Apologies for the current hiatus from posting. I’m in Beirut, attending a symposium about Arab cultural history hosted by the Orient-Institut and AUB, and have been occupied with matters medieval. Next week, I should have a chance to weigh in on the latest developments in Lebanonistan.
In the meantime, check out this essay contest launched by the Brookings Institution’s Doha Center. I suspect that it may be of some interest to the prolific comment-thread participants on this blog.
December 9, 2010 at 5:43 pm
Who’s the substitute teacher? Is he/she degreed?
December 10, 2010 at 10:25 am
The symposium is onto a real challenge here… To argue against the supposition of decline after the “Golden Age” of the Arab world is a tough ask. I suppose by concetrating on literature and culture its easier since they get to sidestep the big issues. But when was this “nahda” supposed to have happened?
December 10, 2010 at 11:05 pm
What’s going on? Why is it so quite?
Asange is still in jail. Al-Akhbar is off line, and now QN himself seems to have abandoned us.
Anyway, in case you wonder. There is lots going on:
Aoun is very unhappy over Brigadier General Karam’s judicial proceedings and the possible hard labour sentence on treason charges. But FPM MP Nabil Nicola publicly threatens Major General Rifi will pay the price for Karam’s ‘humiliation’.
HA seems not to care the least about Aoun’s predicament. HA sources believe ‘false witnesses’ have something to do with Karam’s indictment and it may well turn out the alleged treason encounters with enemies of the confederation were fabricated ‘as usual’. But who knows? It may turn out HA may have been in collusion with MoD Murr’s plan to blow up Mon General by Hizbi bodyguards. HNA will eventually make everything clear at the end of ‘Ashoura.
Bashar Assad agreed after dining with Sarkozy and Carla that he can after all live with an STL indictment supported by some ‘clear’ evidence. Parisian cuisine may have had an effect. Looks like he’s had enough of basmati rice, kebab and chicken.
Jumblat, on the other hand is still the master acrobat in Lebanon Stan and will not be outdone by Mon General. Jumblat now supports STL and also peace and security in the federation.
Ministers in the council of ministers of Lebanon Stan still do not meet. Hariri will attend next Wednesday’s organized meeting only if no voting is called on certain issues.
December 11, 2010 at 7:32 am
Sorry to burst your bubble anonymous…These are not new lol.
December 11, 2010 at 2:53 pm
Greetings from Beirut Lebanonistan, its very windy, most of those ugly billboards fell down, its miserably wet and MEA lost my luggage!sometimes i think they do it to me on purpose.
December 12, 2010 at 2:22 pm
In QN’s absence, does anyone have any thoughts about what is possible by way of this much touted Syrian-Saudi compromise on the STL?
What would be a scenario in which each side has actually compromised? Has HA left itself any room for compromise? Does Hariri have any room for compromise? Do either of them actually have anything to put on the table?
December 12, 2010 at 3:43 pm
Johnathan,
All the talk about finding a compromise regarding the expected indictment and eventually the trial of the accused is misguided.
The STL is , as it stands, an international organization, set up on the behest of Lebanon under a chapter 7 of the UNSC. Indictments will be issued and trials held. Nothing can change that. So what is it that can be changed? The implications of the findings . The Lebanese are free to interpret the findings any way they so choose. If ; and it is a big if; the STL finds that the plannersand those that carried forward the assassination of former prime minister Rafic Hariri belonged to a group the STL will most probably accuse individuals and not organizations that these individuals belonged to. It is up to the Lebanese public to draw its own conclusions about the culpability of people behind the scenes and they will have to decide whether they want to continue to support such organizations or not. But this has nothing to do with the STL. It is a completely different matter and may I submit that it is the only thing that HA is worried about. They fear that they will be smeared beyond redemption if the evidence does show conclusively that those behind the assassination were closely connected to them.There is nothing that will change the course of the indictments by the STL. After all that was the whole idea behind setting it up wasn’t it? We cannot set up an organization to investigate and then accept the findings only if they are in our favour and dismiss them if they are not. That is not how a judicial system works.
December 12, 2010 at 6:15 pm
Ghassan
“They fear that they will be smeared beyond redemption if the evidence does show conclusively that those behind the assassination were closely connected to them.”
Off course they will. They will be accused of ordering the hit. After all the prosecution has to provide motive why these ‘random’ individuals who had one thing in common; that is being member of this party’s “intelligence” wing.
The prosecution has to provide why this group assassinated Hariri? The motive will point squarely to HA and most likely Syria.
December 12, 2010 at 6:40 pm
Ghassan,
I agree with you that all the talks about finding compromise are meaningless.
The STL indictment is out already, the evidence is out already, the names of the accused are known already, and maybe the verdict is out already. I think the accusations will be against individual, and eventually against organizations. The STL has giving itself the right to indict as it goes. Indictment can, according to new STL rules, be brought out in stages as developments require.
Lebanese have already interpreted the indictment and the evidence.
There are no secrets anymore. All they waiting for, is an official stamp on a hard copy of the indictment.
Discredited witnesses, false accusations, dead-end investigations and three separate, failed prosecutors in 5 years, and Political influence from every western country don’t mean a thing.Credibility does not mean a thing.The UN does not mean a thing.
The evidence is based on Cellular records, and if needed, they can easily find witnesses some people to fabricate stories.
Lebanese Telephone Companies have been infiltrated at highest levels, by Israel. They had their hands in the phone records for a reason or two. No doubt that evidence has been compromised.
No where else in the world would evidence that had been tampered with be presentable as evidence .But again this is the UN, any thing goes.
Discredited witnesses, false accusations, dead-end investigations and three separate, failed prosecutors in 5 years, and Political influence from every western country don’t mean a thing. They will try people and organizations in absentee, and verdicts are ready to be passed.
When they officially put out the indictment, we will remind each other , that this Tribunal has no secrets.
When they put out the verdict, we’ll remind each other, that the verdict had been issued long time ago.
At this point, the least of my concerns are the indictment. My concern is whether there will be a country called Lebanon, by the time they decide to put out the verdict.
December 12, 2010 at 7:38 pm
Prophet,
We all know from day one Hizbistan and Syria killed Hariri and every other victim that follows.
Come on now why are you presenting us with such a cheap lamentation about Lebanon Stan? As if anyone would believe countries can be built upon murders and by murderers.
But it can only happen with Hizbistan as the saying goes:ضربني وبكى سبقني واشتكى
I found it most ridiculous one night when I was in martyr square and hizbi men brought in a picture of HNA to be placed next to the grave of Hariri showing them both in the same picture claiming one was a liberator while the other was a mere builder. It looks like Hizbstan will take any opportunity even as morbid as it may be to stage any kind of PR to show off.
You guys should hide be ashamed of yourselves instead of arguing as you do here and in other blogs.
December 12, 2010 at 8:00 pm
anonymous,
I have nothing to be ashamed of. If you don’t agree with my views, that is fine with me.Your name calling ,and personal attacks are uncalled for.I will not allow myself to be provoked by your attacks.I won’t respond with insults or name calling. I will maintain respect for this forum.
You know nothing about what I think or believe.You have no idea who I support, if any.
You have not supported your reply with any logic or evidence, unless you believe in sealed indictments.
Had the UN known that you are such a genius,and that you knew all the facts, they would have hired you to investigate this case, and get it over with.You would have saved the Lebanese treasury millions of dollars.
December 12, 2010 at 8:14 pm
“Discredited witnesses, false accusations, dead-end investigations and three separate, failed prosecutors in 5 years, and Political influence from every western country don’t mean a thing.Credibility does not mean a thing.The UN does not mean a thing.”
Prophet, I assume this is just an opinion of yours and you do not believe that they are facts!
There has been one prosecutor so far and it is Bellemare. Either you do not know the process or you seem to making up ala HA style as you are going on.
Mehlis and Brammertz as well as Bellemare were Commissioners of UNIIIC NOT prosecutors of STL!
December 12, 2010 at 8:53 pm
“Had the UN known that you are such a genius, and that you knew all the facts, they would have hired you to investigate this case, and get it over with. You would have saved the Lebanese treasury millions of dollars.”
But the UN doesn’t mean anything to you according to your previous comment. And also the UN would do anything to fabricate evidence and bend the rules and that is all according to your own argument. So why would the UN care to save money belonging to Lebanon Stan and seek advice from ‘geniuses’ like me?
Come on straighten out your logic before asking logic from others. Is the UN engaged in a legitimate pursuit or is it simply bogus? It cannot be both, right? Which comment would you like to keep? Either #9 or #11. Can’t have it both ways, my friend! BY the way, do you think that UNIFIL which is a UN force doing a good job in South Lebanon? Before you answer, think of the more than 500000 South Lebanon villagers who were driven out of their homes as a result of Hizbistan’s ‘divine’ battle in 2006 and were only able to go back to their land when UNIFIL took positions in the south. Had it not been for UNIFIL we would be calling them refugees now and perhaps they would be living n camps just like other refugees we know about.
And there were no personal name calling in my previous comment unless you’re part of hizbistan.
On another note and speaking of name calling hizbistan MP Raad revokes his previous pronouncements in which he used every word in the dictionary of street talk levelling threats on every one using such terms as’ let them tile the sea’ and issuing few days ultimatums unless Lebanon Stan submits to hizbistan’s edicts in dealing with the so-called ‘false witnesses’.
December 12, 2010 at 9:59 pm
Danny,
I did make a mistake,
I meant to say three different commissioners. I’m aware of the fact that bellemare was the last commissioner of the UNIIIC, and later on He was appointed a prosecutor.
Anonymous,
I don’t speak for M. Raad, nor do I agree with what He had said anyway.
I speak only for myself, and present my own personal views.
To me, the UN never meant anything. I have had this view of the UN since it lost its credibility years ago. I’m surprised that people tolerate their presence in south Lebanon, unless they are adding something to the local economy.
I didn’t have faith of the UNIFILL when they first came in 1978, and, I don’t have any faith of them now. They are useless, and they never add anything to Lebanon’s safety.
The 500000 southerners started going back to their villages before the UNIFILL forces started arriving. You really need to review your information on the sequence of events that took place, when the war ended. There had been few thousand UN troops in place prior to the war of 2006, which could not save their butts, or the civilians who made the mistake of seeking their base for safety.
So people didn’t return, because of the security and safety provided by the UNIFILL.
These UN Troops never gave the southerners any sense of security, and they will never do. They have always been impotent, and teeth less.
The UNIIIC was established by the UN; Therefore the UN is responsible for the conduct of the UNIIC, and STL. I didn’t say the UN, directly fabricated evidence or witnesses. I implied that the UNIIIC and/or had fabricated and/ or tolerated fabrications of witnesses and evidence.
The STL has wasted every opportunity to salvage its credibility; there fore anything it does will be questionable.
I Can keep both comments; #9 and #11. Had they picked you to do the inquiry, You would have had your report out in a day or two, since you seem to have known who killed Hariri from day one. That’s where you could have saved Lebanon some money, and the UN as, not-credible, as it is, would have accepted your conclusion right away.
December 12, 2010 at 10:02 pm
CORRECTION:I implied that the UNIIIC and the STL had fabricated and tolerated fabrications of witnesses and evidence.
December 12, 2010 at 10:40 pm
“The 500000 southerners started going back to their villages before the UNIFILL forces started arriving. You really need to review your information on the sequence of events that took place, when the war ended. There had been few thousand UN troops in place prior to the war of 2006, which could not save their butts, or the civilians who made the mistake of seeking their base for safety.”
The war ended when 1701 was declared passed by the UN security council. So with your own logic, the Southerners began their trek back to their land after the UN helped bring the war to an end. Had the war not ended, these sourherners would be refugees now. Do you agree? (Unless you want to contradict yourself again which is completely up to you.)
Second, the war started by Hizbistan provocation. How would UNIFIL save the Southerners’ butts in this case? I hope you’re not blaming UNIFIL for the southereners plight after the war started.
MP Raad comments were not addressed to you personally.
December 12, 2010 at 11:15 pm
“The STL has wasted every opportunity to salvage its credibility; there fore anything it does will be questionable.”
Prophet for a smart guy you sound a bit lovestruck with HA logic.
STL released the four Generals for lack of evidence to hold them. They have gone out of their way inviting journalists to explain to them the transparency of the court and the process. That should give a positive view not the one you are expressing.
You keep on harping on “false witness” hatched issue by HA/Syria/Iran. If you knew anything about the legal system(which I’m quite certain you do) you would not make statements that have no meaning. The trial has not started yet. No indictments have been issued and yet you are ready to attack the credibility of a court. There has been no trials and yet you are attacking some witnesses! What witnesses?
That makes you a brainwashed and scared sectarian HA apologist as you seem to fear that your divine protection might be broken. You sound like a subdued person who’s looking for protection from the mafioso protectors. Time to let go of your fears and wait for due process to take its course. You pass judgments too quickly out of fear or guilt.
December 12, 2010 at 11:20 pm
anonymous,
In your comment #15, you said: “think of the more than 500000 South Lebanon villagers who were driven out of their homes as a result of Hizbistan’s ‘divine’ battle in 2006 and were only able to go back to their land when UNIFIL took positions in the south. Had it not been for UNIFIL we would be calling them refugees now and perhaps they would be living n camps just like other refugees we know about.”
I replied with the following: “The 500000 southerners started going back to their villages before the UNIFILL forces started arriving”.
I stand by my comment that they didn’t wait for the UNIFIL to arrive or take positions so that they start returning.
In your comment # 16, you twisted things around, and brought in 1701.This is a different subject. The fact that 1701 officially ended the war (no cease fire yet) does not mean that I Warship the UN or the UNIFIL forces.
1701 was negotiated by all parties involved. It is not a gift from the UN. Israel needed 1701 as much as Lebanon. I truly think that Lebanon could have negotiated a better agreement, had it had a patriotic government in place.
If you are asking me to be thankful for the UN FOR PASSING 1701, I’d say to you that I’m not thankful at all because 1701 was negotiated by the out of necessity to save the Israeli government ,and its leadership. They didn’t do it to save Lebanese civilians. If any of the UN Security Council members really cared about Lebanese civilians, they would never have allowed, and encouraged Israel to conduct this war.
If you read GW BUSH’S book, you would understand that it was the US which was pushing Israel to continue the war. Not to forget some of our fellow Lebanese either, who were part of this ploy.
So again, I’m not thankful for the UN at all for 1701.The UN is nothing but a front for powerful members of the council to conduct their policies.1701 forced itself on everyone.
How about all the wars Israel had waged against Lebanon before that? How about the occupation of 20 years? How about the massacres that took place in the 40’s 50’s and 60’s? Did HA, which had not even been conceived yet, provoke them? I won’t mention the 70’s so you would not tell me it was the PLO’s provocations.
I come from a town which had been totally destroyed during that War
This same town had been attacked tens of times, since the creation of Israel. I grew up, spending sleepless nights in small underground cellars. I witnessed how useless the UN forces are. Don’t come back accusing me of being HA, just because I don’t have faith in the UN. I resisted Israel before ha was around. I don’t need HA tell me who my enemy is. I don’t need HA to convince me of anything.
I’m done for the day; back to work tomorrow.
December 12, 2010 at 11:22 pm
danny,
Sorry,but I have to work tomorrow. I will respond to your comment tomorrow.
Read my response to anonymous#18, It should answer part of your question anyway.
December 12, 2010 at 11:23 pm
Anonymous,
I am not a fan of Hizballah; however i am a fan of the people of South Lebanon since I am one of them. I cannot help but detect in many of your posts the arrogance and racism of the typical Lebanese or should i say phoenician rightwing militias of the past and i think you need to reconsider your condescending and at times racial comments. Regardless of your political views, when you talk about a very large portion of the Lebanese who experienced a devastating war in 2006 you should have some respect and sensitivity to what they went thru and do not think the people of South Lebanon will ever be refugees even if they settle in the heart of Jounieh and Keserwan. Lebanon belongs to all the Lebanese and you should be ashamed for gloating at the plight of your fellow Lebanese during a war whether it was their fault or not.
Have some decency please.
December 12, 2010 at 11:56 pm
V.,
I have never been condescending to the people of the south in general. If you happen to have an extra sensitive detection mechanism then that is something I cannot do much about.
With regards to me calling the southerners who migrated from their villages refugees as a result of Hizbistan’s adventure, it is no more than a statement of fact and please do not read any imaginary implications into it. Yes we do know that they can settle in schools and shelters in Kesrwan and Jounieh for a while. But God forbid their situation got prolonged what will they be called? You tell me – particularly the dispossessed.
I used the term simply for the sake of argument with an apparently intelligent person who is dumb struck with a logic that defies any common sense. And for the record no apologies are due to anyone.
But thanks for the observation. No personal offence intended.
December 13, 2010 at 4:51 am
danny #17
“STL released the four Generals for lack of evidence to hold them.”
3 years too late, the investigation is comprimised it is not impartial.
” “Leaked WikiLeaks cables obtained by The Daily Star quote STL investigator Serge Brammertz telling US diplomats in 2006 that four Lebanese generals held by the STL were detained without legal basis but releasing them “would be a political disaster for Lebanon.” “
December 13, 2010 at 6:17 am
tamer STL was not holding the Generals. Also, I do not trust leaks of any kind. Those cables that have been written by a civil servant reflect his/her interpretation and we do not know within what context.
I do not believe in hearsay.
December 13, 2010 at 9:56 am
Prophet #18,
After giving us your cheap lamentation about Leabnonistan in #9 you come back to us with a shameless rehash of of the stupidity that HNA keeps feeding the gullible. And you claim that you’re not HA and that we know nothing about you?
You really have no shame and actually we do know a lot about you. You’re are as clear as clear can be.
Nevertheless, I am not a fan of long speeches particulaly the HNA type of nonsense.
You did not answer the main question. Did HNA neeedlessly provoke the war of 2006 which caused your plight and the plight of the other southerners? What could UNIFIL do for you and for the other southerners after the war started?
December 13, 2010 at 12:42 pm
Thanks for posting your personnal accounts of life in Southern Lebanon.
Does this person’s POV count? Discuss amonst yourselves….
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=brigitte+gabriel&rlz=1R2ADFA_enUS407&aq=5s&aqi=g1g-s1g1g-s3g1g-s3&aql=&oq=Bridgett+&gs_rfai=CC2Olc0sGTePrE6eMggSv3sjSCQAAAKoEBU_QRBnh
December 13, 2010 at 1:47 pm
AP,
You sure are entitled to bring to the readers of the blog the story of Ms. Gabriel, just in case someone has missed it by know. But you are not entitled to your snide remarks,actually they are very much unwelcomed by this reader.
December 13, 2010 at 2:00 pm
It has been almost three years since the experiment of consensus governance has been started in Lebanon. The only tangible thing that we have to show for it is the HA and allies ministers withdrawing from the previous cabinet and then the March 14 delegation headed by the Prime Minister Sa’ad Hariri doing anything but holding a cabinet meeting. Isn’t it about time that we declare this experiment in governance a total failure?
I am willing to give those who thought that this arrangement will work the benefit of the doubt and will not judge either the motive or the rationality of the original decision but now that the evidence is in it is abundantly clear that none of the parties has made any real gains and that the Lebanese citizen is a clear looser.
It would be unconscionable for any of the parties to insist that this unworkable and irrational arrangement be carried forward.
December 13, 2010 at 2:03 pm
AP,
I had read about her. What’s your point? She has a different opinion. Should everyone in the world have only one?
December 13, 2010 at 6:47 pm
Danny,
The STL had no choice but to release the four officers. The STL had nothing on them. They should have never spent four years in jail without due process. It became an embarrassment to the STL and to the Lebanese authorities to keep them in jail for no reason.
The fact that those four officers spent four years, based on false testimony, proves that either false witnesses or discredited witnesses do exist.
The first commissioner of the UNIIIC had issued few reports accusing Syria of assassinating HARIRI, because of some false testimony; false testimony means false witnesses.
I’m not brain washed by anyone. I’m just stating facts. I don’t claim to be a legal expert either, but many legal experts are saying exactly what I’m saying.
You are right that the trial didn’t officially begin, nor has the indictment been officially put out, but why then, were those officers in jail for four years? The STL has never explained this. Thy always blamed the Lebanese authority when new all know that it was the head of the UNIIIC who had ordered their arrest. I won’t mention the wikileaks and what was revealed about that.
All the evidence we see, indicates that this whole investigation has been impartial, and most likely the evidence has been compromised.
AP, this isn’t worth responding to.
anonymous,
There you go again, accusing people of being shameless and so on.
I’m proud of everything I believe in, I’m proud of where I came from, I’m proud of being a defender of Lebanon’s sovereignty where it really counts. Unlike you, I do care about Lebanon’s territorial sovereignty. Unlike you, I DO NOT distinguish between Lebanese based on what region they come from , nor do I generalize based on sectarian or regional background. I’m a proud secular Lebanese who is willing to defend every Lebanese regardless of their faith or political views.
If that makes me a shameless person, then be it; I’M SHAMLESS. Shameless is a step ahead of being a coward. I refuse to die cowardly.
It makes no difference whether HA did or didn’t provoke 2006 war. There are plenty of opinions on that subject.
Whether HA did or didn’t provoke the 2006 war, Nothing justifies the killings and destructions brought on by Israel on Lebanon. The abduction of two soldiers can never be a n excuse for Israel to wage a n all out wars. If your trying to get me to answer your question , so that you can justify Israel’s war, and all the killings it did, I’m sure you do not need my answer, You have justified this already. You consider that abduction of two soldiers justifies the killing of 1400 people. If there is anything shameless, this is.
Following your logic, Every time Israel kidnaps a Lebanese from across the border, Lebanon has the right to wage an all out war against Israel. Following your logic, You would agree then, that the Israeli violation of Lebanon’s airspace and land should be considered an excuse to launch an all out war against Israel
December 13, 2010 at 7:47 pm
Prophet #29
Why are you getting so excited and jumping to conclusions? Who’s trying to justify the killings of 1400 Lebanese?
You’re shameless because you’re defending an organization that behaves in a manner that threatens the very existence of the State you claim to be proud of. You’re using verbatim the text of a demagogue who hijacked the legitimacy of the State that you want to be its citizen. You are shameless because you’re defending an organization that may well turn out to be behind the worst political assassinations in the history of the country you want to co-exist with its various communities. You’re shameless because you refuse to acknowledge that this demagogue in the name of his ‘divine prerogatives’ was behind your plight and many others like you.
You claim to be secular and you want us to believe you? Give me a break, will you? You’ve put shame itself into shame.
But that would still make you proud of yourself, right?
December 13, 2010 at 8:04 pm
AP,
You sure are entitled to bring to the readers of the blog the story of Ms. Gabriel, just in case someone has missed it by know. But you are not entitled to your snide remarks,actually they are very much unwelcomed by this reader.
GK,
What snide remark are you referring to? Did I say something wrong?
I had read about her. What’s your point? She has a different opinion. Should everyone in the world have only one?
Danny,
No. That’s why I linked to it. I was wondering if her POV was worth noting.
Prophet said:
AP, this isn’t worth responding to.
Can you give me a reason? Why is that? Why does Brigitte Gabriel’s experience in Lebanon get ignored or make people “uneasy”?
December 13, 2010 at 9:18 pm
AP, I’m not uneasy with Brigitte Gabriel’s POV or experience.
The issue I have is that it is a monochromatic view that does not allow for the good in non-Christian Lebanese, does not admit the horrible crimes committed by Christian Lebanese and sidesteps the fundamental unfairness perpetrated towards the Palestinians during the founding of Israel.
Brigitte makes many good and valid points and, certainly, the Arabs would be well served engaging in some significant reform across all areas – from social justice to equal treatment and respect of women to evolution to a secular societal structure with fundamental respect for civics and fair treatment of all religions. At the same time, I think that reforms are required in Israel as well, by way of bucking the negative actions and decisions often incited by religious extremists.
There is much that needs reform in the Middle East and it is unclear if and when an evolution towards real peace will happen. My own view is that until separation of church/mosque/temple and state is adopted, until education becomes the primary goal of all families, until true equality is gained by women, the embers of conflict and extremism will continue to haunt the region.
Brigitte’s rather extreme position emanates from her experience. I don’t fault her for reaching those conclusions. With her experience I’d probably do the same. It is up to the cool heads and long-term thinkers to eventually prevail in bridging the gaps in people’s allegiances and thinking. Alas, moderates who try for such endeavors often get caught in the crossfire. The hope is always that the 90+ percent of people everywhere who just want a decent life and peace eventually find a way to overrule the loud and extremist few who so far have set the agenda and led it to conflict and suffering.
December 14, 2010 at 12:21 am
AP,31
Brigitte Gabriel, Just like millions of other Arab American, is one individual that has her own experience and conclusions.
She is free to think and believe what ever she wants. I don’t feel any obligation to discuss her views. I don’t consider her or her views to be that important. I don’t waste my time worrying about her or her opinions. I might be more interested in debating an Israeli on Israeli/ Arab issues than wasting my time on her.
If she thinks that Israel is the perfect country, then it is good for her; she can move and live there. I don’t know how fast she can find some one to rent her an apartment nowadays, but again that is her problem, not mine.
anonymous, 30
Too bad you don’t like long speeches, but you are under no obligation to read or respond to this comment. This exchange didn’t have to take this turn, but it was your choice.
You justified Israel war on Lebanon because of what you believe a HA provocation, and there fore you think that the shiaa of Lebanon had to pay the price. It is obvious that you were trying to get an answer from me on whether HA did or didn’t provoke Israel, so you can blame ha for the 1400 casualties, and turn around and say that the southerners should blame themselves for supporting HA.
I’m not defending any one. I have little or nothing in common with HA ideology to begin with. I didn’t defend HA in any of my comments.
It is obvious that you think that any one who is critical of the STL, has to be a defender of HA. This is a very narrow minded thinking, and very typical of most Lebanese, who either defend blindly or oppose blindly. I have o loyalty to any political party. Never did, and never will. That, in no way means, I can’t agree or disagree with some positions of this party or that party.
There is no excuse to deny the sacrifices they made for the sake Lebanon. If it was not for the resistance, Israelis might have still been dinning in Juneih. If it was not for the resistance, I would not have been able to visit the place I was born at. These are facts, not fiction. If you can not understand these reasons, then I doubt that you can understand anything I have to say. If you want o be stubborn, be my guest.
I will list for you the things I’m ashamed of; A State that abandons its citizens for 65 years, a state that does not defend its territories and citizens for 65 years, A state that was headed by two presidents who rode Israeli tanks to the presidential palace, a state that does not punish an army general who serves Israeli troops tea while they are destroying the country, a state that has a defense minister the likes of Mr. Murr, a state that forces its citizens to identify themselves with their sects instead of their national identity, a state where treason became a point of view, a state that does not respect itself, a state that exists on paper only. I could go on and on, but I think you get the picture.
I’m proud of being a Lebanese, but not so proud of the state you expect me to respect. This state you seem so proud of, owes its citizen a lot.
I know that it was not this state that liberated south Lebanon. It was not this state that defended south Lebanon. So do not fool our selves with this non sense of .
I’m ashamed of the people who warship their leaders. It is so sad that for most Lebanese, their heroes are nothing but war criminals. You expect me to respect those people and the state they run? Hell no.
You can go on and on, and call me shameless all year long; it makes no difference to me. And I won’t call you shameless for anything because you don’t seem to understand what shame means.
When I visit Lebanon, and the town I came from, I know for sure who liberated it, and who had helped Israel occupy it. I know who scarified his life to liberate it, and who imprisoned the southerners in al khiam.
I’m not running for a popularity contest on this blog. If I did, I’d know I would come last. As for my secular views, It is up to you to believe what ever you want, I’m not here begging you to believe me. There are people that are blogging her that had exchanges with me for a long time, and they know where I stand on religion and sectarianism. Obviously You have no read much of my blogs , so I won’t blame you anyway.
The day we have a state that respects its people and itself, then I will respect it.
December 14, 2010 at 12:44 am
anon:
You know that while I most certainly share your views in a lot of matters, I disagree with the statements you make above.
I think there are many Lebs who irrespective of “religious” denomination or political inclination share the sort of view held by the Nabi.
I don’t think that the Nabi’s stance betrays a “hidden” agenda. And while I may disagree with his reasoning in principle, there certainly is a romantic element to it, that cannot be scoffed at. And this romantic element cuts across political and religious lines.
Israel’s offensive in 2006, irrespective of rationale, was barbaric, disproportionate, etc. I don’t think that the end justifies any means…. especially when those means come at a great cost to Leb.
December 14, 2010 at 1:02 am
Nabi:
I know you like belligerence and war, but just for future reference, it’s “worship” and not “warship”. You’re playing too many of those HA video games
Whatever else you may believe though, I don’t think you should delude yourself into believing you’re holding the more righteous position.
Khiam is not the only “Jail”.. They’re peppered throughout the Arab world. And the torture doesn’t feel any better in Syria (or elsewhere) just because the torturer is “brotherly”.
Don’t throw words like “treachery” and “nationalism”. They ring hollow for those who don’t share as sympathetic a view of “brotherly” Syria. Those who you may not fully understand who would not be impressed to see HN oppose a Syrian withdrawal or to have any dealings with a Regime that was responsible for the deaths of- anyone has the figures?- countless Lebanese.
Anyways, just food for thought.
December 14, 2010 at 4:49 am
GK@27
Your leaving me with nothing that “I Have To DisAgree” about
Should change to “Couldn’t Agree More” CAM
December 14, 2010 at 7:42 am
IHTDA,
Maybe that’s a case of smart minds think alike lol.
December 14, 2010 at 11:46 am
GK:
Are you suggesting you’re smart
.
On point 27. What alternate solution do you propose?
December 14, 2010 at 12:28 pm
The problem with Hassan Nasrallah is that he himself has not offered any solution as to how Hezbollah can live within or be part of the Lebanese “state”.
December 14, 2010 at 12:41 pm
What does Hassan Nasrallah propose for Lebanese to be part of Hezbollahnistan ?
December 14, 2010 at 12:44 pm
Prophet 33,
I do not understand why you ask me not to respond to your nonsense while you make such a long and passionate demagoguery as usual. May be you’re just like most Hizbis who just revel at having the last word and insist on denying others the freedom of speech which is reminiscent of the first act these thugs committed when they ransacked Beirut CIVILIAN neighbourhood: they destroyed all the media outlet. Well in order to achieve this in blogosphere you may either have to get silent first and stop attacking others, or try some Hizbi tactics such as using warships and bands of thugs.
First, I do not care if you are critical of STL. Actually I did not mention STL in any of my comments. STL is there where you like it or not and the more those who oppose criticize it the more it shows who has something to hide.
Second, what is the exact role that the Shia played in Lebanon and particularly in the last 30 years? It will be unfair to the Shia in general address the subject as I phrased it which is nothing but a paraphrase of your claim about the Shia ‘sacrifices’. It will be best if we look at the various movements that sprang up from this community. It was first the movement of ‘Mahroomeen’ spearheaded by the late Mr. Sadr and later transformed into Amal movement headed by the current Mr. Berri. For your information, the Mahroomeen movement was armed and trained by none other than the PLO under Arafat. The incident in Ain Burdai in the hills of Baalbek in which over 70 were killed in an explosion while training under Fatah officer is a standing testimony to this fact. During the civil war relations between the movement and the various Palestinian factions would oscillate between outright hostility and common alliances based on who pays more. If you do not know, Fatah had lots of resources in the 70s. It was estimated, the Syrian government owed Fatah over $400 million sometime in those days.
Documentations of major world news agencies (such as Times, Newsweek, BBC and others) are still available for those who would like to verify the fact that Amal received the invading Israeli soldiers in south Beirut in 1982 with rice and roses and relations were cordial until such time the Shia of the South realized that the invading army had an agenda of flooding Lebanese markets with cheap Israeli products killing the livelihoods of the southerners. Had the Israelis not committed this grave error, chances are they would still be in the south up to this day. You may want to check a little booklet by Talal Salman documenting this period of the Lebanese history. It is called Two Years or سنتان in Arabic.
The first resistance acts were initiated in Beirut when there was no Hizbis whatsoever and the people who were involved were not Shia. To be exact, the first act of resistance took place in the famous Cafe Modka in the Hamra district against two Israeli soldiers. These acts continued unabated for over two years and I was fortunate to be present at the exact juncture in my car at the triangle which connects East and West Beirut and saw with my own eyes the last Israeli tank running away from Beirut as a result. Hizb had no role in it whatsoever.
From then on, I was following on each and every operation that took place against the invading army and the records are still there for those who care to verify. Not a single operation was carried out by Hizbi operatives except perhaps the two bombings of the Marines and the French Paratroopers. These bombings were obviously politically motivated supported by outside actors and had no connection whatsoever to fighting Israeli invaders or liberating Lebanon. We all know these forces were dispatched as a result of the Sabra and Shatilla massacres and were not invaders. Most of the time Hizb and Amal were engaged in a tug of war in an effort to control the Shia community of the country. They would care less if Israel occupied or did not occupy the south or even all of the country.
I was present in Lebanon during the famous Mountain war (or as they call it al-Karama). I can say for a fact that Hizb had no meaningful role whatsoever in this war. All the actors were leftist organizations. The rest of the eighties witnessed more of the same battles between Amal and Hizb.
And then we come to the nineties. What did Hizb do during this decade? Simply it was a Syrian tool. It took over control from Amal and capitalized on something called resistance in order to establish credibility and legitimacy with the support of Syria and Iran. They conducted few daring operations in which some Hizbi men were captured by the Israelis and the tit for tat went on just like it used to be under Fatah land. The Israelis would commit massacres against the southerners and then Hizb would show up with its bravado.
And you tell me who resolved the Qana debacle? Was it Hizb’s might and bravery or was it Hariri’s diplomatic skills. And who supported the Qana orphans and victims? And you tell who brokered the ceasefire deal in which Hizb gained for the first time some form of recognition? Was it the Hizb’s might or was it Hariri’s vast network of international connections? And what was his reward from this organization of thugs? Get blown up beyond recognition in the heart of Beirut?
Listen, you and your HA thugs should go and burry your heads in a deep pit. Because you are not only shameless but a little kid who wants to belong to a league that you do not qualify for.
December 14, 2010 at 12:55 pm
Apart from Martyrdom being the highest level of personal or communal achievement ?
December 14, 2010 at 1:39 pm
You may already know I’m not a fan of long comments. My last one was an exception. I wrote it in a hurry and didn’t review it carefully. Excuse the few errors that were overlooked.
December 14, 2010 at 2:35 pm
European Aristocracy should starve for the curse only they bestowed on the region and Americans understood was of the utmost importance for energy and the advancement of human species.
December 14, 2010 at 2:51 pm
What has Europe given the world apart from Israel and Gucci bags?
December 14, 2010 at 7:41 pm
“took place in the famous Cafe Modka”
Three small points:
Its Modca not Modka
It took place in the Wimpey across the road not in the Modca
The man who did it was called Khalid Alwan and no he wasnt Hizballah – But he was SSNP
But then reading the rest of your version of Lebanese history (coupled with your obvious deep hate of the Shia) I can only imagine that these are but small holes in your knowledge.
How is Dr Geagea these days?
December 14, 2010 at 7:48 pm
Gabriel #38,
There is only one possible solution; form a single colour cabinet and let the loyal opposition provide a critique and an alternative. Given the Lebanese political class, this will not be an ideal solution but will be far more superior to the current standoff.
December 14, 2010 at 8:18 pm
GK,
Are you talking about Lebanon or New Zealand?
I think you are seriously under estimating the level of tension between the camps.
We are nowhere near the kind of political calm that would allow a loyal opposition to sit on the sidelines and critique.
We are in a maelstrom; We do not have political parties in a battle of ideologies. We have sections of society on every side of the divide that see the current situation as the equivalent of a wrestlers clinch and both sides believe they are fighting an existential battle. We have politicians who both represent that point of view and encourage it and some that are willing to go to any lengths and work with anyone in order to gain theupper hand locally.
We are in a situation where one mis-step will at best see a repeat of 2008 and at worst plunge us back into civil war. I don’t think these are scenarios that are superior to the standoff at all – Well not for those living in Lebanon and would suffer the consequences.
And given that any govt would rely on PSP votes anyway, it would have its nerves frayed to breaking point by the end of the first month wondering which way Jumblatt is going to flip
December 14, 2010 at 8:23 pm
Gabirel,
Thanks for pointing out my little misspelling of the word “worship”. I know I can count on you from now and on to correct me. Lol
It’s obvious that you mistook my aggressive defense of my views as hostile attitude or war loving person.
I have seen enough wars, destruction, and death in my life to hate war. No I do not like wars. That being said, we should only fight wars in case of defense and resistance of invaders, and occupiers.
As for Syria, and its prisons, you won’t find a sympathizer for Syria or its regime in me. You won’t find an apologist for any of the Arab regimes in me. All Arab regimes are totalitarian, corrupt, oppressor of their own people. I view Syria as a supporter of the resistance for its own interests. It is a mutual interest, no more, no less.
Nor would you find an apologist to what HA does or says. Like I said in my earlier posts, I don’t oppose blindly, nor do I defend blindly. Although I support the resistance, I don’t necessarily agree with everything HA or HA says.
anonymous,
There you go again with your cheap generalizations. I didn’t ask you not to reply, I simply gave you the option since you seemed to dislike long comments.
And yes, when I’m right I will say my word and walk away.
You say you don’t care if I criticize the STL. This whole debate started when you attacked me because of my criticism of the STL.
Before I address any of your points in your long post, let’s back track a little. In my first post(#9) addressed to Ghassan Karam , You jumped the gun on me , and started throwing insults and cheap attacks. Now you Say; you don’t care if I criticize the STL. Which one is it? How did we get here?
Back to your post; You ignored to address any of my points about the shameless state you want me to respect. You select the issues you like, and avoid what you can’t address. That is Very typical of guys that love to argue for the sake of argument. You keep dodging points and jumping to new ones. You left the UN and 1710 alone. Do I take that as an agreement with my point of view? lol
Than you jumped to the Shiia. Are you going to jump to another topic after I reply to you? lol
The role of the shiia in Lebanon is not different of any other sect or group. I don’t claim that Shiaa are more patriotic then others .But it is a fact that ,being at the border , they were exposed to more Israeli hostility than others,and there fore they were always at the forefront.
As for Your claim that shiia welcomed the Israelis in 82, this is a distortion of the truth. I’m not a fan of Berri or his movement, but to be fair, it was David David ( Daoud Daoud DD) who was a renegade against Berris’ authority who cooperated with the Israelis. It was not Amal or the Shiia who welcomed the Israelis , it was a person who turned out to be an collaborator.
For your information, DD never traveled north of Tyre since the day Israel invaded ,until the day He was lured to Beirut by the Syrians and Berri, and got killed on the way to Beirut.
Don’t confuse the displeasure of the Shiia with the PLO abuse with what happened in Tyre. The PLO ,who was always its own worst enemy, didn’t treat the community ,which had offered lots of support the way it should have. DD and his handlers knew how to manipulate the community. That didn’t last long. DD was a traitor, and got what traitors usually do.
Treason and collaboration have no religion or sect. Traitors are in every community.
I made it clear to you in my earlier posts, that I supported the resistance before the creation of HA and before the Iranian revolution. I never claimed that the resistance started with HA. I never claimed that HA is the only party who sacrificed for Lebanon. I don’t think that HA can ,or has ever made that claim either.I know the history of the resistance very well. I know how it started and I Salute all the national and leftist parties , which where th e spear head of this resistance, starting with the martyr George Hawee.
You are asking to many questions that only HA can answer, but as an observer I can tell you that wars are waged or fought on more than one front. Politics ,and diplomacy are some times needed to end a war . But it’s always the success or failure of military operations that determine the outcome of diplomatic negotiations during a war. If your losing, no one is going to talk to you. Only when your winning or holding your places, people negotiate with you. That goes to all the wars that took place so far;93,96,and 2006.
In 2000 Israel could not negotiate the fate of its collaborator in south Lebanon. It literally abandoned them. Had it been in better positions, it may have tried to secure their safety at least. Not that it could have been successful but that’s another subject.
When Israel invaded Lebanon, Lebanon was in no position to negotiate anything except for the shameful May 17 accord. Arafat could only negotiate his survivor ,and safe exist from Lebanon, because He lost his war.
At the end, I’ll tell you that I and every Lebanese who ever resisted Israel, wether militarily or otherwise, will always be proud, and walk head up. We have nothing to be ashamed of. We have everything to be proud of. We’re only ashamed of the traitors and the cowards.
What ever grudges you have toward people who succeeded in defeating Israeli, I hope you can heal your soul and mind. A rude as you are, I hold no grudges against you at all. I wish you well, and I assure I would defend you as hard as I would defend my own family. I do understand that hatred can blind people. And I really wish you very well.
December 14, 2010 at 8:48 pm
Gabriel,
One more thing; I never claim to be righteous. I simply present views which, I believe in, the strongest way possible. I don’t present views that I doubt. I don’t compromise on principles, But I’m open to changing my views, if presented with logic and prove in a realistic,and objective debate.
What you have witnessed in my exchange with anonymous is very unfortunate in the way things exploded ; I definitely prefer a come, and substantive debate instead of person attacks. I do apologies for any thing that , may have been offensive, to you or to anyone reading this threat.
December 14, 2010 at 9:00 pm
Anon @ #41
Other than the mis-facts of your over-long diatribe, the butchering of recent history and your myopic analysis, your seething and deep-burning hatred of the Shia has overwhelmed any possibly redeemable intellectual qualities you have pretended for yourself.
Pray tell, what does the Isagoge say about pure, unmitigated hatred, and the utter frustration that must come with it since there are few practical means to quench it?
Even your buddy “Gabby” @ #34 is trying to tell you something…
December 14, 2010 at 9:21 pm
Ya Nabi:
Please let me set the record straight on a number of things.
(1) I don’t think you love war, or are belligerent. My reference to “Warships” was simply a courtesy correction, and an attempt at a little humor, considering (and I think Anon was pulling your legs as well), you were being accused of being a closet-case Hizbi.
(2) If you must know, (not that it matters), I imagine you a hopeless, passionate, romantic. Please don’t misread my words, my reference to Romantic is intended in a purely platonic and philosophical sense. I am not coming onto you
.
(3) My reference to Syrian jails was not to open a discussion on Arab autocracy, or their poor record on Human Rights. I was simply attempting to flip your argument back at you. You mentioned the Horrors of Khiam, and recalled those who rode on those Israeli tanks. The intent, I can only assume, was to suggest that some factions within Lebanon openly sided with an enemy that abused, killed, maimed Lebanese. There was no hint in your analysis that maybe those marriages were no less of convenience, be it from the Shia early on trying to rid themselves of the Palestinian problem, or from the right-wing Xians later on spearheading the SLA and doing Israel’s dirty work for them.
(4) Perhaps this is my most pertinent comment (and anyone can choose to agree or disagree). At the risk of pulling the “Sectarian” argument out… Lebanon is not about Shia and Sunni and Xians (all 1000 denominations of them). The “Shia”, by which I mean it in the Lebanese sense, those who have Shia in their identity cards (I think they may have stopped doing that already)… are the future of Lebanon.
People like UtP, I mean CtP, will bark ad nauseum about Geagea and the right wing Xian presence. The truth is, they are a non-issue (looking forward). They are not the future. They are the Past. They are beating their last heart beats.
In 50-100 years, there will only be a token “Xian” presence in Lebanon, and they will be the biggest proponents of a secular order in Lebanon (even if that means supporting autocrats as the Iraqi Xians did for many years).
The Shia represent more than 40% of the Lebanese population. They are the future of Lebanon, and they alone will dictate whether the political order in Lebanon will be secular or not.
So if you’re Shia, and you’re secular. More power to you. I wish your worldview spreads like the wildfires that recently hit Lebanon.
When all the senseless bickering stops in these forums, and when you and me and Anon, and CtP are dust (CtP- please don’t keep posting from beyond the grave!), the sort of order we define today is what our children will inherit.
This last generation has seen a regression in the Arab/Muslim world. We can blame X, Y, Z. But at the end of the day, it’s our land and our responsibility.
I don’t see how any good can come out in Leb with a weak state, and a cult- HA- that provides for the medical/educational/etc needs of the people.
That’s all I have to say.
December 14, 2010 at 9:34 pm
UsedToPost:
Why don’t you do us all a favor and change your name to ContinueToPost already!
PS. Your comment #46 does not contradict Anonymous’s post. Go figure!
Those long posts can be tiresome. Perhaps if you have some energy next time you’re taking a crap you can re-read it again.
Mar (isn’t that Arabic for Saint?):
While I love to be buddies with Anonymous. He is Martian. And since someone accused me of being his Mommy before, that must mean I am from Venus!
Anon: Can the long-distance thing work?
December 14, 2010 at 10:02 pm
UsedToPost #46
I thought you’re watching the ‘ashoura video which I intentionally linked for you just in time for the occasion. There are only two days left. So hurry and get all the rewards. That Abu Malik must be some character you should admit. But the poet himself is the big star. Iraqis, by the way, are very talented in this respect. I once witnessed an elderly Iraqi who in front of a huge crowd presented an improvised poem on the spot which he sang accompanied by improvised music which he directed while presenting his poem. It was exhilarating.
You think I hate the Shia? No I do not hate the Shia. I intentionally based my response to Prophet on Movements rather than Shia community as he put it out of respect to the community in general. But I hate what they do especially those things you could see in that video. Brush up on your Iraqi accent. It is one of the most beautiful once you get used to it.
So it is Modca and Modka? Well, excuse my German accent.
As for Dr. Geagea, he is doing very well in Mi’rab. Why don’t you drop in when you have time? It is wonderful time for skiing. You could also spend Xmass by the cedars after concluding ‘ashoura. It will be a double feat to accomplish just in one month. Next time you come back with a comment addressed to me I’ll bring you al’Hussein’s prayer he made against the Shia before his martyrdom, all quoted from authentic Shia sources this time.
Prophet #49
I did not respond to your criticism of STL in comment 9. I responded to the general theme of your comment which I described as a cheap lamentation of Lebanoninstan and I stand by that description.
You cannot support or even agree with an organization which has hijacked the legitimacy of a state then come back and lament the situation. If you are a patriotic Lebanese, then you have to recognize all the harm this organization has caused the country since the inception of the organization.
I did not forget about 1701 because to me that is a settled issue. 1701 ended the war which HNA provoked and by your own account (which I can dispute but there is no real need for that since the end result will be the same) allowed the southerners to go back to their villages.
Hizbistan maintained overall monopoly over the south from 1990 until 2006. No government or army presence was allowed during those years. Its failure in 2006 has proven beyond any doubt that only a government supported by international legitimacy can safeguard the most basic interests of the southerners. Despite its shortcomings, this government role cannot be denied except by hypocrites.
HNA claims that he made a mistake by provoking that war and also claimed ignorance regarding the level of Israeli response. He is lying on both counts. HNA intentionally provoked that war in order to divert attention and gain respite from pressures accumulating internally specifically because of issues relating to the political assassinations. This is a well known tactic used by such groups for reasons that everyone knows.
In general, I am not against all citizens being treated equally and justly in a country such as Lebanon (when and if it becomes a real country) irrespective of their communal belongings. But I am in total opposition to any group that comes forward with a claim that it had made the ultimate sacrifices that no one else made. And hence it would imply by such false claims others must submit to its edicts. And as a digression to those who are arguing about the need to form a different government, I’d say this. The country itself is at a crossroads and not the government. When I say Lebanon Stan I do mean it verbatim. This is what Lebanon is at this point in time and every one would like to deny it of course.
And no I do not need your protection or any of your comrades. In fact I can provide protection to you and many others if need be. And as for giving me options, I think I’m quite capable of making assessment on my own.
As for DD and Amal, that does not give justice to what really happened. The reception of the Israelis by Amal operatives and even coordination is well documented and goes far beyond DD. We all know by the way that Amal people are ‘rascals’ in general and they are more like mercenaries than real organized group. But then we could also say the same thing about those who currently receive their paycheques from Tehran except that they are more ideologically motivated. So in short, not much changed since the seventies except for the bosses who met out the payments as deemed appropriate.
December 14, 2010 at 11:18 pm
No Gabriel I do not “bark ad nauseum about Geagea and the right wing Xian presence”
(Bark?)
I am not against their presence . I just dislike the racist, right wing politics they espouse.
Anon,
Hey you want to put yourself forward as an expert on the Lebanese Resistance then you should at least get the names and places right no? I’m just helping you out. But seriously, “Modka” is down to your German accent? One of the most famous cafes in Beirut for decades?
You portray the Shia as money hungry and religious extremists. You are quite condescending and arrogant about a people you obviously think you know a lot about. If that isn’t hate you must have as yet unseen depths to you.
And why should I care what some Iraqi is quoting just because he is Shia? Or is it that you have such little respect for the entire community that you think that whatever one says all must think? And why do you even assume I am Shia?
And feel free to bring what you like? I can’t see how its relevant but knock yourself out.
December 14, 2010 at 11:21 pm
“No government or army presence was allowed during those years”
LOL another wannabe who obviously never visited the South from “1990 to 2006″ and just likes to repeat talking points fed to him. If you had you would know what a stupid comment that is and you may have seen a Lebanese soldier or two all the way to the Occupied Zone before 2000 and the border before 2006.
December 14, 2010 at 11:53 pm
UsedToPost,
What is the relevance of your last comment?
Do you deny that Amal operatives were and still are on the payroll of various benefactors?
Do you deny the same for HA operatives?
The honest answer is clear YES to both questions. But you have a tendency to argue needlessly and you can answer no and knock yourself out.
Did I mention anywhere in my previous comment that the Shia in general are as you described? If you can find it please make a direct quote.
That incidentally brings out an important issue. Which other groups in Lebanon besides these two (Amal and HA) behaved similarly and in effect put their loyalty to the country in doubt?
You may say the Hariri people are paid by the Saudis. Yes. But the difference is huge. The Hariri’s are mostly involved in social philanthropy which is not the same as forming a militia paid for by the RG of a State with a political agenda that may jeopardize the very well being of Lebanon as an independent State.
Am I assuming you are Shia? Yes I am. At least, according to you from previous comments you descend from a Shia family. Whether you truly believe in Shiism or not, that is something I do not know anything about. So make yourself clear and say here I am and do away with the guessing game. The video and the poet thing were meant to draw your attention to certain behaviours that are conducted by some members of this community which are quite repugnant IMHO. But that is beside the point. You are an ardent supporter of an organization which by its behaviour is threatening the very existence of the country you happen to be its citizen and also threatening to plunge it into yet another cycle of civil war.
Again, do I hate the Shia as Shia? NO. I grew up with Shia and in fact have Shia relatives. But if these relatives behave in ‘ashore the way it is shown in that video, I will disown them and luckily they do not. Actually, I love these relatives more than any others, and when I visit Lebanon I like to stay with none more than I like to stay with them.
Gaby 53,
”Anon: can the long-distance thing work?”
For extraterrestrials the sky is the limit.
December 15, 2010 at 12:17 am
Gabriel,52
Thank you for a very sincere comment. I was not offended by your reference to my miserable spelling at all. I may have sounded more serious than I intended to.
I may not be the only Lebanese who is feeling hopeless these days, and I’m not embarrassed to admit my frustration and anxiety. My passion for Lebanon goes beyond imagination, to the point of Romanism. Again, Romanism, in this case, is a sense of pride, and love .When you love something (or someone), you’d defend it fearlessly.
I was, in no way, condoning or excusing anything the Syrians ever did in Lebanon. I know they abused, imprisoned, and executed many Lebanese. My family was, as much of victim of Syria’s presence, as many other Lebanese families. I have lost family members to the Syrian brutality, though it was “accidental”, we are told. Don’t take that as an excuse either.
If you had read some of my comments in other threads, you would’ve realized how critical I had been of Syria’s presence and actions in Lebanon. My criticism has also included all Lebanese leadership, and warlords who fought, or benefited of, Syria presence.
That being said, I never view Syria as an enemy. I blame Lebanese for allowing themselves, to be manipulated by Syria for the past 20 some years. People can only use you if you allow them to.
As for Shiia being the future of Lebanon, because of the demographic changes with regard to numbers; it seems valid from the outset. I truly believe that Shiia, as a community, don’t have the desire to dominate Lebanon. They do desire to have a presence and a voice .They simply find it hard to believe that, having been the neglected and the abandoned ones are not being appreciated for what they consider their defense of Lebanon. This particular point is what draws them to HA. Even the secular ones feeling the threat, and are being forced to seek protection from an ideological party, which they would never have supported under different circumstances. This is a sad irony.
I will take the risk and claim that the greatest majority of Shiia in Lebanon would want to have a multi cultural/faith Lebanon. They feel it is a safer bet for them, than having a shiia dominated Lebanon. I will also take the risk to claim that the sign of strength being flexed by Shiia, stems out of fear and insecurity about the future. They understand that Syria is not a guarantee on the long run, and Iran is still far away, there fore, they would not want a Lebanon dominate by them or others. They understand that strength has its limits, and numbers have their limits.
Lebanon, in my views, can only exist if it can hold its mosaic picture. Lebanese, all Lebanese are feeling insecure, and they need to take steps which could make them trust each other. Having regional and international countries sponsoring different sects has to end, before Lebanese can think of ways to rebuild a modern state.
anonymous, 54
I didn’t offer you protection or defend you because I thought you need it, I offered to defend you as fellow Lebanese ,the same way I would defend my family , against Israeli aggression, even if you and I disagree on everything. Don’t be too sensitive now. I would love to see your capabilities put to use, and help defend me and my family. I’m not that sensitive. lol
As for the rest of your comment, I’ll try to reply tomorrow.
December 15, 2010 at 12:55 am
Prophet #58,
Actually from the gist of your comment I would rather you go back and reflect on which party should be the one entitled to protect you and everyone else in cases as you describe.
The logic you use implies further weakening of the government and army and therefore should be rejected outright particularly by those who claim romantic attachment to the idea of a country called Lebanon.
Based on that premise you are until further developments ‘ir-redemptively’ trapped in the spiral of State Power erosion that HA finds convenient to spin to serve its agenda.
So, are you romantic or a hardcore Hizbi?
December 15, 2010 at 1:13 am
UtP
> (Bark?)
LoL. Excuse the language. At times, Mother Venus screams, and I mean screams… Drama Queen!
December 15, 2010 at 2:57 am
anon @ #57
“You may say the Hariri people are paid by the Saudis. Yes. But the difference is huge. The Hariri’s are mostly involved in social philanthropy”
I’ll let UTP handle himself, but This statement alone should disqualify you from posting any more nonsense.
So…the logic then is: the Saudis fund Hariri because their primary purpose is supporting “social philanthropy” in Lebanon. Talk about one hopeless, if not delusional, romantic accusing others..
This should stand on its own without comment for the sheer hilarity of it, but just a quick intro, because it seems you have lived on Mars much too long: Hariri senior was a shrewd politician whose tenure while PM was full of bribery, cronyism, and intimidation. Through a majority stake in Solidere while PM (can you spell the glaring conflict of interest?) he engorged his businesses at the expense of Lebanon’s national debt that saw his initial $1 billion turn into $20 billion by the time of his assassination, and turn Lebanon into another sorry IMF victim case. His son has funded wide-eyed Salafi groups and continues the business of dispossessing property owners so that he can turn Beirut into one giant shopping mall for Gulf Arab “permanent” tourists. Just for the sake of the culturally-barren behemoth they have turned downtown Beirut into and their de-civilizational vision, this family should be nationally disowned. The Hariris have financially dispossessed a country to feed a few loyalists…I can see why a hand-fed Hariri partisan would advance the kind of silly, obtuse statement you advanced above, but I thought your perceptions, if not your history, were more informed, delicate, subtle…”Isagogeous” in other words?
December 15, 2010 at 3:22 am
To go back to my question (#6) and your response, GK: I agree that trying to negotiate over the STL is pretty much impossible because most things are non-negotiable, and this becomes absurd if the accused might be party to the negotiation (though not the guilty – not without trial). In any case, this my reading.
HA may have to make the following concession:
We agree to drop the false witnesses argument, and to wait and see how the witnesses are dealt with by the STL.
While Hariri and March 14 may have to make some or all of the following concessions:
1. We recognize the STL, we will continue to fulfill our obligation to the STL, including funding and cooperating with the investigation, but we will not authorize the arrest of any HA member for prosecution in the Hague. (Or is funding non-negotiable from HA’s point of view? Drop funding, or else…?)
2. We declare that we are unsure of the credibility of the evidence that will be used in any prosecution, particularly as Israeli infiltration must be taken into account.
3. We will declare the innocence of the Resistance, and its greatness and nobility, after the indictments are issued. (After or before? All its members? Or just the party as a whole?)
4. We will request changes to the procedures of the STL (e.g. no trials in absentia). (Non-negotiable from the point of view of the STL, and would HA even demand it since they don’t recognize the STL?)
I may have loaded the dice here because I’m pretty distrustful of HA, but in this case HA only have to give up a demand that is basically their invention in the first place. (I’m not saying there were no “false witnesses”. I’m saying it’s a non-issue because the UNIIIC and STL have already questioned the credibility of these witnesses.) I guess their argument might be that they are the one’s whose image is taking a battering, so why should they make any concessions. But there’s a big problem there: the accused in any court case will always have their reputation tarnished to some extent, but that can never be grounds for the accused to negotiate on the outcome of the trial.
December 15, 2010 at 4:03 am
Saint 61,
Make a case of your claims against Hariri Senior and raise it up in a heavenly manner with the Tribunal of Angels.
We’re eager to know the Heavenly verdict. Please let us know here at QN as soon as you get wind. Please also send a copy to the terrestrial tribunal at the Hague in order to guide them through their ordeal.
December 15, 2010 at 7:21 am
Accusation yesterday that HA is actually significantly hurting the Lebanese economy and the Lebanese labor force through smuggling and tax evasion:
http://www.beirutobserver.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=43826:kabbara&catid=41:2010-10-03-20-24-15
Comments from HA sympathizers? You have a way to explain and justify this?
December 15, 2010 at 8:37 am
Pete in Dubai asks:
What has Europe given the world apart from Israel and Gucci bags?
No extreme lovere of all things Eurpean, they have given us:
BMWs, Jaguar, Audi, VW,
Citroen?Cheese?
Airbus?
European Space Agency?
CERN?
Classic Art, Liberalism?
And now we can ask the next logical question:
“What has the Middle East given the world besides terrorists?”
Algebra?
December 15, 2010 at 10:12 am
Jonathan,
You made me laugh!
1.We recognize the STL, we will continue to fulfill our obligation to the STL, including funding and cooperating with the investigation,
“but we will not authorize the arrest of any HA member for prosecution in the Hague”
**You have contradicted yourself so easily. How can you promise to cooperate but not at the same time. Even HA logic cannot explain that lol.
2.**Everyone who is accused will say the same thing you are saying.
3.”We will declare the innocence of the Resistance, and its greatness and nobility, after the indictments are issued”
**Is the the noble HA that ransacked Beirut in may 2008? Or the one who’s leaders keep on threatening the rest of the countrymen with “cutting off limbs and tongue” (barbaric but so Vogue in Persia)?
4.”We will request changes to the procedures of the STL (e.g. no trials in absentia).”
**great Jonathan. Hide the killers and say voila! you cannot try them . Even in fiction that would be impossible!
Jonathan IF the HA members are indicted and convicted on credible evidence; then HA proves that they are a hit team for hire.
If they are exonerated; they will gladly wave their flag and exhort the virtues of a divine intervention.
December 15, 2010 at 12:15 pm
AP: You know that Israel is part of the Middle East, right? We finally see eye to eye. I too think there has been nothing positive from the Middle East since the development of Algebra.
Thanks for pointing out that your coutrymen are nothing more than a bunch of terrorists like the rest of the neighborhood.
shalom
December 15, 2010 at 12:19 pm
HP: It’s simple. Even my government appointed auditor encourages me to evade taxes. When I try to explain the concept of civic duty he says “that’s great for America where you get services (electric, water, etc.) in exchange for tax payments, here it goes straight to the politicians pocket.”
You don’t need a HA sympathizer to justify evading taxes. Any government-appointed auditor trying to make an extra buck can let you know.
December 15, 2010 at 12:22 pm
GK,
Amen. Let’s bring the whole shebang down. I take it as civic duty to stop paying taxes and more importantly paying attention to any dimwits who claim to represent the government – be they politicians, policemen or the hangman.
To all Lebanese. This is your call to stop paying taxes, your phone bills, electric bills, VAT. Let’s send a real message to the criminals who pretend to be leaders.
December 15, 2010 at 12:31 pm
Anon,
Do you really need additional proof that Hariri Sr. pulled off the greatest heist in Lebanese history?
I wonder if the UNICCC (is eunuch a better descriptor?) or STL ever questioned those who Hariri dispossessed in the early 90s? Having a building in downtown Beirut taken away for pennies on the dollar and resulting rents skyrocketing is pretty good motive for knocking off a gangster.
December 15, 2010 at 12:35 pm
Terror Inc.
Thanks for pointing out that your coutrymen are nothing more than a bunch of terrorists like the rest of the neighborhood.
Johnny,
Actually, I don’t believe Israel is anyting like the “rest of the neighborhood”. Although I am hoping one day Israel will be able to more positively influence the neighborhood, unfortunately, I think many non-Israelis are “resistant” and seem to be very “stiff-necked” when it comes to Israel.
Many non-Israelis prefer to fight Israel than deal with their own problems, and in some cases, deal with their own lives.
December 15, 2010 at 12:39 pm
Johnny, “To all Lebanese. This is your call to stop paying taxes, your phone bills, electric bills, VAT. Let’s send a real message to the criminals who pretend to be leaders.”
Your kidding? right?
December 15, 2010 at 12:47 pm
AP, “What has the Middle East given the world besides terrorists?”
3 religions. Highest per capita in the world
December 15, 2010 at 1:10 pm
AP: I was simply agreeing with what you said in 65 above. I will quote it here again for your convenience.
“What has the Middle East given the world besides terrorists?”
Algebra?
If you choose to ignore the fact that Israel is in the Middle East that is your problem not mine.
I have no problem with Israel as a sovereign State in the Middle East. It takes care of its citizens and gives a big portion of its inhabitants rights as citizens. I do have issue with certain policies related to denying a portion of its inhabitants rights. Let’s end the charade – one state for one people. Who cares what religion they are?
December 15, 2010 at 1:21 pm
IHTDA: We should not expect our politicians to step down on their own. They benefit from the status quo and will keep it as is until we force it down upon their heads. The whole March 8 & March 14 thing is a giant facade. It’s like Dems & Reps in the US. It’s two sides of the same coin. Why the typically cynical Lebanese intellectuals do not see this is beyond me.
To answer your question, I am wholeheartedly serious. Unless we bring the house down we have no one but ourselves to blame. Lebanon’s hope lies in the hands of its people. We the people can choose to continue to blindly follow and end up butchering each other in the process, or reject any and all forms of this pathetic excuse for an authority that only preys on the weak.
Excuse my ranting, but I am personally getting fed up with the armchair activism practiced from afar on this site. You want to have a say on Lebanon, come home and do something about it.
December 15, 2010 at 1:34 pm
Danny,
I think you misunderstood me. I wasn’t claiming that those statements make sense. Some of them are ridiculous. But they are presumably the kind of statements that would be required by any negotiated “solution” that is apparently being discussed by Saudi and Syria. I was attempting to look at the kind of concessions that would be expected to be made by both sides. My point was partly that the whole idea of a negotiated solution is a little strange, even absurd.
December 15, 2010 at 4:02 pm
Shou Qifa,
Did u enjoy the live speech of Nasrallah?
Will u be in Beirut tomorrow to witness the circus?
December 15, 2010 at 4:17 pm
The Council of Ministers of Lebanon Stan ended its deliberations for the year with a happy new year note to all LebanonStanies from the minister of information.
They discussed many issues including recent fires, drug use in schools, and the recent storm.
They also discussed the so-called ‘false witnesses’ but not as the first item on the agenda as Mr. Raad ‘falsely’ predicted. Voting on the issue was also false.
So why do the Lebanonistanies keep complaining about their ministers?
On the other hand, no such thing as a Syrian Saudi negotiated deal on Lebanon is in the works.
Brace yourselves for the end of ‘ashoura and another round of ominous predictions about cutting hands, tongues, limbs…of the conspirators against the ‘noble’, ‘purified’, ‘exalted’, ‘divinely inspired’, ‘the most honorable’ Resistors coming to you soon on the big screen of dahiya with the highest definition attainable through its ‘noiseless’ and ‘impeccably pure’ made only for the ‘pure’ fibre media.
December 15, 2010 at 4:32 pm
anonymous, 54 &59.
You keep going back to the legitimacy of the state. I think in my comment number#33, I addressed the state and the legitimacy of this state. I would only add that this state was hijacked years ago by the right wing parties and their militias. There is no need to go over all the details .These parties collaborated with Israel, and sought Israel’s support so that they dominate the state and the country. Israel helped them elect two presidents. Once you condemn that part of Lebanon’s history, then you and I can discuss the state .
Your claim that “No government or army presence was allowed during those years.” is laughable. You have no idea what you are talking about.
I’ll give you a very brief history of the army’s presence in south Lebanon. Throughout the 90’s Lebanese army maintained checkpoints a mile or two away from every Israeli/Lahad check points ,at the edges of the occupied strip of south Lebanon.
After the liberation, in 2000, the Lebanese army spread out throughout the liberated area, all the way to the border.
All government establishments, security and otherwise had full presence in the area .All services were provided locally, including courts, passports, and so on.
Please check your information before you make these statements.
I will agree to disagree with you on the war provocations. It makes no difference anyway. But please tell me if you would wage a war next time Israel kidnaps a Lebanese from across the border. You seem to ignore all of Israel’s violations against Lebanon’s airspace, territories, and water. You seem to be ok with Israel’s infiltration of our communication system. You seem to be ok with all the spies Israel has planted in our society and establishments. I gather you are a part time supporter of Lebanon’s sovereignty.
As for DD, I agree with you that what he did was nothing but treason, but disagree that this reception went much beyond DD. I’m not excusing anyone, I’m just telling you what I know as facts. Like I said before, treason has no religion or sect. All should be punished the same way, even if it was my own brother.
As for the rest of your comments about Amal, I don’t speak for them I don’t apologies for them, nor do I endorse any of their corrupt activities. Just a reminder, all Lebanese militias act and behave the same. Remember how the LBF, and kataab, acted when they had weapons. You heard me say that all warlords of Lebanon are criminals, and they all should be tried for war crimes. It is so sad that they are seen as heroes now. Some of them are so prophetic when they speak too, and worse is that people believe them, lol
As for my offer to defend you, you still don’t get it. I’ll put it this way; As a Lebanese, I would expect you to defend me. And I’m expected to defend you .What is wrong with this equation?
December 15, 2010 at 5:01 pm
The notion that HN “lied” and deliberately provoked Operation Just Reward is deeply demented.
I wonder how many Lebanese actually believe this counterfactual bullpucky?
Ironically, there are numerous reports from post-OJR analysts that directly debunk this utter idiocy who are in a position to know; Israelis from the military/security sectors. They don’t let hate-fueled false narratives contaminate the fields of battle that they’re striving to assess.
Not that the facts matter to some of HA’s fellow “countrymen”.
December 15, 2010 at 5:09 pm
I got to give it to SHN, he’s a brilliant strategist.
He outfoxed everyone, including the Israelis and the Syrians.
December 15, 2010 at 5:22 pm
Even though it is morbid, I’m placing SHN on my 2011 death pool list.
December 15, 2010 at 5:55 pm
The one thing I take against March 14 is that they are not willing to expose the false witness issue head on.
Who are they trying to protect and why?
December 15, 2010 at 6:18 pm
PiD.
SHN’s studiousness, flexibility and willingness to incorporate “lessons learned” contribute to the respect with which he is viewed by those Israelis whose professional lives have been directly concerned with those under their command who have and will be risking their own “skin in the game”.
Those at the top such as former head of MI General Amos Yadlin and premier missile expert Uzi Rubin have recently described a vulnerable civilian Israel that could be at terribly affected by HA (and Syria’s) missiles. Rocketman Rubin bluntly states that these forces constitute “a revolution” and that the enemy has conceivably achieved aerial superiority without any planes.
Whether or not their dire scenarios will act as a deterrent to more Israeli military adventures is unknown.
From Arutz Sheva:
“Lebanon: We Took Apart Israeli Spy Sites
Reported: 18:45 PM – Dec/15/10
Follow Israel news briefs on and
The Lebanese army took apart Israeli listening posts and observations sites on two ridges deep within the country, Channel 2 television was reported Wednesday evening.
The Lebanese claimed that, based on Hizbullah information, the army took apart two listening posts, a camera and a transmitter that were set up in hollow rocks at the top of the ridges.”
(No doubt the public Israeli boasting about their clever “hollow rocks” did not go unnoticed by those concerned).
Oops.
December 15, 2010 at 6:41 pm
lally,
Sorry, but I wasn’t able to follow your thread of thought.
December 15, 2010 at 6:57 pm
An interesting view on the “Wilileaks” issue (or non-issue)…
Confidential views may be more heartfelt but, as Dalia Dassa Kaye of the Rand Corporation notes, “what Arab leaders say to U.S. officials and what they might do may not always track.” The masses hear policies; high-ranking Westerners hear seduction.
http://www.danielpipes.org/9182/wikileaks-arab-leaders
December 15, 2010 at 8:05 pm
A.Palace. @86;
The notion of the seductive Arab leaders directing their persuasive charms at haplessly clueless & willing American dupes is amusing ……in a very cynical way.
My favorite example:
“The Crown Prince of Abu Dhabi, Mohammed bin Zayed, who happens to also be the United Arab Emirate’s defense minister, is quoted in another cable saying “Ahmadinejad is Hitler.”He knows what OUR own dear leaders/officials want to hear and is happy to oblige
We are really slipping into collective looneyland as the popularity of Sarah Palin inarguably demonstrates.
December 15, 2010 at 8:33 pm
Prophet,
You are distorting facts. The national Lebanese army was effectively out of the south for the lats 40 years prior to deployment in Aug 2006,
http://1stlebanon.com/lebanon-news/news.php?idactu=1159&debut=15&date=08+2006
In my opinion you’re not just HA sympathizer but you are a hordcore Hizbi. That is your choice of course.
The notion that you should defend me and that I should defend you runs counter to the very notion of strengthening a state that you claim to be romantic about.
To lally who is so confident of the israeli military analysts assessment,
Lebanese are also confident that HNA provoked the July war in order to sidestep the national dialog that was taking place just before the war,
http://www.peacestudiesjournal.org.uk/dl/Lebanon%20power-sharing%20FINAL%20EDIT.pdf
Go lecture to the Israeli analysts and leave Lebanon and the Lebanese alone. We, in Lebanon, do not need yours and your military analysts ‘superior’ analytical ‘truth-seeking’ skills. We are quite happy with what we got.
December 15, 2010 at 9:39 pm
Everyone except “post-OJR analysts that directly debunk this utter idiocy who are in a position to know; Israelis from the military/security sectors.” seem to think HNA deliberately provoked 2006 war in order to sidestep the ongoing National Dialogue,
http://www.merip.org/mero/mero072506.html
http://www.peacestudiesjournal.org.uk/dl/Lebanon%20power-sharing%20FINAL%20EDIT.pdf
Prophet,
The Lebanese Army did not have an effective presence in the south for almost 40 years before deployment in Aug. 2006,
http://1stlebanon.com/lebanon-news/news.php?idactu=1159&debut=15&date=08+2006
December 16, 2010 at 3:32 am
Johnny,
“Excuse my ranting, but…”, you are excused
“I am personally getting fed up with the armchair activism practiced from afar on this site.”, if you are referring to me, then I have to tell you that I’m not an activist of any sort, never were and never will be (hopefully).
My point is that I’m for change that comes through a process that starts with laying the foundation for better education of the people that enables them to do a better job electing their representatives that in turn can set the laws for progress and development. This is a long process and in my opinion, there are no shortcuts. Can it be done in Lebanon? I’m not very optimistic.
In a previous post about “Lebanon 2020″ I have put two assumptions without which I don’t see any light at the end of the tunnel, and they are:
1- No war
2- No national unity government
Now what I don’t believe in is “revolutions” and calls for “civil disobedience”. I don’t see how a country like Lebanon will benefit out of it ($50 billion plus debt) or what will be the outcome (same mutated clans will come to power).
You obviously have different views which I respectfully disagree with or at least I can’t figure out how they can be implemented, at what cost to the Lebanese people and within what time frame.
December 16, 2010 at 3:44 am
PeterinDubai, 83
Neither M14 nor M8 care much about the false witnesses. M8 trying to use it to derail the STL by referring them to the supreme judiciary counsel and M14 are delaying it until the indictments are issued.
This issue, or at least the witnesses, will be irrelevant when either the indictments are issued or a deal is brokered.
December 16, 2010 at 7:53 am
Lally,
Yes, I think there are a lot of examples that show Arab leaders saying one thing, and doing something else. The Syrian thug led the US government around for years.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/11/28/world/20101128-iran-leaders.html
I’m not sure what this has to do with Sarah Palin, except possibly, she wouldn’t fall for all the BS.
As GWB put it:
December 16, 2010 at 10:57 am
the stl is an usreal kangaroo court/tribunal. only jewry and its puppets give this star chamber any thing as honorable as spit.
December 16, 2010 at 11:06 am
Fine Jewry
5 dancing Mahmouds,
How long has “Jewry and its puppets” taken over your mind?
I fear you will need the advise of the great al-Awlaki to free yourself of this.
December 18, 2010 at 3:52 am
Viva France.
December 19, 2010 at 2:42 pm
The Lebanese should be proud of the freedom of press that they have , the wikileak information is published more in Lebanon than in the US with all the fan fair about freedom of press in the US even though it covers more of the Lebanese than the Americans ,
We have not seen any information about these cables in the American press, except second hand ,
December 19, 2010 at 5:35 pm
Norman,
I am not sure that your observation regarding Wikileaks and the US press is accurate.
The “leaks” regarding the Iraq war and that in Afghanistan were very well covered by the US media. The fact that non of these stories had traction is due to the apathy of politicians and citizens alike but not the press. The 250,000 diplomatic cables ,on the other hand , were not about either cover ups or illegal activities. They were essentially about local politicians venting what they thought would be private conversations. Such revelations have very limited interest. You would not expect the NYT or the Chicago Tribune to carry a page one story about what Elias Al Murr told the US ambassador in Lebanon about what he thinks of Walid Jumblatt, would you?
December 19, 2010 at 9:51 pm
Gahssan,
I could not resist.This is comical in a way.lol
I would expect a story about a defense minster assuring the US , that his army is instructed(by no one else but him) not defend his own country if and when Israel invade it.He is the defense minster after all.I bet if such a story is published, most people would think it’s April first.lol
come on , it would a first ever such a story to be published,and maybe the last ever.
Have a laugh , Ghassan,We’re always too serious when we debate.lol
December 19, 2010 at 11:01 pm
Ghassan,
It might be in the written media , but have not seen any discussions on TV which is more popular , from what i understand and heard is that it is banned to discuss the cables at American Universities,
December 19, 2010 at 11:41 pm
I agree with GK (Post 97).
Norman,
Which American Universities is it “banned to discuss the cables”?
Can you post a link showing this?
Also, I was wondering, if there is no freedom of speech in Syria, is there freedom of speech at Syrian Universities?
December 20, 2010 at 12:37 am
Norman,
Get real will you. How can there be a law prohibiting the discussion of a subject across the thousands of universities in the US. I talk about them every day.
Prophet,
You are right.There is never any need for personal attacks , adhominems etc… A little bit of levity does not hurt.
December 20, 2010 at 8:59 am
Norman,
I think if you change your source of information from Al Watan and Cham Press to Qifa Nabki; you’d be served better lol.
December 20, 2010 at 9:58 am
Norman,
News Flash ! Lebanon and Syria arent the centre of the universe.
The US media or public dont give a flying falafel about you.
December 20, 2010 at 11:51 am
I believe that Norman may be referring to the warnings to students as per this report:
http://articles.cnn.com/2010-12-08/justice/wikileaks.students_1_wikileaks-security-clearance-students?_s=PM:CRI
December 20, 2010 at 12:08 pm
Thank You Lally ,
Yes i it was CNN who reported .
Are you happy now , i was trying to complement Lebanon and the Lebanese , but hard for you to see that,
December 20, 2010 at 1:21 pm
Norm,
I think you confused the email warning, which was sent out to students in the School of International and Public Affairs (SIPA) after an alumnus at the U.S. State Department contacted the school.
The e-mail said that comments could harm students’ chances at landing government jobs due to intense background checks.
This email targeted this school in particular since most of those students usually apply for federal jobs. The premise for this email was that “Engaging in these activities would call into question your ability to deal with confidential information, which is part of most positions with the federal government.” according to a state department spokesman.
However, a spokesperson from the State Department said that the e-mail isn’t an official stance on the issue.
There was no” law prohibiting the discussion of a subject across the thousands of universities in the US.”
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2373889,00.asp
December 20, 2010 at 2:41 pm
The Lebanese are actually complimented for having a Cham Press and Watan like media such al-Akhbar.
We’tre actually being told that Cham Press and Watan media are the standards that the rest of the world should follow which al-Akhbar is already in compliance with.
You should never belittle the amount of loss the Lebanese have experienced over the last two weeks as a result of being deprived of al-Akhbar reporting. That was a huge blow to the efforts of the ‘parent’ media in ‘educating’ the masses as the case is in Syria.
December 20, 2010 at 3:14 pm
Norman, as became glaringly obvious during the run-up to the attack on Iraq, our media has become a mouthpiece for the regime-in-charge. “Speaking truth To power” has morphed into “Speaking For power’s truths”.
Aside from widespread reporting/chortling over our Arab friendlies being on Israel’s side when it comes to attacking Iran, there hasn’t been much discussion of the details of the cables. I wouldn’t expect Murr’s perfidious suggestions to have gained much attention here, Lebanon is way too confusing for the American style of soundbite journalism. Imagine the context required to explain why a Christian Defense Minister is advocating the Israeli enemy attack his fellow countrymen while sparing his own religious cohorts.
For a strongly nationalistic country such as the US of A, this kind of treacherous stuff would be incomprehensible to uber-patriotic Americans.
In a similiar vein, today there are reports on a Tel Aviv cable depicting Israel Shin Bet Chief Yuval Diskin discussing Fatah/Abbas requests for Israeli aid in destroying Hamas in Gaza. While not “news” to those who followed events in real time, this story may gain traction as yet another Arab ally who is on the side of the Israelis. MSNBC just had a bit on it; we’ll see if this cable tale gains wider attention.
Unfortunately, I have yet to find any links to the actual document as referenced above.
December 20, 2010 at 5:06 pm
Jumblatt ‘nominates’ WikiLeaks founder Assange for Nobel
By Patrick Galey
Daily Star staff
Tuesday, December 14, 2010
BEIRUT: With the international outcry against the damage caused by whistle-blowing website WikiLeaks gathering force, the organization’s founder Julian Assange received an unlikely supporter Monday in the form of Progressive Socialist Party Leader Walid Jumblatt, who backed the Australian for the next Nobel Peace Prize.
Jumblatt: Secrecy of Saudi-Syrian talks is important
December 20, 2010
Progressive Socialist Party leader MP Walid Jumblatt told Al-Manar television on Monday that the “most important thing about the Saudi-Syrian initiative is its secrecy.”
December 20, 2010 at 7:28 pm
The latest on STL:
Roux leaves Lebanon declaring contents of indictment will remain confidential even after submittal to Fransen.
Khamenei, better known as Supreme Leader or SL with an appropriately missing middle T, declares any STL indictments or rulings null and void.
Dr. Nouri Ali Zadeh (Iranian intellectual) belives Khamenei is afraid he may become an internationally outlawed ‘criminal’. Nour believes Iranian government itself is involved.
December 20, 2010 at 7:58 pm
PID #119,
That is a priceless observation.
December 20, 2010 at 8:53 pm
I thought this was amusing:
http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/2715.htm
December 20, 2010 at 9:42 pm
AIG, you realize that these are convictions of many folks, at the top of whom of course is none other than Ahmadinejad-san. The question, from a purely objective, detached, non-religious, non-tribal, purely humanistic point of view, is whether there is any validity to the argument that a forced movement of people to settle in an area, displacing other existing people in that area, can be targeted as unfair from a purely humanistic point of view, further arguing, as the woman does in the video, that the guilt of many Europeans about the Holocaust drove them to support the creation of the state of Israel – rather than other drivers that could have been better reasoned and more objective.
No need to repeat all your arguments. I know them very well. I am not wanting to argue one point or the other. What I want to point out is the very large number of people who seem to adopt the view in the video as a strong conviction and belief. How is this to be addressed? Does might imply right, so that if those people become stronger one day, then their arguments become the right ones? How would rational people try to catalyze a transcendence beyond these narrow beliefs to a look to the future and the way forward that is the best chance for our children and grandchildren?
The power of logic, rhetoric, and persuasion has got to be the answer, methinks. But, a necessary first condition is to have societies become truly civil and secular societies and limit any religious influence to the private lives of people. Wishful thinking? maybe but that this is a necessary condition is, I believe, an evident truism.
December 20, 2010 at 9:49 pm
Oh, the part about “the Jews” being responsible for the death of Christ is truly truly pathetic. This one belongs to the nefarious effects that religion has on some people. Pitiful.
December 20, 2010 at 11:19 pm
I think Sonya is saying: two wrongs do not make right.
It is very simple, we use that expression almost daily.
As for Jews killing Christ, I have a different perspective. If the Christians held for two millenia the belief that Jesus’ death was a necessary act of redepmtion for humanity, then how could they accuse anyone of killing him? It just doesn’t make sense. His death must be preordained to avoid contradiction, not to mention that He was considered by the church part of God and His Only Son. Can any human or group of humans really kill God?
December 21, 2010 at 12:08 am
Imagine ,a UN investigation into the death of Jesus,and determine who was responsible for his death.
That would make a real debate at this forum, just imagine.lol
December 21, 2010 at 12:10 am
correction:”to determine”,instead of “and determine”.
December 21, 2010 at 1:26 am
You can’t use Jesus again as a scapegoat to get away from STL.
God can make His own investigation. He can also find His killers and punish them and doesn’t need UN.
Humans need the UN to investigate their killers. Neither Khamenei nor HNA will get off the hook by creating such a blasphemous diversion. No one will fall into this trap.
The STL must go on.
December 21, 2010 at 4:43 am
You guys are too funny. Right on, anonymous, in 115.
This narrative about blaming “the Jews” for killing Jesus Christ is just about as moronic of a thought thread as there has ever been in history. Confirms the saying that needs to be applied to folks like Sonya:
Better keep your mouth shut and let people stay in doubt as to whether you are stupid than open your mouth and leave no doubt about it.
December 21, 2010 at 10:20 am
AIG,
Welcome back. I know the founders of MEMRI and I try to donate a few dollars to them every year. No organization has come close to doing the work they have done exposing anti-semites in the Arab world.
And not a hard job to do, apparently, if one is even slightly interested.
Unfortunately, Jesus Christ wouldn’t be the only innocent person who ever faced an untimely death. Why is his death more important than the millions of women and children caught in the wrong place at the wrong time?
I agree with anonymous and HP on this issue.
December 21, 2010 at 10:22 am
Sonja is an “educated” woman and a daughter of a Lebanese president (Chelsea Clinton?
)
If that is what she thinks…
December 21, 2010 at 10:45 am
anonymous,
You have no sense of humor,
December 21, 2010 at 11:29 am
LoL
Jeeezus. Now we have sensitive Jews here.
AIG. What’s so upsetting about the truth to you? Doesn’t the story say the Jewish establishment at the time call for the death of Jesus?
And so what if they did? After all he was not the Messiah! Or was he! And if he wasn’t, that makes him a liar and Under God’s Talmudic law deserving of death!
December 21, 2010 at 11:50 am
Gabriel,
Not sensitive, but very amused. She can say whatever she wants, we have the IDF.
Of course Jesus was not a god or a son of god. He was a simple Jew. And probably the Romans and Jewish elite had enough of him as a troublemaker and got rid of him. And this was used as an excuse to slaughter innocent Jews throughout the centuries by wisecracking Christians like you. And of course this was mostly sanctioned by the Vatican. Why don’t you try it again now, let’s see what happens.
December 21, 2010 at 12:03 pm
Since so many seem to be intent on discussing the spirit of Christmas allow me to suggest this video clip. It is , in my opinion, the most powerful compilation of images set to the words of the incomparable John Lennon and Yoko Ono ‘s War Is Over better known as And so this is Christmas, What have you done? ….
December 21, 2010 at 12:35 pm
AIG:
>>Of course Jesus was not a god or a son of god. He was a simple Jew. And probably the Romans and Jewish elite had enough of him as a troublemaker and got rid of him. <> And this was used as an excuse to slaughter innocent Jews throughout the centuries by wisecracking Christians like you. <> Not sensitive, but very amused. She can say whatever she wants, we have the IDF.
Why don’t you try it again now, let’s see what happens.<<
To all those Hizbi sympathizers. Ya Mamma. Help Me! I may need some personal protection from Hassan Nasrallah!
Hahaha.
AIG: You shameless troglodyte. Your "elite" kill little Jeezuses every day. Those "trouble makers" that won't let them build their Vision of a state.
Please take this verbiage and chest thumping machismo elsewhere, where it may be more appreciated.
December 21, 2010 at 12:36 pm
AIG:
>>Of course Jesus was not a god or a son of god. He was a simple Jew. And probably the Romans and Jewish elite had enough of him as a troublemaker and got rid of him.
OK. Stop there.
I see you are in agreement with “Sonja”. Of course you were. And all that meek talking about how an “educated” woman could talk like that was just you masquerading in these forums trying to get pity points.
Take your nonesense to a forum where it may work.
>> And this was used as an excuse to slaughter innocent Jews throughout the centuries by wisecracking Christians like you.
The Passion of the Christ broke records. Mel Gibson got a lynching from your Co-Thinker Propaganda machine. America is probably the most Christian of nations and the most “Jewish” friendly at the same time. Despite the fact that those “Christians” believe in the New Testament.
Why are the Jews living and succeeding in America… amongst all those Christians?
Finally, I’m not a “Christian”. I’m an atheist.
As noted above, take your nonesense to a forum where it may work.
>> Not sensitive, but very amused. She can say whatever she wants, we have the IDF.
Why don’t you try it again now, let’s see what happens.
To all those Hizbi sympathizers. Ya Mamma. Help Me! I may need some personal protection from Hassan Nasrallah!
Hahaha.
AIG: You shameless troglodyte. Your “elite” kill little Jeezuses every day. Those “trouble makers” that won’t let them build their Vision of a state.
Please take this verbiage and chest thumping machismo elsewhere, where it may be more appreciated.
December 21, 2010 at 12:38 pm
AIG:
–Of course Jesus was not a god or a son of god. He was a simple Jew. And probably the Romans and Jewish elite had enough of him as a troublemaker and got rid of him. –
OK. Stop there.
I see you are in agreement with “Sonja”. Of course you were. And all that meek talking about how an “educated” woman could talk like that was just you masquerading in these forums trying to get pity points.
Take your nonesense to a forum where it may work.
– And this was used as an excuse to slaughter innocent Jews throughout the centuries by wisecracking Christians like you. –
The Passion of the Christ broke records. Mel Gibson got a lynching from your Co-Thinker Propaganda machine. America is probably the most Christian of nations and the most “Jewish” friendly at the same time. Despite the fact that those “Christians” believe in the New Testament.
Why are the Jews living and succeeding in America… amongst all those Christians?
Finally, I’m not a “Christian”. I’m an atheist.
As noted above, take your nonesense to a forum where it may work.
– Not sensitive, but very amused. She can say whatever she wants, we have the IDF.
Why don’t you try it again now, let’s see what happens.–
To all those Hizbi sympathizers. Ya Mamma. Help Me! I may need some personal protection from Hassan Nasrallah!
Hahaha.
AIG: You shameless troglodyte. Your “elite” kill little Jeezuses every day. Those “trouble makers” that won’t let them build their Vision of a state.
Please take this verbiage and chest thumping machismo elsewhere, where it may be more appreciated.
December 21, 2010 at 12:52 pm
Gabriel,
Your kind always reminds me to be thankful for the IDF. Imagine having to be at the mercy of people like you for centuries. Look who gets all whiny when it becomes difficult to kill Jews at will. The difference between me and you, is that I will not kill you or Sonja for the BS you believe. In fact I don’t care what you believe. Just keep whining and stay away from me.
You really do not understand the difference between “Jewish elites in Roman times” and “the Jews” do you? Never mind, a person that thinks that Jews doing well in one country is an indication that Christians have treated Jews well over the last 2000 years is not someone susceptible to reason.
December 21, 2010 at 1:42 pm
Prophet,
After second thought, and since we seem to have extra sensitive Jews appearing all of a sudden – an indication of suspicious behaviour regarding the nature of the ‘crime’, which could only be interpreted as an admission of ‘guilt’ – it may after all have been the Jews or at least one of them who committed the ‘crime’. And I have the proof and also the proof that ‘God’ can easily find ‘His’ killer(s) and punish them:
“”Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”
“Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked.
“I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied. “Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”"
So the crime was solved long ago before the UN was created.
December 21, 2010 at 2:00 pm
My “Kind”. What’s that? The kind that appreciates the immense cultural contributions of your nation?
If you can’t live with my “kind”, what the hell are you doing in the Middle East?
If you can’t live with my “kind”, what luck will have living with Hamas and HA and Revolutionary Iran?
“The difference between me and you, is that I will not kill you or Sonja for the BS you believe. ”
Is this slander? Do you really believe I would kill you for the BS you believe? Really? Where do you get the pomp and gaul to deliver such slander, and so shamelessly?
-You really do not understand the difference between “Jewish elites in Roman times” and “the Jews” do you?
Unlike you, AIG. I don’t busy myself characterizing people. Brushing them with identities. He’s a “Christian”. There’s a “Jew”. We are all human beings with different characters and views.
Nor do I think- despite the best efforts of Memri to demonstrate otherwise- that the “Sonja” is oblivious to the difference between a bunch of Elites in Roman times colluding with the Roman powers and your average Shlomo who may be “Jewish”. Or should I say “Judaic”. You never know nowadays. You have “atheist” Jews, which seems a contradiction in terms.
Nor do I think the believing “Xians” are oblivious to the fact that their Super Star was in fact a “Jew”.
Or that back in Year whatever there were “Jews” that were neither here nor there.
- a person that thinks that Jews doing well in one country is an indication that Christians have treated Jews well over the last 2000 years is not someone susceptible to reason.
Treatment of “Jews” amongst “Xians” was Up and Down throughout history. There is no one single narrative. I’m sure you know your history well enough that you don’t need anyone to lecture you about it.
But it defies all manners of Logic to suggest that there was any Jewry at all in Europe/Russia/etc if all they ever got from their experiences amongst Xians was Pogroms, Concentration Camps, etc.
December 21, 2010 at 2:26 pm
Gabriel,
Treatment of Jews by Christians was not Up and Down throughout history. The Vatican was antisemitic to its core so was the Reform movement. Luther was a raving anitsemite. Sometimes Jews were tolerated as second class citizens restricted to certain trades and forced to wear distinguishing clothes but were allowed to live in specific geographic areas. I would not consider this treatment “Up”. Often they were expelled or killed. The reason there were Jews in Europe is that they were useful, just like African slaves in the US. Yes indeed, why were there African Americans in the US if all they got was slavery? Slavery must have had its ups and downs. It is not as if the Jews had many options.
December 21, 2010 at 4:39 pm
AIG;
At the end of all discussions irrespective of all topics…It’s all about Jews right?
December 21, 2010 at 5:01 pm
Danny,
No, it about live and let live and how to get there in the middle east. The Jews are just one sect in this huge mess. The Shias also for example suffered quite a lot of oppression over the centuries. So, how do we try to move forward? It is not by belittling anyones history or castigating the Vatican for excusing “the Jews” for the murder of Jesus.
December 21, 2010 at 6:35 pm
AIG:
Are you for real? Comparing world Jewry throughout the ages to Blacks?
The blacks were slaves, brought against their wills to the New World. Where do you want them to go? Their skin color is their marker.
Do yourself a favor and visit Europe some time. Perhaps you’ll find some Synagogues that are a little more ancient than 20th and 21st century edifices.
The Jews in Europe in the 19th century and early 20th century will well-to-do. They were not riff-raff living in ghettos.
As for the “Second Class” remark. Perhaps. But at least we can explain that away by arguing that their societies were not that evolved 1000 years ago.
What excuse does Israel have TODAY to treat its Arab citizens as second class?
Judenfrei’s equivalent to today is Arabfrei in Israel. Yes Yes Yes. Israel’s “excuses” and “arguments” are of course justified. Of course you poor poor AIG, you need a “Jewish-only” or a “Jewish-Clear-Majority” state with an IDF to protect you. Sort of like the arguments Hitler made back in the days when he said the Jews were draining the German economy making the German people weak.
Same Arguments. Different Peoples.
December 21, 2010 at 7:05 pm
The Jews in Europe in the 19th century and early 20th century will well-to-do. They were not riff-raff living in ghettos.
Gabriel,
You’ve been reading too much anti-Jewish propaganda.
Life in the Roman Ghetto was one of crushing poverty, due to the severe restrictions placed upon the professions that Jews were allowed to perform.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_ghettos_in_Europe
December 21, 2010 at 7:38 pm
Thank you AP. Of course the last ghetto to be opened was the one in Rome, only after the Pope was defeated in 1882. So much for “ups and downs” under Christianity:
“In 1565, Pope Paul IV created the Roman Ghetto and issued papal bull Cum nimis absurdum, forcing Jews to live in a specified area. The area of Rome chosen for the ghetto was the most undesirable quarter of the city, owing to constant flooding by the Tiber River. At the time of its founding, the four-block area was designated to contain roughly 1,000 inhabitants. However, over the years, the Jewish community grew, which caused severe overcrowding. Since the area could not expand horizontally (the ghetto was surrounded by high walls), the Jews built vertical additions to their houses, which blocked the sun from reaching the already dank and narrow streets. Life in the Roman Ghetto was one of crushing poverty, due to the severe restrictions placed upon the professions that Jews were allowed to perform. This was the last of the original ghettos to be abolished in Western Europe; not until 1882, when the kingdom of Italy conquered Rome from the Pope, was the Ghetto finally opened, with the walls themselves being torn down in 1888. Due to the three hundred plus years of isolation from the rest of the city, the Jews of the Roman Ghetto developed their own dialect, known as Giudeo-romanesco, which differs from the dialect of the rest of the city in its preservation of 16th-century dialectical forms and its liberal use of romanized Hebrew words.”
December 21, 2010 at 7:58 pm
AP:
My usage of the term “ghetto” was in line with its modern definition. An:
•area of a city, especially a very poor area, where people of a particular race or religion live closely together and apart from other people
As a child she lived in one of New York’s poorest ghettos.
to live in ghetto conditions
• old use in the past, an area of a city where Jews were made to live
But thanks for this educational Wiki Link, as my educational sources betray my rabid Anti-Semitic Teachings.
Today I learnt that some of those “ghettos” were:
“The character of ghettos has varied through times. In some cases, the ghetto was a Jewish quarter with a relatively affluent population”
Tell me, AP, as per the following note on Amsterdam:
Jodebreestraat was a street “in the very heart of the Jewish quarter.”[11] In the mid 15th century the Ashkenazi Jews began to arrive in Amsterdam in large numbers from Germany and Eastern Europe – especially Ukraine, where 100,000 Jews have been slaughtered by the Ukrainian peasants during the Khmelnytsky Uprising.
Why did those 100,000 Jews go to Amsterdam where there were a lot of Reformist Christians led by the very Anti-Semitic Martin Luther?
Why didn’t they go to Turkey or North Africa instead where they lived in relative peace and harmony with the Muslims? I mean, for one, it is a just a boat ride across the Black Sea? I mean if those Vile Catholics and their Vile Vatican were so damn horrible!
As I said to your buddy previously. Those sob stories don’t work around here. If you don’t like the horribly Anti-Semitic neighbourhood that is the Middle East, just buy a plane ticket and go to the United States.
December 21, 2010 at 8:31 pm
Ghassan, #125
Great post,
Great video,
Great message.
There is another side of holidays’ experience (most religious holidays) that is often overlooked and ignored.
Not only people are losing the true spirit of holidays, but they are overwhelmed by all the materialism, which is being forced on them.
In this day and age (and the bad economy), the spirit of Christmas has truly become overshadowed by commercialism. With Christmas displays set up in the stores well before Halloween, it’s easier than ever to get lost in the materialism of it all and lose touch with the true meaning of Christmas.
The pressure is on, very early, and most people are stressing their wallets, credit cards, and themselves to please others when they are in need themselves.
Holidays in general, and Christmas in particular, often brings unwelcome guests — stress and depression. And it’s no wonder. In an effort to pull off a perfect holiday, people find themselves facing a dizzying array of demands — parties, shopping, baking, cleaning and entertaining, to name a few.
Marry Christmas to you and yours,
Season’s greeting to everyone.
December 21, 2010 at 9:00 pm
Gabriel,
If you haven’t noticed, it is you who is complaining about how Israel is acting. We like the middle east just fine in spite the fact it is filled with raving antisemites. If you have a problem, well, that is what the IDF is for. Or you can stand in line to get a visa like many educated Lebanese. It is up to you. Either way, I really don’t care.
How typical to ask why the Jews went to Amsterdam instead of why 100,000 of them were slaughtered in the Ukraine because they “killed Jesus”. You will never learn. As for how the Jews were treated badly in Muslim countries, I recommend Martin Gilbert’s latest:
In Ishmael's House: A History of Jews in Muslim Lands
December 21, 2010 at 11:02 pm
How about this experiment.
Erase all the past. Forgive all the guilt. Define the “initial conditions” and the “boundary conditions” as they exist today, add the constraint of desirable peace, justice, and prosperity, and then proceed to offer models and solutions for going forward.
I think the lawyers that now form the majority of politicians should all be fired and replaced with scientists. Oh, and of course all those religious leaders should be still given state support everywhere, but only if they swear off any involvement in politics and limit themselves to purely religious and personal betterment of those who chose to follow a religion.
I offer this pearl of wisdom for free to the readers of QN. In the old Arab days, a wise thought like that would have cost a few camels, but to you, my friends, it is my Christmas gift.
Merry Christmas
December 22, 2010 at 12:42 am
HP @140
I like that experiment. Sounds great!
Wait a minute, It sounds familiar… of course! it’s exactly what religions use to lure people. Are you establishing a new one
December 22, 2010 at 1:03 am
AIG:
Remind me once again- why do you post here?
– We like the middle east just fine in spite the fact it is filled with raving antisemites. –
Well if you do. Then maybe you shouldn’t be posting videos of so-called “Anti-Semites”. Just learn to live in your environment!
– If you haven’t noticed, it is you who is complaining about how Israel is acting. –
Complaining? Not complaining actually. Just amused about how the Pot is calling the Kettle black. Complaining about being treated Second Class and then turning around and doing the same thing in the state when you get one. Just amused that the irony seems completely lost in you!
Now you’re complaining about how the Muslims treated you? Fine, those Ukrainians should have moved to India. Just like the Parsis did when they were mistreated in Iran. And look they’re flourishing! Maybe the Hindus don’t have that same penchant for Anti-Semitism. The point of bringing up the Amsterdam story was not to belittle the suffering of Jewry under the various Pogroms. It was to demonstrate that unlike the Black Slaves in America, they didn’t have a mobility issue. Maybe in that Jewish district (oops “Ghetto”) in Amsterdam living with raving Anti-Semites who follow Martin Luther (your words- he was a Raving Anti-Semite)was not as bad as you’d like me to believe.
I’ll end this post with Season’s Greetings. Not of course to celebrate the birth of that trouble maker Jeeezus. But a warm and friendly Happy Festivus! For the Rest-of-Us!
December 22, 2010 at 8:47 am
My Big Fat Black Arab Kettle
Just amused about how the Pot is calling the Kettle black.
Gabriel,
When you can post some links showing…
1.) Israel refusing to recognize a single Arab or Muslim state.
2.) Israel forcing her minority citizens to live in ghettoes.
3.) Israel forcing her minority citizens into certain professions.
4.) Israel forcing her minority citizens to wear symbols on their clothing to identify their religion.
5.) Israel making intermarriage illegal.
6.) No Israeli NGOs or human rights organizations to help minority citizens of Israel.
7.) No civil rights to Israeli minority citizens including freedom of religion, the right to vote, and freedom of speech.
8.) Israeli minorities do not have the ability to testify in court against Israeli Jews.
…then we will take you a little more seriously.
December 22, 2010 at 9:36 am
AP:
Do you really think you are worth my time digging up links? I mean really.
Like I asked AIG before you: What’s your purpose here?
But I would like to say something about this point:
– 6.) No Israeli NGOs or human rights organizations to help minority citizens of Israel.
Even in their darkest hour- Nazi Germany- the Jews got help from some Germans. You guys even made a movie about one of them- Schindler.
You want a trophy because Israel allows NGOs to operate on its soil? Has Lebanon’s Hashish made it all the way to Israel already?
December 22, 2010 at 10:56 am
Like I asked AIG before you: What’s your purpose here?
Gabriel,
Speaking for myself, I am here to both learn from well-educated Arabs and to break-down centuries of ignorance.
December 22, 2010 at 11:04 am
Gabriel,
It seems you had a crush on Sonja and can’t get over the fact she is an ignorant bigot. Can’t help you there.
I think you like this guy less:
http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/2536.htm
December 22, 2010 at 11:15 am
“Six of the region’s leading operators have signed a construction and maintenance agreement to build the RCN (Regional Cable Network) — a multi-terabit cable system…Etisalat, Mobily (Saudi Arabia), Jordan Telecom (Jordan), Zain — Mada coalition (Jordan) and Syrian Telecom together with other European partners have joined forces to build the mammoth 4,000 kilometre diversified cable system, which will provide reliable telecommunication and internet connectivity for all users in those countries and the surrounding nations.”
Lebanon was left out because ” who needs high speed communication when we have a fully operational NATIONAL UNITY government”
December 22, 2010 at 11:31 am
AP:
– I am here to both learn from well-educated Arabs and to break-down centuries of ignorance
That’s good. So answer me this, since we are on the topic of Anti-Semitism in Middle Ages Europe. Why did those Ukrainians go to Amsterdam when they escaped the Pogroms in Ukraine?
You entered the argument challenging the statement I made that the narrative of European Jewry was “Up and Down” throughout the ages. I assume the intent was to suggest it was only ever “Down”.
And now that we’ve established you are here to “learn” from “well-educated Arabs” (that’s me
), I will address your Post #143.
In present day Iran, or Saudi Arabia. Not exactly bastions of religious freedom, minorities don’t wear distinctive clothing.
I bring this up (and I focus here on one of the points you raised) because you are trying to get me to judge Israeli actions based on actions in Muslim Lands or Christian Lands (with the exception of Nazi Germany) in the Middle Ages.
The year 2010 is not the same is the year 1200. We have TV, we have internet. We have Round-the-Clock-News. We have ID cards, and national databases. We have DNA markers and Fingerprints. We don’t need distinctive clothing to prove or disprove “Second Class”.
In Israel, the Jew and the Arab are not equal. You don’t really need internet links and articles and Wiki entries to prove or disprove this point. It is true by construction. “Israel” is by construct, a “Jewish” state. Every law that exists follows from this simple construct. Every contentious issue that has arisen in recent years are derived from this simple construct.
At this point, the existence of Israel is a given. But what are you going to do in 50-100 years when the Arab population mushrooms in size? When the country is 50% Arab, and 50% Jew? How about when it is 60% Arab and 40% Jew?
To pursue policies that guarantee in perpetuity a “Jewish” state must invariably mean that you pursue policies that are more favorable to the Jew than to the Arab.
You bring up “intermarriage”. Some years ago, a poll was conducted in Israel that suggested over 50% (I can’t remember the figure, but I am sure Google can help you find it) of the population believes intermarriage is tantamount to Treason.
Maybe you fall within that category, maybe you don’t.
You want to break down ignorance. That seems a good place to start.
December 22, 2010 at 11:40 am
AIG:
– It seems you had a crush on Sonja and can’t get over the fact she is an ignorant bigot. Can’t help you there.
All I know about Sonja is a 1 minute video clip on Memri, with her talking about stuff that apparently you agreed with (you confirmed that the Jewish “elite” and the Romans killed trouble-making Jeezus in Post # 124). So whether she is an ignorant bigot or not is not immediately evident to me.
I’ve had more interactions with you on this Forum, and it is becoming increasing evident that you’re an Ignorant Bigot.
I was sort of hoping you can help me there!
December 22, 2010 at 12:17 pm
Gabriel,
As far as I am concerned there is no difference between you and Nasrallah. You are both against a Jewish state, you are just masking your hate and bigotry with BS. 50 years ago you would have been a Nasserist. That did not work and Islamism is too much for you, so you now mask your anti-Israel rhetoric in the usual leftists mumbo jumbo. Eventually you will learn that criticizing others does not solve any of your problems.
What counts are facts on the ground. The Arabs in Israel are richer on average and have more rights than the average Lebanese. Of course Israel is far from perfect, but when benchmarked against any of our neighbors, we are light years ahead. But go ahead, criticize, somehow you believe that will bring salvation to Lebanon.
December 22, 2010 at 12:49 pm
IHDTA:
Why would Lebanon want that?
. Given the European and Saudi involvement, the project may be political. You never know. The Israelis may sneak in some Snoopers in those systems. It’s better if we stick to Walkie Talkies.
AIG:
I am not too concerned about your concerns. Think of me as the Devil’s Advocate, or better still, the Devil personified!
The questions I present above are the sort of serious questions Israelis should be addressing.
As for you last comment. Yes, Israel is better, grants more rights to all its citizens, is more civilized than Iran, SA, Syria, etc. etc. etc.
But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t treat its Arab citizens as second class.
December 22, 2010 at 1:03 pm
Gabriel,
Israel has a free and vibrant press and frequent free and fair elections. We can ask ourselves the questions that we need. Nitpicking about your neighbor’s yard and giving them advice while neglecting yours will get you to where the Arab states are right now.
I sometimes wonder how much more advanced the Arab countries would be by now if all this anti-Israel energy would have been directed to bettering society in these countries. But of course, this is what the leaders want, to deflect energies and attention from them to Israel. And you are falling for this.
December 22, 2010 at 1:20 pm
AIG,
Whenever some one criticizes Israel or the Jews, you always accuse them of being jew hater. When are you going to stop using these anti-Semite accusations as a tool in your debates? Don’t you think that you’ve already over used this cheap tactic?
I have Jewish friends here, who are always criticizing Israeli racist policies toward Palestinians; does that make them Jew haters or anti-Semitic?
Even Nasrallah, he never said a bad word about Jews or Jewry; He definitely hate the Israelis and the Zionist, but I never heard him say a bad word about Jews and the Jewish faith, aside from the all time differences between Jews and other faiths, which is not our topic here.
Can you tell me if there is any Jew in Israel who does not hate Arabs in general and Muslims in particular?
Even Nazi Germany, didn’t have German roads, and Jewish road, BUT Israel does have Arab roads and Jewish road. How racist can it get there? And you have the nerves to accuse people of being anti-Semitic when they mention such subject, or criticize Israeli.
Not wanting a Jewish state does not mean anti Semitic. Being anti Israel does not mean anti Semitic, because I views Jewry as a faith, not a nation. You can believe whatever you want; I don’t have to agree with you, and you should not expect me to.
Would you want a Muslim state in Palestine? I’m sure you would not. But what if one day the Palestinians decided that they wanted one? Do the have the rights to make that choice in your opinion?
December 22, 2010 at 1:39 pm
Jew-haters R-Us
Prophet said:
Even Nazi Germany, didn’t have German roads, and Jewish road, BUT Israel does have Arab roads and Jewish road.
No, they had far worse:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Laws
And as far as “Jewish Only Roads”, that myth still exists apparently. It should be termed “Israel-Only Roads”. Small little detail…
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=38&x_article=1791
December 22, 2010 at 1:39 pm
Prophet,
“I views Jewry as a faith, not a nation”
Herein lies the problem, you think you know better than the Jews what they are. This is not a matter of agreeing or disagreeing. It is just plain racist.
Israel does not have different roads for Arabs and Jews. In the West Bank there are such roads for security purposes. Not wanting a Jewish state is unadulterated antisemitism. If you want to be less of a bigot you can say the Jews have a right to a state in general but not in Palestine.
Criticizing Israel to improve it is one thing. Criticizing Israel to make it disappear is another. This subtle difference is the line between criticism and antisemitism.
December 22, 2010 at 2:25 pm
AIG,155
You didn’t address my question of Palestinian’s right to choose a Muslim state, if they chose to. The day you agree to a hypothetical future Muslim state, I’ll accept your Jewish state.
You also ignored my question as to whether the Jews who criticize Israel are anti Semitic or not.
There is a “Good” excuse for Jewish only road; security. Again, every racist Israeli policy has an excuse, and always security. They do exist, and you know it. I don’t care what excuse you and your state wants to use to justify these roads, but they exist, and they are racist.
Some Arabs could also claim for the sake of Arab security there should not be a Jewish state. How would you like that?
Is your security an excuse for every racist policy?
You view your faith as a nation, when 99.99 % of the world considers Judaism a faith, and not a nation. You can’t change that. There is not any prove that Judaism is race or nation. There are Jews in every race and color.
You can call me a bigot and anti Semite all day long; it makes no difference to me, AIG. It is in your nature to call people bigots when they disagree with you on Israel.
It is not my responsibility to improve the state of Israel, it is yours.
Israel can exist as a nation, but not for Jews only. I oppose a Jewish state or a Zionist state for two reason; I oppose states ,which are based on one religion, and for one religion only. I oppose all states, which are based on a racist idea, whether it’s Zionism or Nazism.
I do not want any Muslim , Jewish , or Christian state in the whole world ,and in the middle east in particular.
December 22, 2010 at 2:46 pm
AIG:
– Not wanting a Jewish state is unadulterated antisemitism. –
You’re right. We all want a “Jewish” State. So I hereby declare, on behalf of all my fellow anti-semites here on QN, that we are commited to a “Jewish” state in Israel.
Since the % numbers of those Pesky Israeli Arabs is steadily increasing, we encourage you to tear a page from the Inquisition’s policy manuals and expel, oops, I mean relocate, all those Israeli Arabs.
It is the least we can do to demonstrate our utter commitment to a democratic “Jewish” state.
Yahweh-forbid we should be thought of as Anti-Semites!
December 22, 2010 at 3:30 pm
Prophet,
How can we even have a discussion if you cannot accept what the Jews tell you they are? The Jews are a nation whether you like it or not because we have self-determined ourselves as such. Zionism is and was a SECULAR movement. I am an atheist and a Jew. I don’t plan on repeating all the arguments here, ask HP for a short course, I think I was able to get through to him.
The bottom line is very simple, if you want to solve the problems in the middle east by negotiation, then you have to accept that the Jews are a nation, just like I accept that the Palestinians are a nation. Otherwise, we can solve the problems, if you call that solving, through war. We can compromise on many things, but we are not going to compromise on the fact that any solution must include a Jewish state in the middle east. It is that simple. If you do not like the idea, join Hezbollah.
December 22, 2010 at 3:34 pm
Gabriel,
I gave prophet a hint how not to be an antisemite. I will repeat it for you. Instead of denying the Jews the rights of nationhood or a state, how about saying that you do not mind a Jewish state, but not in Palestine? Then I can “demote” you from antisemite to wishful thinker, which is quite a lot better.
December 22, 2010 at 3:51 pm
Ya AIG, Professor HP, please!
December 22, 2010 at 4:02 pm
Jeezus Christos AIG.
Now you’re just being mean. Please re-read my post #157.
I want to be neither an anti-Semite, nor a Wishful Thinker!
I believe in the “Jewish” State and I will have it nowhere else but in “Palestine”. I have openly encouraged you to offload your Arab problem by “relocating” those pesky Israeli Arabs.
What more do you want from me? A pass to set up gas chambers to get rid of your problem?
December 22, 2010 at 4:20 pm
Gabriel,
If you want to be neither an antisemite nor a wishful thinker nor a wise-ass I would suggest you say to yourself the following:
The Jewish state in the middle east is here to stay. Now, what is the best way to deal with it?
December 22, 2010 at 4:24 pm
AIG,158
I made it clear that your accusations to me of being anti-Semite are useless, and meaningless. You are as anti Arab, as any one could get.
Being an anti Arab is as bad as being anti Semite, unless you think being a Jew is better than being an Arab. lol
I don’t need hints from you. What I need, is for you to admit the truth about your own society and state that they are built on racist and religious ideas.
Once you are able to do that, I think we can go on to the question of how we could find solutions. Solutions can only be found when the problem is defined and diagnosed.
Racism has prevented Israel from making any real concession with Palestinians.
Racism is what driving every Israeli government and Jewish organization to support, and build more settlements. More settlements mean no viable Palestinian state, and denial to the Palestinians rights.
Unless, there is a different attitude, this peace process is not going any where. Negotiation for the sake of negotiations has been going on for over 10 years now.
Racism is what preventing Israel from realizing its own mistakes. It the self righteous attitude, that is embedded in the Israeli mind, which will always prevent both sides from reaching any peace.
Don’t ask me to recognize your rights to a Jewish state, while the idea of Palestinian state is nothing but an illusion. Don’t expect me to believe that a racist state , which is armed to the teeth, is willing to negotiate with defenseless people on equal terms. If and when that happen, the result would be an unfair solution, because the strong will impose his will. Those types of solutions will never last.
December 22, 2010 at 4:26 pm
AIG:
Jeezus!
How much more of an offer do you want! Shall I slay myself on account of my Second Rate Arab blood?!?
The Jewish State is here in the Middle East. I have already made a proposal to you on how best to deal with its conundrums! Make it Jew Only, or should I say Arabfrei!
Shall we empty out Lebanon and Syria as well?
December 22, 2010 at 5:00 pm
AIG:
On a serious note. There are only two viable solutions to the situation.
Solution 1: A binational state that covers Israel and the Occupied territories. All citizens are treated equally.
Solution 2: Gaza goes to Egypt, the WB to Jordan.
I think most reasonable “Arabs” would agree with this sentiment.
The problem is that over the long run, they both amount to the same thing for the “Jews”.
If Option 2 (or a variant thereof) is pursued, then as the number of Arabs swell within Israel, the Jews are back in Square 1.
The question has never really been what the Arabs were going to do about it. They’ve always had the upper hand, but unfortunately, fools amongst them followed authoritarian leaders and offered themselves as fodder to the “Cause”.
The question will always be… what is Israel going to do about its presence, and the sort of Presence/Future it wants in the region. One of contempt, sectarianism, hatred? Or one of harmony and peace.
December 22, 2010 at 5:28 pm
Gabriel,
No problem, let’s wait 50 years and see what happens. Have fun living in your Islamic states meanwhile.
Generation after generation of Arabs keep thinking that time is on their side and that Israel faces some existential dilemma or internal weaknesses that will bring to its demise. But lo and behold, it is all BS, just as is the demographic issue. The percentage of Arab Israelis will never grow over 35% as their fertility rates are coming down substantially while that of Jews is not. If you disagree, let’s wait 50 years and find out.
As for “harmony and peace”, don’t make me laugh. First implement that in ONE Arab country and let’s talk again. So at this point my choice is “contempt” but I am willing to change my mind quickly when I see true democratic reforms in Arab countries.
December 22, 2010 at 5:47 pm
No No No. Me and the Middle East!
. I am proudly Canadian. This is my home now. Keep the crazy Muslim states there where they can be Israel’s friendly neighbours!
Your problem AIG is that you don’t see just how much your idealogy promotes the type of neo-fanaticism we see today in your friendly neighbourhood.
December 22, 2010 at 6:16 pm
Gabriel,
I imagined as much. The challenges of changing the middle east are not really for you. You are good at giving advice from afar.
My very existence and very basic desire for a Jewish state promote fanaticism, nothing neo about that. Hajj Amin Al Husseini, Nasser, Nasrallah, Arafat etc. etc. are all fanatics from different eras but with the same basic ideology regarding me and my identity. And you and prophet are just links in this magnificent historical chain. The very notion of a Jewish state makes you go bananas. I have accepted a long time ago that this is never going to change. Maybe the ideology will have different names but it will always advocate getting rid of Israel. Oh well, c’est la vie.
December 22, 2010 at 6:56 pm
AIG,
IT must be Very convenient for you to avoid answering real questions (#164), by labeling me as fanatic (#169), and earlier as anti-Semite (#156).lol
It appears that people have two choices when debating you; either agreeing with everything you say, or are labeled as fanatic or anti-Semite.
The more I listen to Israelis like you, the more I’m convinced that Israelis are not ready to accept a solution where they live without dominating others.
It is that same mentality that produces Israel’s leadership that can only think of wars and occupation as the only solutions to the tough questions.
I finally found myself agreeing with you on something; that your: very existence as a racist state promotes fanaticism, your very existence as state that was build though terror and ethnic cleansing, promotes fanaticism.
December 22, 2010 at 6:58 pm
– And you and prophet are just links in this magnificent historical chain. The very notion of a Jewish state makes you go bananas. —
Bananas, no. Apples, maybe
The State is called Israel. That it is predominantly “Jewish” or not is not something that concerns me personally, and I doubt very much it concerns Prophet either.
No-one would have a problem with Israel if it just Were. The problem is that it is a State that “has to be”. The adjective “Jewish” is just add-on. An adjective that betrays your nationalist fervor.
My position (I will not speak for Prophet- he has fingers and can type) is true irrespective of what that State is. I am Canadian, and if the predominantly Anglo-Saxon populace were to say it is an “Anglo-Saxon” state, the notion would be no less “Racist” than suggesting that Israel has to be for eternity a “Jewish” state.
This sort of criticism does not apply only to Israel, it applies to Arab states as well (who for instance suppress Kurds), or Turkey, or “Islamic” republics, like Pakistan and Iran, or “Islamic” kingdoms like Saudi Arabia.
December 22, 2010 at 7:08 pm
“Going Bananas” and the 19 Examples of Utopia
The Jewish state in the middle east is here to stay. Now, what is the best way to deal with it?
AIG,
The following 19 states do not recognize the State of Israel (the remaining 172 member states do):
The following 19 UN member states do not recognize Israel as a state:[15] Afghanistan,[16] Algeria,[17] Bahrain[18] Bangladesh,[19] Chad,[20] Cuba, Indonesia, Iran[21] Iraq,[22] Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya,[23] North Korea, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Syria,[24] United Arab Emirates[25] and Yemen.
Notice that the 19 countries listed above, constitute some of the most repressive regimes in the world.
It’s all making sense now!
December 22, 2010 at 7:36 pm
AP,
Apparently the two favorite ways to deal with Israel is to move to Canada etc. or tell the Israelis what they really are and demand they accept it as a prerequisite for negotiation. Just two additional ways of not coming to grips with the problem: If we close our eyes and repeat to ourselves what we think the world ought to be like, it will magically change!!!
December 22, 2010 at 8:02 pm
AP.
Who knew you were such a fan of the UN!
Here’s a nice way to spend your time, go through the list
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_resolutions_concerning_Israel
And pick out which resolutions condemning Israeli actions were approved by Democratic Non-Repressive nations.
It will be a fun exercise, and should keep you busy for a while.
December 22, 2010 at 8:31 pm
Gabriel,
AIG knows the truth; He does not need this exercise. He knows all of that. He is just in denial, to say the least.
AIG, I’m still waiting for a rational response minus the usual accusations Are you ok with a Muslim (Palestine) state as your neighbor?
December 22, 2010 at 8:45 pm
Prophet:
I’m just toying with AIG and AP, and having a little fun. It’s a slow day at work. Of course they know the argument too well. But what can you do, what options do they really have. To admit they’re wrong would mean shattering their whole world-view. Do you really think any of them will have a serious intellectual discussion on the topic?
AIG:
I did some number crunching for you. I had to make some assumptions on population growth rates, and current demographics:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel
Based on the numbers, in exactly 125 years, the population breakdown of Israel will be 50-50.
I think you should take action now while the non-Jews constitute only 25% of the population of Israel. It’s easier to deal with the problem.
You should just take me up on my offer. Expel those nuisances from Israel.
December 22, 2010 at 9:01 pm
Gabriel,
This reminds me of the guy who broke into someone’s house, and robbed it clean; Furniture and all.
The owner of the house was humble, and unable to return his belongings by force, decided to go to the robber, and tried to negotiate the return of some of his essential items that he needs badly.
The robber told him; the minute I return a tiny item to you, it means that, I admit robbing your house, and you will keep demanding your belongings. SO, I never robbed anyone’s house, I inherited all of the stuff I have, and you better not show up at my door anymore.
December 22, 2010 at 9:06 pm
Guys,
You may want to read my comment # 130 which was just released by his highness mr. QN.
Basically, I think I solved that mystery ‘crime’, and since QN released the comment, that would be an indication that there could be some merits to my ‘investigation’. My conclusion does not differ much from that of Sonya except that she did not rely on ‘reliable’ evidence as I did.
(So, why the heck are you picking against me your highness?)
Merry Christmass to everyone. At least we have the ‘solid’ evidence now to celebrate!
Speaking of evidence, Mr. Bellmar is now telling us that his indictments will be based on ‘solid’ evidence. Looks like ’tis the season for ‘solid’ crime resolution,
في حين يُرجح أن يشهد الوضع اللبناني المزيد من الاسترخاء في الأيام المقبلة ببركة الأعياد وفضلها، بدا أن المدعي العام الدولي القاضي دانيال بيلمار يحاول «تمهيد الأرض» أمام قراره الاتهامي وترميم مصداقيته من خلال رسالة تطمين وجهها الى من يهمه الأمر بقوله إن قرار الاتهام، عندما يُرسل إلى قاضي الإجراءات التمهيدية لتصديقه، سيكون مستنداً إلى أدلة موثوق فيها، ولا يرقى إليها الشك، مؤكداً أنه لن يقدم هذا القرار إلا إذا كان مقتنعاً به على المستوى المهني والأخلاقي.
وقال بيلمار لصفحة التواصل على الموقع الالكتروني للمحكمة الدولية والتي أطلقتها «وحدة التواصل الخارجي» في المحكمة: أنا لم استخدم تعبير «شهود الزور»، لأنّ استخدامه ينطوي على استنتاج، أيّ إنك قد استنتجت بالفعل أنّ الشخص قد كذب، وأفضل استخدام تعبير «شاهد غير موثوق فيه».
وأضاف: «سرت بعض الشائعات مفادها، أنّ قرار الاتهام قد يستند إلى أدلة قدّمها من يعرفون بشهود الزور أو الشهود غير الموثوق فيهم، وعلى سبيل المثال، عندما كنت أسعى الى إطلاق سراح من كانوا محتجزين، اعتمدت في ذلك على تقييمي للأدلة المتاحة، واستنتجت أنّ تلك الأدلة لم تكن موثوقة بما فيه الكفاية لتبرير الاستمرار في احتجاز هؤلاء الأشخاص، لذا فإنّ العنصر الرئيس في هذه العملية هو تقييم مصداقية الشهود، وإذا استنتجنا أنّ الشهود ليس موثوقاً فيهم، فإننا لن نعتمد على شهادتهم، خلافاً لما يقوله البعض عن أنّ قرار الاتهام، سيستند إلى أدلة يقدمها أشخاص يفتقرون للمصداقية».
ورداً على سؤال بشأن الاتهامات للمحكمة بالتسييس، أجاب بيلمار: «هذه الاتهامات يطلقها الخائفون من قرار المحكمة او من الجهود التي تبذلها للوصول الى كشف الحقيقة».
وأكد انه «لا يتلقى تعليمات من احد ولا يتأثر بالسياسة، وأنه يتخذ قراراته باستقلال تام ومن دون إملاءات من أحد».
في هذا الوقت، عكس السفير السوري في بيروت علي عبد الكريم علي خلال زيارته أمس الى كل من الرئيسين سليم الحص وعمر كرامي، مناخات إيجابية تواكب المسعى السوري – السعودي، كما أكدت لـ«السفير» مصادر اطلعت على أجواء اللقاءين، مشيرة الى ان السفير السوري اكد لهما ان هناك أملاً وتفاؤلاً بإيجاد حل للأزمة في لبنان، لكنه مشروط بأن يتحرك المسؤولون اللبنانيون نحو الاتفاق على ترتيبات تؤدي الى تسهيل تنفيذ الحل، وهناك استعداد سوري وسعودي لدعم أي توافق لبناني.
Prophet gets all the credit for his ‘blasphemous’ suggestion in 116!
December 22, 2010 at 9:15 pm
anonymous, In #116 I was just having fun.You were too serious to see the humor in it.lol
I don’t attend any debate that deals with religion. POLITICS, YES, BUT NOT RELIGION.
December 22, 2010 at 11:34 pm
Gabriel,
It’s no use arguing with AIG, unless as you say you would like to toy with him (I’m into the toying part camp as well). His position, historical and present day is so full of holes and does not measure up to any reasoned scrutiny. Others have tried to debate him in the past on these points(including yours truly) on this blog to no avail (di2 el may may).
He says that he’s an atheist Jew. Never heard of that before!!! yet he claims that the jews are a tribe and that the piece of land on the eastern Med belongs to them. Based on what? I don’t know. Was this tribe first to occupy that land? Obviously not, since by their own historical account they left Egypt (not on so good terms) and had to fight the existing inhabitants of that a lot at the time (his tribe was not their first).
However, when one reads the reasoning given by 99.999% of the jews’ claim to that land, it is always based on biblical account (promised land/chosen people, etc.). This position can at least be debated, especially the abstract part of God making special promisses to only one tribe and not to any of the others on earth (God playing favoritism here).
AIG’s position does not add up.
December 23, 2010 at 12:33 am
Who knew you were such a fan of the UN?
Gabriel,
I am not a fan of the UN. Yet, a member state like Israel is recognized by 172 member states out of 191. Maybe one day soon Palestine will be a full member state. INGS is a great forum
December 23, 2010 at 12:49 am
(continued)
The UNGA is a great forum for Arab and Muslim majority states (57) to “go bananas” about Israel. Apparently, this is an important part of Arab and Muslim culture and so there has to be a place for like-minded representatives to “vent”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_world
Fortunately, UNGA resolutions are meaningless, but they do provide an important service.
On rare occassions, the more useful UNSC isolates muslim regimes that terrorize the world (and the ME) like Saddam Hussein and Iran, or institutes murder investigations on the behest of ME countries overwhelmed by muslim terrorists like Lebanon and the STL.
All-in-all, the UN is the best we can do under the circumstances.
December 23, 2010 at 2:42 am
Professor HP (141)
“How about this experiment.
Erase all the past. Forgive all the guilt. Define the “initial conditions” and the “boundary conditions” as they exist today, add the constraint of desirable peace, justice, and prosperity, and then proceed to offer models and solutions for going forward.”
I am intrigued by this proposal. HP, how do you foresee solving the field equations once you complete the formulation of your boundary-value problem? Are you going to be seeking a closed form solution or would you be resorting to numerical approximation techniques? If it is the latter (which I assume is most likely) how would you verify the solution? Just curious.
December 23, 2010 at 3:27 am
Prophet 179,
But I too was having fun in 118 with your 116. It seems that you do not have the Canucks sense of humour. It is very very cold just like the country itself. Only Gaby seems to catch on to it easily. But he is also a Canuck. HP by the way thought we’re both funny in 119.
I’ll try to get you the latest ‘funniest’ Canuck poem, but I need to be able to post pictures.
December 23, 2010 at 10:29 am
Habibi anonymous, I think we’re in resonance!
Of course my allegory was a metaphor to suggest that as long as bottled-up hatred based on the past guides how the adults brainwash the children, there will be only dim prospects for peace. Indeed it will be a numerical solution. Who the heck has event the talent nowadays to formulate closed-form solutions. It’s alas a lost skill, what with the plethora of numerical techniques and the ever increasingly powerful computing engines.
I guess what I’m saying is that pragmatism is the key to a solution here. As much as they are maligned, Abbas and Fayyad do seem to have the right attitude and approach. So do the authors of the Beirut proposal for peace. The problem is that extremists – Hamas on one side and religious fanatics on the Israeli side – seem to be so far successful in foiling progress.
Regrettably, as long as a stronghold is maintained over the brains of the youth by those two entities, peace will continue to be difficult. On the other hand, the long-term demographic shift, due to the imbalance in growth rate for Israelis and Arabs, coupled with what one hopes will be a more educated and illuminated youth (both sides) from the increasingly connected world, these factors do point towards a higher chance for peace in years to come.
Amen
December 23, 2010 at 10:31 am
Oh, and it’s still free. No payments in camels needed, nor shall it be accepted. Altruism reigns king with HP.
December 23, 2010 at 11:07 am
Today’s “What if this happened in Israel” NewZ
Iran hangs 11 “militants”…
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12039745
December 23, 2010 at 2:34 pm
Akbar Palace,
Israel does not hang them; they just blow their homes on top of them, and their families, and then called it self defense. Does that sound familiar?
December 23, 2010 at 2:48 pm
Another Fatwa from a rabbi;
Dialogue, and intellectual discussions are FEARED AND FORBIDDEN,by the Rabbi.
Rabbi Aviner: Don’t read talkbacks
One of Religious Zionism’s leaders says responding to articles on websites may lead to religious and moral transgressions. ‘Talkbacks can bring many blessings, but for the most part we see that they have many negative sides which means it isn’t worth it in the long run’
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3986921,00.html
December 23, 2010 at 4:06 pm
For the Record:
Lousy google translation of Lt Col. Rick Burgess, retiring US military attache @ the US Embassy in TA in a farewell interview with the IDF magazine BaMachaneh:
“$ 500 million to Lebanon
While Iran, Israel and the United States combine hands, another Middle Eastern neighbor causes them trouble in relationships. As the last of telenovelas, *the White House now juggling between two lovers: Israel, the woman known, Lebanon, the new baby. According to foreign publications, the first eight months of 2010 State of the United States flow Cedar $ 400 million purchase of weapons used by the army. She was a huge sum in order to strengthen the legitimate government in Lebanon, led by Hariri’s son, thus indirectly weaken the grip of Hezbollah in the region. After the incident, was shot dead at the border where Lt. Col. (res.) Dov mountain late aid was suspended, but resumed last month with the transfer of an additional $ 100 million.
Tightening the relationship between Lebanon and Israel to the United States raises many questions. Northern Command said that a long time goes beneath the surface cooperation between the Lebanese army and Hezbollah, suggest that Western money will be used for attacks against Israel. Burgess, it turns out, fearing exactly the same script, and maintains diplomatic language on the subject. “We move into Lebanon of arms can also reach the non-hands – right,” he admits. “Small amounts does come, we have a good idea about what comes into the hands of Hezbollah. But I would say the most important weapons do not come. It worries us, but not at the level that would cause us to stop economic aid to change our policy. Cessation of aid would cause more damage from some Small items that fall into the hands of non – correct. ”
At one point, the colonel quickly qualified his remarks, rude and takes a step back. “You have to remember that the means of control, control mechanisms, to prevent weapons transferred to the hands of non – correct,” he says. “That’s kind of cases which have to look at the bigger picture. Immediately after the shooting on the northern border, the U.S. government stopped financial assistance to the Lebanese army for several months. During those months, there were countries like Iran offered our assistance to Lebanon, and that’s dangerous. If We will not be good relations with Lebanon, someone else will – we do not want countries like Iran and Syria, which Israel’s enemies, will help her. ties with Syria and Iran really worries us, and we know him well. That does not mean we stop the aid ” .
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=iw&u=http://dover.idf.il/IDF/News_Channels/bamahana/2010/2201/12.htm&ei=VpcTTc_JOY3ksQOs8ImzAg&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBUQ7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://dover.idf.il/IDF/News_Channels/bamahana/2010/2201/12.htm%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dsafari%26sa%3DG%26rls%3Den%26prmd%3Divns
*Note that Burgess is fond of using analogies that liken relationships between countries to intimate human interactions. He also compares the US/Israel situation to a solid marriage that includes differences between husband and wife.
December 23, 2010 at 7:13 pm
Prophet,
Yes, Israel defends herself against enemies that launch missiles at her. However, the 11 Iranians hanged were Iranian citizens, and apparently, they had 1 full week of due process before they were hung. Hear that pin drop?
December 23, 2010 at 8:41 pm
How about the mayor of Nazareth Illit not allowing Christmas trees in the town square, calling them “provocative”.
Talk about tolerance. Jesus spent a good part of his life in Nazareth and its surrounding, and christians should be able to celebrate his birth there.
Besides, what is so provocative about Christmas trees and to whom? Maybe AP or AIG can enlighten us.
December 23, 2010 at 9:23 pm
AK,
First ,I oppose capital punishment anywhere.
It ‘s Very true that this people had a week of due process,But at least they did have a process.
But those who you think launch missiles against you, Don’t get any due process;Instead a whole neighborhood gets flattened on top of its residents. You call that a due process, don’t you?
My point is ; clean your finger before you spot other people’s glass.
December 23, 2010 at 10:07 pm
Prophet 193,
Why do you keep contradicting yourself?
We already established thanks to Sonya that two wrongs do not make right.
You should come forward courageously and spell it out clearly: Both Iran and Israel are villains and should both be equally condemned. So, are you going to post a comment condemning Iran? We already know you condemn Israel. But that is only half the picture.
December 23, 2010 at 11:00 pm
AP 191
In my opinion, you won’t find many folks who would argue with you that Iran, KSA and a bunch of arab countries have dismal human rights record and mistreat their minorities. far from it.
On the other hand, Israel practices the same things or even surpass them in many ways under the guise of security/war and illigal land grab. Yet portays itself as a lamb surrounded by wolfs.
Israel needs to come clean and reach an honorable peace with its “Immediate” neighbors. An acceptable formula is there, and Israel knows it. It’s just the land grab and its current macho military capability is getting in the way of reason, and to do what is right.
From a historical perspective, these “Immediate” neighbors of all creeds have been a tolerant bunch vis a vis religion and israel should capitalize on this, instead of radicalizing this audiance.
Once a real peace is reached between these parties, the conflict with the outlaying players, such as Iran would be a non issue.
The real question is whether Israel has a genuine desire to reach a respectful peace?
At this point, I don’t see it. Which is a shame.
December 23, 2010 at 11:54 pm
anonymous,#194
I stated above that I was against capital punishment period, and I condemn any country that executes people. That includes Iran.
That being said, you can’t compare oranges and apples. Iran captured 11 people who, supposedly were behind terrorist acts that killed tens of people. They were captured and tried. I condemn Iran for excuting those suspects. I think Iran should put them in jail if they were convicted by solid evidence.
Israel on the other hand, is an occupying country that punishes people regardless of what they do. Their occupation and oppression of Palestinians are terrorist acts by themselves.
I do condemn any Palestinian who carries any act of violence against civilian Israelis. Those who do should be tried as terrorists, provided that Israel refrains from targeting civilians as a mean of revenge, or due process.
I condemn Israel for the collective punishment against entire Palestinians populations after any act of violence by Palestinian groups or individuals. I think Palestinians who are captured by Israel for opposing and resisting by military means, should be treated as war prisoners, instead of terrorists. They are at war after all.
December 24, 2010 at 12:45 am
OK now back to wikileaks.
It is well known Assange is now out on bail. And incidentally al-Akhbar is back on line. Back to business as normal.
But Apple iPhone does not support wikileaks anymore.
Google Android however has taken the opposite approach and is still in league with wikileaks.
December 24, 2010 at 3:48 am
Any thought on achieving both stability and justice, as the PM would like us to believe?
December 24, 2010 at 8:55 am
Time to stop politics for a moment.
MERRY CHRISTMAS & HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL!!!
December 24, 2010 at 11:57 am
Season’s Greetings to Everyone…
Will be back to blogging next week… maybe.
December 24, 2010 at 10:38 pm
Merry Christmas to all of you , Let us hope that next year is full of peace for all ,
December 24, 2010 at 11:56 pm
I second that Norman.
Merry Christmas and a happy new year to all.
May peacefull and prosperous days are ahead for the Levant.
God Bless.
December 25, 2010 at 12:30 pm
Happy Holidays for all.
December 25, 2010 at 3:49 pm
Merry Christmas and a happy new year to all.
182 Prophet: Rabi Aviner is a Rabi for his students and community, he is not a leader and does not lead any body other than them and even that is conditional.
192 Ras Beirut: The Mayor of Nazaret is a leftish Muslim and he decreed againt the Christmas tree to spite the Christians.
December 25, 2010 at 5:14 pm
Rani,
Thanks for the info in 203. Whoever this mayor is, I think he’s a scrooge.
Maybe Santa won’t drop him any presents.
December 26, 2010 at 2:04 am
Rani,
Your version of the story is not what was reported!
It is the mayor Shimon Gapso of a Jewish suburb of Nazareth, Nazareth Illit or Upper Nazareth, which has an Arab and Christian minority, who refused to allow Christmas trees to be placed in his town squares, calling them provocative.
Source
December 26, 2010 at 9:20 am
Thanks Badr,
If Jews are treated in the West the way Christians and Muslims Israelis are treated in Israel , Israel as we know it will be no more ,and Israel will become a real Democracy with equal rights to all ,
December 26, 2010 at 11:25 am
Norman 206,
Me thinks thou art dreaming.
December 26, 2010 at 12:16 pm
Badr 205 There are no “town squares” in Upper Nazaret, street corners or few parks may be. As you said it has a small minority of Hebrew speaking Christians, and very few Arabic speaking Christians and I have seen there trees in houses. There are more, much more Christians in Tel-Aviv and Jaffa and there are no Xmas trees in the streets there. Xmas is not a holiday for the Jews, and some fanatical SOBs both Jews and Muslims object to such trees, even in Jaffa, sorry but that is life. If one want to make an issue out of that I will ask about Gaza, KSA, Karachi, etc. but why look for troubles on Xmas ? . If one will look farther into that event in Upper Nazaret NOT NAZARET the very shocking story will become less and less of a sensation and more and more of an enflated spin. As I see it the whole thing was an intended racial spin, because people tend to think that it was Jews against Christians in the holy city of Nazaret.
As for Norman 206 the only country in the ME in which the numbers of Christians and the number of active Christian churches is growing is Israel. To talk like you, if Muslims in the Christian world will be treated like Christians in K of Saudia Arabia, What then? Also, please notice, if Jews will be even slightly persecuted in any place in the world they will migrate to Israel, we have seen it historically with the Arab countries and lately with England, France and Holland, not to mention Russia. I dont think the Palestinians will join you in that death wish for them.
The interesting thing, for me, is that this discussion started with 11 hungings in Iran and like most ME political discussions it ended with Israel. As I have said before in this blog, so much money and troubles could have been saved by blaming, right away, Israel and the Jews for the murder of Hariry, because any how, eventually that is what will happen.
December 26, 2010 at 3:57 pm
“The interesting thing, for me, is that this discussion started with 11 hungings in Iran and like most ME political discussions it ended with Israel. As I have said before in this blog,”
Rani,
This discussion was started by another ‘Jew’ ridiculously arguing about who killed Jesus. You now just proved that nothing changed over the last two thousand years. First blame the Romans and now blame the Muslims.
You cannot win legitimacy for your argument before you show some courage just like Prophet did vis-a-vis Iran and declare Israel a rogue state. Prophet did recognize the validity of the argument that two wrongs do not make right or for that matter multiple wrongs do not make right. Do you have the capacity to recognize that?
And just for your information, most of those countries you mention do not have any citizens who are Christians. I also never heard of Hebrew-speaking Christians. What is that supposed to mean?
December 26, 2010 at 4:52 pm
“The interesting thing, for me, is that this discussion started with 11 hungings in Iran and like most ME political discussions it ended with Israel.”
The “discussion” started with the usual crap floated by one of YOUR tribe in the endless attempts by the less gifted among you to screech about rotten apples on the other “side” in order to practice this idiotic method of “defense” of Israel/Jews/Zionism; take your pick.
If you have a problem with the utterly predictable tit-for-tat that results from employing this “tactic”, I suggest you directly address the source of the silliness who started it all.
How many Russian Jews are emigrating to Israel versus the numbers of non-Jewish Russians that are being recruited solely to become fake “converted” mercenary *Jews* in order to backfill the ranks of the IDF?
(Hopefully, American taxpayers aren’t paying for that, too.)
How many Christian churches are being built by the nutjob Evangelical Xtian “Zionists” and that other offshoot known as “Jews for Jesus”? Even though their life’s Mission to Convert is against the law in Israel, it appears that there isn’t much official effort made to enforce said laws.
You can have them, Rani. America has plenty of fundamentalist wacko “Christian” cultists to spare.
Too bad that all of the above (& more) are contributing to the inexorable internal rot that’s spreading like kudzu through out Israeli society. I do hope that the courageous Israelis who are recognizing the dangers to the democratic State will prevail in their efforts to arrest the threatened implosion.
December 26, 2010 at 5:35 pm
Tribes can co-exist with one another.
Religions can’t.
December 26, 2010 at 9:48 pm
My own little Hiatus. Canuck weather was getting too cold. So what better place to escape than good old Imarati Sunshine?
Lubnan. Just the word gets people going on about Xians and Muslims. Lubnan. Oooh.
. It is a remarkable social experiment.
So good ‘ol Gabs hops into local taxi. Bangladeshi driver.
“Marhaba arbab, where?”
Me: Carrefour (speaking English)
“Where you from?”
Me: Lubnan, you, where from?
“Bangladesh Sir. Lubnan. Christians and Muslims in Lubnan”.
Me: Yes.
“More Christians or Muslims?”
Me: More Muslim.
“You.. You Christian or Muslim”.
Me: Me Mulhid. You know Mulhid (dumbstruck look in driver’s face). Kaffir. You know Kaffir? (shocked look in driver’s face).
“Kafir? Kafir and Christian similar, no?”
Me: No No. Masee7i they believe in God. Kaffir no believe in God. Different. You what are you?
“Me I am Muslim”.
Arrive at destination. Meter: 21 Dhms ($7).
I give him 50 Dhms. Dumbfounded look on his face.
Me: “Merry Xmas!”
December 26, 2010 at 10:01 pm
Rani:
The argument is always a Local one. People will always be concerned with their own lot. Of course it could be “worse” elsewhere.
And that should come as no surprise. See “debate” above. The argument doesn’t work with Jews either (Amsterdam, Ukraine).
I think most reasonable people know that for closure to happen in Lebanon, the Hariri case must be solved. Some random finger pointing is not going to cut it. No need for “Israel” to throw itself as some sort of sacrificial lamb- you know- just to save everyone time and money.
December 26, 2010 at 11:11 pm
Norman’s Democracy Crusade;)
If Jews are treated in the West the way Christians and Muslims Israelis are treated in Israel , Israel as we know it will be no more ,and Israel will become a real Democracy with equal rights to all ,
This is the typical “reasoning” of an Arab who is too obsessed with Israel and Jews to speak objectively about the mess Arabs live in on a daily basis.
Which is why Israeli-Arab prefer to stay Israeli Citizens than become subjects of Hamas or the PA.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/israel-reports-jump-in-jerusalem-arabs-seeking-israeli-citizenship-1.232665
In a survey from July 2000 conducted by Kul Al-Arab among 1,000 residents of Um Al-Fahm, 83 percent of respondents opposed the idea of transferring their city to Palestinian jurisdiction, while 11 percent supported the proposal and 6 percent did not express their position.[9]
Of those opposed to the idea, 54% said that they were against becoming part of a Palestinian state because they wanted to continue living under a democratic regime and enjoying a good standard of living. Of these opponents, 18% said that they were satisfied with their present situation, that they were born in Israel and that they were not interested in moving to any other state. Another 14% of this same group said that they were not prepared to make sacrifices for the sake of the creation of a Palestinian state. Another 11 percent cited no reason for their opposition.[9]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lieberman_Plan
December 26, 2010 at 11:13 pm
Gaby,
Gaby,
Imarat this time of the year? And a Bangladeshi driver? And worse taking hiatus from QN? That’s double treason – first to the great north and also the site.
Next time you take a cab, I am sure you’ll have to call a tow camel in the middle of your trip – punishment for you extravagance and treason.
Anyway that wouldn’t be as bad as having to confront religious police for your bold indiscretion and admitting you’re Xian sorry kaffir.
But to change the subject from killing and blame since after all it is Xmass, I have found this very memorable clip from the golden era of Arab art now that you’re back to you roots Gab. I am sure you would like it and play it more than once – a rare sopranic voice and most beautiful poem all in Arabic. And do not forget to drink Arabic Coffee (AHWA) as often as it gets offered to you.
A warning to the Jewish commentators: the word AHWA in Arabic has no relation whatsoever to the Jewish conception of YAHWA. In fact they are the complete opposite. So please avoid any confusion and seek professional translators if you like to comment on the clip. An ordinary translator cannot do the job for you in this particular case.
December 27, 2010 at 1:34 pm
I noticed that some of the people here have a special interest in the Mayor of Upper Nazarath in Israel. He is the fellow who did not allow Xmas trees in public. So here are the very very latest news about him:
“The Magistrates Court in Rishon Letzion ordered on Monday that Natzrat Ilit (Upper Nazareth) Mayor Shimon Gapso, the head of his office and an aide be held in custody until Thursday on suspicion of corruption. Gapso was arrested Monday on suspicion of taking a bribe following an undercover operation of the National Fraud Investigating Unit.
Gapso is suspected of receiving hundreds of thousands of shekels in bribes from a businessman immediately before and after local elections, among other times. The mayor and the other two suspects face charges of taking a bribe, brokering a bribe, fraud and breach of trust, money laundering and conspiracy to commit a crime.”
As they say G-d has his own ways of settling accounts. It is also possible that a local Christian policeman or another Christian citizen helped G-d in that little business, who knows? Any how,here is a Xmas tale for you, stright from the Holyland, to ponder about.
December 27, 2010 at 4:27 pm
Truth of the matter Rani is, as someone remarked the American tax payer is getting sick and tired from financing the unholy land of this golden cow, and care least about who the mayor of this town or that district is.
Truth again, the vast majority of the readers of or contributors to this blog are atheists and would care least about a G-D concept whose round about ways are so incomprehensible except to the gullible. Xmas to them is an occasion to party and have fun and not some ‘mysterious’ lessons to ponder upon. There are some readers who may be Christians but they still do not recognize a G-D concept showering Xmass gifts on them as a lesson to ponder upon. May be you should try something like Jesus. There are some Muslim readers. But as we have been told based on the story of the Bangladeshi driver you are a kafir (unbeliever) to them and the G-D trick will not work on them either.
If you’re till seeking further embezzlement from the American public, you should try a different approach. Hopefully by Easter you would come up with a workable scheme.
But honestly speaking, you need to declare loudly this so-called State of Israel is a full fledged rogue state if you care to be taken seriously.
December 27, 2010 at 6:32 pm
Here’s a lesson in “divine” logic: From Tehran Times:
Iranian Foreign Ministry spokesman Ramin Mehmanparast says the UN Special Tribunal for Lebanon is not legitimate because its actions are politically motivated.
A tribunal which is used as a political tool is not legitimate, Mehmanparast told the Mehr News Agency on Monday.
The United States’ support for the tribunal, which is investigating the 2005 assassination of former Lebanese prime minister Rafik Hariri, provides more proof that it has become politicized, he stated.
Now how can you disagree with Mr. Mehman…;
Anyone looking for justice is trying to create strife between Muslims.
Kudos
December 28, 2010 at 3:39 am
Anon:
As it happens, I did venture into the desert and check out a few camels. Just in case. You never know when you need the Desert Taxi
. And who knows, the generous tip may have ended up saving my skin 
.
December 28, 2010 at 3:58 am
anonymous you said to Rani: “…this so-called State of Israel is a full fledged rogue state…”
Where did this come from?
Rani is a very sincere and affectionate contributor here. He has often expressed nostalgia about the good old days of Lebanon. On the other hand, Israel is a reality with real people, the majority of whom have nothing to do with any sins of the past. Isn’t it just crazy to continue the campaign towards wanting to eliminate a country and a people when the last half-century has proven this to be a futile, self-defeating, endeavor?
How are we to tolerate Iran and its fanaticism and go after Israel – never mind that it is madness to do so – a country which, if you get to know it, is full of sincere and competent folks who, like every decent human being, want a good life for themselves and their families.
There is a lot to criticize in Israel – as there is (at a different scale, orders of magnitude greater) in every country of the reason. But to continue to stubbornly pursue the old “rejection front” (jabhat-al-Raf’d) with its blind obsession and bumbling incompetence is nothing short of madness.
Yeah, I know, I’ll be tagged a zionist and all that, but hey, what else is new? We centrists get it from both sides. The other side will start lecturing us on how we fail to convince the extremists on our side and cower away, etc. None of this will change in the New Year.
And Happy New Year by the way.
December 28, 2010 at 4:00 am
~region instead of reason in line 2 of the 4th paragraph above
December 28, 2010 at 9:24 am
Gaby,
Enjoy your desert safari and happy new year.
HP,
Where in my comments did you find I’m using the ‘jabhat arrafd’ logic? I’m surprised.
You could still view Israel as a rogue state and still not belong to that ridiculous camp.
I equate Israel to Iran in every respect and I made that clear in more than one comment.
In fact, I was going to respond to danny’s comment above about the STL and Iranian FM with a proposition that the Lebanese must first reject the logic of the duality (or perhaps the trilogy) of this so-called resistance/army/people as a precondition for anything positive to come out of this tribunal. But I hate to tie that subject to Israel as you have forced me to do. The rafdist camp as we all know would insist on this logic and in fact is central to its strategy in opposing the STL.
As for Rani, I have nothing personal against him. I just expressed an opinion about what he said and I stand by it.
Happy new year to you as well and to all.
December 28, 2010 at 2:07 pm
Where did my holiday greeting comment go?
December 28, 2010 at 6:57 pm
anonymous,
well, ok, but isn’t it implied, when one characterizes Israel as a “full fledged rogue state” that a civilized and obvious solution is that it cease to exist in its current form. If one accepts that implication then there is no peace to be made. What is obvious to me is that such characterization of Israel immediately plays into the hand of the Israeli hardliner who will then (perhaps correctly) claim that its neighbors have no interest in peace and the only way for them to survive is to perpetuate the segregationist and oppressive policies. After that, you’ll get tit-for-tat and it will be neverending. In that context I see the “rogue” language as non-diplomatic, to say the least, and rejectionist through its implications.
I’m sure anyone in Israel will reject the comparison with/to Iran, as will Iranians reject that same comparison of their country to Israel. My view on this is that the equivalency is at the level of the extremists and rejectionists in each of the camps. At the same time, from a practical, empirical, pragmatic (notice the use of pseudo-synonyms as many Arabic orators like to practice
) approach, anyone who has strived to have a stable and successful life would much prefer to do so under an Israeli government than under any Arab government and certainly not under an Iranian government. This is simply a fact. That does not change history, or the moral rights of Palestinians, or any of the principled paradigms. It does carry implications as fas as the actual state of the societies involved and the prospects for success (or victory) for each.
December 28, 2010 at 8:44 pm
HP,
You have some valid points in 225. And I am not referring just to your use of the pseudo-synonyms style of oration.
Your conclusion that the state needs to cease to exist in ITS CURRENT FORM is very accurate. It may well be the only positive workable outcome short of an eventual failed entity or entities. And that too may well turn into a ‘workable’ solution as it (they) joins the swelling club of failed states in the region. What I mean here is that when it transforms into the failed category out of its currently rogue state it will appear less threatening to its neighbours and it may receive defacto recognition based on the common quality of failure, i.e. being equal in misery so welcome to the club. The US may help here if it accelerates its dissociation and ceases its support. It is not a very attractive outcome, but if all else fails….. so what? Besides, I fail to see the strategic value of such a state to the US especially with the world changing as we see. The US has to make up its mind. It cannot deliver on peace. Should it continue to bear the cost?
Secondly, I do not think any of us here is a trained diplomat to be able to sift through language and select the proper term that will not cause displeasure across the board. Some, however, may be skilled more than others. I find it hard to swallow when someone puts forward two comments in a row that suffer from inconsistencies, or suspiciously he or she may be attempting to spin something invalid into an argument. So you could read my responses to those comments based on those motivations. After all when somebody leaves himself exposed through his own words, he should be ready for an onslaught. I get my own share sometimes.
I wouldn’t weigh a tit-for-tat outcome against the use of the term rogue in describing Israel as a deciding factor. We have to call things as they are. If those majority Israelis as you mentioned disagree with the description that is their opinion. Also, if somebody wants to base his or her judgement on imagined implications, then that too would be his or her prerogative. I can only explain my self as clearly as possible and the rest is not up to me.
What are the alternatives to the above dilemma? The most pessimistic one is peace is not achievable. That may well be. Then as you said the segregationists would harden their stance. But they have to do that at their own risk and perhaps detriment. We do not have crystal balls. But we have histories that we can look at and in light of which we can make some predictions. One of these predictions is as I said above: a conversion into a failed state. Another prediction is that a social transformation may happen within and avoid the fall into that scenario by resorting to reason and common sense. So in a sense being ‘undiplomatic’ may have some positive merits on the outcome. Keep in mind that neither diplomats nor military experts made any headway over the last 65 years.
With these segrationists among the Israelis, I would not even undertake a debate except if they begin with the admission that their State in its current form is a full fledged rogue state. It has been proven so time and again since its inception. Therefore any debate not based on the above is futile and a waste of time. They have made their minds and, in my opinion, are no different than any other extremist group. In this case time is the only solution.
December 28, 2010 at 8:49 pm
(Continued)
Part of my response to HP was truncated…
Here it is.
As for Arabs, particularly the Lebanese, I can say for almost certain that 99% of them, despite the obvious failure of their States, never look at Israel as a model to be yearned for. That was part, but not all of the reasons I wrote those comments.
December 28, 2010 at 10:11 pm
A solution is coming to Lebanon , May Be ,
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=2&article_id=123031#axzz19ShaOmnC
December 29, 2010 at 6:37 am
But it seems that such a “solution,” as I suggested before, entails significant concessions on one side and only one insignificant concession on the other. Raad confirmed that HA are prepared to compromise on the “false witnesses” in order to reach a settlement. Their chips – or should I say chip – look suspiciously home-made. They drummed-up this issue and are now using it to bargain with. Meanwhile, Hariri needs to make real concessions, not least of which may be bargaining away his father’s death.
December 29, 2010 at 10:18 am
Most normal people I know will response to ultimatums the way I do. It is strange that a person who is hiding behind a fictious persona “anon.” will declare that he would not even undertake a debate with me unless I will do this or that. So what? should I cry? beg? After all, here the old american say goes: “who is he to demand such thing from me”?
As for G-d. I personally do not care how you spell deities names. Some people do. But in my youth you were told to care about other pepole. Some people care about the cross. Some people care about cartoons depicting prophets. Some people care about G-d. I dont see any reason in the world why I, who dont care, should not respect their sensativities. Dropping just one letter is a very small price to pay for not causing pain to others.
December 29, 2010 at 12:23 pm
Norman,
Don’t hold your breath. It is the same old crap recycled… Have a happy New Year!
December 29, 2010 at 6:25 pm
No country in the whole world will standby as envoys from other countries are determining its policy without its input. Unfortunately Lebanon is such a country/pretend state and the role odf standing by as others decide what is good for it is not new. The Arab league decided whether Palestinians are to carry arms, Saudi Arabia formu;lated the terms to stop the civil war, Qatar paid both sides 100′s of millions of dollars to form a “national unity” cabinet and Syria/Saudi Arabia are negotiating the terms for a settlement to the STL indictment.
The Lebanese PM is more interested in getting the blessings of the only absolute monarch in the world than he is in the welfare of his citizens, Hezbollah does not hide the source of its funding, illegal weapons suppliers and allegiance to Qom while Beri, Frangieh and Jumblatt are at the beck and call of Damascus. The other minor second tier politicians are clueless.
Lebanon is not a state and does not act as one. This does not mean that we should put an end to the Lebanese experiment, on the contrary it only means that if the Lebanese have any shred of integrity they have no choice but to kick all of the current political class out of office, every single one of them starting with the so called unconstitutionally elected president.
I see no difference between president Sulaiman who accepts to be elected by shreding the constitution and President Nen Ali of Tunis who has ammended the constitution three or four times already, President Mubarak who has been in office for over 30 years by orchestrating sham elections or Assad of Syria whose absolute rule will be complete once he changes the name of the county to Assadstan.
When will we ever show outrage with the whole rotten crop of pols. Maybe, just maybe, there is some trutyh to the saying that people get the government that they deserve.
December 29, 2010 at 6:39 pm
Norman,
Here’s your answer!
http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/NewsDesk.nsf/getstory?openform&1EC2F37FC17ECA7BC2257808006BC4C3
Ciao
December 29, 2010 at 7:50 pm
GK,
You paint a very bleak picture. I have no answer to your question about “showing outrage”; that seems to be reserved for Israel. But if Lebanon ever wants recognition as a sovereign state, I am sure Israel will agree;)
December 29, 2010 at 7:56 pm
What differentiates North Korea, Iran and Syria from South Korea, Saudi Arabia or Lebanon.
December 29, 2010 at 8:50 pm
Ya habibi Ya Ghassan,
Lebanon is a corrupt state; with a corrupt leadership .This same leadership is corrupting, and scaring the entire society, so that it stays loyal. I can make a bet that the entire leadership would be elected again if election is to be held next week.
Unfortunately, loyalty to the leader of the clan is more important than the loyalty to the nation. The clan leader is offering the protection and the bribes. They use sectarian and political scare tactic to keep the followers in line.
Don’t expect any outrage. Those clan leaders have it under control.
However, there is a thin minority which is very outraged, yet they are frustrated to the point of giving up and leaving the country.
Though unrelated to your comment, yet it shows how rotten and corrupt this state has become. Police officers who are not corrupt yet, and who try to enforce the law, are being threatened, and their institution can not protect them.
News Story from Alakhbar.
أثناء قيام دورية من فصيلة بئر حسن بقمع مخالفة بناء لشخص من آل د.، تعرّض عناصرها لاعتداء من الأشخاص المخالفين فأُصيب بعضهم بجروح ونُقل آمر فصيلة بئر حسن الملازم أول علي الضيقة إلى المستشفى إثر إصابته بحجر في رأسه، ما أدى إلى فقدانه الوعي. لم تنته المسألة عند هذا الحدّ، بل استعان صاحب المخالفة بعائلتين معروفتين لتصفية حسابه مع الضابط المذكور.
بدأت عملية ترهيب منظّمة فصار مجهولون يتّصلون على رقم هاتفه ورقم المركز ويتوعّدونه بالقتل إن بقي في مركز فصيلة بئر حسن. ولم يقف المهدّدون عند حدّ الاتصالات، بل ألقى بعضهم زجاجة مولوتوف حارقة أمام مبنى الفصيلة منذ أيّام، ما أدى إلى اشتعالها أمام المبنى من دون أن تؤدي إلى وقوع إصابات أو تُحدث أي أضرار مادية. ورغم التهديدات التي لم تتوقف حتى لحظة كتابة هذه السطور وفق المعلومات الأمنية، لا يزال الملازم أول علي الضيقة في مركزه آمراً لفصيلة بئر حسن، لكن «الأخبار» علمت أن الضابط المذكور يلازم منزله منذ تاريخ الحادثة ولا يبارحه. اتّصلت «الأخبار» بالضابط الضيقة لكنه رفض التعليق على القضية طالباً الرجوع إلى شعبة العلاقات العامة في قوى الأمن الداخلي للحصول على أية معلومات متعلّقة بالموضوع
بديهيٌّ أن يكون الضابط قلقاً على حياته، فالخطر ضريبة المهنة التي يدفعها معظم الضباط، لكن السؤال البديهي أيضاً، والذي قد يتبادر إلى الذهن، يتمحور حول دور مديرية قوى الأمن الداخلي. فمديرية غير قادرة على أن تحمي ضبّاطها كيف تُطبّق القانون؟ وفي هذا السياق، يتحدّث مسؤول أمني رفيع في قوى الأمن الداخلي لـ«الأخبار» فيشير إلى حصول حالات مشابهة مع عدد من الضبّاط، لكنه يلفت إلى أنّ ذلك جزء من عمل الضبّاط الذين يسقط منهم الجرحى والشهداء. وإذ يرى المسؤول المذكور أنّ المديرية تقوم بدورها لجهة توفير الحماية لهؤلاء، يلفت إلى أن لا ضمانة مئة في المئة.
With that, I wish you and everyone else a happy and healthy New Year.
December 29, 2010 at 10:05 pm
Prophet,
I think that we are on the same page but what drives me to pull what is left of my hair are the stories about the PM traveling all over the world as if there is nothing for him to do at the Saraya . If he does not think that the current deadlock is serious enough to try and govern then what would it take to get him to pretend to care, to feel our pain.
I know that a revolution i.e. a radical change is not very likely but hell it must happen sometime and sweep all throughout the Arab world.
BTW, I am glad that you high lighted the story about the policemen who are trying against all odds to do their jobs. In some countries corruption sneaks into some parts of the system and so it can , with determined effort be weeded out. Unfortunately in Lebanon corruption is the system. The only solution is a radical surgery to excise the cancerous growth.
Peace, Justice and No Nukes:-)
December 29, 2010 at 10:24 pm
Israeli newspaper story quoted in Naharnet reports that Saudi-Syrian pressure on Hariri to reject STL is increasing.
The funny part is the story portrays the pressure in the form of a threat by HA against Hariri. According to the story the deal includes a promise from HA not to harm Hariri, and also a promise to allow him to build his own security apparatus, as well as cooperation to eradicate weapons carried by Palestinians outside refugee camps. Looks like again HA does not offer anything in return (if we were to believe an Israeli story)
It is not clear where Hariri stands even though many reports indicates he is still for STL. Some stories say Hariri believes and quoted him as saying the ball is in the opposite camp as of recently.
The question still remains. What will STL achieve even if it carries out its mission from indictment all the way to prosecution? If HA eventually gives in to a wash out scenario as was suggested by Hariri to HNA few month ago, that deal involves restricting responsibility to ‘undisciplined’ HA members which was rejected by HNA. would that serve justice, even assuming the undisciplined members get punished?
Perhaps one should argue that the punishment should be in the form of depriving the party behind the crime from making any political gains as a result of the crime and not simply looking at the persons directly involved in carrying out the operation. After all if a party is arguing against a court that it considers politicised, should it not expect to be asked about the proceeds of the crime if that party turns out to be guilty. The point here which has become clear post 2005 is that HA has sought to fill out the void created by the removal of Hariri Sr. and other assassinated figures by consolidating its grip on what remains of Lebanonistan.
Finally, Lebanon is a founder of the UN and a participant in the drafting of its charter (See Charles Malek for more info). The UN was established before the creation of the rogue state of Israel. Therefore, Israel would be the least qualified to offer a ‘not-required’ or ‘sought after’ recognition of Lebanese sovereignty. In other words, try a differnt insult.
December 30, 2010 at 9:12 am
someone please tell me this is a joke.
naharnet:
2:35pm Minister Butros Harb proposed a draft law that prevents the sale of property between Christians and Muslims for 15 years.
December 30, 2010 at 9:24 am
tamer k
And this from the guy who wants to be a President? Whenever we think that these politicians must have hit bottom they manage to find a way to dig deeper. And we manage to cheer them on. Go figure.
December 30, 2010 at 10:05 am
Jumblatt trumps them all … He wants the government to file a complaint with the UN security council he disses
http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/NewsDesk.nsf/getstory?openform&615D5321DFDC4F08C225780900264B29
December 30, 2010 at 11:03 am
Butros Harb suposedly the liberal secular western leaning democracy loving elite intellectual fool is proposing such laws what is next? have they no shame? what a piece of @#$% country Lebanon has become
December 30, 2010 at 11:23 am
Please tell me today is 1st of April…
December 30, 2010 at 11:30 am
Bigotry and racism are everywhere:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20101229/wl_mideast_afp/israelarabsdiscriminationreligion
December 30, 2010 at 11:32 am
Harb’s proposal is surprising. However, he claims that his motivation is specifically to prevent segregation and the creation of islands of monochromatically uniform religion. If indeed there is a systematic, foreign-driven and foreign-financed effort to acquire real-estate to create uniformly religious areas, then this has to be fought. Not sure Harb’s proposal is the way to do it, but it’s certainly a very bad omen (not that Lebanon needs any more of those).
December 30, 2010 at 12:23 pm
These clowns , parading as politicians, just don’t get it do they? Just in case you haven’t seen the latest from Lebanon:
جلسة مجلس الوزراء
الحق على الطليان و الفرنسيين انو الجلسة ما فيها تصير هلق و الحل عند القطريين تا يخلوها تنعقد… كيف؟
بدو يكون اول بند شهود الزور
بدنا ننطر المبادرة السعودية – السورية تا تستوي مزبوط
بدنا نقرر اذا منمشي بالحل اللي اقترحو الرئيس بري
نطرنا حكومة العراق و الحمد لله صارت, فهيدا الشرط خلصنا منو
بدنا نشوف هالجلسة وين بدا تصير, ببعبدا او القصر الحكومي؟ اكيد لأ…
جنازة حامية و الميت كلب… ما لحتا تصير هالجلسة بدك وزراء و بدك نصاب… وين ممكن يتأمن النصاب اذا كل الشروط اللي حكيناهن تأمنو؟
فتشنا منيح, طلع اعلى احتمالات تأمين النصاب مش ب”بيروت” ولا ب”بعبدا” طلع ب”لندن”
فهيدي مناشدة لإخواننا القطريين لنعمل هالجلسة ب”هارودز في لندن” بشي طابق, لأنو الفرنسيين و الطليان مفرقين النصاب على شارع سلون شي ب”برادا”, شي ب”غوتشي”, شي ب”لويس فيتون”, و شي ب”هيرمس”
شو بدكن بالحكي, ما بيحلوها الا القطريين, و ما بتنحل إلا ب”هارودز
This would have been hilarious had it not been true. These pols have lost every shred of respect . They have become the butt of every joke. What have we done in our previous life to deserve this.
Have we hit bottom yet, don’t bet on it.
December 30, 2010 at 12:27 pm
HP in 245 figured it out accurately with regards to Harb’s motivations. This whole thing goes back to the same logic of realpolitik which was spoken about recently. Yes, there is a foreign funded plan to create monochromatic regions within Lebanonistan.
Look guys if you want to start your arguments starting from a high ideal that is resident only in your minds, then you will achieve nothing but disappointments and eventual resignations and defeats. You must begin from reality as your frame of reference. If you can justify Murr’s plan of safeguarding Lebanonistan’s interests based on this logic (which I believe I did), then you can also justify Harb’s real estate plan similarly.
The key word here is Lebanonistan.
Another issue perhaps needs some attention. Obama bypassed Congress and appointed a US ambassador to Syria with an Executive order.
The US has long held the Saudis were giving in too much to Syria without getting anything in return, and that held the ambassador’s appointment in limbo for quite sometime. So why is Obama bypassing the Congress now?
December 30, 2010 at 1:21 pm
The proposed plan by Harb will go down as one of the most misguided efforts to deal with a perceived threat. The logic behind this proposal is eerily similar to that used by dictators who claim that they now best what is good for the citizens and that is why they take away their rights.
I am not going to dispute the possibility that there are foreign funded efforts to generate monochromatic areas in Lebanon but my response is so what is new? Every single activity in Lebanon is foreign funded including the printed press. A state ultimately belongs to its people. I have faith in the logic of individuals to be able to enter into a contract that benefits them and to refuse an offer that is against their interests. These same residency rules that are supposed to guard against te creation of religious ghettos can very easily promote sehregation. This law accepts the status quo as being worth preserving when the fact of the matter is that it is not. According to this law it would be next to impossible to have a Moslem household buy land in most parts of Mount Lebanon and it would be impossible for Christian households to decide to live say in Tyre or Sidon by purchasing a lot of land.
What needs to be done is to promote citizenship and deemphasize religious affiliation. The way out for many of our current problems is not laws that strengthen sectarianism but laws that promote secularism. A good start would be civil marriage combined with a scraping of political sectarianism.
December 30, 2010 at 1:37 pm
Why don’t we just divide Lebanon into the cantons we are and have been and get it over with.
Christians never trusted Muslims. Shia’s don’t trust Sunnis and vice versa. The Druze must be tired of prostituting themselves to this side or that. Why the foreign speaking Armenians are still in Lebanon when they have a nation to live under is a bit baffling.
As for the Palestinians, they naturally should be moved to the South to join Hizballah in pursuing their common “raison d’etre”.
December 30, 2010 at 1:48 pm
Beirut should be void of churches ringing their bells or mosques blaring whatever.
December 30, 2010 at 2:28 pm
@GK: “Maybe, just maybe, there is some trutyh to the saying that people get the government that they deserve.”
Pretty much my feeling from day 1. The Lebanese have shown time and again that they deserve exactly this idiotic politician class.
As to Harb’s idiotic proposal. Well, that illustrate exactly what I just said. Didn’t it?
Why do we keep following/re-electing/listening to/supporting these bozos, all the while clamoring about how shitty our lot in life is?
We’re getting EXACTLY what we deserve.
I like how someone in a comment above says “These pols have lost every shred of respect . They have become the butt of every joke. What have we done in our previous life to deserve this?”
Well, first of all, the statement seems to imply these guys were deserving of respect at some point in the past, to have lost it now. WRONG!
Secondly, the question “What have we done in a previous life to deserve this?”
In a previous life? How about THIS LIFE? What we have done is empower and support these bozos out of our own insecurities (sectarian and otherwise) and given them the carte blanche they continue to exercise on a daily basis through our ignorance and stupidity. So yes. We DO deserve this. We get exactly what we have coming to us.
December 30, 2010 at 2:37 pm
Thank God I don’t have children.
I could never explain this to them.
December 30, 2010 at 4:52 pm
There are many ‘status quo’ in the world that are not worth preserving. However, being the status quo has the greatest and most determining factor on the way realpolitiks is conducted.
You must bear in mind that two of the most important requirements to practice this ‘cold art’ by politicians are 1) lack of any human emotions, and 2) lack of any ethical standards.
Needless to say that you are surrounded by ‘entities’ that behave in no other way but as described above. Someone here already complained about the endless foreign intereference in Lebanon, Eventually any other set of politicians even and if after the current status quo transforms into something else will acquire the same qualities as you have right now. I find it illogical for someone to demand a change of a status quo that he or she knows quite well is outside the capacity of the parties intended. The term parties here includes both people and pols. It may well be that it is the ‘Italians’ fault as the ordinary ‘Joes’ in Lebanon have long discovered. In other words, the joke here is just intended as an admission of the obvious reality and is not a joke after all. Expressing raelities in the form of a joke is much easier to accept.
In the end this will lead to segregation and the acceptance of the Harb’s plan or some modified form of it.
December 30, 2010 at 5:10 pm
BV,
I know that over the years we have agreed on many issues including this one. BTW, you can read a longer version of the above hypothesis in a post at Yalibnan.com or at rationalrepublic.blogspot.com
December 30, 2010 at 6:59 pm
http://dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=2&article_id=123118#axzz19daISZ39
From the jist of this article one should not be surprised if Harb’s proposal does become M14 policy.
December 30, 2010 at 7:30 pm
Tamer k,
The Christian leadership in Lebanon is so backward and reactionary. It is very clear that minister harb’s proposal is so much out of touch with the realities on the ground that it will turn out to be a huge fiasco. Harb is simply reacting to the fact that the Christian community ( read Maronites) cannot fathom that they are no longer call the shots in Lebanon. They will do whatever it takes to postpone their inevitable decline as long as Lebanon is based on the 18th century sectarian formula. No matter what Harb and Bkirki come up with the power and number of the Maronites in Lebanon is on the decline and will continue to be so for the foreseeable future. The best thing that the Maronite church can do for Lebanon is to replace the old man of Bkirki , declare that the Maronite Church will no longer get involved in politics and offer their full support for a secular state i.e deconfessional electoral system, civil marriage and an official law that separates the religious institutions from the state.
M14 is not doing the Maronites any favour by encouraging them to commit suicide.
December 30, 2010 at 9:49 pm
Certainly many in Lebanon will find nothing wrong with the Butros Harb proposal, heck there are Harb apologists even here on this blog among those who lived many years in Canada or the US. It looks like the good old Phoenician Nazi bug has no cure.
December 30, 2010 at 11:09 pm
If the secular enlightened intellectual lawmaker, who prides himself of being a constitutional expert, thinks along this line of thinking, what should one expect from the sectarian minded people of Lebanon?
December 31, 2010 at 3:50 am
Is there a rush to judgment here? Could Harb be using a shock tactic to bring to the front the issue of the foreign-financed, systematic purchase of property by one particular sect (or more) creating religiously “pure” areas?
I don’t pretend to know the answer but I wonder if one shouldn’t give some of the politicians in Lebanon a little bit more credit than the outright dismissal they seem to all get in one fell swoop. Uqab Saqr anyone?
December 31, 2010 at 3:51 am
My fellow chess players on this blog, how about adding a couple of moves or more in your analysis?
December 31, 2010 at 6:52 am
Would just like to wish everyone a happy New Year’s Eve. I’m back in the US, and plan to write something up tonight inshallah for the blog. Apologies for the long hiatus.
December 31, 2010 at 7:33 am
HP,
The proposal by Harb is DOA . It does not desreve any other treatment. The real Harb, a servant of the backwardness of Bkirki, has finally emerged from the shadows. He is actively seeking the blessings of Bkirki in an effort to gain some support for his presidential ambitions. Harb has shown clearly , through this move, that nothing will deter him and the church from holding on the status quo even at the expense of creating Ghettos and shooting themselves in the foot. This political philosophy of superiority and essentialism must come to an end. The Maronites are not satisfied with 50% of the seats when the Christians are hardly 35% of the population.
And since when is “foreign, ownership of Lebanon an issue? What are these foreign financed schemes to buy land? Foreign land ownership of Lebanon is more tightly limited than it needs to be and it does not represent more than a very small fraction of land in Lebanon. The real danger , in the eyes of the Lebanese Maronites, is the fact that Moslems from the Gulf are buying Villas in Lebanon. Had it been Iraqi Christians then I doubt it very much whether we would have heard much about this issue.
What is also ironic about this opposition to land sales to non Lebanese is the fact that the relatively attractive performance of the Lebanese economy over the past few years is primarily due to the real estate sector which is essentially dependent on in flows of foreign capital. That , btw, is already coming to an end and the Harb proposal will hasten its demise. Property values in Lebanon have peaked and I would not be surprised if the Lebanese economy faces the same hurdles of steep declines in real estate prices, just like Spain a, the UK and the US.
December 31, 2010 at 7:47 am
HP
BTW, what makes a person a member of a particular religious sect? Is it the silly bureaucratic records that the government keeps or does the individual have a say in this matter? What if the government records say that I am a Maronite but then I decide to adopt Islam? Would that give me the right to sell my property to another Moslem or would I be forced to sell to a Christian although the Moslem is willing to pay me a premium? Are we sugesting that foreign purchasers will have to meet a religious affiliation test before they can complete a real estate transaction? This is simply madness. It is an act of desperation by orchestrated by the church elders. This is another example about the dire need to end sectarianism in Lebanon. It is the root cause of all that ails this wretched and sorry land of ours.
December 31, 2010 at 8:40 am
Mr. Harb tried to attend to an assumed problem which is the mass land buying by HA financed by Iran. Even If we are to agree that the problem exists, I can describe his proposal as Rubbish.
Instead, as a lawyer, he should have addressed the problem that there are no laws in Lebanon that governs the financing of the political parties and their channels of spending these funds. This applies not only to HA but also to all others. Lebanon has a corrupt system that every political party is benifiting from.
In my opinion, addressing this issue will go a long way in removing many of the hurdles to build a proper state.
December 31, 2010 at 11:26 am
It is a terrible law. It is doubtful that it will pass in parliment anyway, so why even suggested.
The confessional system is the root cause of the dysfunctional state. The only salvation is to replace it with a secular constitution full stop.
How to get there is the $64k question. A couple of years ago, this very topic was debated heavily on QN, especially the portion of how to go about the change. It was a lively debate to say the least. All in all, not an easy task given the division of society. Wish it was otherwise.
December 31, 2010 at 12:52 pm
Wishing everyone a Happy and healthy New year .
December 31, 2010 at 12:59 pm
The Lebanese constitution states in its preamble:
“There is no constitutional legitimacy for any authority which contradicts the ‘pact of communal coexistence’ [mithaq al-aysh al-mushtaraq]. This Constitutional Law shall be published in the Official Gazette.”
It also states in the same preamble a desired objective to achieve the goal of the gradual elimination of the confessional system.
This is a contract that binds all the sectors of the Lebanese society.
Until such time all parties concerned agree to eliminate the confessional system, the requirements of “communal coexistence” are the overriding principles guaranteeing social peace. In theory any State in the world has the right to limit foreign ownership regardless of communal overtones. But, there is nothing wrong whatsoever in proposing laws that are expressed in terms of communal interests as this is what constitutes Lebanon by admission of all. If the law passes, then so be it which means that parties involved in the national contract are not yet ready to move to the next step. If it doesn’t pass, as someone pointed out is most likely, then there will be political implications for quite sometime to come.
Communal differences existed long before Lebanon was created. And it was created recognizing these differences.
More important than these differences is the existence of a paramilitary group funded by a State determined to export its form of religious beliefs. This paramilitary group continues to challenge and erode the central authority. There is no indication whatsoever that this foreign funded military organization has any inclinations whatsoever to a commitment towards a secular state. On the contrary each and every action it undertakes reveals a subservient role to the political and religious agenda of the foreign power.
Here’s one which is more relevant than arguing about laws. Some analysts are proposing that the behind the scene negotiations between the two S’s in fact may have involved other parties. It may be that France was and may still is a party. The plan proposed by the French, in fact, included the dissociation of The GOL and Hariri himself of the STL in return for a ‘demilitarized’ Lebanon among other things. A distinction was made between disarming Palestinian groups outside camps and disarming of other militias including HA. The latter would be incorporated into the Lebanese army. The plan was rejected by Syria and it (Syria through Buthaina) later issued statements linking the elimination of STL to so-called 17-May (1983) milestone. Syria in other words would like to re-enact the drama of 18 years ago. The Saudis were told this is the only way Lebanon can remain strong.
So before arguing laws and secularism, Lebanon is still in the eyes of its neighbours not yet past the so-called Taef accord. It looks like it still is so in the eyes of many Lebanese.
December 31, 2010 at 2:11 pm
GK, as always we are in full agreement.
Anonymous’s last post. What a bunch of empty headed attempts at rationalizing a proposed law that violates every tenet of free market, democracy, constitutionality (yes, even that) not to mention human rights.
Pure and simple: A law that dictates that you can or cannot sell to someone of a different sect is absolutely no different than pre-civil rights era USA, apartheid-era South Africa and so on.
Trying to use the two wrongs make a right logic (as long as HA is buying property funded by Iran, we have to protect our Christian lands) is idiotic at best.
Those who said that the simple solution for all is an end to sectarianism are correct. Not a gradual move to a secular state, or some of the proposals floated now and again by Berri and the like. Complete and 100% secularisation all in one fell swoop. Nothing short of that will cure Lebanon. NOTHING.
I’m talking about a new constitution, devoid of ANY sectarian language whatsoever. I’m talking about a complete deconfessionalisation of the system, both political, civil, etc.
December 31, 2010 at 2:32 pm
Bad Vilbel,
With all due respect to your opinion, you cannot enforce a new constitution on Lebanon just by decreeing it.
Your analogy here of two wrongs do not equal right does not apply either.
THERE IS NOTHING WRONG IN THE PROPOSED LAW. PERIOD.
THE PRESENCE OF FOREIGN FUNDED MILITARY ORGANIZATION IN LEBANON IS THE ONLY WRONG IN YOUR EQUATION.
You can continue your academic discusion for a long as you wish. Until such time the parties concerned agree to move to the next step what we have is what we have.
Every country on earth limits foreign ownership. Lebanon has more claims to such prerogative than any other.
December 31, 2010 at 3:07 pm
I agree that the presence of foreign funded military is wrong. We’re in agreement there.
That aside, yes, there is something wrong with a law that says that I can’t sell my land to whoever I damn well please as long as they are Lebanese.
It’s the same as saying that blacks couldn’t own land in the US back in the 1800s, and so on.
It is a segregationist law that is wrong at every damn possible level, starting with the basic tenets of human rights and equality, and ending with free market rules. It is wrong at the most fundemental of levels.
And that’s not even getting into the economics of it. Free market rules go to the toilet when you restrict who you can sell your land to. If you happen to be a muslim owning land in Kesrwan after this law passes, good luck getting market value for it.
December 31, 2010 at 3:10 pm
I forgot to add: I don’t get why you’re talking about foreign ownership. Lebanon DOES limit foreign ownership. That is NOT what this law is about. This law is about fellow Lebanese citizens buying and selling land to each other.
Joe Matar can no longer buy land in the Chouf, or the South. Mohammad Bizri can no longer buy land in the Metn. I don’t know which sect you’re from, but I hope your family doesn’t own any land or property in a part of Lebanon that’s predominantly another sect, cause your property value just plummeted by 50%…
December 31, 2010 at 4:40 pm
The “motives” behind this proposed law (although it as stupid as it can be)is supposedly trying to stop Hizballah buying large swathes of land (they did in Druse & Christian areas in the South and Bekaa) to basically establish “beachheads” in those areas.
The main problem is that of a terrorist militia buying up Lebanon. Harb’s moves/efforts are basically misguided and wrong. Firstly because there is no chance in hell for it to pass and secondly it is indescribably dumb!
I am with Gus and BV regarding total secularization. However, you have to look at the current situation whereas Iran is basically buying up the country through supposed islamic NGO’s …What to do?
Definitely not what Harb has suggested!
I’d say have a one man one vote immediately and give up the country totally to HA. I would like to see them sabotage themselves!
December 31, 2010 at 6:12 pm
BV 270,
Glad to know we are on agreement on one side of it.
I liked the way you graduated your opinion about the other side from something wrong in it to completely wrong in every damn way. Here we do not agreement.
All what you said can be easily overridden based on the argument that maintaining social peace is the highest priority based on the present constitution – sort of same logic but somewhat more civilized than the continuous blackmail HA has been engaged in for many years by its threat due to the presence of the agreed upon wrong of a the presence of foreign funded militia in Lebanon – these threats as we all know were carried out with utmost savagery against FELLOW Lebanese at least once. Reports also indicate that such incidents are recurring on individual and sporadic cases by the same militia. As a side note to your previous comment, you failed to list the takers of Berri’s plan or whether he is still for it.
Your 271 has been answered by danny quite well. I am not going to argue that the wording is stupid. Perhaps the only non-stupid thing in the way it was worded is its limited duration. But we know what the real issue is. And yes danny this is what Harb suggested. The proposed law is actually drafted with reference to the same clause from the constitution that I quoted above.
I am not here to orchestrate my contribution based on who agrees or disagrees with me. I would like to maintain my individuality and express myself accordingly. I find little value when contributors have to abide by such motives.
Danny, I fail to see that actually a one man one vote would lead to the scenario you suggested. But I am not against your idea.
I would propose, however, that Harb’s plan may provide a very tiny incentive to move to the next step sometime down the line based on the present constitution. And it is also quite possible that it may also lead to segregation.
As for those who argue in terms of drafting laws against foreign funding of political groups, I say, there is no workable mechanism to enforce such law in the presence of paramilitary organizations.
December 31, 2010 at 6:33 pm
“All what you said can be easily overridden based on the argument that maintaining social peace is the highest priority based on the present constitution”
anon based on your argument then I am sure you are for abandoning the STL for the sake of lebanon’s “social peace”
December 31, 2010 at 7:51 pm
“All what you said can be easily overridden based on the argument that maintaining social peace is the highest priority based on the present constitution”
anon based on your argument then I am sure you are for abandoning the STL for the sake of lebanon’s “social peace”
Any one of you guys heard about a word…BLACKMAIL?
There will never be any peace built on threats!! Live by the sword then die by it!
December 31, 2010 at 8:00 pm
tamer 274,
Based on your last comment you are admitting HA has committed the crime.
Also you are admitting it is legitimate to use paramilitary organizations to settle judicial disputes.
None of the above is acceptable to majority of Lebanese including over 40% of Shia community according to a recent poll conducted by an American organization. I do not have details right off hand but I’ll search it and provide a link.
It doesn’t follow from my argument that I am abandoning STL:
1) STL may continue even if it is abandoned by Lebanon. It doesn’t make any sense to the party most concerned.
2) The scenario may lead to Lebanon becoming a pariah state in opposition to International legitimacy. Very unacceptable to any Lebanese including HA sympathizers.
3) The damage to HA and to social peace will be even worse if that were to happen.
4) There may be groups who are in the shadows of the Hariri camp waiting to radicalize a whole community based on that same scenario you mentioned.
HA is at a crossroads. It has to decide either to demilitarize, severe ties with Iran and become a political organization in the full sense or experience irreversible erosion of its popularity in Lebanon as well as throughout the region.
January 1, 2011 at 12:37 am
Here is the link to the poll I referred to in the last comment,
http://www.ipacademy.org/news/general-announcement/209-iran-lebanon-israelis-and-palestinians-new-ipi-opinion-polls.html
January 1, 2011 at 9:45 am
No comments,
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/dec/31/lebanon-brink-rafik-hariri-tribunal-hezbollah
January 1, 2011 at 9:48 am
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/dec/31/lebanon-brink-rafik-hariri-tribunal-hezbollah
January 1, 2011 at 11:30 am
How true!!
“No matter if Lebanon can weather the gathering storm, this will not be the first crisis, or the last. The country’s dilemma is structural; as long as Lebanon’s political class substitutes identity-politics for formal institutions, it will continue to be politically unstable. As long as Lebanon’s leaders rely on foreign intervention to tip the internal balance of power in their favour, they will remain passive bystanders in determining their country’s future.”
(From the article posted by Norman#278)
January 1, 2011 at 1:03 pm
Danny,
Thank you ,
I noticed the same paragraph ,and felt that it was interesting so i put the whole article up,
January 1, 2011 at 1:22 pm
Danny,
An analysis devoted to the superficial will help in shedding some light on an issue but it never leads to a deep understanding of the laws of motion of the phenomenon that is being investigated.
May I suggest that , in this case, that is exactly the problem that we are facing in Lebanon. The guardian article is helpful in highlighting the structural problems but it falls short of identifying the root causes of why we act the way that we do; why is it that we are structured the way that we are?
Unless we identify the root cause of what makes us behave the way that we do and then proceed to modify that then most of our efforts will be for naught.
Allow me to give you an example of what I mean by the above. In environmentalism, the real issue is not that we pollute and that pollution is harmful. We have known that for a long time. The real issue is why do we pollute when we know that it is harmful. One potential answer to this question is the strong belief in duality which , based on Genisis, explains that everything was created for our enjoyment and that we are to exploit and multiply i.e we are outside of nature and not part of it. As you can see from the above, in this case environmentalism does not have a technical solution. Ecological degradation will be reduced to managable proportions only if we change our core beliefs. We need to adopt the view that we are part of the eco community. If we do then we will no longer exploit plants, rocks, rivers, animals , mountains…
I suggest that a parallel analysis is required in Lebanon. The real issue is not that we have a certain structure but instead it should be why is it that we adopted that particular structure? As you can see, I am a firm believer that our problem in Lebanon is essentially about values, beliefs, paradigm. It is essentially moral. We seem to be passive politically, we do not believe in rocking the boat, in questioning hierarchies. Lebanon is for all practical purposes controlled by men of the cloth. They are almost deities. It does not appear that we have any use for the concept of individual rights and personal freedoms. We accept the concept of inherited leadership and have no use for governmental institutions. Simply stated we lack an understanding of what is the meaning of citizenship, what are its duties and obligations. Unless we can bring about a radical change in our view of who we are and what is our role as citizens then all other efforts will be for naught.
There are a few small groups in Lebanon that are devoting all their efforts towards educating the public about “Al Mouatiniah”. I wish them luck because they are the only ones that are addressing the root cause of our problems.
The prerequisite is to free ourselves from all the baggage that has accumulated over the years. To build a free society one needs free individuals and equal rights. ( women, children, minorities…)
January 1, 2011 at 3:39 pm
Ghassan,
No Society and definitely not Lebanese society is structured to behave in a specific way.
Human behavior, generally, is constrained by the rules that govern particular environments. People are obligated to behave in a particular way, or to avoid certain behaviors. These rules may be formal laws, or they may be informal rules of conventional norms within a society, which are not necessarily written down.
The enforcement of these rules -be it moral, political, or social rules- or the lack of their enforcement, eventually define the habits and behavior of a society.
Whether you want to change the attitude of a society or its behavior, you need to set the rules, and enforce them fairly.
You want a society to be democratic; you need to set democratic rules. You want people to be tolerant, you need to set rules to protect civil and human rights, and to protect against bigotry and racism. Most importantly, you need to enforce these rules.
Bill Clinton’s most famous answer to the question of why He behaved the way He did at the white house with Monica, is the most telling; He said “Because I thought I could” thinking He could get away with it.
Happy and healthy New Year.
January 1, 2011 at 8:35 pm
Let’s not make things more complicated than they should. Otherwise we lose compass. Definitely, there are many schools of ethics. They can be reduced to the two most common schools:
1) Kantian moral absolutism
2) Utilitarianism
Lest you come up with the well known school of the Golden Rule, I say, it is included in both.
If someone’s behaviour does not fit in any of the above, then he or she is not behaving ethically. Full stop.
January 1, 2011 at 9:03 pm
anon #238,
That does not contradict my point, actually it supports it. Kamt used his categorical imperative to predict the rise and dominance of democratic and republican forms of government. My point, is that this has not happened yet either in any of the Arab countries including Lebanon. The reason is rather simple but not easy to correct. Individuals in Lebanon do not believe in their power ato change things and in their duty to act in such a way as to hold others accountable. Once we can change the ethos of a large proportion of the Lebanese then the whole current archaic system will come tumbling down.
January 1, 2011 at 10:21 pm
Glad to know GK that What I said does not contradict your point. But in the end result, we’re back to square one. The status quo will not be overturned overnight or so easily.
Assuming your initial plan in 248 is immediately enacted into laws, and assuming people received it with open hearts and further assuming acted on it enthusiastically, how long will it take to accomplish your goal of changing the ethos of a large proportion of the population? one generation? Two generations? or may be three?
Notice that most of the assumptions have almost nil chance of being close to realistic, what should we do in the meantime knowing all what we know at the moment?
(I never lose sight of reality but I can also see dreams)
January 1, 2011 at 10:48 pm
anon,
You might be surprised to know that we are in agreement on some aspects and in disagreement on other ones,
No one has an idea whether a paradigm shift is going to occur and what is it that will trigger it. It might take months , decades or it might never happen. The point being that if a patient takes pain killers then they might have a temporary beneficial effect but these pain killers only hide the problem. This does not mean that pain killers should not be used but they should not be confused with a prescription that attacks the root cause of the disease.
On this we are in agreement.
But I suspect that we disagree rather strongly on the type of pain killer. In this case I submit that the prescription by Harb/Bkirki/ will not be of any behefit to the patient because it does not understand clearly the social dynamics involved. The proposed plan , might be very well intentioned, but will result in increasing the problem that it is attempting to solve.
January 1, 2011 at 11:49 pm
Agreeing or disagreeing is besides the point to me. I look at it as an exercise in exchanging views.
My argument about the Harb plan had more to do with the validity of the proposed law than an expected benefit i.e. is it valid to propose it? I still say it is valid to do so based on comments I made already and he could probably do a better job rewording it. I can go ahead and list benefits and also disadvantages. But that is besides the point as I said.
Nevertheless, here is another opinion where Hazem seems to touch on the same more important subject of the paradigm shift you mentioned without actually using the term. I do not know if you would call his conclusion pessimistic or optimistic. But it seems he is trying to legitimize external factors in bringing it about – unless I misunderstood him,
http://www.nowlebanon.com/NewsArticleDetails.aspx?ID=226594
January 2, 2011 at 12:48 pm
anon,
The last thing that I want to do is go off on a tangent but allow me only one brief remark. I cannot speak for Mr. Saghieh but he and possibly you and others advocate change through evolution . I do not believe that is helpful in this case since evolution maintains the same rotten base of beliefs. Paradigm shift is about a revolution, about starting all over again from a blank sheet of paper.
Back to the STL however. Some thoughts that I have been mulling around for a while. i might even put them together in a 900 word column later on tonight. Let me use this venue as a sounding board.
If the STL indictments turn out to be essentially an accusation that Mughanieh and Ghazi Kanaan were responsible , two dead men, then what would be the implications. If that turns out to be the case then Mehlis would have the last laugh. The report of the IIIC claimed Syrian fingerprints over the whole operation , how convenient that Ghazi Kanaan committed suicide. It was always known that the top of the pyramid would not be implicated , if for nothing else but plausible deniability but what about the Mughanieh role? Yes he probably recruited the foot soldiers who pulled the trigger but who was he working for. Is there an Iranian role, was he working for Syria, what about Israel, could he have been working for the Mossad? Who killed him in his very secure quarters ? Hezbollah has not retaliated for his death and the Mossad has not taken responsibility either directly or indirectly. Was he also eliminated and if so is the STL indictmant of two dead men a cover up of sorts?
No matter what I still maintain that the least result of the indictment will be a serious weakening of Hezbollah. It might be forced to find a way out of its monopoly over its military wing and to transform itself to a purely political movement. I still stand by my earlier assertions that the most logical result of the indictment is to set in motion a process that will weaken Hezbollahs hold over the decision making in Lebanon . We are witnessing the beginning of the end of the Hezbollah era.
January 2, 2011 at 7:12 pm
I believe, GK, that Mr. Saghieh is referring to a paradigm shift in at least one case which is Egypt and the era of Mohammad Ali,in which the French influence was instrumental in producing meaningful reforms. He is also saying that no change in the region took place without an external element. But as it is well known Ali’s reforms were later extinguished by the great powers of the time, and his reign was later confined to Egypt after almost capturing most of the ‘mashreq’.
Other cases such as Iraq, even though the change may be described as a sudden change and Saghieh is obviously corect, cannot be compared to the change in Egypt under Ali. If the objective was to set in motion a process to create a general change in ethos, the Iraqi case was a regression.
As for the STL, you stated rather eloquently what I proposed in 238. The false argument used by HA that the tribunal is politicized is nothing but a preemptive attempt to avoid paying any real price for crime(s) it may turn out it was responsible for. The price must be in kind to the proceeds of the crime. Any other outcome would be a washout.
January 2, 2011 at 9:54 pm
“Mossad has not taken responsibility either directly or indirectly.”
For context:
It’s against the institutionalized Israeli doctrine of long standing to openly claim coup. Although, the recent report (if true) that the new head of the Mossad will go to the UK and formally apologize for the use of Brit passports in the blatantly obvious Dubai hit would indicate a shift. However, Israel>Brit intel cooperation has suffered and Tamir Pardo’s mea culpa & promise of “never again” would be a charm offensive mounted in an attempt mend the frayed relationship.
But have no doubt that Israelies, in their own manner, accept that Mughanieh was their doing.
http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2011/01/02/former-mossad-chief-implies-israeli-responsibility-for-al-mabouh-assassination-concedes-it-was-a-failure/
The Israelis have also stated that any HA act of revenge anywhere in the world will trigger the next war.
BTW, the new Mossad head guy, Tamir Pardo, rose to prominence due to his facility with “phone tapping”, among other related skills.
Do tell.
January 2, 2011 at 11:15 pm
OK, I’ll Tell
Lally,
You forgot to mention that other act of “Tikkun Olam” Jewish liberals seem to forget:
Destroying the Iraqi nuclear reactor at Osirak. As we’ve come to learn, many nations were (quietly) relieved…
January 2, 2011 at 11:29 pm
Ghassan,
I’ve accepted the apparent fact that the STL might be the only issue (that I could think of), which you and have a TOTAL disagreement on, and we’ll continue to do so.
This is an imaginative speculation about the possible role of Muhgnieh and Kanaan.
It’s a well known secret why Kanaan “committed suicide”. It’s also a well known secret , that tens of high ranking Syrian officers were, either executed or mysteriously disappeared around that same period. The internal struggle among the regime’s elite and the possible coup which may have been planned by the Kanaan and Khaddam group, with the support of the Saudis, is not just speculation, but very real.
Mugnieh’s possible recruitment by the Mossad is just laughable.
Since when did Israel ever openly admit to carrying any assassination of its enemies? What would you say if HA retaliated to his assassination and Israel deemed such retaliation a good excuse to launch another war against Lebanon? Wouldn’t you and everyone else hold HA responsible for triggering such war? Are you urging HA to retaliate? I hope not, lol.
Following your hypothetical Scenario, any indictment which would hold Mugnieh and kannan responsible for Hariri’s murder, could only imply that The STL (and the forces behind the STL) decided to accuse two dead men who can not defend themselves.
As for Mehlis’s report, He never named Mughnieh or any HA member as a suspect. He specifically suspected Syria along with the four Lebanese officers of plotting the Hariri assassination. Mehlis would have nothing to laugh about. His era at the UNIIIC was full of controversies.
As for the STL indictment triggering the end of HA, this is exactly what the Americans, some western countries, some Arab states, and Israel intended on doing by diverting the STL toward accusing HA. Is it going to work for them? It remains to be seen.
Again, Lebanon is the same sectarian country we’ve been talking about, where a sect and political party might be one body. They stand up together or go down together.
Feltman’s statement at a congressional hearing, in which He stated that the US spend $500 million to destroy HA’s reputation is really part of that same ploy. The UN is not as independent as one should hope. Politics and interests can influence the UN and the STL.
January 3, 2011 at 12:50 am
I did not comment, GK, on your references to Mughniyeh and Kanaan on purpose. It was obvious you were speculating.
When it comes to issues relating to internal Syrian security, speculations can run wild. Kanaan’s death for example generated at least seven or eight theories ranging from psychological problems, to elimination in order to burry information particularly information sought by UNIIC to plotting against Bashar’s regime and other theories. However, eliminating the more obscure figure of Ali Kanaan (Ghazi’s brother) one year later may weigh the odds in favour of certain speculations over others,
http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/NewsDesk.nsf/getstory?openform&BE29CBE0E27432ACC2257222002CB257
As for Mughniyeh, there is a good reason why HA did not retaliate for his death. HA seems to be convinced that Syrian regime itself was behind his killing,
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/12/14/the_missing_assassin?page=0,0
It is hypocrisy at its best to claim to want to effect positive changes in Lebanon and then pose in defence of a foreign funded paramilitary organization, and fail to call for its disarming and the severance of its ties to that foreign power (Iran of course).
January 3, 2011 at 9:18 am
PeterinDubai # 249: ‘Why the foreign speaking Armenians are still in Lebanon when they have a nation to live under is a bit baffling.’
That’s not as baffling as to why you feel the urge to enunciate your ignorance (perhaps racism?) every time u post some drivel.
So Armenians are now ‘foreign spoken’ and the francophone phoenicians are ‘native spoken’? Can u enlighten us what’s the native language in Lebanon? What’s the native religion? May be the native (superior) race?
January 3, 2011 at 9:48 am
Prophet,
If you would go back and reread what I said then you would find out that it was only ideas that I raised without answering many of them. I do not know who killed Muggheinyeh but the circumstances surrounding his elimination were very suspicious. As for accusing two dead men, I also raised that issue as being potentially problematic.
Time will tell what are going to be the implications of the STL indictments. It would not make sense to suggest that Hezbollah does not care about the indictments and that it will not be affected by them when the party itself seems to have marshaled all its resources to prevent the indictment. I still believe that logic dictates that Hezbollah will pay the price for its involvement, if that turns out to be the case. BTW, paying the price will not be evident immediately but would take some time before the reaction is felt all throughout the system.
anon,
I suggest that no country ,all throughout history, has ever let an illegal foreign funded and trained militia that uses its firepower to act as a state within a state participate in political process. I do not see any difference between the decision to allow Hezbollah to continue to be funded by Iran and to allow it to receive smuggled arms and the disastrous to the state than the Cairo Accords of Al Bustani.
January 3, 2011 at 12:31 pm
“…smuggled arms and the disastrous to the state than the Cairo Accords of Al Bustani.”
GK, You’re referring to the 1968 Cairo accord, I assume. If so, I do not sure which Bustani you have in mind, or what role he/she played. You probably meant Frangieh.
You’re right. And again you’re restating what I said in 41. HA’s regime is no different than and is an extension of the fatah land regime. It would be interesting to speculate in retrospect what the outcome would have been if Lebanon stood up against 21 states in that summit and rejected the accords. In retrospect many would agree it should have.
In 223, I stated Lebanese (politicians and people) must reject the logic of the duality of Army/Resistance/People and declare it illegitimate in the same way the Cairo Accords were abrogated. In fact, legitimate resistance ended long ago, and HA had little role to play in it. HA came in later supported by Syria and claimed the legacy. That is the utmost mark of hypocricy manifested by this group.
January 3, 2011 at 12:50 pm
General Bustani, the head of the army, was also the head of the Lebanese delegation to Cairo. It is reported that he is the one who agreed to all of the conditions in the Cairo Accords.
January 3, 2011 at 4:28 pm
Ghassan,#296
I didn’t suggest that HA does not or should not care about the STL indictment.
From their reaction, they seem to care even when they dismiss the STL publicly. Their dismissal is part of their defense strategy, it seems. They do care about their reputation, and they are trying to save that image, but if it comes down to survival, reputation becomes a secondary issue to them, I think.
My reference to the sectarian factor is meant to indicate that ,both HA, and Amal are convinced ( from their public behavior at least) that the indictment will eventfully ,at least in the court of public opinion, convict the whole Shiia sect. That leads me to believe that both have believed that they will either stand together or go down together.
As wrong or bad as this sound, I think it is an accurate reading of the shii/HA/Aaml triangle of survival. Will they make the survival of the sect connected to their survival? Most likely, yes.
As for Mugnieh, I suspect that ,at lease one element of the Syrian intelligence apparatus had to either, close its eyes, or had be involved .
January 3, 2011 at 4:40 pm
Correction,
The following sentence should have said: That leads me to believe that both believe that they will either stand together or go down together.
January 5, 2011 at 7:54 pm
Sigh…..
According to Ronen Bergman “the senior political and military analyst for the Israeli newspaper Yedioth Ahronoth and the author of several books….” Mughniyeh was the responsibility of Meir Dagan’s “knife between it’s teeth” Mossad:
“The number of complex targeted assassinations carried out by the Mossad also increased under Dagan. The most high-profile of these was the elimination in Damascus of Imad Mughniyeh, Hezbollah’s military chief. Among other terrorist acts, Mughniyeh was responsible for the bombing of the U.S. embassy and the Marine barracks in Beirut in 1983, and the bombings in Buenos Aires of the Israeli embassy in 1992 and a Jewish cultural center in 1994. In February 2008 his head was blown off by an explosive device that had been planted in the driver’s-side headrest of his rental car.”
http://www.gq.com/news-politics/big-issues/201101/the-dubai-job-mossad-assassination-hamas?printable=true¤tPage=4