losened a stick”. I think most of you know that story. All the very clever talk here about Hizballa this and HA that and why they will do this and not that, as I said very very clever people here, realy not cynically. However, two or three missiles into Naharia, or Kiriat Shmona, perhaps four and all of us in Israel and Lebanon will be living [and dying !! ] in hell. And some body in Syria or Iran will ask: what is it all about?
November 1, 2010 at 3:50 pm
AIG, HP,
Sorry HP. But I am going to have to side with AIG on this one. I understood his comparison to Jewish extremists (think Baruch Goldstein) taking hostages in a Jerusalem church, say, and the fiasco that ensues.
The Arab street would indeed be up in arms about the evil of Zionism, and calling for the extermination of Israel. You know it as well as I do. Arguing to the contrary is disingenuous.
I mean, this same “street” rioted about CARTOONS a few years ago.
The analogy itself, though, is not the point. The point, that I think AIG is alluding to is that we (And by ‘we’, i mean the Arab street in general) seem pretty insensitive to “human rights abuses” (terrorism like the Church, or otherwise) unless it is perpertrated by “the West” or “The Jews”.
We clearly have a double standard when it comes to “human rights abuses” (and other abuses). When its perpetrated by “others”, it’s call for indignation and calls for violence. When it’s perpetrated by “our own” (be it the Arab regimes, or Islamic Terrorists, or whathaveyou) we find excuses, at best, and at worse, we say nothing.
I agreed with AIG about the “battered woman syndrome”, and i think this here is a perfect symptom of just that.
November 1, 2010 at 4:07 pm
AIG:
I only assumed Hezbollah would attack “Israel” after it first asserted control over Lebanon. It would provoke the zionist entity in order to distract the rest of Lebanon and ensure that Hezbollah’s hegemony was unchallenged. Once the guns go off, I really don’t think Hezbollah needs to worry about being unmasked. People are either with the resistance or against it (and traitors will be shot or, at minimum, have their roofs used for missile launches).
November 1, 2010 at 4:14 pm
AIG:
To continue . . . I neglected to say that I do not believe Hizbollah will start another war with “Israel” just to champion the resistance. It would only be to help consolidate their hold on Lebanon.
November 1, 2010 at 4:21 pm
dontgetit,
In my opinion that is even more unlikely. Once Hezbollah controls Lebanon, basically everything in Lebanon is a target and by the end of the war they would be in control of nothing. They would have just trashed Lebanon completely to gain what exactly? And, after the war, they could only count on Syria and Iran to rebuild. How could they replace basic infrastructure such as electricity plants, telecommunications etc.? These can only be purchased from the West or include too many Western components to be exported to Lebanon which will surely be under sanctions. They would have a third world country on their hands with no basic services. Even if they get the money to rebuild, they would not be able to buy what they need. It seems it would be really stupid for them to get into a war after they take over Lebanon.
November 1, 2010 at 4:39 pm
I hope for the sake of the Lebanese that you are correct, though I fear you are not.
November 1, 2010 at 5:12 pm
“Hezbollah will only become weaker as a result of the STL and will look for a solution by finally accepting to merge its forces into the Lebanese army. The political wing will survive but will no longer be as effective.”
That statement is so out of touch with reality and crosses well into the posters well of wishful thinking.
Keep dreaming, GK, keep dreaming.
November 1, 2010 at 5:28 pm
UST,
I know that you might dismiss this as wishful thinking and it might be but my conclusion is not based on ideological biases as much as my vision of reality that is dictated by my understanding of the laws of motion that determine change. I have said this before but a total lasting victory br Hezbollah will contradict my understanding of history.:-) Send me an email in 2015 reminding me of this will you?
November 1, 2010 at 5:28 pm
Mo,
I agree for a change. GK; you can still fantasize especially about HA merging with the LAF.
If HA is weakened militarily; they will lose all leverage politically! Their whole essence is built on mafioso tactics and bullying. One has to listen to Raad & Nasrallah spew out threats to realize how scared they are.
November 1, 2010 at 6:06 pm
Scared people with guns and missiles make other people dead.
November 1, 2010 at 6:30 pm
SHN next step will be interesting.
Will he go so far as to expose the Rafiq Hariri dossier with enough juice to keep the Christians scratching their heads ?
November 1, 2010 at 6:35 pm
Gk,
Ah but the laws of motion are such that the motion will not change its velocity unless an unbalanced force acts upon it; The STL is no more an “unbalanced force” than the lame attempts of m14, the Israeli army and the US arm-twisting. Furthermore, the net force applied to a body produces a proportional acceleration and to every action there is always an equal and opposite reaction.
So change may very well come GK, but much like your beloved Condaleeza’s new Middle East, I do not think it will be the change you want it to be.
Total lasting victory for HA? In what arena do you mean?
But hey, if we both are lucky to live to 2015 I will happily compare winners and losers then.
Which of course brings us to the only law that applies in Lebanon, the Law of Unintended Consequences…:)
Danny, habibi, you haven’t heard any threats yet. This is them being nice.
November 1, 2010 at 6:37 pm
On a lighter note….
Marketing companies all seem to think i’m Israeli;
They keep sending me mail addressed to “The Occupier”……
November 1, 2010 at 7:14 pm
SHN seems to have taken over the character of 3antar in the popular Syrian TV series that aired in Lebanon in the mid 70′s.
November 1, 2010 at 10:21 pm
Sensational reporting by al-Akhbar cannot be taken seriously for obvious reasons. But there is a specific message behind the story for the politicians ahead of the next Government meeting.
Hezbollah is losing nerves by the hour, especially when leaks are reported about dates of indictments. It (Hezbollah) wants, so impatiently, to enforce its agenda of so-called ‘false witnesses’ on the government next meeting on Wednesday. That is all there is to al-Akhbar story – typical political Lebanese posturing designed to achieve specific objective.
Will Hezbollah attempt a takeover of Lebanon? No, and it doesn’t not have the capabilities for undertaking such take over. It will take over areas currently under its control, and will prevent the government from exercising authority over those areas, which is more or less the case at the moment. It will not even attempt to challenge the UNIFIL in the South because it will put itself in direct confrontation with the World as well as Israel.
I pity those who are arguing about Hezbollah perceived invincible prowess and its so-called successes. Hezbollah is a paper tiger. It needs UNIFIl in order to keep its constituents in their villages in the south and to prevent Israeli incursions into those areas again. One must keep in mind that Hizbi constituents would still be living in refugee camps (perhaps 500000 to 800000 souls practically 90% of the Shia community) had it not been for the admission of UNIFIL and the Lebanese army into the South.
So, Please give me a break Hizbi sympathizers. Wake up and ponder over the foolishness of the plots and actions of your short-sighted ‘idol’.
November 2, 2010 at 4:14 am
Just an opinion: AIG 230 You are so good at describing Lebanon after a war. It look to me that you know at least as much about Israel as about Lebanon, can you please tell me what will Israel look like? I have written it here already. A sign on a car: “It is cats day today – be nice to cats kick dogs”. Not that I, as an Israeli, can do or want to do something real, physical, about Lebanon except damage and then more and more damage. I will do it, I did it, my old son did it and so the young one. If need be I and they will make it again and again, to the best of our ability, remember the fate of the Jews of Lebanon?. But that does not make me happy, I am like that cat seeing a dog being kicked, it does me no good even if it has to be done.
November 2, 2010 at 5:49 am
Its amusing to see all the condemnation of the so called “Clinicgate”; as if, if this didnt happen, the HA’s position or SHN speech would have been any different.
The only difference is that it had added a new dimension to the criticism which might have some appeal to the masses.
I really don’t understand SHN strategy. I have always believed that he is well informed and a smart person. But, I can’t really see where all this is leading to. Any idea??
November 2, 2010 at 7:02 am
Mo,
They are calling you “occupier..” is because you must have been spotted “camping” in downtown Beirut for a year…and occupied it.
November 2, 2010 at 10:34 am
Rani,
I am not sure I understand your question. Can you clarify what you mean?
November 2, 2010 at 10:38 am
Mo’s mail calls him an occupier because after it attacked his apartment uninvited, he kept it.
November 2, 2010 at 10:39 am
Mo’s mail calls him an occupier because after it foolishly invaded his apartment, he kept it.
November 2, 2010 at 10:40 am
Sorry:
“Mo”’s mail calls him an occupier because after it invaded his apartment, he kept it.
November 2, 2010 at 10:41 am
Bad jokes require good editing.
November 2, 2010 at 12:23 pm
GK,
This is the latest of what Yadlin has to say:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3978621,00.html
To me it sounds like the usual “don’t even think about cutting the defense budget” spiel the IDF regularly gives the Knesset.
November 2, 2010 at 1:31 pm
To AIG 244
My Question was: What do you think will Israel look like after a week of war with Lebanon?
I will explain my question. You told us that in that week Lebanon will be damaged greatly. As far as I know you were correct in your estimation. However it important for me to let the people on this blog know that Israelies are aware what will happen to both sides and that we do not take such war or any war lightly. As far as I am concerened the way that Israel make wars is to minimize such damage to Israel, not to maximize damage to the other side. It can be shown by demonstrating what will be the price of war to Israel and why, as far as I am concerened, Israel will go to great extremes to lower that price once a war was started.
November 2, 2010 at 2:24 pm
Rani,
I think that the Lebanese understand that we have nothing to gain from a war at the end of which we will be exactly where we started only with damage and death on both sides.
As for how much death and damage in Israel, that will depend on how successful we are in stopping Hezbollah’s larger rockets and that will depend on how good our intelligence is and several other factors.
November 2, 2010 at 3:07 pm
The US contribution to the defense of Israel from retaliatory rocket/missiles from Syria, Lebanon, Gaza and/or Iran is of critical importance.
See:
Juniper Cobra 10
and….
Juniper Falcon 11
November 2, 2010 at 3:32 pm
To the funny anonymous who wrote that “The Royal Canadian Mounted Police has the enviable worldwide reputation of always getting the ‘criminal’ it is pursuing.”
This fancy image comes from two places: the bloody history of the RCMP with Canada’s First Nations and Lucky Luke cartoons.
For a more realistic view, check:
http://www.rcmpwatch.com/
Air India case marred by ‘inexcusable’ errors
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2010/06/17/air-india017.html
Misleading RCMP Data Undermines Counterfeiting Claims
http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/2243/135/
Mounties, CIA Implicated in Arar Torture Scandal
http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=38901
November 2, 2010 at 4:30 pm
AIG 251: “…with damage and death on both sides.”
To be fair, I’d say “with much more damage and death on the Lebanese side.”
November 2, 2010 at 8:05 pm
AIG
Tnx for the Yadlin link.
November 3, 2010 at 5:08 am
to AIG 251 lally 252 and others.
In the last war wth Lebanon damage to Israel was cut down by LOCAL passive defence. Israeli Building code demand shelters in every house and apartment. Protective masks are distributed, Public shelters all over. Expensive Radar and other elecronic early warning systems with an all encompassing sound, radio, and TV announcements. It is a fact that in the last war with Lebanon casualties among the Israeli rural and certain urban Arab populations were disproportionally high. They simply belived that HA want to kill only Jews and took less percussions. in Haifa where the population is mixed it was not like that.
AIG kind of proved my point. Always some missiles will reach their targets. In the last war casualties in Haifa, for example, were low because of heavy national investment in civil protection. In Naharia people lived for weeks in shelters built and equipped by the public. What is the level of civil protection in Lebanon – the tip of the Iranian and Syrian sword against Israel?
What lally is saying is a bitter joke. Iran and Syria supply Lebanon with the killing machines while the USA is blamed? for supplying FOR MONEY protection to Israel. While Israel it self is spending millions in protecting the civil population.
Other than the rockets bases of the HA and shelters for the leaders, how much concrete was put by the HA in shelters for the population of Lebanon?
November 3, 2010 at 1:24 pm
http://www.jadaliyya.com/pages/index/276/gynecology-honor-and-the-special-tribunal-for-lebanon
“A few weeks ago, I attended President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad’s speech in the Southern Suburbs of Beirut. I waited at the women’s entrance, where the army had provided just one electronic sensor that we were all supposed to file through and prove that we were not carrying anything “dangerous.” The women around me grew frustrated and began shouting at the female soldiers, sarcastically asking them how many sensors the males had been provided with and why the women were being treated differently. Finally, when it became clear that we could miss the beginning of the evening’s festivities, the women pushed, smashed, and finally broke through the search line. Here we were, using our bodies and our voices to move through an ineffectual security apparatus that had been deployed in a discriminatory fashion; one for the women, several for the men. As I write this, it makes me think of the women who attacked the STL investigators at the women’s health clinic. Were their concerns limited to the `Ard of the men in their families? Were they mobilized, robot style (as many March 14 pundits claimed) by men in leadership positions? The night of Ahmadinejad’s speech, I moved with the women past a Lebanese soldier who was smiling and shaking her head, staring at the useless electronic wand in her hand with bemusement. I smiled back at her, and we both shrugged our shoulders. I was, in a strange way, proud to be there. I promise you, there was not a man wearing a chador in sight.”
November 3, 2010 at 1:52 pm
There are women soldiers in the Lebanese Armed Forces? I was not aware of this…
November 3, 2010 at 3:34 pm
cut and paste is great, what does B&D know about Muslim men, ard and ard? By the way last thing about the visit to the clinic we hear that the investigators were there to ask about treated injuries from Hariri murder explosion, any body knows any thing about that?
November 3, 2010 at 5:08 pm
visitor,
The Office of the Prosecutor said in a released statement, the investigators were not seeking any medical information.
November 3, 2010 at 5:44 pm
Don’t let official statements get in the way of conspiracy theories, wallaw!
November 3, 2010 at 10:56 pm
The Semitic world is in dire need of a John Lennon.
Anyone know how to translate “Imagine” into Arabic and Hebrew?
November 4, 2010 at 12:10 am
PiD, if you meant translate just the word “Imagine,” then Google-Translate to the rescue
Arabic: تخيل
Hebrew: לדמות
November 4, 2010 at 12:19 am
HP,
Google translate is wrong on this one.
To imagine is לדמיין (le’dam’yen)
לדמות is to to look alike or to image.
November 4, 2010 at 12:35 am
No … it’s not the word Imagine that I need translated. It’s the lyrics to the entire song.
Give it a try … in Arabic and Hebrew.
Imagine there’s no Heaven
It’s easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today
Imagine there’s no countries
It isn’t hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace
You may say that I’m a dreamer
But I’m not the only one
I hope someday you’ll join us
And the world will be as one
Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world
You may say that I’m a dreamer
But I’m not the only one
I hope someday you’ll join us
And the world will live as one
November 4, 2010 at 2:38 am
BV, Since we turned into a volunteer army there are a few women who have joined. I’ve yet to see a woman at a checkpoint, but I see a woman in uniform on a daily basis… For all I know it may be the same woman I see over and over again.
On your next trip to Beirut you will also notice that most immigration officers at the airport are women.
Though still drastically under represented Lebanese women are starting to slowly make some headway.
November 4, 2010 at 3:00 am
Ka-ching!
And just like that Uncle Sam throws another $10 million into the STL jackpot. (I think the World Series of Poker is a pretty good for Qnion metaphor for this stuff, + you get SHN in a golf shirt and visor, chewing on beer nuts).
In other news, I cannot wait for the first 2011 HCFA hearing on Lebanon! Ros-Lehtinen with a gavel = pure hilarity. Please someone tell her Che t-shirts are popular in the LB. Please, please, please …
November 4, 2010 at 3:58 am
For what it’s worth, Hebrew Wiki has John Lennon’s “Imagine” lyrics translated:
http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagine
Though I am not sure singing it Hebrew/Arabic will do any more good than singing it in English did, which is to say squat.
Saying is not the same as doing, ya know.
November 4, 2010 at 5:31 am
What to make of this Syrian lackey’s latest threats?
http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/NewsDesk.nsf/getstory?openform&D3C204E6BE098DDBC22577D1002F245B
Wahhab and Qanso, IMO, are the biggest reason why Lebanon should become a dictatorship that bans freedom of speech. Really the only freedom we need is to party. No more elections, no more democracy, no more silliness. Just keep the right to party and no Lebanese would know the difference.
I am no fan of Geagea, but if he actually did say that confrontation is of no interest to the Hizb, why this response from Qanso?
Why is the opposition doing everything it can to pick a fight? As sad as it is to say I am getting closer and closer to letting these dimwits know what I think of them and their leadership by packing my bags and leaving this armpit of the world. I am not subjecting my newly born daughter to the savagery of the Middle Eastern peoples.
November 4, 2010 at 9:39 am
… and here’s an Arabic translation from the following website:
http://tinyurl.com/ImagineInArabic
BUT BEWARE, if you go to the site, you’ll have to go through clicking and then closing an ad that tries to sell you a ringtone. This is why I cut-and-pasted it here:
تخيل عدم وجود السماء ،
ومن السهل إذا حاولت ،
لا الجحيم أدناه لنا ،
فوقنا السماء فقط ،
تتخيل كل الناس
تعيش لهذا اليوم…
تخيل لا يوجد البلدان ،
ليس من الصعب القيام به ،
ليس لقتل أو موت ،
لا دين للغاية ،
تتخيل كل الناس
الذين يعيشون الحياة في سلام…
قد أقول إنني حالم ،
لكنني لست واحدة فقط ،
وآمل يوما ما سوف ينضم إلينا ،
وسوف يعيش العالم باعتبارها واحدة.
تخيل أي ممتلكات ،
وأتساءل عما إذا كنت تستطيع ،
لا داعي للجشع أو الجوع ،
وجماعة الاخوان المسلمين من رجل ،
تتخيل كل الناس
تقاسم كل العالم…
قد أقول إنني حالم ،
لكنني لست واحدة فقط ،
وآمل يوما ما سوف ينضم إلينا ،
وسوف يعيش العالم باعتبارها واحدة.
November 4, 2010 at 10:29 am
Well Peter and HP,
I have taken the first step. I am an atheist. How about you, when are you giving up your religion?
November 4, 2010 at 11:38 am
The UN Human Development Rankings for 2010 are out:
http://hdr.undp.org/en/media/HDR_2010_EN_Tables.pdf
To me, they point out that the main problem of the Arab world is its inability to to develop its huge potential human capital.
November 4, 2010 at 1:23 pm
A brotherhood of man translated to وجماعة الاخوان المسلمين من رجل ،
I don’t think Lenon had that in mind…
November 4, 2010 at 1:46 pm
Hilarious, IHTDA, I had not done due diligence on that translation!
For non-Arabic speakers, it was translated as the “Muslim Brotherhood”
I can’t tell if it was a tongue-in-cheek or simply incompetence.
November 4, 2010 at 1:52 pm
Anyway, why translate? Here’s a heart warming rendition by Israeli and Arab children in the presence of former president Clinton.
November 4, 2010 at 1:57 pm
Well whoever came up with that idea of Imagine in Arabic and Hebrew, good thought; it’s been done!
November 4, 2010 at 1:59 pm
HP,
Why are you posting Zionist propaganda?
November 4, 2010 at 2:06 pm
Rani.
The “bitter joke” has been on the US taxpayer for decades.
November 4, 2010 at 2:09 pm
AIG “I have taken the first step. I am an atheist.”
You’re not an atheist. Like most Israelis you worship graven images of your heroes, and of yourselves.
As I always say, rationalists rationalize.
IDF spokeswoman completely denies hinting Israel coordinated Gaza hit with Washington
IDF confirms assassinating Army of Islam operative Mohammed Nimnim, killed earlier Wednesday when his car exploded in Gaza City.”
The first terrorists in the ME still in the game.
The AKP is more modern than the Turkish military for the same reason reformers now in Iran, even those in hijab, are more modern than the Shah, Saddam Husssein, Israel, or mini Harriri’s fanbase, which includes I hear Prince Andrew & his ex. Btw, when is mini-mini getting back “home”?
Better to defend the lies of modernism than to help foster modernity. That seems to be the logic.
Much less cut and paste this time, visitor. Just 4 u.
November 4, 2010 at 2:32 pm
Less cut and paste = More incoherence?
November 4, 2010 at 2:54 pm
AIG @ 277, now the folks who suspect me of being a closet Zionist are going to turn their suspicion to certainty
Then again, if you can be accused of being a closet Arab posing as an Israeli, then, you know, “all things are possible.”
… and here, AIG, I am quoting the Christian Bible (New Testament):
Mark 9:23 (King James Version)
Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
So, sorry about this giving up religion thing here. No dice.
Actually, I interpret “no religion” as meaning full separation of church/mosque/temple and state.
November 4, 2010 at 3:22 pm
HP,
As a staunch empiricist I see Mark 9:23 as a license for wishful thinking. In fact, it is clear that no one can trump Hezbollah members in their ability to believe nonsense. That does not make it possible. What happens by the way if two people believe two opposing things? Isn’t it clear that at least one of those things is impossible?
Since Lenon is preaching against states also, it does not make sense he is for separation of religion and state. In fact he repudiates the existence of “heaven”, clearly repudiating most religions.
November 4, 2010 at 3:25 pm
AIG, I’m impressed with your ability to review, analyze and reach conclusive opinions out of a just published 74 pages report!
“to me” I think that your conclusion and HNA speech has much in common; clinicgate or not, HNA speech would have been the same. This report or without, your conclusion would be the same.
I’m not judging your conclusion, I somehow agree with it.
November 4, 2010 at 3:37 pm
IHTDA,
I didn’t yet read this year’s report. I just saw that there was no notable change in Arab country rankings. I base my conclusions on previously published reports and the current trends. My opinion is based on years of reading the UN development reports and the specific reports related to human development in Arab countries.
By the way, you seem to imply that I have reached my conclusion blindly. What agenda of mine could such a conclusion advance?
November 4, 2010 at 3:50 pm
lally 278 thank you for responding.
Yes, Israel is helped and supported by the USA. Small nations must have the protection of big ones. Even the holy of the holiest of all nations saintly Norway is militarily helped, supported and protected by the USA. So are very many other nations.
Locally Iran is a big nation. Iran is spending large sums of money in supplying weapons and in protecting and defending Lebanon, so they all say. I think it is OK and beside nobody care about my opinion or my thinking. But there is no free meal and I hear that Iran is now talking about Lebanese oil, not long time ago England was talking about Iranian oil, that is life. It seems that soon also Turkey will be back backing & protecting Lebanon.It “protected” Lebanon for more than 400 years, it went away for less than 100 years, it is back. Lebanese school text books seem to tell much about Turkish protection. The number of the quality of protectors is the not the fate of Lebanon it is the doing of its leaders. So both Israel and Lebanon have the protection of others. Now my question was how much are the protectors of Lebanon spending on civil protection, you know: early alarming systems, privet and public bomb shelters, protective masks for the civil population, efficient fire fighting, training of scholl children, fast evacuation of casulties, training para medics etc. Israel with the help of the USA is spending much on these things. Seems that the protectors who decided to turn Leb. into the sword of the Arabs and Islam should do something about the shield. what did they do? Or is it such a big secret.
November 4, 2010 at 3:51 pm
AIG #272
The rankings of the HDI are the most important rankings in the world that attempt to measure in a rather meaningful way the quality of life instead of solely using the GDP per capita metric.
Unfortunately most of the Arab countries, especially the non oil exporters, do not do good by this metric Syria being one of the worst. The great rejectionist ranks only as 11th in the world. Lebanon who is usually in the 70s ; which is not that good; is not even ranked this year because of the lack of data on its educational attainment.
Israel, with all its war related expenditures has managed again to belong to the ranks of the most developed in the world at # 15.
When would the denial end?
November 4, 2010 at 3:52 pm
AIG, I didn’t criticize the conclusion as I haven’t read the report. All what I have said, based on you referring to the just published report,, that it have similarities to HNA latest speech with regards to the tribunal.
November 4, 2010 at 4:03 pm
IHTDA,
I understand you didn’t criticize my conclusion but the way I reached it. I explained that it is based on reading previous reports. In fact, it is a conclusion I reached a while ago and the fact that the rankings have not changed this year, makes me think the conclusion is valid even though I did not yet read this year’s report.
I completely reject your notion that my conclusion is based on some agenda that I am trying to push and not on facts. I think this is what you are trying to imply. No?
November 4, 2010 at 4:14 pm
On education …
November 4, 2010 at 4:34 pm
Ghassan #286:
Agreed 100%.
But the Lebanese people and the Arab world in general insist on living in denial.
I am still amazed that us Lebanese seem to run around acting soooooo superior when we’re in fact, not really a very great country in any kind of measure.
(Those of you who are Lebanese and who have heard/seen fellow Lebanese criticizing the rest of the world know exactly what I’m talking about).
November 4, 2010 at 4:54 pm
AIG,
Are you also active on an Egyptian or Jordanian blog? If not, why are you more interested in a Lebanese or Syrian one?
November 4, 2010 at 5:12 pm
Rani.
Comparisons between the American $upport given to Israel and effing NATO member Norway are absurd.
Don’t go there.
We have no obligation to protect & coddle a militarily aggressive, racist and increasingly fascist-leaning State that endangers American national interests and security.
Period.
As to why Lebanon hasn’t embarked on a nation-wide investment in civil defense, I suggest that it’s because Lebanon doesn’t embark on initiatives the require the protection of civilians from the repercussions of retaliatory strikes from states and/or entities that have been attacked.
That’s Israel’s historical MO so it makes sense to minimize damages to the civilian population that will be paying the price tag.
BTW, if I were Israeli, I wouldn’t be as sanguine about the deficient efforts of the Homeland Command as you appear to be. Shall we discuss the actual distribution of gas masks vs the self-deluding hasbara version of the same?
Confidence devolving into arrogance devolving into hubris is courting disaster; especially if, as promised, the next war(s) will fought on multiple fronts. That should be a dreadful prospect to any Israeli with a lick of common sense.
IMO, it’s the American *Diaspora* that has become the greatest existential threat to Israel.
November 4, 2010 at 6:24 pm
Badr,
Actually I posted a lot on Syria Comment until they banished me. Free speech is something they cannot stand. And since QN posted there and we had several interesting discussions I followed him here. If you are aware of lively Egyptian or Jordanian blogs in English, please let me know.
November 4, 2010 at 6:37 pm
PeterinDubai #289,
) Tnx for posting the link.
I have seen all the other RSAnimate videos and some were really good. Thanks for posting this one since I had missed viewing it before. (I do not agree with many of the points in this presentation but that is a different story
November 4, 2010 at 7:02 pm
You’re welcome Gus.
I don’t agree with a few things either,
However, I felt it was appropriate to post the link relative to how linear educational systems contribute to the modern clash of civilizations.
November 5, 2010 at 10:04 am
AIG,
No, im not trying to imply that your “conclusion is based on some agenda that I am trying to push and not on facts.”
Btw I have no problem with anyone pushing his/her agenda; it’s quite normal and required in any free debate.
All I was referring to is the similarities between you concluding, based on previous analysis, and linking it to a just published report. And HNA speech where he asked all not to cooperate with the investigators, which I believe he has decided long before, and linking it to the just happened incident.
No right or wrong here, just observations.
November 5, 2010 at 11:17 am
to lally 292
Thank you for your response. Too many “we” in your response stright and implied, you personally? USA ? Lebanon? whole Humanity?. Any how, some of the psychological material you wrote is above me, Sorry.
Israel, Norway and Pakistan and other nations are getting military aid from the USA. They asked for it and they got it, I understad you objection. If you are a USA citizen please call your representative in the congress or the senate, I can do little about that.
When your “we” is the people of the USA I could understand what you said about Pakistan, I quote you “We have no obligation to protect & coddle a militarily aggressive, racist and increasingly fascist-leaning State that endangers American national interests and security.” But the USA governmet think differently, again you can write etc.
As for wars and civilians, if I was a USA citizen I would not be so sanctimonous. Not about Iraq nor about the past. During the cold war neither the USA nor the USSR planned to attack first and attack civilians, yet both planned to protect their citizens including expensive protection against ABC war. I guess you being an expert psychologist you could say some thing about them. For me? better being psychotic and protected than fully sane fully unprotected.
As a rull any nation talking about “war” “resistance” etc. should take care about protect its citizens. Sanctimonious preaching from the USA will not save life in any place in any war. Few sand bags will. As far as I see from this blog and other places the HA and Lebanon are planning for war. Preparing for protecting the citizens, as nations like: Sweden, Switzerland, Norway, Russia and USA is better than preaching and demonizing.
I also agree very much with what you said about Nazralla and the HA and changing but one word I quote you, your english is so much better than mine: “Confidence devolving into arrogance devolving into hubris is courting disaster; especially if, as promised, the next war(s) will fought on multiple fronts. That should be a dreadful prospect to any Lebanese with a lick of common sense”. Can you find the changed word?
Thank you for your time.
November 5, 2010 at 11:39 am
Rani.
While I do understand your reluctance to address real concerns of the likely repercussions of regional warfare that include the enabling contributions of my own dear country, I’m not inclined to play your silly games of diversion and deflection.
I do, however, agree that my English is much better than yours. As is to be expected, que no?
November 5, 2010 at 2:13 pm
I am not shocked by much that is published on nowlebanon.com but am I the only one to notice the racist undertones in this article?
http://www.nowlebanon.com/NewsArticleDetails.aspx?ID=213948
November 5, 2010 at 4:51 pm
I don’t think it’s anyone’s business who sells their land to whom in what area of Lebanon.
Having said that, it looked to me like the article was simply pointing out the fact that such a sale is bringing to the fore underlying (and not always so hidden) sectarian tensions, much like everything else in Lebanon.
Meaning, there’s nothing new here. Lebanese people are sectarian.
What’s your point Tamer? You’re just looking for something to pick on NOW Lebanon for?
I could argue that every time Michel Aoun talks about “Tawteen” or “Representing the Christians”, he’s being racist (by your definition). So any news outlet that may report Aoun’s speech would be guilty of inciting racism in your book?
How about everytime any Lebanese politician or mouthpiece says pretty much ANYTHING? They’re all pretty much racist. We knew that.
In any other country in the world, where human rights are respected, any party, leader, citizen or otherwise, arguing on the merits of “The Christians”, the “Druze”, the “Shia” or any such distinction is really racist. No?
November 5, 2010 at 7:17 pm
The Moon is always full.
Some people just don’t see it.
November 5, 2010 at 11:26 pm
BV,
I agree with your points (one does not hear much of the older LF refrain about Hariri Islamicizing Lebanon), but the “funniest” thing about MeowLebanon is their “independent Shiite” schtick, where basically the plan is out-Shiite Hizbullah (good luck that!) — a kind of OrientleJour for Shiites, without any of the relevant history.
I do not find the website nefarious, so much as comic, and for that they have my gratitude.
November 6, 2010 at 12:17 am
My point is it is a weak attempt to explain why shias are moving into christian areas. After reading the article one is left thinking that shias are moving into other groups areas in their quest to take over lebanon, if the website really purports to be progressive it’s only fair that the journalist do their due diligence on the issue.
For example lets say you know a shiite ready to move out of dahiyeh into a new neighborhood. You have the familiar neighborhood of jnah/bir hassan pushing prices of 3000 dollars per square meter while you could move to nearby hadath at prices that are half of that.
The article manages only to quote christian people who are scared of shias moving into their area, interview people on the other side of this issue. nowLebanon would of raised hell if it was shia policy not to sell land to a certain group of people in a certain area of lebanon, how about an editorial about racist landlord practices in Lebanon.
The article reads like this to me when you replace a few words.
Many Black families have moved out of Hezbollah-controlled neighborhoods like Dahiyeh into areas like Hadath, on the outskirts of Beirut, according to the employees of that municipality. They say White landlords made an agreement to no longer sell property to Blacks, but only to rent. “We are trying to preserve our community,” one Hadath municipality worker said. “They are our neighbors, we live in peace, but it’s our way to preserve our identity.”
Only more reason to move back to America and forget about this country forever.
November 6, 2010 at 10:20 am
Tamer k,
I am in total agreement with your observation. We pretend that we are a diverse society but in reality we are not. (Some areas of Ras Beirut are the only areas of the country with some meaningful integration).
I think that one of the most effective ways to learn to accept each other irrespective of our religious affiliations is through the integration of housing. Lebanon is so badly in need of so many laws in all sorts of fields. One of the most important, besides the political, is the area of protection of human rights. We are a society where discrimination of all sorts and in all areas (rental, real estate purchases, employment, access to private beaches, sexual orientation…) is rampant.
What is the likelihood of passing and implementing a law that would make it a major infraction not to have open access to all real estate transactions i.e outlaw all redlining efforts.:-) You better not hold your breath.
November 6, 2010 at 10:44 am
Tamer,
Just like GK explained, I agree with your observation as well. Such overt discrimination is terrible. It seems to me that things have gotten more sectarian after the civil war era.
I count my blessings that I lived in Ras Beirut (Hamra) when I grew up. Maybe I’m biased, but I always thought that it was the most integrated and tolerant area in all of Lebanon.
I wish the whole country follows such an example.
November 6, 2010 at 11:17 am
I may be singing a tired old refrain but my view is unless and until EVERYONE, all parties, all confessions, in Lebanon agree and subscribe to the establishment of a civil society with rules completely separate and independent form any religious affiliation, i.e., until complete and accepted separation of church/mosque/temple and state, I’m afraid it will be “deja vu all over again,” again and again.
November 6, 2010 at 11:34 am
I will add that there is little hope for such in the near future mainly because the religious leaders are going to fight any diminution of their power and influence. This is regrettable of course because religious leaders should be focused on the private religious life and ethics of their flock.
Long term, I am not as pessimistic as many here. In many ways I have gone through that phase of utter disgust and wanting nothing to do with the native land. In the end, though, this land is where we were born and we will always have some longing to imagine it in better times. A long time from now maybe, but it’s not impossible.
November 6, 2010 at 1:51 pm
AIG,
As we had mentioned in an earlier post the HDI for 2010 is out and it is better than ever. More refined methodology, new metrics and an interactive feature. I might do a short piece on the Arab countries later on in the week end.
Israel has an overall HDI ranking of 15 but when the ranking are based only on NonIncome components Israel becomes the 8th in the world. A great performance. Yet if one is to use the Inequality adjusted HDI Israel drops to 23rd which is still very good but it shows the high inequality of income distribution in the country. Actually Israel has a Gini coefficient that is just behind that of the US in the group of Very High HDI. This raises a couple of questions:
(1)Are the majority on the upper end of the personal Income distribution home grown wealthy people or is a portion of the wealth “imported” so to speak i.e people who came to Israel with their wealth.
(2) Is it fair to suggest that most and probably all the 20 % of those at the bottom are the Israelis of an Arab origin in addition to the bedouins and if so is Israel content in using them as a reserve army of unemployed or is there a serious effort to integrate them economically? Any light you can shed on this will be appreciated.
November 6, 2010 at 3:51 pm
Ghassan;
Your questions can be answered using the Israeli bureau of statistics(www.cbs.gov.il)
I looked at some 2008 data, and the results are interesting, I think. Personally I was surprised – thought the differences were smaller.
When looking an the gross monthly income of a 4 person household, the difference between Jews & Arabs is huge:
Jews: 19,100NIS
Jews(Father born in Asia/Africa): 17,600 NIS
Jews(Father born in Europe/US): 24,200 NIS
Arab: 9,000 NIS.
So, difference between ‘rich country’ and ‘poor country’ origin Jews significant but not huge, with enormous difference vs. the Arab population (approximatly double).
One might conclude this indicates Jewish wealth generated mostly in Israel, while Arabs occupy much of the lower income classes.
Interestingly, the trend at least is Positive:
Looking at a 2003 presentation based on 2001 data (http://www.sikkuy.org.il/yeda/hashvaa.html – Hebrew, but you can still see the data):
It seems that 10 years ago the Jewish income was triple that of the Arab (11,000 NIS vs. 3,100NIS). The same presentation shows the Arab population in Israel is consistently catching up with the Jewish population in terms of high education, which may explain the improvement over the last ten years..
Hope this answers your question.
G
November 6, 2010 at 4:08 pm
TO GK in addition to AIG
1.Most, rich and still active persons are native born. Some of the very rich came from Arab-Islamic countries like Teshva from Libya. Offhand I know only one rich lady who brought her capital, realy her father capital, from abroad. There were one or two people who brought much capital from the USSR- Russia. Too much capital is exported from Israel but that is another story.
2. There are not ONLY “poor” Arabs in Israel. Many new Jewish immigrants are realy poor. Many Jews from the Arab countries in geographical marginal areas are still poor. Ultra ortodox Jews are often very poor. Basically Israeli Arabs are descriminated against in security associated jobs. However the Durzi find good jobs in that sector. Also in other government jobs you will find relatively few arabs, it is not against Arabs it is patronage as it is in other places in the ME. However the number of Arabs in jobs associated with medicine is rising fast. Also in Banking and such there are more and more Arabs. Some of the rich building contractors are Arabs. Also in some Ag. associated business there are very rich Arabs. Generally Arab farmers are doing fine, the Durzi farmers on the golan, for example, are probably the richest Syrian farmers. One real problem is finding jobs for Arab women and the Israeli economy could use their contribution. All over you can not say that in Israel clearly the arabs as a group are poorer than the Jews as a group, but though it is against the law to descriminate it is at times easier for a Jew to get a given job.
November 6, 2010 at 5:12 pm
GK,
1) The people who came to Israel from Western countries and were wealthy is a very small percentage of the population. Most of the wealthy Israelis became rich in Israel. In my milieu it is from successful high tech startups. Many wealthy Jews from abroad invest in Israel without living here. For example Sheldon Adelson and Larry Ellison (there are many many more).
2) Most of the 20% on the bottom are Arabs and ultra orthodox Jews (about half and half). We need to do a better job integrating these communities. The Arabs are under represented in the high tech industry mostly because they did not work in the military high tech side from which much of the civilian high tech evolved. Still, many start up teams are forged based on joint experience in the same military units. This leads to a vicious cycle in which Arabs are less inclined to study subjects useful for the high tech industry because their chances of finding jobs there are smaller. Another issue is that Arab women are more likely to be stay at home moms and this reduces the average family income. Also, most Arabs are in the periphery (basically outside the Tel-Aviv area), and both Jews and Arabs in this area tend to earn less.
Is there a serious effort to integrate the Arabs better? I think we could be doing a better job for sure especially in the area of more equitable budget allocation. There are some issues though that I am not sure we can overcome such as the fact that most Arabs do not serve in the IDF and the distrust between the communities. Unlike in the case of immigrants to the US, you cannot expect the Arabs to assimilate into Jewish society or vice versa.
November 6, 2010 at 5:17 pm
GK,
Sorry for the overlap, Rani and I posted in parallel and I didn’t see his answer.
November 6, 2010 at 5:52 pm
This is a good example of: “Lebanese Hypocrisy on steroid”. All parties/sects
claim to want a strong ,and democratic state, Yet it becomes a national crisis if a citizen who happen to be of a certain faith or sect ,moved( or bought a piece of land ) to another area, which happened to be predominantly of a different sect
What makes it worse, is that some (if not most) Main stream media fuel these crises, by publishing unbalanced and suspicious Stories, like the one published by nowlebanon. They don’t realize how racist they sound. It shows how irresponsible some media outlets are.
I just wonder what part of democracy they would have to eliminate out of the “democratic constitution”, to justify such discriminatory practices.
Are they willing to abolish the existing sectarian system for a more civil, and democratic system?
To answer my own question, I just have to remind myself of the day when Lebanese religious leaders rejected a bill would have given people the option to marry in a civil court, if they choose to, instead of a religious court.
As long as the leadership is producing more of itself, and as long as the heads of religious institutions are given a major role in Lebanese political and social affairs, my dreams will become the dreams of my grand children and theirs .
November 6, 2010 at 6:17 pm
AIG/Rani/G,
Thanks for all the info supplied by your answers. I will visit the Israeli bureau of statistics later on tonight.
For one reason or another I expected the Israeli society to have a less inequitable distribution of income. A Gini coefficient of almost 40 is quite high which is not much better than the level of inequality of the Arab countries for whom the measure is calculated. (Lebanon, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, UAE…do not have data). My original question should not have concentrated on wealth since the Gini in question is that of income. I know that wealth and income are often very highly correlated but yet such a high income inequality was surprising. Thanks again.
November 6, 2010 at 9:10 pm
Prophet,
“As long as the leadership is producing more of itself, and as long as the heads of religious institutions are given a major role in Lebanese political and social affairs, my dreams will become the dreams of my grand children and theirs.”
You put your finger on a (key?) factor. It is going to take true religious faith and fundamental soul searching by a number of religious leaders to have them lead the way towards such separation of church/mosque/temple and state. It must come from within for otherwise I’m afraid the religious leaders will continue manipulating their flock to perpetuate the tragedy of confessional cleavages that decimate a civil society and doom any hope of a true democracy.
November 6, 2010 at 10:19 pm
HP, Prophet,
Why are human any different from dogs ?
We breed them for their race, no?
http://gulfnews.com/news/gulf/uae/society/rise-in-number-of-spinsters-as-emiratis-marry-foreigners-1.672200
November 7, 2010 at 1:49 am
There is no denial that the Lebanese people are sectarian and to a great extent hypocritical about it. I agree with all the comments regarding this issue mentioned above by many posters.
However, I think the article in NowLebanon was highlighting another issue. The Politics and Property. A party with undisclosed funding buying properties for undisclosed purposes. In Lebanon, we need a law that governs the parties especially their funding (applies to HA and all others). Without proper laws, all actions by parties will be open to personal interpretations and conspiracy theorists (All Lebanese) will have a field day anytime a new story comes up.
November 7, 2010 at 3:47 am
tamer k #303,Prophet #313, everyone’s remarks would be welcome if it weren’t known by all that similar moves are indeed impossible in other areas. “A la guerre comme a la guerre” is the only valid motto today in Lebanon, and hypocrisy is well distributed.
But don’t you worry, the reformers have it all figured out. Now “The Chi’a Man” and “The Sunni Man” have become categories you can speak about (for and against)publicly in political discourse.
http://www.lorientlejour.com/numero/4340/article/677595/Aoun+:_%3C%3C+Je_suis_solidaire_du_chiite,_et_le_probleme_entre_1943_et_1975_etait_avec_le_sunnite+%3E%3E_.html
Unless of course L’O le J is lying in French, which is also very possible.
Further down that page, luckily for us, some still refuse to go to similar lengths, and keep the wording strictly unconfessional, ouf:
“L’ancien ministre Wi’am Wahhab a assuré qu’ « il n’y aura pas de guerre civile au Liban ». « Nous avons mis en place dix scénarios. Le dixième comporte un tantinet de force », a-t-il dit.
« Il y a 40 à 50 personnes qui forment un gang, et nous les traiterons comme elles méritent d’être traitées, ni plus ni moins », a affirmé M. Wahhab dans le cadre d’un entretien accordé à la OTV.”
40 to 50 is ok. I feel safer now, I’m definitely not in that “gang”.
Now I just have to beware of lost bullets in my way to the groceries…
November 7, 2010 at 5:38 am
my dreams will become the dreams of my grand children and theirs
Probably not, if they are third generation and higher immigrants.
November 7, 2010 at 8:33 am
mj @ 318: very interesting and very confusing. I still can’t figure out if Aoun is actually sincere and a genius, or if he is prompted by ulterior motives.
One of the problems is that he does adopt a very confessional and sectarian tone which cannot be part of a sound foundation for a stable and fair republic.
November 7, 2010 at 8:51 am
While the report below is good news of sorts, one hopes it would be followed at some point with similar withdrawals from the Sheba’a farms, removing one more excuse of HA’s armament.
http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/NewsDesk.nsf/getstory?openform&CF6FC85398C5905AC22577D400415883
“Israel to Quit from Part of Ghajar, Discusses Withdrawal Plan with UN”
An interesting part of the article is this one:
Hizbullah on Sunday positioned itself to claim victory for any pullout.
“If the withdrawal happens, it (Israel) won’t be doing it for free but because of fear of the resistance and Lebanon’s strength through the resistance,” Hizbullah NP Nawar Saheli told The Associated Press in Beirut.(AP-Naharnet)
Interesting indeed. Let’s see, first HA triggers the war of 2006 which leads to the occupation of the northern half of Ghajar (the southern part having been determined by UN surveyors as being in Israel at the 2000 withdrawal), and now that Israel is negotiating with the UN withdrawal from that northern half, HA claims credit?
Let’s say we grant HA credit for this withdrawal and let’s say Israel withdraws from the Sheba’a farms so there is not a square centimeter of Lebanese territory left in contention with Israel. Will HA then disarm?
(rhetorical question you say?)
November 7, 2010 at 8:56 am
To side with Aoun and share his trust and praise of HA, a necessary condition must be fulfilled: HA must reject definitively the statements it has made of its goals of an (eventual) islamic country in Lebanon, following wilayat-el-Faqih (Iran), proclaim its support for full separation of church/mosque/temple and church as it would be cemented in a constitutional amendment, and announce definitively and publicly (not in a bilateral MOU with Aoun/FPM — which can so easily be reversed) the surrender of all its weapons and soldiers to the control of the Lebanese government as soon as the Sheba’a farms are liberated.
I have no illusion that this has any chance of happening but it if did then maybe indeed Aoun is a genius.
November 7, 2010 at 11:38 am
HP,
I am personally against Israel because moving out of Ghajar because the residents want Israel to stay and it does seem stupid to cut a village in half. Let’s have a referendum there and to which whatever country they want to go, that country should get all the village.
Also, have we not learned that unilateral moves do not help when it comes to Lebanon? The withdrawal in 2000 achieved the exact opposite effects than were intended regarding the arming of Hezbollah and led to the 2006 war.
Israel should only move out of Ghajar as part of an agreement with the Lebanese government. In fact YOU should demand that it does so because otherwise it only strengthens Hezbollah at the expense of the central government.
November 7, 2010 at 11:51 am
Are you sure AIG?
Now try and replace the word “Ghajar” by “Jerusalam”
November 7, 2010 at 12:10 pm
AIG,
I do think that anything that can be done to ensure that such withdrawal is coming about from negotiations and diplomacy and without anything to do with (or actually despite) the belligerence of HA is a good (necessary?) thing. It’s up to Israel, the UN, and the Lebanese government to actually work together towards such unambiguous message.
I do agree with the idea of having a referendum in the town of Ghajar and let the inhabitants there chose where they want to belong, or at the very least voice their opinion. If indeed an overwhelming majority choses Israel, then so be it. The difficulty will arise if it’s a split vote. The other difficulty is the concern some will have about a precedent being set where border villages will start requesting referendums to determine which of two adjacent countries they belong to.
I don’t quite know or understand what’s prompting this move now by Israel but if it is part of a strategy to take away all excuses of territorial “liberation” by HA, then there is some merit to it. I have no illusion that HA will all of a sudden say “ok, we’re done, here are our weapons and our warriors to merge with the LAF.” The other claims they will put forth are the return of prisoners and then the defense against future attacks. The question is whether the other forces in Lebanon — including, very importantly, the FPM and General Michel Aoun — will now have no further excuses to side with HA, and, as a result, side in a unified manner with every non-HA citizen and member to demand the disarmament.
November 7, 2010 at 12:16 pm
IHTDA,
Quite sure. There are more Jews in Jerusalem than Arabs.
And I don’t think a majority of the Arabs are too much enthused about being part of a Palestinian state.
Why are the Israeli Arabs so angry about Lieberman’s idea of making some Arab villages part of the Palestinian state instead of Israel? Not one bit of property would be taken from them, just the border would be moved a few kilometers west, and they would be Palestinians instead of Israelis. What’s not to like?
Yet, Lieberman’s ideas are deemed “racist”. Why is what is proposed for Ghajar not “racist” in the same way?
November 7, 2010 at 12:22 pm
HP,
Aoun has already said that he will support HA until there is a credible alternative “defense strategy” in place. So Israeli withdrawals will not help at all in that regard. As for HA, they have already said that there are seven villages in the Galilee that they deem Lebanese and that need to be freed.
http://www.rightsidenews.com/200811202680/world/israel/hezbollah-disputes-israel-lebanon-border-seven-villages.html
They will always have more excuses and willing believers in their propaganda.
November 7, 2010 at 12:55 pm
HP,
) the position never seems to take hold.
There is a general tone in most of the comments that deal with the thorny HA issue that I find a little bit troubling.I have tried to deal with this issue before but unfortunately (for me
I have never tried to hide the fact that I am opposed very strongly both to the politics and the military wing of HA. I will however support HA’s right to spread and preach its ideology openly and using any and all legal means. My essential and unwavering criticism is that they have no right whatsoever to the militia and that Resistance is a right that belongs to the people and not to a selected group.
Having said that I do not want to be labelled as a supporter of the status quo. The current cabinet as well as the two preceeding ones under Saniora have been ineffective , incapable of governing and even corrupt. Actually I canno lend my support either to Jumblatt or to Salam, Hariri, Gemayel, Geagea Karami et al. The traditional ruling class must go , each and every single one of them if the country is to have a chance at catching up with the rest of the world and of establishing a free democratic society. I guess that I would like to make it clear than in the Lebanon that I know it is not sufficient to oppose HA’s military wing but it is equally important to oppose all of the established politicians. Our problem is systemic and as such it cannot be saved by more of the same. The traditional feudalistic-religous alliance is the problem and so it cannot be part of the solution. The calls that emminate every once in a while from these leaders for so called reform this and reform that ought to be rejected since these are efforts aimed at solidifying their hold at the system by only offering meaningless palliatives disguised to confuse the electorate and promote the interests of the ruling hierarchy.
Lebanon has been through a so called reform after 1958, after the lengthy civil war , after the so called Cedar revolutionand after Doha. None of these efforts bore meaningful fruits for the real citizens who are still as voiceless as ever. Actually these continuous efforts at reinventing themselves is a reminder of the popular Karl Marx statement is response to Hegels explanation that history repeats itself. Marx said:”First as tragedy and then as farce” and someone added” the farce is often more deadly than the tragedy”. When will we learn that our “enemies” are the men of the cloth and the political feudal lords.
November 7, 2010 at 1:52 pm
HP
Israel can not withdraw from the Sheba’a farms because nobody knows what it is. Unlike Ghajar which was surveyed by the UN to less than cm the area of Sheba`s farms is totally undefined. As for Ghajar, within few days the HA will declare that the UN helped Israel to steal Lebanese land and the story will not end. Me and my stories, have you ever heard about Juha Nail?
November 7, 2010 at 2:19 pm
HP and others
Please google:
Lebanon Syria Borders
It is a report by the UN. It is a great reading for any body who ever entered this blog. Also to any body who teach or give talks about modern Lebanon it is a required reading.
November 7, 2010 at 6:31 pm
I’ve got some questions for Atheists on this blog.
What perks do I get working for you ? Do I get two days a week off or one ? Will they fall on a Monday and Wednesday or Thursday?
What are the total annual vacation days I get ? What are they called ?
Do you offer a retirement plan ? If so, when, and at what age?
November 7, 2010 at 6:50 pm
PeterinDubai,
Since I am not sure that you are serious in your inquiry I will only say that the work place of the future will be very flexible. Employees will choose, within some constraints, when to work. As society becomes more productive we will work less and less. This is not a utopian dream, a few corporations have been experimenting with such a formula for a few years. Results have been very encouraging.
November 7, 2010 at 7:01 pm
Why should atheists differ in their approach when it comes to standard business practices within their sector?. Just because we’re infidels doesn’t mean we don’t accept the needs of those who aren’t.
November 7, 2010 at 7:12 pm
lally, you can’t be infidel if you’re atheist, you’re afidel
November 7, 2010 at 7:52 pm
What;s the definition of the Alpha female ?
November 7, 2010 at 7:54 pm
Where is her word?
November 8, 2010 at 9:59 am
AIG,
I read a bit more about Ghajar and it’s a bit confusing why Netanyahu is making this move now. Do you understand what possible motivations might be? Apparently the villagers don’t want their village divided. Those who don’t want to be affiliated with Israel say they are Syrian and not Lebanese. What gives?
November 8, 2010 at 11:49 am
The WSJ is reporting that the STL indictments will name the brother in law of Mughanieh and that the indictments are expected before the end of the year.
If the case is tight and if such high ranking HA personalities are involved then no doubt HA is fighting like a cornered cat. Many of the leaks have proven to be accurate so far and if ( A big if) this latest leak is correct then HA wants look as if it is above the fray and yet a few of its operatives to have been caught with their hand in the cookie jar. If that is the case then HA should have been distancing itself from these “rogue” elements instead of fighting to deny their involvement.
November 8, 2010 at 12:10 pm
“HA is fighting like a cornered cat”
By whom? Your wishful thinking goes on and on.
You really think some European indictment is going to give people who live with the daily threat of assasination sleepless nights?
You really think they will lose one point of a percentage point by any indictment?
Maybe many of the posters on here will cheer heartily for such statements but you are doing nothing more than preaching to your choir.
Listen to yourself, “If that is the case then HA should have been distancing itself from these “rogue” elements”. Have you even been following what they are saying. They are not denying their involvement, they are stating that their involvement is being manufactured.
It is laughable that you people put such store in these international tribunals. especially when they shift the blame so easily and so publicly as soon as the “accused” starts to play ball. Its about as credible as when Syria was “behind” the Lockerbie bombing until it started supporting the “Coalition” to oust Saddam from Kuwait and then suddenly it wasn’t behind it and Libya was.
How much do you want to bet that if SHN announced that the Resistance was laying down its arms tomorrow, then it suddenly would be Al-Qaida who did it.
November 8, 2010 at 12:11 pm
“You really think they will lose one point of a percentage point by any indictment?”
Should read
You really think they will lose one point of a percentage point of support by any indictment?
November 8, 2010 at 12:39 pm
Mo,
Relax and chill brother. You are almost yelling like SHN.
I’d rather wait and see what happens after the indictments are issued and how many of the indicted are dead people?
lakhayem
November 8, 2010 at 1:26 pm
HP # 717, you are absolutely right that it would have to take “true religious faith and fundamental soul searching by a number of religious leaders to have them lead the way towards such separation of church/mosque/temple and state”Unfortunately, I’m not hopeful that any of them is willing to lead the way for such separation. It is not in the human nature to go against his/her own interest. Their interest is maintain the influence and power they already have, if not gaining more
mj #318,
I wish I could read french .
November 8, 2010 at 2:08 pm
UTP/mo, #339
We have established a while back that you and I have a different understanding of events. We have at one time agreed to revisit this issue in 2015, if I am still here:-)
UTP, what does it mean when you say that the evidence is manufactured? Are you saying that Bellmare and the STL are running an operation whose aim is to manufacture evidence? If that is not what you mean then who is it that you are indicting and on what grounds besides wishful thinking?
So you really think that the Lebanese are dumb enough to dismiss evidence if it turns out to be credible? Why are you objecting to the description that HA is fighting like a cornered cat? If they did not sense the huge damage that they might suffer from such an indictment then why are they fighting it so hard even before it is issued? Do you think that the evidence, if credible, will just be dismissed by all factions? Be realistic, just like Sheikh Kassem, who does not deny the potential damage that could befall HA.
November 8, 2010 at 2:46 pm
UTP,
Libya paid upwards of $1.5 Billion for their involvement in the Lockerbie bombing.
And who are you calling “you people” ?
November 8, 2010 at 3:47 pm
Ghassan,
I gotta say. I am not entirely sure that a good majority of Lebanese aren’t dumb enough to dismiss credible evidence.
Have you talked to some of these bozos? Lebanese people have, by large, demonstrated time and again a willingness to live in denial of pretty evident truths and hide their heads in the sands in stead. I would not be at all surprised that any credible evidence produced by the STL will be dismissed as fabricated.
The Lebanese seem to be inclined to dismiss the laws of physics and common sense when it suits them.
November 8, 2010 at 4:09 pm
HP,
The people of Ghajar are Alawites. They have prospered under Israeli rule. Naturally, they would say they are Syrians so as not to be seen as wanting to be part of Israel.
It is not clear to me also what deal Bibi has struck with the UN regarding Israeli withdrawal. The timing does seem strange. We will have to wait and see.
November 8, 2010 at 5:22 pm
BV,
But one must believe in miracles, no:-) BTW, when I posted #328 I thought of you. I stated that very few if any understand the point that I have often tried to make; I oppose HA strongly but I am no fan of either Sa’ad, Saniora, the President, Jumblatt, Geagea … since you are one of the few who appreciate that position. Take care.
November 8, 2010 at 5:39 pm
Gk,
“what does it mean when you say that the evidence is manufactured?”
That the evidence is presented to fit the accused
“Are you saying that Bellmare and the STL are running an operation whose aim is to manufacture evidence? ”
I am saying that there is an agenda. Whether it is the investigators themselves or the evidence being supplied to the investigation is moot. But yes, I am saying that the evidence is contrived.
I say this on the basis that as soon as it was needed Syria was all of a sudden not the obvious and clear criminal it had been. How exactly does an investigation go from publicly accusing on “suspect” to suddenly
pointing it at others?
“So you really think that the Lebanese are dumb enough to dismiss evidence if it turns out to be credible?”
I think the some in Lebanon will take any “Prima facie” and circumstantial evidence and call it credible. Whats your point? Besides, five years and counting, Im not holding out for any “credible” evidence.
“Why are you objecting to the description that HA is fighting like a cornered cat?”
Because for a cat to be cornered it has to be feel under a threat from a credible danger and threat. The STL and all its supporters in Lebanon are not that.
“If they did not sense the huge damage that they might suffer from such an indictment then why are they fighting it so hard even before it is issued?”
Because of the damage to the country it will cause. You still do not get that the agenda all across the ME is to pit Sunni against Shia? You still believe that the US govt. has no pro-Israeli agenda and is just trying to bring freedom to us? Do you really believe that?
“Do you think that the evidence, if credible, will just be dismissed by all
factions?”
No, but nor would I care were it not for the fact that I believe some wish to use this “credible” evidence to create strife.
PeterinDubai,
Libya paid the money to drop the sanctions. Even some of the families of the victims don’t believe the Libyans were behind it.
“you people” is anyone who isn’t what BV regards as a “bozo”. Its the Lebanese on here that seem to have more pent up distaste for people who have sacrificed their lives for Lebanon, because of some imaginary fear of the imminent Caliphate than for the Israeli posters who would happily kill their families in Lebanon the next time they are called up.
Anyway, that’s it from for now as I shall become a UTP again. I’ll come back again when the Israelis realise that the STL will get them nowhere and attack Lebanon in the Spring.
November 8, 2010 at 6:05 pm
GK,
Much appreciated. I indeed am with you 100% on that. I am very much of the opinion that every single one of the current crop of feudal leaders, along with the antiquated sectarian system needs to be thrown away ENTIRELY. Not “reformulated” but completely done away with, before Lebanon can be a true and fair democracy.
And I am, much like you, entirely opposed to any armed militia (be it under the guise of resistance or otherwise) that operates outside the state. Period.
As for my comment about Lebanese accepting credible evidence…Well…Exhibit A: UTP’s post #348. I rest my case.
November 8, 2010 at 6:05 pm
Back from a hellish 3 weeks in Lebanon! I’ve been to Baghdad and Kabul and they are less stressful.
To those who have children and contemplating leaving this God forsaken place called Lebanon I say go leave already, if you can give your children the chance to grow up in a somewhat normal society outside and you don’t you must be a heartless selfish person.
I agree with BV the majority of the Lebanese are “enlightened” enough and would believe wild conspiracy theories over any hard evidence.
HP,
Ghajar was not occupied in 2006. Its inhabitants are Syrian Bedouins, the village was occupied in 67 its status is similar to Sheba farms undecided whether it is Syrian or Lebanese territory. I guess we will find out soon when all hell breaks loose who will have final ownership
November 8, 2010 at 6:08 pm
UTP, not so fast.
The “imaginary fear of the imminent Caliphate” is not imaginary to some of us. It is very real, and were it to be credibly removed we will be the first to rally around Gen. Aoun and his vision and SHN and his (if indeed it’s there) true Lebanese patriotism.
You surely understand that, in light of the history of all the events that transpired, all the speeches, past and present, all the behavior, some of us are quite justified in having this impression and this fear.
I may venture to say that the perceived conspiracy to fabricate evidence and/or twist its interpretation to accuse folks who otherwise are innocent, such perception is “imaginary.”
We differ here. While none of us can convince you at this point that the perception that there is a set-up or a conspiracy involving Israel and the US to frame HA is “imaginary,” but may well be able to do so once the facts and the STL proceedings are underway, you, on the other hand, perhaps has the arguments to convince us that our fear is “imaginary.” But wait, you’ve tried that already and, at least for me, it didn’t work. How about unambiguous declarations to that effect by HA leaders along with a change of the written charter? That might do it, but what are the chances of this happening?
November 8, 2010 at 6:29 pm
Ghasan#328,
I usually don’t attend arguments I’m not invited to, in fear of not being welcome, lol
I understand, and fully respect your right to oppose HA ideology. I for once, don’t support the their ideology at all, though, I believe they have the right to be part of the political system.
My problem with your comment is your position on resistance. I understand from your position that a state has to have consensus on resistance before it lunches one.
In an ideal world, a government would organize/support a public resistance to help state army defend against foreign aggression, and/or help liberate occupied territories.
What can be done when the state abandons its responsibilities toward its people, and its territories? What can be done when the state, for one reason or combination of reasons, ceases to be to in control? What do we do when the whole state is torn apart by civil wars?
How do you expect consensus when, at one time, Lebanese political party were allied with the Israelis? I don’t want to open wounds here, but your idealistic position does not make much sense to the people who were suffering under Israeli occupation.
Was the French resistance against the Nazis created thorough consensus?
When a state ceases to be in control, people have the right to defend their country, and territorial sovereignty.
How else could have Israeli been forced to withdraw from Beirut, and the majority of the territories it had occupied during the 82 invasion?
Do you truly believe that Lebanon could ever have consensus on resistance or any other important national issue, when you have a very weak authority?
were we supposed to let the occupation of Lebanese territories by Israel go unchallenged, until we have a government that could have organize a national resistance through consensus?
What if some people decided they do not want to resist? Does everyone else have to follow?
I appreciate your idealism, but it is not realistic in this case. I hope you didn’t let your opposition to HA ideology, influence your definition of resistance.
Growing up within eye sight of the border myself, I didn’t notice any effort by my state to defend its people or its territories( I won’t get into further discussion on the failure of the state of Lebanon ) .
November 8, 2010 at 6:30 pm
An aside, although one that’s somewhat relevant to the topics at hand: Hazem Saghieyh’s exceptional writeup here:
http://nowlebanon.com/NewsArticleDetails.aspx?ID=214741
Very interesting indeed. I fully agree with his notion of shame vs. guilt.
November 8, 2010 at 6:37 pm
UTP
I hope that you are still around for one more post at least. You have been much more “objective” or less partisan in the past.
I have two issues to raise in connection to your last post. It seems that you are suggesting that investigations never change their directions. But as you well know it is exactly the opposite. A good impartial investigation will let the evidence lead. When the evidence leads to a dead end then you start all over again. To the best of my knowledge there has not been an official accusation of Syria besides the one time remarks by Mehlis who was not a member of the STL. I submit that it is to the credit of the STL that they announced that the information supplied by some of the witnesses did not pan out. We sometimes forget that it was the STL that has turned a deaf ear to the so called “false witnesses”
The other point is the respopnse that you gave in your attempt to answer the question why are they reacting this way if they have nothing to fear. You said that it is only the motivation for the love of country. Is that why they started the 2006 war? But more importantly is the current threat and reason for the uncertainty and political instability; if HA is not to make trouble then there won’t be any. Is it too much to ask that the political wing of HA waits to find out who is indicted and for what before they start a campaign of threats and disobedience?
November 8, 2010 at 6:57 pm
“Growing up within eye sight of the border myself, I didn’t notice any effort by my state to defend its people or its territories”
Prophet,
I also grew up within eye sight of the border however in addition to what you did not notice, I noticed how the people sided with the PLO and allowed the village to be used as a launching pad for all types of stupid attacks on the Israelis that had no military value or achievement. I also witnessed how the people sided with all kinds of leftist militias against the state of Lebanon and its legitimate troops that you expected to provide protection. Back then the Lebanese Army was practically the enemy of the communists and all types of revolutionaries who wanted to liberate Palestine from my house in Khiam.
When will the Lebanese share the responsibility and blame? Never
November 8, 2010 at 7:36 pm
V,
Excellent points. People are quick to blame the “absence of a state” in the South, forgetting all the while how hostile they were to that same state.
Mind you, I’m not saying the state isn’t to blame in many ways for neglecting a portion of its citizen, or being co-opted by sectarian/feudal zaims. Of course it was. But as you said, the Lebanese refuse to share the blame in pretty much anything. It’s ALWAYS someone else’s fault. It’s exactly that mentality that leads me to doubt Ghassan’s wish that “Lebanese wouldn’t be so dumb as to overlook credible evidence.” Of course they would be that dumb. They prove it day in and day out.
November 8, 2010 at 7:47 pm
Prophet,
This is a public forum and I do not mean to exclude anyone when I use a name of a commentator.
I could give you a very detailed response but the fact of the matter is that my position vis a vis resistance is not idealistic at all; it is democratic
I am glad that we are in total agreement on the rights of HA or any group to promote freely its ideology and beliefs.Diversity of opinion is very healthy. If I want the right to dissent then clearly I should offer it to others. You can rest assured that my ideological disagreement with HA does not colour my position on resistance. It seems that we agree that all peoples have the right to resist occupation , foreign and otherwise. That is precisely why no one can take away from HA the respect and the accomplishments that they earned so well in their fight to liberate Lebanese land.
The problem is not with the accomplishment but with the efforts to maintain Resistance as a right and possibly obligation of only one specific grioup of people. If resistance is the right of all citizens then any group should be able to organize and join the resistance movement.An open resistance is not the same as a monopoly. HA insist that their members are the only resistance and so they are to be privileged and allowed to operate as a state within a state. If that is the case then Resistance becomes vigilanteism no more and no less.
HA have the right to disagree with the governing forces and thus to take over government but what they do not have the right to do is to demand a monopoly on patriotism, to insist like any good monopolist that their interpretation of events is the only one that matters since they have the bigger gun.
What we have here is an idea that belongs to the people, all the people, that was monopolised and thus used the monopoly power to exploit their position of power. Furthermore like any good monopolist they made sure that no competition was to be allowed and thus their exploitation of their unfair advantage proceeded unchecked. What started as a democratic right of all metamorphed into a stifling exploitative monopoly, into a vigilante movement.
I will be the first to admit that the military wing of HA has the right to disagree /reject officialdom and to rise against it. What they do not have the right to do is to seek a monopoly position that rests on official sanctions and yet to disallow government control. They cannot be and not be simultaneously. They are either a part of the fabric and so they will have to abide by the general rules or they are not and then they have the right to rebel. What they cannot do is be both.
November 8, 2010 at 7:58 pm
V Says,#355
You pick and choose what to points to address.
I can’t disagree much with what you said about some people siding with the leftist parties, or the PLO.
But you seem to forget that The Israeli aggression against Lebanon had been going on before even the arrival of the PLO.
As far as southerners supporting leftist parties, that should never be an accusation. It was ,and still is their rights to be what ever they wish. We also had people supporting right wing parties . Are saying that all Lebanese should have supported right wing parties to be saved from Israel ? If that is the case, you insinuating that right wing parties are traitors. Though I have my differences with right wing parties, but I will not accuse them of being traitors , like you did.
Do I understand from your comment , that being leftist gives Israel an excuse to shell, and occupy Lebanese territories?
Aside of your opinion of leftist parties, these were Lebanese parties, just like all political parties that dominated the political seen during that period.
That being said, non of what you said excuses the Lebanese authorities from their responsibilities to defend the country.
You also seem to think that the idea of liberating Palestine is dirty thing.
Though I don’t support the idea of Lebanese taking it upon themselves to liberate Palestine on their own, the Palestinian issue is still noble issue. Until the Palestinian problems resolved, you can be assured that stability in the whole region would be challenge to maintain.
People living in the south, had no option when it came to the PLO’’s presence in Lebanon. It was the irresponsible Lebanese authority who agreed to the Cairo agreement. It was not the southerner who authorised them to operate militarily from the south. PLO was shoved into the throats of Lebanese in general, and the southerners in particular.
It was the failure of the Lebanese forces to protect Lebanese territories, and Lebanese people that opened the way for resistance.
November 8, 2010 at 8:10 pm
Prophet, “It was the irresponsible Lebanese authority who agreed to the Cairo agreement.”
You’re absolutely right about this. This was the beginning of the end of true Lebanese sovereignty. For that we have to thank the weak and hollow leaders of the time (weakness and hollowness continuing to be perpetuated, replaced, in some cases by fanatical belligerence), aided by our Arab “brothers” and supported – let’s admit it – by a section of the Lebanese population who blindly wanted to be Arab first, Arab second, and Arab last.
November 8, 2010 at 8:14 pm
… and now that you got me started, let’s try to explain this Arabism where hundreds of million of Arabs are impotent to claim what they say is their right from a country with 6 Million inhabitants which, even if you include its diaspora, stays at 15 to 16 Million in total. On top of that, the “Arabs” have had the black gold to finance the excesses of some of their ruling class, squandering much of it on behavior that made them the ridicule of the civilized world. My turn to say TFEH.
November 8, 2010 at 8:27 pm
Prophet,
I don’t intend to argue but your rant is full of holes and contradictions to which i am tired to respond in great detail.
I just would like to point out that i did not accuse anyone of being a traitor!. Personally i have no allegiance to your “meskh el watan Lebanon” as Mr. Angry Arab calls it. I consider the presence of the Jews and Israel in the region a blessing and certainly have no animosity towards them. Eventually all this will clear up it may take more wars but at the end peace with our Israeli Zionist Jewish brothers is coming whether your resistance likes it or not.
November 8, 2010 at 10:10 pm
HP,
My friend, its really simple. You don’t need statements (though they have been made) and there is no written charter to change. If the 2009 manifesto’s declaration of working within the Lebanese system is not unambiguous enough for you, you may need to contact their media office.
Secondly, historically, the faction of HA most ardently pushing for an Islamic Republic in Lebanon were forcefully expelled in the late 80′s because they would not give up that goal.
Furthermore, believe it or not it is mostly irrelevant whether or not SHN or HA want an Islamic Republic in Lebanon or not. Without the backing of the Shia community, HA cannot function. And the Shia, contrary to what some may believe, are sophisticated enough to separate the spiritual from the political – And 90% of the Shia would be as aghast at an Islamic Republic in Lebanon as you would. Evidence? The no1 spiritual leader amongst them before his unfortunate death was Fadlallah, and I’m sure you know his thoughts on the Wilayat.
But I’m not here to change your mind, or even put it at ease. I can tell you that I would oppose any attempt at making Lebanon, of all Arab countries, an Islamic state. And I can tell you that every HA supporter I know would also (esp. since a few of them sort of dont much follow the rules).
And on a final note, heres a puzzler. You claim HA want to bring an Islamic system to Lebanon. Others, such as V, claim that HA run “their” areas with threats and intimidation. So heres the riddle. If both the above are true, how is it that their so called areas arent run like Islamic islands in Lebanon? Why is it I see women with heads uncovered and in mini-skirts? I mean, if HA wanted this Islamic republic so bad, and its people so enslaved by the Wilayat, shouldn’t the Dahyieh be like little Tehran?
I am of course being presumptuous in believing that everyone here has been there. Right?
As for Aoun’s alliance with HA. Let me ask you this simple question. Before the agreement, the next civil war was always going to be about the Shia threat to the Christians. Now its all about the Shia-Sunni confrontations? Is it a coincidence? Is it a coincidence that someone is always trying to portray HA and the Shia as a threat to some other party?
HP, my unsolicited advice, which I’m sure will be duly filed under the remember to forget category, is that worry less about the perceived threats about the future, because you have more allies than you think, and worry more about what some people have in store for Lebanon today.
GK,
I am not suggesting that investigations never change their directions. What I am saying is when the lead investigator unambiguously points the finger of blame, he will be doing so either because he has solid evidence or because he has an agenda. If there was solid evidence, there would have been an indictment, so there is only one logical conclusion.
The STL through out evidence that linked Syria to the the plot. Coincidentally, just when Syria and the US were finding common ground.
What I find remarkable is that you, a well read and intelligent man, refuse to consider that a court, STL or otherwise, cannot be manipulated by the investigators or evidence. How many miscarriages of justice have there been in any country in any give time period due to corrupt investigators, policemen or judges?
As to your second question, let me clarify as to what they are doing since I did not make it clear (I am going to avoid the barb about the the 2006 war since we have had the whole “who started it” debate ad infinitum on a 1000 blogs)
What is threat you talk about? As far as I am aware I have heard no threats.
But if you believe that what HA is doing now is causing uncertainty, I and they believe it is nothing to what was planned when the indictments came out. You ask:
“Is it too much to ask that the political wing of HA waits to find out who is indicted and for what before they start a campaign of threats and disobedience”
Again, I have read or heard of no threats (outside of the rabid imaginings of the editors of Naharant) but yes it is too much to ask since without what they are doing now, I believe the “plan” was to use the indictments to try and cause instability.
I think what you do not understand is that we believe that all roads lead to Hizballahs weapons and the STL is just another attempt to allow Israel to not have to fight.
Maybe I will be surprised. Maybe the investigation has CCTV footage of Mughniyeh shaking hands with truck driver just before the explosion. But then again, maybe I won’t.
November 8, 2010 at 10:35 pm
Moe? fashar Ocean Drive in South Beach when it comes to skimpy attire in Dahyieh.
November 8, 2010 at 10:44 pm
Ya UTP, we need you to run for elections! If there were more people like you and like QN in positions of authority in Lebanon, it would be a much different, much better country, and the light at the end of the tunnel would quickly grow and fill the nat on.
November 8, 2010 at 10:45 pm
~nation
November 9, 2010 at 5:25 am
“Like the 18,000 Druze in the Golan Heights, Ghajar residents were Syrians when Israel occupied the region.
But unlike the Druze, the villagers – who are members of the Alawite Islamic minority – accepted Israeli nationality when the Golan was annexed in 1981.
Over the years, the village expanded northward. In 2000, when the UN demarcated the border, Ghajar’s northern half came under Lebanese control and the other half remained Israeli territory.
Israel retook the Lebanese part in its 2006 war against Hezbollah militants, and has since built a security fence to prevent militants from entering the enclave.
In accordance with UN Resolution 1701, which ended Israel’s 33-day war with Hezbollah militants in Lebanon in 2006, Israel is obliged to withdraw from the northern part of the village.“
November 9, 2010 at 6:29 am
HP, if QN and I were in politics we would be in opposition to one another and I wouldn’t stand a chance….
November 9, 2010 at 7:04 am
yea, but you are trustworthy and sincere. I still find the declared faith of SHN in wilayat-al- Faqih to be GENUINE AND HENCE WITH A HIDDEN LONG TERM AGENDA FOR lebanon.
November 9, 2010 at 7:08 am
capitalization unintended. posting from phone. sorry.
November 9, 2010 at 7:46 am
HP,
As a nation we are on an adventure. Lets survive the agenda by crossing the bridges we have in front of us rather than worrying what the bridges to come will look like.
And more importantly, let us not burn the bridges in front of us just because of our fear of the bridges that need to be crossed in the future.
In my very humble opinion, there are some that would like us to fail to cross these bridges by causing conflict; By making their enemy seem like your enemy because they know that two people trying to cross a very unsturdy bridge will have a much harder time in doing so if they are squabbling rather than working together.
Irrespective of whom we lend our support to and whom we believe, if there are hidden agendas, they are as hidden to me as they are to you. What is not hidden is the actions of the here and now.
We all have our political differences.
But only in Lebanon, and this seems to extend even to those of us living abroad, do we make every difference an existential one.
And, in truth, some of them are. But not all of them.
There was divide and conquer, now I believe we are faced with a strategy of divide so we dont have to conquer.
There are many disparaging statements on this blog about Lebanon, its system, its people (bozos I think is the current mot de jure) etc.
But given our size(or lack of), our wealth (or lack of), our inability to be fully sovreign for any length of time, our war footing, I believe we should actually be quite proud of the fact that in so many fields we have achieved what the rest of the Arab world has not; Socially, politically, creatively and yes militarily, we punch well above our weight in this region.
There is a lot to fix, but it can’t be fixed while we allow ourselves to guided by future fears – You the Iranian agenda, me the US agenda. We can only move forward by beleiving that the other has Lebanons interest at heart and act and speak (and yes berate) based on what is done, not what may be done.
Unfortunately, none of the above will happen. The spiral will continue, the end, which is already pencilled in, will unfortuantely be chaotic and violent. As a nation we will come through it, but sadly many will not. After that? Well, like I said before, Lebanon is the home of the Law of Unintended Consequences. What is planned and what pans out will most likely be very very different.
Maybe its at that point QN will jump in as El Presidente (He may have even finished his dissertation by then)
November 9, 2010 at 10:13 am
UTP you’re a poet and I like you.
November 9, 2010 at 10:21 am
Mutual respect and a fondness for one another despite political differences?
A good place to end the conversation and perhaps to start a newer better one.
November 9, 2010 at 11:03 am
On a lighter note.
A few months ago there was a thread about Fusha and the Balkanization of the Arabic language. The following is an email that I received an hour ago:
أتحداك أن
تعرف معاني الكلمات الآتية
زفـــر
غمـــزه
دزعــه
غمـــزه
غمـــزة
زتــــة
دزعــــة
زفــــر
زبــعــــة
زبــعـــــة
الحل
سوداني يعطي صاحبه رقم جواله
0595569077
November 9, 2010 at 11:14 am
I turn my back for a moment only to find UTP and HP whispering sweet nothings to each other? Is this still the Qifa Nabki blog?
I apologize for my absence over the past few days… job applications are very time consuming.
I promise a new blog post later tonight.
November 9, 2010 at 12:16 pm
QN,
I think we have signed a Memorandum of Understanding….:)
November 9, 2010 at 1:52 pm
UTP says “when the lead investigator unambiguously points the finger of blame, he will be doing so either because he has solid evidence or because he has an agenda. If there was solid evidence, there would have been an indictment, so there is only one logical conclusion.”
Quite the contrary, my friend.
If you have an agenda, and plan on simply “fabricating” evidence, then it doesn’t really take 5 years to do so. The STL would’ve indicted whoever they planned to indict within days or weeks of being set up.
The fact that it’s taken so long, in my opinion, is indicative that a true investigation IS indeed being pursued. Investigations do not always yield results overnight. On the other hand, fabricated evidence and agendas can be slapped together in days.
November 9, 2010 at 2:25 pm
Ghassan @357,
I respect everyone right to believe whatever suits them, as long a s it does not interfere with the rights of others. Yes diversity is healthy. Everyone has the right to dissent. I may disagree with you, but I don’t question your rights to dissent.
I’m very pleased, that you and I share the belief, that resistance is a right to be exercised when a state, or sovereignty of state is under attack. I personally would go further and say that resistance is a duty, but that is my opinion.
Although I agree with you that resistance is an idea for all the people, you have to realize that some people decided not want to resist, which was their right. Others, however, decided that there was no enemy to resist at all. Some even thought it was their right not to consider Israel as an enemy. But that is another subject.
I’m not sure I would describe HA resistance as a monopoly. We all know that from 1982, until the day the Taif agreement was signed, the resistance had included many other parties. The Taif agreement, with “the blessing of the international community and the Arab states”, was negotiated to end the civil war that had torn the country apart. Since many of the parties who were part of the resistance, had been involved in the civil war, the decision was made that all have to disarm. There is no denial of the regional influence in the decision to allow HA to become the only party to resist military.
HA had not been involved in the civil war (except for their war against Amal/friendly fire, LOL), so yes it remained the spearhead of the resistance, since all militias (to maintain internal peace were not allowed to carry arms). There is no monopoly on patriotism at all; the liberation of most occupied areas took place when all other parties were still part of the resistance, especially when Israeli troops were spread out in a larger area.
No doubt, the discipline of the resistance was a major factor in its success. This discipline didn’t exist when everyone was part of the military resistance.
As for the democracy part of your argument, I’m not sure that the resistance issue should be the first to address in order to introduce democracy .
Our system needs major reform to become democratic. You can’t pick and choose what issues should be addressed first. You have not made the argument that resistance should be the first on the national agenda to secure democracy.
Vigilantism,as you put it ,is a very harsh description for people who dedicated and lost their lives to liberate their country, at a time where all other Lebanese militias were busy murdering each other,and destroying what remained of the country.
I’ll conclude by saying this; I look forward to the day all parties, including the resistance disarm. I think having the resistance, is more of an asset than a burden.
When all Lebanese territories are returned to Lebanon’s sovereignty, and Lebanon is assured that Israel would not take aggressive actions against its territories or people, is the day that last bullet should be handed to the Lebanese army. I would not support a resistance until the liberation of Palestine, as some advocate, even if I believe the Palestinian issue to be the core cause of instability in the region.
November 9, 2010 at 3:03 pm
V@ 361
I won’t argue with you either. I understand that you and I are on opposite ends of this debate.
It is obvious that you enjoy being with your Jewish brothers at the country that was not yours, and you are will to do and say anything to maintain that ,and I respect that.
That being said, You have no right non what so ever to be involved in the debate of the Lebanese e resistance . You can not be objective or impartial in your views when Lebanese debate this issue. Your input might be of use to the Israeli debate on whether your state has the desire to make peace or not. I would be more than happy to debate the question of peace or war with you, but not our right to resist ,nor the method we should use to resist your aggression and occupation.
What you consider to be a blessing ,has been nothing but a misery to the Palestinian people.
This may be this is a good topic you’d like to debate .
November 9, 2010 at 3:18 pm
Second sentence should have said:It is obvious that you enjoy being with your Jewish brothers at the country that was not yours, and you are willing to do and say anything to maintain that ,and I respect that.
Last sentence should have said: This may be a good topic to debate.
November 9, 2010 at 4:49 pm
TO Prophet
You said:
What you consider to be a blessing ,has been nothing but a misery to the Palestinian people.
Any time a Lebanese will play that sanctimonous game I will say that so was Lebanon to 100% of the Lebanese Jews. We have been here before. Two wrongs do not negate each other, but there were two wrongs. Nobody is clean and perfect and in a position to preach.
When 100% of the people of Ghajar will give away their Israeli citizenship for Lebanese citizenship we will have additional things to talk about.
Talking about misery, as far as I know Palestinians under Israel with Israeli citizenship or not are in general less miserable than the Palestinians in Lebanon.
It may not be a fair or honest argument, but they ARE better off. As I am saying all the time, it is all very complicated and not that simple black and white. No body is perfect or near it and all have made mistakes that can only be partially corrected if at all.
Talking about security and such. If I remember correctly [ and I do ] the last killing on the Israel Lebanon border of both Israelis and Lebanese was when an Israeli officer was shot from Lebanon on Israeli soil. So said the UN several times. It should not happen very often if the good people of Lebanon want to be safe and secure.
As was said here by others, weapons in the hands of some people, Israeli and Lebanese, make them think that they are demigods. That is bad ! HA has aleady put a claim to villages inside Israel. So as long as HA, realy Iran, is dictating the war/peace ballance in Lebanon there always be resistance and a need for resistance. The fact that some people belonging to the resistance are making good money in the single air port and the numerous passes between Syria and Lebanon does not deminish the need for eternal resistance.
As for what you said about V. I too enjoy being a Jew in Israel and not being a Jew in Lebanon or in any other place in the world where I will be under HA or the like of it.
So, if the good people of Lebanon, or others, will try to take that joy away from me there will be hell to pay. Resistance can work both ways or many ways, you know. Presently there are no others to help Lebanon in such a job, though next week such others may or will come. So why would the good people of Lebanon take, by them selves, that job right now, presently ?I do not know. It sound from your words, I hope I am wrong, that some of them are serious about it. Too bad for all of us.
November 9, 2010 at 5:31 pm
Prophet,
I think you are a bit confused and jumping to conclusions.
I am not Israeli; I am Lebanese or was once if you prefer. Born in Khiam South Lebanon. I still go to Beirut and Khiam and enjoy Frakeh and Tabooleh sometimes but also can go to Jerusalem when I please.
As for the suffering of the Palestinians I can assure you they suffered so much more at the hands of their Lebanese “Brothers” just look up the massacres at Tal el Zaatar, Karantina, Sabra, Shatila and Nahr el Bared and don’t forget Nabih Berri’s 2 year campaign against the camps ordered by his masters in Damascus.
You are free to jump to more conclusions and accuse me of being a traitor a spy or a former SLA like Mo used to do, go ahead it’s what you people know how to do best .
November 9, 2010 at 6:55 pm
“As for the suffering of the Palestinians I can assure you they suffered so much more at the hands of their Lebanese “Brothers” just look up the massacres at Tal el Zaatar, Karantina, Sabra, Shatila and Nahr el Bared and don’t forget Nabih Berri’s 2 year campaign against the camps ordered by his masters in Damascus.”
This. End of story.
November 9, 2010 at 7:00 pm
V, thank for clarifying that. Not accusing you of anything, though you sounded more Israeli than most Israelis .
You just fall into the category of those who decided that Israel is not their enemy. Whether you were with the SLA or not , I would not know, nor do I really care. Those low life people got what they deserved anyway.
All I care about is whether you have, in this case, the right to debate our resistance rights or not. Since our enemy isn’t yours, you stay out of the resistance debate all together. There is nothing you can add to this debate, we know where you stand. Ghassan and I are in agreement on the resistance question, but you and I are not.
I will agree with you though, that Lebanese were as brutal to the Palestinians, living in Lebanon. I admit that, not to make the Israelis feel better about their treatments of Palestinians, but because I have the courage to admit mistakes, while many Israelis do not have the courage.
That being said, mistreatments of Palestinians by Lebanese, does not in any way give any excuse to Israel to commit crimes against Palestinians. Nor does excuse Israel from respecting all UN resolutions regarding the Israeli Arab conflict.
November 9, 2010 at 7:23 pm
Rani, 380
If it makes you feel less guilt that Palestinians were mistreated by Lebanese, then be it. That makes no difference to all the Palestinians who were thrown out of their homes and towns 64 years ago. It makes no difference to the people of the west bank whose territories are being confiscated every day.
It makes no difference to the residence of Ghaza, who have suffered for over 40 years at the brutal hands of Israel. The facts are facts, that Israel is systematically uprooting Palestinians, discriminating against them, and abusing every right they have.
Your threatening tone won’t make a difference either. If a war is to take place, it will destructive to both sides. But, gone are the days where Israel dictates when and how every war will end. Gone a re the days where Israeli troops can just walk over the border at will. Historically, Israel could do anything it wanted any time it wanted, well, that has changed; everything has a price now.
I’m glad you mentioned the border incident where three Lebanese soldiers were lost, and Two Israeli soldiers killed. As sad as it was that it cost Lebanon three dear soldiers, it was just a good example of the deterrence that exists at the border.
As for your mention of resistance, at least you gave yourself the right to resist if “your country is invaded”. Hopefully, V will be inspired by your patriotism, and willingness to defend what you believe is yours.
November 9, 2010 at 7:35 pm
Prophet,
You have my sincere respect for your courage in acknowledging that we are at fault.
many and the majority of those who champion the resistance cause whether now or in the past days of leftist revolutionaries refuse to do so and always demonized and depicted the Israelis as being the only source of our problems this is wrong and serves only as a recruiting and brainwashing tool.
The day we start looking at and admitting our share of faults and responsibility for the ills of our society is the day we start truly solving our problems.
There are folks in Israel who have the freedom to question demand and hold accountable their governments for anything including the issue of Palestinian treatment and the peace process. Do you have that freedom in your Lebanese or Syrian society? No you don’t.
It is only logical to start with your own problems and their cause. If you want to resist you have to resist tyranny in your own backyard first.
November 9, 2010 at 7:54 pm
I am not inspired by yours or anyone else’s patriotism.
I will borrow this from Ghassan Karam and Samuel Johnson “Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.”
It is more honorable to feed a child or help a poor person in need than to defend all the borders in the world.
November 9, 2010 at 7:55 pm
That being said, mistreatments of Palestinians by Lebanese, does not in any way give any excuse to Israel to commit crimes against Palestinians.
“low life people” NewZ
Prophet,
Speaking of “resistance” and the treatment of Palestinians in Lebanon, how mortars and Katyushas have the Palestinian “resistance movements” fire against Lebanese population centers?
I’m just trying to figure out why the Palestinians in Lebanon were treated so badly.
November 9, 2010 at 8:08 pm
V, I’m not sure where you live, but I can assure you that Lebanese suffer from extra freedom of expression. We may not have, the ideal ,and democratic system, but as far as freedom, we have more than can use. Freedom of expression is being g abuse in Lebanon. What Lebanese lack, though, is the courage to examine their history and actions? This has been my problem with Lebanese leaders, and especially warlords, is they are all in denial about their history and crimes.
I’ve always called on Lebanese leaders, and people to start healing themselves by examining and admitting mistakes they have made, in the hope that they learn from their mistakes. It is not a secret that most Lebanese warship their leaders, and fallow them blindly.
I can’t speak for the Syrians, but I will presume that they do not enjoy the level of freedom , Lebanese do.
It is not my job to resist tyranny in other countries. It is my hope that all Arab countries become heaven for freedom. But my responsibility is for Lebanon first and foremost.
My responsibility, as a Lebanese, is defending my own. It is my responsibility, and my duty to work with my fellow Lebanese to make my country democratic, not Syria. I leave that to the Syrians.
Once we, Lebanese, have established the democracy we desire, we will have the right to lecture others on democracy. No one is asking you not to criticize the lack of freedom and democracy in Syria or any other country, but I’m asking you to be patriotic in your own country , before you change other countries by resisting their tyranny.
November 9, 2010 at 8:10 pm
AP, “I’m just trying to figure out why the Palestinians in Lebanon were treated so badly.”
Hmm, good question.
So, let’s see. Lebanon had Armenian refugees back in the beginning of the 20th century, who came in, worked hard, conformed to rules, assimilated, were productive, peaceful, contributed to the society and its improvement, got assimilated, became part of the political structure, and now are as or more Lebanese than any of the staunch “Phoenician type” Lebanese.
Palestinians came, huddled in camps, decided to liberate Palestine starting from Lebanon, armed themselves, made a mockery out of the Lebanon’s sovereignty, protected criminals in their camps, preventing the Lebanese lawful security forces for pursuing them in there, sought, through intimidation and Arab solidarity to legitimize their usurpation of Lebanese sovereignty, launched attacks against Israel (with whom Lebanon had no dispute up to that point), in the utterly ridiculous and foolish goal of “liberating” Palestine, caused horrible retaliation by Israel which punished both Palestinians and Lebanese with no distinction, participated in the civil war, and, need I go on?
Go back to my post above where I wonder why is it that hundreds of millions of Arabs are impotent against a mere 6 million Israelis, which, even if you include the diaspora, amount to no more than 16 million.
Did some Lebanese commit abject and inhuman crimes in showing their hate of Palestinians. Of course. They should be condemned with the most severe punishment of history, just like the devout and fanatical Jew who massacred muslims in a mosque in the West Bank. Criminals and savages exist everywhere and should be condemned. Just like the criminals who killed the Israeli athletes in Munich, etc.
But if you filter that criminal element out, and compare how the “people” behaved, how the refugees behaved, comparing the Armenians to the Palestinians, you get your answer AP.
Do we, Lebanese and those of Lebanese origin, blame also Israel? Of course we do. Neither the Israelis nor the Palestinians are our friends. They both caused destruction in our country. They fought and continue to fight their battle on our soil.
November 9, 2010 at 8:24 pm
… I know, I have a sneaky feeling that AIG is going to come in and tell me that even without Israel, Lebanon was going to have the problems between Christians and Muslims, between an eventual HA rising, etc.
To that I say, we simply don’t know that. We know one thing for sure, that because of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, a huge imbalance and conflict were created in Lebanon. There is no point speculating about what would have happened without that. For all we know, Lebanon could have evolved into a true model of co-existence. See, prosperity across the board yields peace and happiness. But with the conflicts as they happened, there was no hope of prosperity.
So, without denying the possibility of conflict regardless of the Palestinian problem we cannot assert its inevitability either. And, in any case, it would have been a purely internal Lebanese problem. Many countries have had civil wars and emerged after them to a peaceful and prosperous state of events. Not so in Lebanon. The culprit: foreign intervention, from every side, using Lebanon as a battlefield.
As always, I reiterate that surely the Lebanese have a lot to improve and we can write pages after pages listing our failures as a people. But none of that justifies the injustice inflicted upon our people from the foreign interventions from whichever side they came.
November 9, 2010 at 8:25 pm
Akbar palace,
Not sure what you are getting at here. It is no secret that the presence of 500 thousand Palestinians and the presence of the PLO had created issues for Lebanese factions that ended with a civil war. It is no secret that many Lebanese have a racist attitude toward the average Palestinian refugee living in Lebanon.
Having the PLO dominates Lebanon, and the wars fought by the PLO were, unfairly, costly to the civilian population living in Lebanon.
The idea of resistance against Israeli occupation has nothing to do with the mistreatment of Palestinians. Those are two different issues.
Just because I, and many Lebanese admit that Lebanon mistreated Palestinians, Our right and duty to defend against Israel does not change.
That does not change the fact that Israel has brutally treated Palestinians, nor does it change the fact that Israel has uprooted them from their land, and still, refuses to make peace based on two state solution, where those who you showed concern for, can go back home.
November 9, 2010 at 8:41 pm
HP,
I disagree with you. it is a known fact that the imbalance was already there, it manifested itself by a group of Lebanese siding with the PLO and the left against their own government and the Lebanese system that they viewed as unjust, inequality and injustice that was rampant in the South was the main cause behind the Southerners taking up arms with the Palestinians, had they been privileged like the Maronites of Keserwan for example i doubt they would have been easily recruited as cannon fodder.
November 11, 2010 at 7:57 am
Lebanese Forces leader Samir Geagea responded last Wednesday by saying that all of the alleged false witnesses used are Syrians and most of them belong to the Syrian intelligence agency, according to a statement from his press office. He also pointed out that the four generals who were detained in 2005 for their alleged involvement in Hariri’s murder were released in 2009 because of lack of sufficient evidence and not because they were innocent.
this is essentially a legal problem. To use witnesses who used to be suspects and were released not because they were found to be innocent, but because of a lack of evidence is in direct contravention with the basic principles of international law and the principles of lebanese domestic law. therefore on these grounds alone, without regard to what has been said by the “witnesses” these are indeed “false” or at least illegitimate witnesses.