A few days ago, I blogged about the debate that has begun to emerge among Mideast analysts with respect to the situation in Syria. One of the major sticking points in that debate is the question of what role Syrian “sectarianism” is playing in the anti-Assad protests and the regime’s counter-propaganda. A couple pieces of commentary caught my eye today, and I think they do a good job of illustrating the two main lines of argumentation on this issue:
(1) Joshua Landis & Ammar Abdulhamid at Blogging Heads: This interview is highly worth watching in its entirety. Landis asks all the relevant questions, and Abdulhamid — a Syrian dissident exiled in Washington and a leading opposition activist –provides a very interesting take on several issues, including: (1) the origins of the protests; (2) the multi-faceted character of the opposition; (3) what happens the day after the regime falls; (4) the future of Syria’s relationship with Iran and Israel.
On the question of Syrian sectarianism, Landis challenges Abdulhamid to respond to those who fear that Syria could disintegrate into a sectarian civil war, like Lebanon during the 70’s and 80’s, or Iraq after the US invasion. Abdulhamid’s response, to my mind, is not particularly convincing. He argues that Syria is exceptional; it is unlike Lebanon and Iraq, and will find a way to withstand a sectarian conflagration because it is “a country of minorities”. Furthermore, this exceptionalism is something that the regime itself has always touted.
The logic is easy to pick apart. Lebanon is even more diverse, minority-wise, than Syria and this did not prevent a sectarian civil war. Furthermore, it strikes me as problematic to use regime propaganda to bolster a claim of Syrian exceptionalism. Note that I am not arguing that Syria is actually a sectarian powder-keg; I just don’t think that Abdulhamid’s argument is very convincing.
(2) May Akl, “The False Hope of Revolution in Syria,” (Foreign Policy): In this piece by Michel Aoun’s US spokesperson, the Syrian protests are characterized as a fringe phenomenon instigated by Salafist elements who don’t have Syria’s best interests at heart. No real evidence is presented for this thesis beyond the notion that a recent army ambush had the tell-tale signs of a jihadi operation. Akl plays the sectarianism card with gusto:
Syria is a secular country where minorities are protected, and as much as they might want to see a regime change in their country, the majority of Syrians cannot accept their country becoming another Iraq — in terms of security — or another Saudi Arabia — in terms of religious rule.
Obviously a majority of Syrians — or, for that matter, the citizens of any country anywhere in the world — would prefer not to see their nation disintegrate into a bloody civil war. But that’s neither here nor there. The issue is whether or not the levels of dissatisfaction with the regime will eventually prevail over whatever anxieties may indeed exist about inter-sect relations.
Incidentally, it’s also worth comparing this Aounist position on Syria with Aoun’s own statement at a fundraiser in the US in the early 2000’s (Arabic YouTube clip; English translation below):
Hizbullah is the extension of the [foreign] policy of two countries — Iran and Syria — in Lebanon, and its operations are controlled by these two countries. We refuse to say that the responsibility [for Hizbullah’s actions] lies with one organization only; when Syria itself is dealt with, Hizbullah will disappear from Lebanon. But if Hizbullah is hit in Lebanon, Syria will bequeath us a second Hizbullah and a third, and a fourth, and a fifth. In a spirit of friendship with the Syrian people, I wish them salvation from a terrorist regime, because this people was the first victim of terrorism. Let’s not forget that Hama was the first example of terrorism, when in twenty-four hours the Syrian regime killed more than 30,000 citizens because they were opposed to its rule.
My point is not to play a game of gotcha with Akl or Abdulhamid, but simply to say that we should all recognize that the sectarianism question is very much open. We just don’t know how it is going to feature in the fallout of the Syrian revolution, assuming the protesters can prevail.
Can anyone recommend some solid reading on the current state of the Syrian Muslim Brotherhood? Who are the experts?
Qifa Nabki 
I’m no Syria expert but I would like to point out the biggest difference between Syria and Iraq/Lebanon, specifically, foreign invasion. The latter two countries suffered foreign invasion and occupation. When the occupying powers faced local resistance, they resorted to divide and conquer tactics.
I think that is a crucial difference. I don’t think the fall of the Assad regime will result in civil war or mass killings of Aliwites/Christians or other minorities. There may be a Kurdish push for autonomy, but all out independence will be prevented by Turkey.
I do think Saudi Arabia among others will stick their fingers in the pie, but I don’t think they will seriously affect the outcome.
Posted by Lysander | April 20, 2011, 10:16 pmQN,
The Syrian people are sectarian, they are tribal and they take strength by belonging to their religion or ethnic group, The Syrian government and the Baath party kept that in check for the last 47 years, any weakness of law enforcement in Syria will ignite a sectarian war,
The US has the same problem but has many wise people who attack verbally any sign of racism and companies fire people who commit these deeds, these behaviors like what the Qaradawi said are not tolerated in the US while are welcomed and encouraged in our land.
Posted by Norman | April 20, 2011, 10:18 pmI partly agree with Lysander and partly disagree.
He is wrong in attributing the cause of sectarian strife in Lebanon to external invasions. The sectarian war in Lebanon was triggered for well known reasons that preceded any invasions. We all know Lebanon is a sectarian country by its raison d’être. We do not need an external factor to ignite it.
Iraq’s descent into sectarian strife can be attributed to foreign intervention from neighbouring states (both Syria and Iran). Iran played the major role. The US made the mistake of dissolving the army.
I agree with Lysander that in case of a sectarian war in Syria, Turkey will act and would intervene decisively with or without world approval, and I alluded to that scenario not long ago.
“….it is unlike Lebanon and Iraq, and will find a way to withstand a sectarian conflagration because it is “a country of minorities”. Furthermore, this exceptionalism is something that the regime itself has always touted.
The logic is easy to pick apart. Lebanon is even more diverse, minority-wise, than Syria and this did not prevent a sectarian civil war. Furthermore, it strikes me as problematic to use regime propaganda to bolster a claim of Syrian exceptionalism….”
The case for Syria’s exceptionalism can be reinforced by the same argument that even though Syria is diverse, it is not as diverse as Lebanon or even Iraq. In Lebanon, we have almost equilibrium of power among the major sects on the ground. Each sect during the war was tempted to impose its hegemony one way or another. They all failed disastrously. There was no way for one sect to declare victory over others and impose its conditions. This is the realization that led to the consensus among the warlords to resign themselves to the reality on the ground – hence Taef was possible. This is my disagreement with QN. There is a VERY STRONG case for Syria’s exceptionalism.
If a sectarian war is to break in Syria, it is not only natural for polarization to set in but it is an absolute certainty. In other words each soul would follow its herd as it is the custom in that part of the world (notice that I am not saying Syrians are actually sectarian at least at the moment, as unfortunately NORMAN, a Syrian is asserting). If that were to happen, then the odds of who will dominate are heavily biased. You would imagine in this scenario a break up of the army as we witnessed early in the Lebanese war. Some may try to establish ‘independent’ cantons. Turkey will move in at this stage and become the broker of power not just for Syria but for much of Iraq, Syria as well as Lebanon.
On the other hand, the logic of Aoun and Akl are completely opposed. In my opinion, Akl in her piece is attempting to justify Aoun’s choices who along with his movement, may turn out to be the biggest losers if the Syrian regime falls. Hence, the contradiction between boss and Akl becomes evident and hence it is another Aounish clownish piece of bull that should be dismissed outright as irrelevant.
Posted by anonymous | April 20, 2011, 11:01 pmIt is my humble opinion that all this talk about “Sectarianism” and breakouts of “Sectarian Violence” is quite facile.
I don’t know the numbers for Syria, but I think Iraq is actually quite a pertinent example. It will take only a bomb here or a bomb there in a Christian/Alawi/other minority area before you see those populations leaving Syria in droves. You don’t need to have an endemic “Sectarian” problem before you see the effects of even a minimal level of “sectarian violence”.
In this spirit, QN, your analysis is way off mark. The mosaic of Lebanon may be a lot more complex, but in a Sectarian region, this was simply a recipe for prolonged Sectarian strife. Sectarian strife will not last very long in Syria (nor will it do so in Iraq either). Before you know it, every last minority will be out of either those countries.
It should come as no surprise that the “democracy” movements in all said countries are touting the secularists, and it should come as no surprise that movements like the MB are adopting the talking points of people like Erdogan over in Turkey.
Whether the people of Egypt, Tunis, and now Syria will prove to be able to walk to walk and not just talk the talk for a few soundbites on Al-Jazeera English, or the BBC or CNN is something yet to be seen.
Norm: I suspect you may likely be right in your future-telling. But I cannot accept that the price of “communal harmony” should be the dictator’s boot on the necks of people.
Posted by Gabriel | April 20, 2011, 11:36 pmFourth, the regime is as guilty of using and manipulating these same ‘demonized’ and ‘unseen’ forces as any one else and perhaps even more so. Here’s a rundown:
1) They court Meshaal (an MB) in Damascus and outlaw MB’s in Syria.
2) They court Hamas (MB) in Gaza and seek to destabilize Egypt and are even partly guilty for the 2009 Gaza destruction.
3) They prevented Palestinian reconciliation in 2006 when the factions agreed to it in KSA. Mechaal reneged on his obligations the moment he landed in Damascus. Syrian government was so proud of its achievement at the time and ability to manipulate.
4) They exported the Fatah el-Islam to Nahr el-Barid in Lebanon. Al-Abssi (their leader) is a known graduate of Syrian jails.
5) They were responsible for all or most the Jihadists who crossed to Iraq and helped fuel the sectarian strife in that country.
Wow, that’s quite the laundry list our buddy “Anonymous” has come up with against the Syrian regime.
Who can argue with the truth of any of the above statements? If they were made by anyone other than “Anonymous”, we’d hold them up as words of wisdom.
But coming from the shameless “Anonymous”. What can one say?
Some posts ago, he sported an erection so large, it turned Burj Khalifa green with envy, when talking about Saudi Arabia.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/dec/07/usa.iraq
He has the cheek of complaining about Syria being responsible for the sectarian strife in Iraq.
Comedy Par Excellence!
Posted by Gabriel | April 20, 2011, 11:52 pmhttp://www.aawsat.com/english/news.asp?section=2&id=10407
Is there any good and valid and beneficial reason for idiocy to come out of a deep freezing state?
Posted by anonymous | April 21, 2011, 12:21 amHahahaha… Ya Bala 7aya.
http://www.lebanonwire.com/0605/05060801WP.asp
Go kiss more Saudi A$$.
Posted by Gabriel | April 21, 2011, 12:39 amhttp://www.aawsat.com/english/news.asp?section=2&id=9309
tsk, tsk, tsk
Temperature 1500 and rising. Core meltdown alert.
Posted by anonymous | April 21, 2011, 12:55 amSo Joshua Landis is the mouthpiece of the Baathist Alawi regime in Syria.
And Anonymous is the mouthpiece of the Wahabis.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asharq_Al-Awsat
Yes yes yes. Al Qaeda, Bin Laden and co. are figments of all our imaginations. They are all controlled by Al-Ilah Bashar Assad and his cohorts in the Pantheon of Syrian False Alawi Gods. And they are so daft they don’t even realize it!
The comedy never ceases.
Posted by Gabriel | April 21, 2011, 1:01 amTemperature 1500 and rising. Core meltdown alert.
LoL. Ya 7ubi, I know your buddies in this or that Salafi movement have a penchant for core meltdowns and Self-implosions… typically around Shia mosques and Western venues.
But please don’t follow their footsteps. Here, at the QN forums, we need you, and your non-idiotic wisdom, to steer us towards the light, and truth!
Posted by Gabriel | April 21, 2011, 1:20 amI think you are a bit harsh Gabriel,
I was actually enjoying Anon’s posts. He has provided some deliciously logical arguments backed up by some juicy evidence. I commend thee, but still I cant get rid of that stone in my shoe.
Unless there are two different bloggers of the same moniker, I can’t explain it.
Anon,
Would you please use the same acumen for putting forward convincing arguments to dispel any notion of hypocrisy I had instilled in you by explaining the difference between the regimes in Syria/Egypt et al and the Kingdom?
I’m over the samba, and really would like to shake it to the Saudi WTF style of dancing.
Posted by Maverick | April 21, 2011, 1:38 amMaverick:
You call it harsh. I call it tough love, and shining a mirror.
PS. For the record, I actually think Anon is extremely well read, and generally well informed.
Hence, I started my attack by writing:
Who can argue with the truth of any of the above statements? If they were made by anyone other than “Anonymous”, we’d hold them up as words of wisdom.
I am not attacking him for what he said now. Just for his pussyfooting on the question of the Saudis and their nefarious role in current events.
Posted by Gabriel | April 21, 2011, 1:45 amMaverick:
Unless there are two different bloggers of the same moniker, I can’t explain it.
“Anonymous”,is as his moniker suggests, anonymous. We don’t know his name, and we don’t know his religion/sect.
And while I am loathe to generalize/typecast, what appears to be an inconsistency in positions is not really an inconsistency if one were to assume that “Anonymous” was “sectarian”, and “Sunni”.
If the above assumption is true, then his positions on different matters would follow consistently and logically. It would explain why he’s not really all that keen on democracy in Bahrain or Saudi Arabia. It would explain also why he focuses on Syrian and Iranian roles in promoting sectarian strife in Iraq, while turning the proverbial blind eye to Saudi Arabia.
If the above assumption is false, well then I’m just as stumped as you are.
Posted by Gabriel | April 21, 2011, 2:28 amMaverick,
They say you can rot in samba zoulou land until hell freezes.
wtf cares about your shakes?
Posted by anonymous | April 21, 2011, 2:35 amQifa,
Here’s another reader comment at SyriaComment directed to JL and his site admins.
“13. Ali Ismaelsaid:
Dear blog admins,
I regret to share with you that many of my friends whom I referred to SyriaComment.com in the past, wrote and called me today, all to tell me that they are infuriated about the low level SyriaComment.com has stooped to!!
They all expressed to me that their original idea of SyriaComment.com was a “think-tank-like” blog which is an incubator of positive ideas and solutions for problems, and now it has just become a “trash dumpster” for Syrian regime haters, to put it as one of them described!!!! Believe me, four of my friends called me by telephone today to tell me that they will not read/contribute to this blog again!! This is so sad and counter productive!!!
SyriaComment.com, like the Syrian regime opposition, is losing the people on the ground, in Syria I mean, just to gain a fistful of bigoted sectarian regime haters, who want nothing other than doom and gloom – harbingers of evil and destruction out of hate, and only hate.
I, too, will not read the blog anymore!!”
Hope your blog doesn’t go the same root.
Posted by anonymous | April 21, 2011, 3:30 amI take that as non compliance.Don’t bite my arm off, I was seriously asking for an explanation.
I guess the kingdom conundrum will never be solved and I shall continue swimming through the murky waters of hypocrisy.
P.S. Are you the one that carries the Saudi flag during M14 demonstrations? 🙂
Posted by Maverick | April 21, 2011, 3:36 amhttp://www.al-akhbar.com/node/10545
QN,
Have you had the chance to read the above by Amir Muhsin? A quite different approach totally avoiding foregrounding of sectarianism, by looking at the close relationship between the bourgeois class and the regime that serves it today and has done so since Asad’s corrective movement. How convinced are you by such analysis? What role for sectarianism within it?
Worth remembering the Damascus branch of the MB didn’t do anything in Hama 1982. I wonder what the case it now.
Thanks for the continuing extremely useful commentary!
Posted by sk | April 21, 2011, 4:53 am“The US has the same problem…”
On what do you base this? The US is not tribal, and nothing is kept in check in the US. Racism is something else, and not applicable to this discussion on Syria.
…
Define secterianism! I believe in order to properly answer the question whether or not Syria is sectarian one would need to define what secterianism actually is. Otherwise people will answer that question using their own definition, which inevitably will lead to miscommunication.
Posted by Pas Cool | April 21, 2011, 5:13 amSectarianism, like beauty, is more often than not in the eye of the beholder. One can interpret a situation as ‘sectarian’ and there may be some elements in it that are related to tension between sects; but the underlying causes and drivers may be totally secular.
There are three ways of looking at it:
1, As a perspective related to the observer who seen sectarianism everywhere.
2, As a reality on the ground – where tensions are real and incidents have sectarian dimensions
3, in relation to the political system and how it deals with divisions and wether it increases or decreases sectarian tensions.
There are so many myths that would fall just by distinguishing between these three points.
In Syria for example:
– Is the regime really Alawi?
– Is the system ‘secular’?
Similar questions for Lebanon and for Iraq.
Analysts on Iraq emphasised sectarian divisions, whereas intra-sectarian divisions were as important. In the end are these not legitimate political divisions in which sect plays a part?
In Lebanon, the system is ‘confessional’ or sectarian. But the reality on the ground is a division which is deeply political between two very legitimate world views which divide every ‘sect’, every community and even every family. It is the beholder who chooses to give it a label of sectarian, that March 8 are ‘Shiaa’ or Shiaa means Hizballah. The Christians are ‘divided’? who said they have to be united in the first place? because they are Christian they have to be united, so the sectarian glasses do not fit with reality and we conclude that they are divided.
When politicians play with the electoral law to gerrymander the result, is that sectarian?
Is power-sharing sectarian? maybe such a system has allowed for political divisions to become more significant.
Going back to Syria – There is a network that dominates which has an interest in perpetuating the system. It is too simple to say that this is a Alawite dominance, there is hegemony by a network of a family that happens to be Allawite and has coopted many people from all other sects – Sunnis, Christians, Ismailis, Druze, etc.. etc..
The tautology of the argument is the following: A society that is composed to many sects cannot have democracy because of the sectarian divisions – a ‘secular’dictatorship would put the lid on it. But the other side of that coin is that this same society would not contain all these sects in the fist place had they not been able to coexist all that time.
The Turkish model of secularism is also that Attaturk, in order to have a secular and cohesive society, had to get rid of the Armenians, the Greeks, the Assyrians, the Arabs and the Kurds.
I want to suggest that the present ‘secular’ regime in Syria is likely to exacerbate sectarian tensions whereas a democratic power-sharing arrangement, similar to the ones in Lebanon and the one evolving in Iraq, would decrease such tensions.
Posted by Nadim Shehadi | April 21, 2011, 6:48 amLiad Porat (Brandeis and Haifa Uni) did his PhD on the struggle between the Ikhwan and the regimes in Egypt and Syria. A recent paper by him: http://www.brandeis.edu/crown/publications/meb/MEB47.pdf
Posted by Bart Hesseling | April 21, 2011, 6:51 amThank you Bart.
Posted by Qifa Nabki | April 21, 2011, 7:52 amExcellent intervention, Nadim.
Posted by Qifa Nabki | April 21, 2011, 7:56 amAnon
That comment argues that Syria Comment is not pro-regime ENOUGH, which runs against your argument that it is too pro-regime.
Posted by Qifa Nabki | April 21, 2011, 7:58 amThanks SK, will check it out.
Posted by Qifa Nabki | April 21, 2011, 7:59 amNadim Shehadi said:
I want to suggest that the present ‘secular’ regime in Syria is likely to exacerbate sectarian tensions whereas a democratic power-sharing arrangement, similar to the ones in Lebanon and the one evolving in Iraq, would decrease such tensions.
Yes the tensions in Lebanon and Iraq are low! What are you smoking? Lebanon and Iraq are the last models that Syrians should even contemplate.
Posted by Pessoptimistic | April 21, 2011, 7:59 amQN#23
Get with the program. Anon#15 is not about JL.
He’s simply pleading with you as site-admin to not let your forum devolve into a Saudi bash-fest.
The kitchen got a little too hot for him.
Posted by Gabriel | April 21, 2011, 9:05 amNadim#19
I had to read your post multiple times. I still don’t understand the gist of your argument.
In my view, you’re splitting hairs.
Is the Regime in Syria “Alawi”. Or is Syria “secular”. Or is it just a Mafioso family coopting Alawis and Xians.
Ditto Turkey.
Who ever said Turkey was secular? Ever. Just because Ataturk set up some “secular” institutions? Secularism is not a political instituion. It is a state of being. The population of a country have to think “secular” for the country to be secular.
What you have in Syria and in Turkey are fake artificial secularism. They will collapse like a house a cards, each in their own time, until such time that the populations themselves transform and evolve.
Posted by Gabriel | April 21, 2011, 9:45 amI think I’ll have to disagree with Nadim’s examples of the Lebanese and Iraqi systems as ways of decreasing sectarian tensions.
Also, while there may be some sort of objective difference between what’s “really” sectarian and what’s perceived as being sectarian, but I would argue that it’s the perception that counts. If a Sunni perceives his Alawi neighbor as being part of the “Alawi regime,” then this can result in sectarian violence. Likewise, if an average Alawi feels some sense of belonging to the “Alawi system” even if he gets absolutely no benefits from it, he may be willing to fight for it.
How many poor Christians who weren’t really getting much out of the status quo still joined the Phalangists to fight in the civil war?
In the end, I think sectarianism is as much about perception as it is about reality, which would explain sectarian bonds seem so much stronger than class bonds in Lebanon. I haven’t spent enough time in Syria to know how much this applies there, but my feeling is that while the Assad regimes have given the impression of a creating a more national, Syrian identity, the threat of sectarian conflict is nonetheless very real.s
Posted by sean | April 21, 2011, 10:13 amThe Word Won’t Go Away
Today’s Quiz Question:
Was the following demonstrator “sectarian”? Why or why not?
http://www.danielpipes.org/9700/mohammed-bouazizi-historical-figure
Posted by Akbar Palace | April 21, 2011, 10:13 amPlease avoid all the typos in that last post. It’s been a long day, and I’m exhausted.
Posted by sean | April 21, 2011, 10:15 amIgnore, even.
Posted by sean | April 21, 2011, 10:21 amBeverly Hills firm charged with human trafficking. Surprise, surprise, Global Horizons Manpower is owned by Mordechai Orian, a native of [drum roll please] . . . ISRAEL!
Israeli intellectuals, which means no one in the present government, back Palestinian state. 47 sign petition.
Anon is an ordinary Sunni sectarian bigot par excellence, shortsighted, with deeply ingrained hate for the Shia. His pretentious bigoted persona is flawed wall to wall, his daily rants are simply used to perpetuate hate for the Shia wherever they are. He is an ordinary Wahhabi mouth piece.
Posted by HK | April 21, 2011, 10:35 amAnon
Here’s a little blast from the past for you. Josh Landis is laudatory of the Syrian opposition in this piece from 2006, calling Bayanuni “moderate” and savvy:
http://faculty-staff.ou.edu/L/Joshua.M.Landis-1/syriablog/2006/03/bayanouni-khaddam-link-up-_114264946582158617.htm
He doesn’t French kiss any Saudis while he’s at it, and maybe that’s a dealbreaker for you, but I thought you’d find it interesting. 😉
Posted by Qifa Nabki | April 21, 2011, 10:36 amUp until now there were no wikileaks from Israeli sources. That seems to about to change. The first one just came out, and it involves Assad, Syria, Iran and HA,
http://www.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/041E8703-A6B8-44B8-A108-1C80C9A4E247.htm?GoogleStatID=9
Pas Cool asked for the definition of Sectarianism. Historically, it was a system of administering minorities with confessional associations by the ruling Ottomans up until they left. Nothing so far seems to have been able to replace it to the satisfaction of all those who were or are still concerned. It affected mostly the inhabitants of the fertile crescent. but it also had effects on the north africans to various degrees.
Qifa,
It seems that we have such a small kid here who constantly keeps looking for baby-sitting and attention from ‘daddy’ and ‘mommy’. I noticed that anytime you address me, he will have to cry and make his case heard. He may be a type of kid who cannot tolerate ‘neglect’. If you need to address me please just refer to the number of the comment and not to my monikor. That is just a thought that came to my mind, and a little contribution from my end, in order to avoid his ‘cries’.
Maverick,
“…I was seriously asking for an explanation…”
Here is as serious an answer as you can get. The Egyptian people and the Tunisians made themselvs clear. They spoke clearly and they do not want their regimes. The Syrians increasingly are expresing the same sentiment.
The people of Saudi Arabia have not expressed any such sentiments.
In the meantime please continue with your samba exercises.
Posted by anonymous | April 21, 2011, 10:47 amHow are things going in Tunisia or Egypt? We don’t know. Syria? There, the nepotistic criminal Mafia leaders are killing people, and neither Al- Jazeera nor the US State Department seem to care… Bahrain? The kingdom is on the brink of outlawing its Shia opposition, and is sending thugs house–to-house to roust them out. The failure of the revolutions in the Middle East is not the fault of all the well-wishers. It isn’t really the fault of the secular/progressive youths, the rock throwers, the Islamists or the feeble boastful rebels in Libya with their bulging ammo belts. The fault lies in the fact that there was never a second Arab Awakening. It was never bounded by ideas, not even the democratic-Islamic ones that we should embrace. Sometimes riots produce successful revolutions, witness the Boston Tea Party in 1770 or the bread riots before the French Revolution. But rebellion without ideas is like mortar without bricks – just a bunch of grey crap….
When the French reach out… to the British/American “Islamists”….
News items such as this confirm that we are definitely in the beginning of the “end game,” the period of turmoil when the “gloves (really) come off” and expediency becomes more important to the fascist Zionist global regimes than maintaining the image of benevolence. The American war against the world began when Reagan’s plan to seize control of the world got underway with the first fabricated “Islamists” in Afghanistan, calling his mujahedeen “Freedom Fighters,” in the great tradition of American anti-colonialists. The plan for global conquest then entered the next phase, after the fall of the Soviets, and expediency demanded that Western interests implement a state of “plausible deniability,” where it appeared that Americans had separated themselves from their “Islamist” creation….
Now the great mind-twisters have determined that the “Islamists” are to regain their status as “freedom fighters,” as they come out of the shadows and openly serve Imperial plans. If even the French feel safe enough to jump on the “Islamist” bandwagon, then it would appear the end is closer than we realize. The great apparent contradiction seen in the new ploy of waging war against “al-Qaeda”-related groups in Afghanistan and Pakistan, while supporting other al-Qaeda related groups in Africa, is all the truth we need to expose the American/Israeli state terrorism and the Infamous White House Murder INC, in the Levant and Worldwide…. The problem arises in looking for allies against the great lying, mass-murdering tyranny. As it is, we stand alone against the greatest, most subtle form of evil ever to plague mankind.
The great question is–how do we use the American need to maintain the mask of benevolence to our greatest advantage, in the remaining time frame, before they bring the hammer down full-force? After they are no longer restrained by the need to preserve the humanitarian image, there will be no other recourse but meting violence with violence. Motivating the Mindless–is it even possible?
Posted by HK | April 21, 2011, 10:52 amQifa 33,
Thanks for the link to that Landis post. I read it all and do not see how relevant that post is to today’s events.
That was an old post and it should be placed in the context of the events at the time. Even Bayanouni is no longer around. By the way you probably meant Bayanouni does not french kiss the Saudis and not Landis. Because it was Bayanouni speaking not Landis.
If you found that comment I posted in 15 complaining about Landis being not PRO REGIME enough, then here is another one from an old timer who seems to have been the most eloquent of all SC die-hards,
“51. Off the Wallsaid:
WD
I posted a long response. But after seeing the kinds of posts dominating SC in the 30 minutes it took me to write my response, I decided to delete its content and replace it with this post.
I think I’ll take my pebbles and play somewhere else.”
The poor guy just couldn’t take it any longer just like Zubaida.
Posted by anonymous | April 21, 2011, 11:20 amManny, Moe, and Jack
HK’s favorite Human Rights Abusers:
Posted by Akbar Palace | April 21, 2011, 11:21 amHello again,
Pessoptimist: Tensions in Lebanon and Iraq are indeed high, but why would you call this tension sectarian? Especially in Lebanon.
Gabriel and Sean: I think you understand me very well – it is a matter of perception. Lebanon especially may be in a ‘post-sectarian’ moment but we do not perceive it.
Anonymous: It is in fact a system of power-sharing that is meant to give security to minorities and thus decrease sectarian tension. Its origin predates even the Ottomans and this means that it is a deeply rooted system that is is tune with the culture of coexistence and compromise in the region.
Even the 16 civil war, How much of it was really sectarian? Unless you label it intra-sectarian – think of the war of the camps, the Amal Hizballah war, the inter Lebanese Forces battles and the Aoun-LF war in 88-89.
The fact that some political parties have hegemony and try to highjack a whole community is a matter of governance, electoral law and practice.
Posted by Nadim Shehadi | April 21, 2011, 11:40 amWhat I mean is that someone like Nasrallah is a little dictator over his community someone like Aoun is trying to be and Hariri just realized that he is better off not to be one whereas Junblat has lost his grip, maybe forever.
Posted by Nadim Shehadi | April 21, 2011, 11:47 amI can relate to what Nadim is saying, and initially agree, without having probed it further.
Syria today is akin to Iraq during Saddam. Is that what you are saying Nadim? The power sharing formula à la Iraq post Saddam and as can be seen in Lebanon today would lower sectarian tensions. The Alawite dominated regime draws its legitimacy partly from the fact that they can uphold the status quo in the country, that is, keep religion away from government institutions. There is a vast number of people in Syria who are afraid of an islamist takeover, so one could say that the thugs who arouse sectarian feelings in Syria are doing the regime’s bidding by playing the sectarian card – the one thing that surely would keep most Syrians away from the street.
There is in Syria a genuine fear of this “boogeyman” (a repeat of the early 80s) and thus side with the regime against anything that would appear sectarian. State media in Syria plays a lot along these lines.
Unfortunately, I believe, it is fear of sectarianism that will lead people to think along these lines. As Sean put it, it is the perception just as much as the reality, which I see as more or less the same as point 1 and 2 of Nadim. All it takes is a few bombs here and some attacks there targeting religious institutions. This way, the militant few can control the many.
The answer? I hope the durable answer is a secular democratic society, that is, no power sharing formula à la Lebanon, no enforced secularism à la Syria and no society where different religious sects work according to their own family law. But getting there is ridden with sectarian potholes, in turn guarded by political motives.
So yes, things in Syria can surely become just as sectarian as in Iraq and Lebanon. But, I also believe that the demonstrations in Syria are more based on class and lack of democratic freedom than anything sectarian, but there are forces at play to label it sectarian.
Posted by Pas Cool | April 21, 2011, 12:03 pmNadim,
Thanks for your input. Yes, the system predates the Ottomans, and you are right it is deeply rooted. That is also why coexistence and compromise ranks so high in the culture. This is the only way to maintain any form of civility without descending down to outright chaos and complete breakdown.
As for the Lebanese war it started non-sectarian with sectarian undertones and ended up a full-fledged sectarian war with the country divided for a long time along sectarian borders. This is what I meant in my commnet about Syria when I said every soul will eventually follow its herd if war breaks out. It is the natural tendency in the region, and that is also because of the deep roots of sectarianism.
But I disagree with your observation that Lebanon is in post-sectarian period. Nothing indicates that people and/or politicians are willing or even capable of shedding the bonds of sectarianism, even though you hear voices here and there and complaints about its negatives and drawbacks. Even the Amal/HA wars which I witnesses were about the control of the sect and nothing else. The combatants understand full well this is their way to the anals of power. It is that simple. That is what you said more or less in your comment #39.
Same observations apply on Iraq. I do not see any differnce between the Lebanon and the Iraq post invasion.
Posted by anonymous | April 21, 2011, 12:10 pmThere light switch on what makes humanity tick has definitely been turned on.
Posted by R2D2 | April 21, 2011, 2:44 pmThe light switch on what makes humanity tick has definitely been turned on.
Posted by R2D2 | April 21, 2011, 2:44 pmAnonymous, in the spirit of coexistence and compromise :-), lets agree to differ in definition more than in substance.
Why cannot two parties disagree and enter into conflict without having the lable of sectarian slapped on them. Amal and Hizballah have different political visions, this was clearly demonstrated in the latest Wikileaks. If they were two parties associated with different sects you would definitely have called it a sectarian conflict. Also, the fact that they are associated with the same sect, in your view, makes it also sectarian because it is about the control of the sect.
This is the perfect example of sectarianism being in the eye of the beholder, it becomes like original sin, you are sectarian if you agree, if you disagree, if you fight, if your interaction is with the same sect and if it is with a different sect.
So the Lebanese become essentially sectarian, whatever they do? Maybe it is the beholder that gives it that label and it then looses its value. There is such a thing as sectarianism and it is similar to racism or discrimination, it is a serious matter. But seeing it as an essential characteristic of a whole population no matter what their race,religion, horoscope, age, gender, political affiliation is sectarianism again in the eye of the beholder.
Applying this to Syria is even more cynical or I would even say evil. The argument is that the Syrians are diverse so therefore they are sectarian and therefore they should not be allowed to have any opinions or freedom because being sectarian they will turn it into a sectarian civil war.
Thank you very much but I do not subscribe to this. Diversity is an asset, a diverse society deserves freedom and it suits it even more to have it.
Posted by Nadim Shehadi | April 21, 2011, 2:54 pmGod provides !
I am just a salesman.
Posted by R2D2 | April 21, 2011, 3:06 pmIt’s printed on the United States currency isn’t it?
“In God we trust”
Really !!? I mean … really??
Like in what the Iranian regime want you trust in as a currency?
There are mental patients in charge of this world.
Posted by R2D2 | April 21, 2011, 3:29 pmNadim,
Your last post begs the very simple question. What is the first criterion as a potential member of either amal or HA you need to have? I am not picking on these two in particular.
You should know the answer.
The second question is what political program either of these so-called movements have aside from empowerment through the use of sectarian allegiances? None. Therefore both movements are sectarian pure and simple. The perceived differences also fall in the same category as who will control the sect. This has been going on since the mid eighties and it will continue for quite sometime. There is nothing in such differences that would appeal to wider ‘national’ audience if such audience really exist.
You can use whatever definition you want and play on words, but the truth of the matter is this is exactly what we have, a sectarian population by in large willing to be used for that purpose.
The most obvious and recent example of sectarianism (or the eventuality of each soul following its own herd in the times of crisis) is what we saw not long ago, and the way in which a so-called ‘enlightened’ minister was made to resign and bring down the government. I am talking here about the resignation of State Minister Adnan Sayyed Hussein. Not even a plea from the President would delay the tendering of his resignation because the orders have been issued from the Wali ul-Amr and that is ALL that matters. And we are talking here about the cream of the crop.
So please, let’s continue to differ until either is proven wrong.
I did not say the Syrian population is sectarian at this point in time. But does it have the potential? It sure does. Otherwise the regime would not be desperately stoking the fears of sectarianism in order to buy its survival.
I said above this is not peculiar to one particular sect in Lebanon. Similar examples can be brought forward from Druze, Christian or Sunni perspectives.
Yes Mr. Shehadi, the Lebanese are sectarian and so are the Iraqis. Will the Syrians follow the same path? Time will tell. But my conviction is yes they will, and I outlined my reasoning under the previous post. And here it is again concisely:
If the Syrian regime sows sectarianism, it will harvest sectarianism.
This is exactly what they have been doing since as far as we can remember. It only became very obvious recently because it became an essential tool for regime survival in its propaganda war.
Posted by anonymous | April 21, 2011, 5:11 pminteresting arguments concerning sectarianism.
I just dont think it is simply black or white.
Sectarianism waxes and wanes like mercury in a thermometer. mercury rises depending on the external environment, i.e. heat.
For example, levels of sectarianism differ according to time periods and the environmental context within these periods. sectarianism in Yugoslavia no doubt reached boiling point just before the outbreak of the war. But it was never a constant.
Same would apply to the Lebanese civil war which, arguably, was initially based on ideologies/power sharing/political identity. Sectarian was a by product not an instigator.
yes, political parties in Lebanon are mostly homogeneous, but that does not necessarily mean sectarian.
I do, however believe sectarianism is at most dangerous levels when higher authorities stoke the fires to further their selfish interests,history is ripe with examples, and in this context, the Syrian sectarianism issue is overblown and over analysed. We would be genuinely misguided and belligerent to believe in the fallacy that ” In extremely sectarian populations, an iron fist rule is necessary to keep a lid on things.”
Posted by Maverick | April 21, 2011, 6:01 pmI have just watched the bit in blogging heads with Joshua Landis and Ammar Abdulhamid. Josh is a very clever interviewer, he lays many traps to Ammar and Ammar falls into them. He made him admit to ‘syrian exceptionalism’ seemlessly.
Anonymous, we do not have to wait till one of us is proven right or wrong, we are right or wrong now. Of course the answer to your question is that to be a member of Amal or Hizballah you are likely to be a Shiaa. So Amal and Hizballah are two sectarian parties who have their differences but have colluded to maintain hegemony and highjack the community. This does not mean that all the Shiaa in Lebanon are sectarian and are members of either HA or Amal. A typical family lunch in a Shia family is as likely to have a member of the communist party, the baath party, an Arab Nationalist,or even a supporter of Kamel el Assaad or any combination of the above. Amal and Hizballah represent the Shiaa as much as the Baath Party and the Assad family represent Syria.
Now you can go into the dynamics of how the hegemony was achieved, a combination of assassinations of communist party members, coercion, bribery, monopoly of services, fear and gerymandering elections.
What this does not mean, at all, and I insist, is that all the community are either with Amal or with Hizballah and that they are all ‘sectarian’. I can introduce you to Armenian orthodox supporters of Hizballah too and there is nothing wrong with that.
Tayyib Bikaffi Nabki now 🙂
Posted by Nadim Shehadi | April 21, 2011, 6:06 pmI think it is pretty ridiculous to sit around and argue about whether Lebanon is or isn’t sectarian. It is NOT in the eye of the beholder. Lebanon is CLEARLY a sectarian society and has always been so. This is obvious not only in the political establishment, the “system”, but also in day to day life.
Compare, for instance, to France. I don’t see parties and ideologies being based on sect. There is no “Catholic party” or “Protestant Party”. Both the socialist party and the UDP (or whatever it’s called now) have what for statistical purposes, one could call “even representation” among various religions and sects. Not so in Lebanon.
Is that to say that there are no sectarian issues in France? Surely there are. Specially when it comes to Islam. But there is a big difference in the way that ISSUE is sectarian, versus the population itself being sectarian.
This is not the case in Lebanon, where people will often deduce your political affiliation based on sect, and so on.
So let’s stop this charade of trying to hide behind pretty words and “eye of the beholder” claptrap.
Posted by Bad Vilbel | April 21, 2011, 7:05 pmI agree with Nadim.
It would be helpful to clarify what we mean by “sectarianism” first of all. Here’s something I’ve cobbled together with the help of the intertubes:
“Sectarianism can be defined as bigotry, discrimination or hatred arising from attaching importance to perceived differences between members of different religious sects.”
The question that we are debating is NOT whether this phenomenon exists in Syria (or Lebanon or Iraq, for that matter). It surely does, just as it does all around the world. (I remember evangelicals in Cyprus calling the Greek Orthodox “idol-worshippers”…)
Rather, the relevant question is this: Is sectarianism the primary engine of identity, conflict, and politics, or is it just one of many things that impact the ways in which these societies organize themselves?
In the Lebanese case, it does seem to me that the essence of politics is generally about your standard, run-of-the-mill concerns: getting and spending; cultivating and consolidating a constituent base; courting sponsorship, etc. Pandering to sectarian allegiances and sympathies seems to me to be more a tool of politics than a primary driver of it, at least in Lebanon. It can be a tremendously powerful tool, but as Nadim points out, characterizing an entire society or political system like Lebanon’s as “sectarian” makes it very difficult to explain so many of its particularities.
Good debate.
Posted by Qifa Nabki | April 21, 2011, 7:28 pmQN – I would like to add to that one of the fundamental questions is whether a power-sharing arrangement- or what we call in Lebanon the Confessional System – increases or decreases such sectarianism. Since this is primarily about Syria – would Post Assad Syria eventually have a powersharing arrangement?
Posted by Nadim Shehadi | April 21, 2011, 7:47 pmQN,
I’m gonna have to disagree with your assessment. Politics in Lebanon is not about “run of the mill concerns”. If it was, we’d be voting for/against platforms of taxation, infrastructure, corruption, public welfare and other such things, as they do in Europe or the USA.
The “issues” that define politics in Lebanon are all but “run of the mill”. They involve things like rule of law (as a given), the state’s role being coopted by this or that sect (this is sectarianism par excellence) and the issues of Israel and Syria and Iran and Saudi Arabia.
Hell, look at the comments on your own blog. I’d say 90% of the comments in the last 2 days involve the words “Salafis”, “Shia”, “Christians” (not to mention the ever-present “Zionists”) and so on. How is that NOT sectarian?
The day our discourse sounds more like that in the USA, with the keywords being “Taxes” or “Healthcare” or “Welfare” or “jobs”, then you can tell me about “run of the mill”.
Posted by Bad Vilbel | April 21, 2011, 8:13 pmI agree with both Maverick and BV. I still believe Nadim is hiding behind words. In essence he is putting forward the assumption that a sect is somehow equivalent to a political party. This assumption cannot be sustained by any argument or any reasoning whatsoever.
Lebanon is a sectarian country by its raison d’être. This was and perhaps still is what the Lebanese prided themselves for as being the holders of the ‘beacon’ of Co-existence to the region and some die-hard Lebanese even claimed it to be to the whole world at sometime. One of Lebanon’s famous Patriarchs used to continuously repeat that phrase. This has now become a big question mark.
QN, please where did you get that definition for sectarianism? This is obviously a very bad and invalid definition.
Nadim and I probably agreed on only this part of the exchange which is the definition of sectarianism. Please see comment 34 and also 38 in which Nadim is more or less concurring, and even providing correctly deeper historical roots to times predating the Ottomans.
I am also saying that the people of the Fertile Crescent have not yet been able to replace this system to the satisfaction of all who were or are still impacted by it.
QN, despite its sad state in the world we live in at the moment, sectarianism was responsible for the preservation of the minorities that continue to exist in the Middle East today. Had it not been for this system we would probably have experienced ‘Inquisitions’ similar to those that plagued Europe in the middle Ages, and perhaps you wouldn’t see the Middle East as diverse as it is today.
Your relevant question, I believe, has been answered by both Maverick and me. Sectarianism becomes the primary engine for identity, conflict and politics in times of crisis perceived by the communities as existential. At other times, your last paragraph is completely valid.
Posted by anonymous | April 21, 2011, 8:25 pmAs soon as a coin in the coffer rings…
… A soul from purgatory springs
Imagine a world without Martin Luther. A world without the Reformation. Were the European Wars of Religion not “Sectarian” conflicts? Horrible no doubt in their time, with many people dead. But in retrospect, didn’t Catholicism itself reform?
Now the Catholic church goes around apologizing for every Tom Dick and Harry.
My Daddy… Ooops, I mean QN, produced the following definition of “Sectarianism”.
“Sectarianism can be defined as bigotry, discrimination or hatred arising from attaching importance to perceived differences between members of different religious sects.”
Reading it, I’d think “sectarianism” was some sort of terminal disease. Hardly.
Sects, Sectarianism, etc… are the cultural mutations that create diversity that in the end we celebrate. The issue is not “sectarianism”. It’s how sectarianism is managed.
QN gives an example from Cyprus:
(I remember evangelicals in Cyprus calling the Greek Orthodox “idol-worshippers”…)
I’d suggest being called an Idol-Worshiper ought to be worn as a badge of honor. Had the Greek Orthodox not thought of themselves as Idol-Worshipers at one point in their history, you would not have had the Iconoclastic period.
But so what if they were Idol-Worshipers.
There is no reason to re-invent the wheel. The Europeans came up with a working model. Laicite. Secularism. Separation of State and Place to Worship your particular Idol.
Keep your religion at home and in your place of worship. And in the public realm share what is common with the rest of humanity- economics, social policy, environmental policies, investment, etc.
Then the problem goes away. And we wouldn’t have people arguing about the correct definition of “Sectarianism”.
Posted by Gabriel | April 21, 2011, 9:30 pmBV
Hell, look at the comments on your own blog. I’d say 90% of the comments in the last 2 days involve the words “Salafis”, “Shia”, “Christians” (not to mention the ever-present “Zionists”) and so on. How is that NOT sectarian?
About the only I can think of eradicating discourse on “Christians” and “Shia” and “Salafis” and “Sunnis”, and I’ll throw in “Jews” and “Goyim”, is to eradicate all those groups. Then they can’t self-reference themselves or be referred to, and you wouldn’t have to worry about troubling yourself hearing those terms!
Posted by Gabriel | April 21, 2011, 9:42 pmLa Ilah illa Allah.
Had it not been for this system we would probably have experienced ‘Inquisitions’ similar to those that plagued Europe in the middle Ages, and perhaps you wouldn’t see the Middle East as diverse as it is today.
Who knew? My mommy (she’s a terrible mommy, she keeps trying to throw me into a freezer!) really digs the whole diversity thing!
Well thank Goodness for Middle Eastern Sectarianism which kept alive our diversity.
Such a shame we couldn’t stop the lovely Saudi Inquisition destroying its Ottoman Heritage!
Posted by Gabriel | April 21, 2011, 10:03 pmJust got around to watching that Q&A session JL had with Ammar. Excellent interview, and I found Ammar handled things superbly.
Posted by Gabriel | April 21, 2011, 11:16 pmIt’s all in the definition.
whether sectarianism means affiliation or adherence to a certain sect,or, a bigoted attitude towards other sects.
Can the two be separated? Can we use the Andulusian example of co-existence.That is adherence to a sect, and simultaneously living in harmony with other sects.
Or is adherence to a certain sect synonymous with bigoted attitudes towards others.
As Gabriel argued, remove the label “sectarianism” from the top, and the rest will follow.
It is not the people who cultivate sectarianism, but the environment surrounding them.
In the case of Lebanon, since its creation and then the National Pact, power sharing was along sectarian lines, and continued throughout, culminating in the civil war of 75.The Taif accord, even, applied cosmetic fixes to the Lebanese problem but failed to solve the main issue.
There is no doubt sectarianism is a major issue, however , as Nadeem is arguing “characterizing an entire society or political system like Lebanon’s as “sectarian” makes it very difficult to explain so many of its particularities.” It is a by product and not the primary engine of peoples attitudes.
The case study of Maronite/Druze relations in Mount Lebanon is an example of a power struggle that led to sectarianism, not the other way around. The massacres of 1860, started off as a peasant revolt against landlords,which later turned into sectarian violence. The more recent war in the mountains was created from a power struggle to fill in the vacuum the Israelis left behind. We cannot paint a darkened picture from a few blotches on a timeline that would overwhelm the otherwise harmonious co existence of two sects. To throw the blame on sectarianism, ignores the real economic, social and political issues at the core of the problem.
It kinda mirrors Nationalism, but on a micro scale. Can one be Nationalistic and not have bigoted views towards its neighbours?
Posted by Maverick | April 22, 2011, 12:29 amWithout wishing to drag this discussion to 101 level, secularism and liberalism are not necessarily the same thing. Liberalism is separation of church and state, it is more often interpreted as in France, to be the hegemony of the state over ‘the church’ and by that it is meant that there is one church. We are in a situation where you want to separate not one ‘church’ but many churches and whether to give the state hegemony over those many churches while maintaining the separation. Here you would need the state to be totally neutral between these churches. If the state is not ‘neutral’ then it would be associated with the ethos of one or the other of the churches. The ‘confessional’ system in Lebanon is an attempt at total separation of church(es) and state, giving to Caesar what is to Caesar without allowing Caesar to encroach on personal status issues that are regarded by the ‘churches’ as their prerogatives whether under Sharia or Cannon or any variations of the two.
If the solution is to create ‘secular individuals’ then you are in effect saying that we create a new ‘church’ with everybody being uniform in their ideas. You can achieve this also by ethnic cleansing like they did in France and Turkey or by mass conversion of everybody to one sect, like Budhism or even the Baath Party. The point is that you are doing away with diversity and the bottom line is whether you consider diversity to be an asset or an evil. What we are really discussing here is the validity of the Wesphalian assumption of homogenuity within states together with other concepts of sovereignty etc…
But I think this is too much of a diversion from discussing sectarianism in Syria and the excuse that this justifies Baath Party rule because it is ‘secular’.
Many apologies and happy Good Friday.
Posted by Nadim Shehadi | April 22, 2011, 7:01 amPS. the Lebanese phenomenon of self-flaggelation as pennance for the original sin of sectarianism is definitely pathological. It is related to post-war traumas and more recently complicated by post-revolutionary blues. I have been collecting some stuff on this, there are real gems.
Posted by Nadim Shehadi | April 22, 2011, 7:05 amI hope that my absence over the last week or two has not prevented you from remembering why it is that “hebrew” is not spoken in Beirut. Fortunately, The Resistance and its weapons protects Lebanon from invasion by “israel” as well as from the sectarian strife instigated and manufactured by the zionists in Syria.
Posted by dontgetit | April 22, 2011, 9:04 amI dontgetit dontforget wherehaveyoubeen?
Posted by Honest Patriot | April 22, 2011, 11:18 amNadim, “happy Good Friday?”
Come on brudda, do some homework first before such blatantly ignoramus revelation of your faux erudition.
No need to be politically correct here, but you’re better off not saying anything than saying what you said.
Posted by Honest Patriot | April 22, 2011, 11:20 amGabriel @57 your pretense at irony takes away from any validity of your arguments. Come on folks, stay away from using others’ religions’ terms. Capice?
Posted by Honest Patriot | April 22, 2011, 11:22 amEhasni2 over at Syria Comment has, in my opinion, a correct assessment of what is happening in Syria.
The revolt is a class revolt.
Posted by R2D2 | April 22, 2011, 11:33 amNadim #60:
I have no idea what you’re going on about.
Is this the new definition of the term liberalism?
I didn’t realize the French political class excercised Hegemony over the Catholic Church. But it’s an interesting development. Can you expand?
I profess to be a secular individual. I certainly don’t want to institute a new “Church” that peddles my idea for everyone else to subscribe to!
These types of allegations are actually quite offensive.
And maybe France is not a good example, given that it is relatively “religiously” uniform.
But I challenge you this: How many Canadians know what the sect of their prime minister is? The sect of their provincial premieres? The sect of their city mayors?
This notion that secularism can only be achieved by uniformity of religious/political culture.
Posted by Gabriel | April 22, 2011, 11:35 amHP#65
Well I’m glad you find my arguments are valid. Otherwise, you wouldn’t be able to take anything away from them.
On another note. Io no capisco L’italiano! Was the Capisce an attempt at a bullying “Mafioso” undertone.
For the record: There was no “Pretense at Irony”.
It was actually a LOT LOT WORSE! It was downright MOCKERY!
Posted by Gabriel | April 22, 2011, 11:39 amSorry.. incomplete sentance:
This notion that secularism can only be achieved by uniformity of religious/political culture…
… is something that will only come from a highly sectarian culture.
Posted by Gabriel | April 22, 2011, 11:43 amGaby,
Canadians might not know..but Lebanese do. 😀
This is like a broken record that is putting me to sleep. I concur with anyone who thinks the issue of “sectarianism” is being used for fear mongering in Syria and Lebanon. We are past the 40’s when people rarely knew what went on beyond their villages. The days of total ignorance is over. In the fast moving information society people can make up their minds without having to listen to their Mullah or priest or Khakham…I would guess that most Syrians either have relations living in free societies abroad or have been in one.
The empty rhetoric about coexistence blows my mind. I will use the Cnadian example as Gabriel brough it up. There are immigrants more than 170 different countries with most likely hundreds of religious affiliations and denominations and no one cares to have their religious figures parading in public or giving us empty speeches constantly (Nasrallah to launch into another one of his rants soon…).
Let the people decide their own fate. Freedom is not free.
Posted by danny | April 22, 2011, 12:27 pmNadim,
You obviously erred in mixing up liberalism and secularism.
The rest of your last post is completely accurate once you make that correction. There is no hair splitting in it this time.
Your overall argument reflects the real nature of the debate which, in my opinion, is not limited to the Middle East.
You are absolutely right about France. The French themselves more or less admitted your observation. I am not referring here to a recent controversial piece of legislation, but to a more serious attempt by the French State to re-examine the status of minorities in relation to its constitution of the 1920’s in the name of protecting so-called ‘laicism’.
It was very clever on your part to enclose the word church between quotes. Even though you are not saying it explicitly but the analogy is very clear. Secularism has become an ideology, at least according to the French. Hence it has to compete with other Sects, or Religions that are in the end ideologies supported by beliefs held by the people. In this case, France may have to fight the ideological war in order to win ‘converts’ into its preferred state ideology and it just has to compete with the ‘religious zealots’ who are far better equipped and prepared for the battle. The Baath is even a cruder example of the French dilemma.
That is why the AKP in Turkey eventually triumphed over the Kemalists. They went the other route which is more in conformity with the general sentiment of the population. In effect, the AKP’s became the liberals who are facing the monumental task of liberalizing the Kemalist ‘heritage’ by taking Turkey back to its roots.
For those who may think that secularism is alien to the Muslim Religion, you will find yourselves very surprised to know that the concept goes way back to the early days of revelation. In fact it is coined in the Qur’an itself. Later on, through the ages, these ‘secularists’ came to be known as دهريون in Arabic. The proper translation for this term is those who advocate the Temporal Order and in fact deny the Divine Order. So, in a sense they would be brothers with the secular extremists of our time.
Posted by anonymous | April 22, 2011, 12:29 pmOne could make the case that ethnic and religious diverse societies make up for worse functioning nations, at least in economic terms.
“Ethnic Diversity and Economic Development”
http://www.aiecon.org/advanced/suggestedreadings/PDF/sug25.pdf
If true, I’m not sure how to get past that. There is some ammo out there for those who propagate seperating religions and people of different ethnicity into proper nations or perhaps autonomous federations within a nationstate. This is perhaps sectarianism on steroids. However, European history has a remarkable sad sectarian story to tell.
Must the answer be the separation of state from religion? Or can they fuse? And if they can fuse, can people of different religions live in the same state? Under what kind of social contract? Something akin to Lebanon?
Posted by Pas Cool | April 22, 2011, 12:34 pmGaby, just wanted to advise avoidance of misuse of the statement about God, sacred to Muslims. I do think religion has no place in politics and do consider important the respect of religions.
Posted by Honest Patriot | April 22, 2011, 12:38 pmWow. I guess we DO need a 101 lesson.
– Separation of church/state = ONE CHURCH? In France? That’s news to me.
– Lebanese self-flagellation over sectarianism? The large majority of Lebanese do no such thing. On the contrary, the large majority of Lebanese are perfectly happy with sectarianism, or else they’d have long stopped listening to the feudal zaims. Sure, the Lebanese love to complain about everything and blame everything on someone other than themselves. They have absolutely zero ability to own up to their faults and take responsibility for their actions. But “self-flagellation”? No sir. I disagree quite vehemently.
Also What/Where are these gems you speak of?
Posted by Bad Vilbel | April 22, 2011, 12:44 pmOn the Syrian front, there are 25 confirmed protesters killed in various cities.
R2D2,
EHSANI2 is a die-hard SC old timer. He does not want Baath to lose monopoly. That is not going to fly any more
JL uses him every once in a while as a diversion.
While JL stokes the fears of sectarianism, EHSANI2 stokes the fears of class struggle.
That is all there is to it.
PEOPLE WANT THEIR FREEDOM
http://www.nowlebanon.com/NewsArticleDetails.aspx?ID=264019
Posted by anonymous | April 22, 2011, 12:45 pmLa Illah Ila Allah… Al Masee7 Ibn Al-Allah.
It’s “Easter Friday” after all, and I really ought to be out celebrating the Cruci-fiction of Christ. He did, after all, die for my sins.
HP, get your head out of the sand.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7163391.stm
I will respond to our resident Salafi, my mother, when I have a little more time. I have things to rush to.
HP. You enable behaviors when you adopt the line of the religious on what they consider “redlines” for discussions. And you end up with a society like Malaysia.
I know that “respect” might appear a fashionable sentiment. Just don’t get too caught up in it, or you might start losing your bearings.
Posted by Gabriel | April 22, 2011, 12:56 pmYa 7abibi ya Gaby, so, are you one who condones the burning of the Qur’an by the nut pastor in Florida?
It takes knowing true devout Muslims to appreciate what Islam could be just as it takes knowing true devout Christians to appreciate what Christianity could be.
Neither beheadings, nor suicide bombings, nor excommunication, nor burning of books and witches represent religion.
Nor is there any rational justification for mixing religion and state.
However, deliberately using religious expressions and slogans to demean others – explicitly or implicitly, plays precisely into the hands of those who want to use religion to nefarious ends (whether this use is based on true conviction [Osama Bin Laden is a true believer, as is the nutwing pastor in Florida] or on hypocrisy)
I maintain my admonition to avoid mixing such allusions and implicit irony with otherwise reasoned and strong arguments. I say this to all sides.
I don’t think my head is in the sand but rather I suggest that I’m looking into a submarine telescope with the submarine at sea level, thereby seeing a much broader field of view than if one just looks at ground level.
Yes, I’m saying that using the implicit and explicit religious references is shortsighted.
Just like separation of religion and state is a necessary condition for the success of a political system (in my opinion), such separation is important in making a successful argument.
I am NOT saying one cannot criticize behavior by folks who pretend to use religion in justifying negative behavior. I AM saying that attacking them by using irony against their religious sayings and/or beliefs amounts to lowering oneself to their level.
I think you’re much better than that, Gabriel.
Posted by Honest Patriot | April 22, 2011, 1:23 pmThanks for your last input HP. But obviously we’re dealing with a nutcase here. I wonder if you have read this article about the many many benefits of being a frozen iceman while you’re down there at subsea levels,
http://www.trussel.com/prehist/news140.htm
And while in this lonely environment you’re perhaps missing some entertainment, here is some
Happy Easter and enjoy your wild sea exploration adventure. Mockery in equals mockery out, it is that simple. You ain’t seen nothing yet had it not been for constraints of public courtesy.
Posted by anonymous | April 22, 2011, 1:50 pmHP. I had to take time off my bike ride in a cold toronto afternoon to respond!
I posted an article regarding usage of terms deovut people hold sacred to show you the absrudity of yiur point taken to the absurd limit.
You muddied the waters with decapitation and book burnings ans excommunication and and and…
Don’t throw blueberries into my basket of raspberries.
Stick to the point.
To answer your unrelated question: I am a supporter of Freedom of Expression.
Posted by Gabriel | April 22, 2011, 1:54 pmHussain Abdul-Hussain presents his take on Akl’s submission to FP. He blows her out of the water.
http://hussainabdulhussain.blogspot.com/2011/04/how-can-foreign-policy-run.html?spref=fb
Posted by Chris | April 22, 2011, 2:45 pmOK. Biking break time, so I can write a little better as I sip on my latte.
HP:
Since this is actually quite a serious and pertinent discussion, I’d like to pose some serious questions for you to think about. (Don’t get too carried away with my mother’s cheerleading).
Put aside my intent of using the expression: which was to deride Anonymous, I grew up in a Muslim country and I used the expression all the time. Not once did any of my Muslim friends think or tell me it was offensive.
Nor have I ever been told by any of my religious Christian friends that when I use the word “Jesus”, to begin a sentance of complaining about something, that it is offensive given that I am an atheist.
Well that’s almost true, though not entirely so. Once or twice, I did have a devout person advise me that I really should not be using the Lord’s name in vain.
I did ‘try’, perhaps unsuccessfully, to raise the temperature a little with you in my second use of the expression. When I continued the La ilah… Al masee7 ibn allah.
I take it you’re ‘Xian’.
Were you offended. If so, why?
How about when I called it the Crucifiction. Were you offended by that? If so, why? And if not, why not?
I’m curious how you will respond to the above questions.
Posted by Gabriel | April 22, 2011, 2:51 pmHP,
Thanks for a recent list of suggested monikors I may use.
I have decided to use iceman as my monikor.
QN,
I am releasing the monikor anonymous for others who may want to use it. My next comment will be under iceman (A.K.A. anonymous)
Happy Easter to you as well.
Posted by anonymous | April 22, 2011, 3:03 pmFirst iceman (a.k.a. anonymous) on QN. Beware of incoming twisters.
Posted by iceman | April 22, 2011, 3:09 pmIceman, you can be my wingman any time.
Posted by R2D2 | April 22, 2011, 3:17 pmIn light of today’s events in Syria, I don’t think we’ll see a government formed next week.
I wonder when it is that Aoun will open up his trap on what is going on in Syria.
Posted by R2D2 | April 22, 2011, 3:49 pmI also wonder what kind of an about face TV presentation Hassan Nasrallah will give his audience should the Baathist Assad regime fall in Syria.
Posted by R2D2 | April 22, 2011, 4:00 pmAnd before I say goodnight …
Whatever happened to the STL?
Posted by R2D2 | April 22, 2011, 4:31 pmAnd those seven Estonian bikers kidnapped by whom ??
Salafists ?
Posted by R2D2 | April 22, 2011, 4:37 pmGaby, I myself am not offended by any of the expressions you refer to.
We might just agree to disagree.
I took your usage – in that first post I commented on – to be potentially injecting unnecessary religious overtones. My point was that such injections detract rather than reinforce otherwise strong arguments. But I do respect everyone’s right to free speech however misguided and carrying negative consequences it might be 😉
Hats off to you as a biker. I should really take up that hobby. I hear it does wonders to one’s health.
And Happy Easter in advance to you 😉
On Sunday morning we can all say He is Risen.
Posted by Honest Patriot | April 22, 2011, 4:40 pmWhatever happened to the Bush regime’s Osama? Why has his pulse weakened so much throughout these last Obama years and the Arab uprising months?
Posted by R2D2 | April 22, 2011, 4:57 pmWhere is Osama on Iraq by the way ?
Posted by R2D2 | April 22, 2011, 4:59 pmHP:
I’m glad to hear that you personally are not offended. The truth is, nobody ought to be offended. And if someone were offended, enough so to make a raucous about it, then they are the ones with the issues to deal with.
My injection of terms with religious overtones is quite intentional. I don’t do it all the time, except when needed and specifically to certain people. I think when a discussion on “sectarianism” is under way, stretching the limits of the discussion is important. It helps keep the conversation real and focussed, and filter out peoples’ fluff.
Posted by Gabriel | April 22, 2011, 5:09 pmGiven that Easter is right around the corner, and that the Massee7 is about to “qum min bayn al-amwaat”, what better time to resurrect the following comment, made by Yours Truly, QN’s very own crybaby:
I should add: To all devout Christians who may take offense at my colorful use of resurrection to defend secularism (coming in next post)… please accept my sincerest apologies!
Just think! It’s a lot better than being a hypocrite that personally wishes each of you a “Happy Easter”, while at the same time defending a country that won’t allow you wear crosses in public or build churches!
Posted by Gabriel | April 22, 2011, 5:21 pmIt is such a relief that we have in our midsts a theologian par excellence to educate and enlighten us. He goes by the name Anonymous, but will soon be called IceMan. I’m not entirely sure why, he should really just pick Al-Salafi as his QN moniker.
If you’re wondering why I resurrected the very pertinent and entertaining post on Tunisians sailing off to France, it should all be clear now, as all the knots get tied.
So what did we learn today?
Apparently, there exist people who believe that “Secularism” is alien to the “Muslim Religion”. Who those people are is not immediately clear. Secularism and Religion are independent concepts. You can be religious (any religion) and secular at the same time.
So why make the point?
I wrote in the resurrected post, quite cynically, that being an Extremist Secularist is apparently a bad thing.. to be admonished. It’s almost as bad as being an extremist Shia.
What better time to talk about those dastardly “دهريون”
My mother apparently is quite familiar with their history. So much so, she informs us that
in a sense they would be brothers with the secular extremists of our time.
Get it all you Secular Muslims out there?
You are the brothers of the Secular Extremists of our time. Don’t dismay, just think! At least you’re not Shia. And you can count me among your brothers! What better perk can you ask for!
So what’s all this fuss about those دهريون? What exactly are they? True to form, Iceman explains:
The proper translation for this term is those who advocate the Temporal Order and in fact deny the Divine Order.
Alright. You are a secularist if you deny the “Divine Order” (to be explained shortly). And instead, you think about the here and now (your support the “Temporal Order”.).
So Iceman digs the whole “Divine Order”. But we know from experience he’s a little selective on what that means. For instance, he doesn’t see much “divine” in the Order of Wilayet-el-Faqih. I suspect since he was complaining about European Inquisitions, he was not too pleased about the Divine Order of the Catholics either.
So what “Divine Order” does the Iceman support?
We are not sure to date. Saudi Arabia may be a candidate.
Happy Chocolate Hunting Everyone!
Posted by Gabriel | April 22, 2011, 5:47 pmGab,
Amen!
Posted by Maverick | April 22, 2011, 7:09 pmIceman
I love the new moniker. I’m a big Albert Collins (and blues) fan myself, as some of the folks who’ve been around a bit longer can attest.
Posted by Qifa Nabki | April 22, 2011, 7:32 pmspeaking of entertainment,
I couldn’t help notice the coincidence of the monikers. here’s a lil sumth for y’all:
Iceman,
Dont forget, I get the girl.
But if its any consolation, you get 80 virgins in the afterlife
hahaha
sorry dude, I apologize.
Posted by Maverick | April 22, 2011, 7:56 pmQN,
You’re tooooooo generous.
I thought they’re limited to 70.
Posted by iceman | April 22, 2011, 8:21 pmiceman…Good handle. Let’s see you stay cool dude. 😀
Posted by danny | April 22, 2011, 9:25 pm“Miss me Yet?” NewZ
After today’s carnage, I guess the authors of “A Clean Break” don’t seem so stupid afterall.
Posted by Akbar Palace | April 22, 2011, 11:29 pmSyria is boiling. Damascus Maydan (central aquare) has been the scene of much killing on this ‘Great’ Friday, Landis says.
According to him this is ominous, and he explains why in his post. He is even suggesting a ‘fanciful’ Syriana post-Assad outcome by qouting an R. Kaplan analysis.
Very much worthwhile reading including the comment section. There is a video in the comment section of about 7 minutes long showing a real massacre in progress by Bashar’s men. It is very graphic and heart breaking. I just couldn’t post it here.
Posted by iceman | April 23, 2011, 2:20 am“Can anyone recommend some solid reading on the current state of the Syrian Muslim Brotherhood? Who are the experts?”
Thomas Pierret
http://www.uclouvain.be/cps/ucl/doc/espo/documents/Fiche_Pierret.htm
😉
Posted by Scriptio | April 23, 2011, 4:28 amشن (الن شوييه) المدير العام السابق لجهاز المخابرات الخارجية الفرنسي (د ج أس أو) هجوما عنيفا على عائلة آل سعود وعلى نظام الحكم في المملكة العربية السعودية الذي اتهمه بأنه النظام المغذي للعنف وبلد التطرف والتعصب الإسلامي، وليس إيران أو العراق.
وكان (شوييه) يحاضر في ندوة عقدت في مجلس الشيوخ الفرنسي شارك فيها عدة خبراء فرنسيين وأوروبيين وأميركيين تحت عنوان (الشرق الأوسط في الزمن النووي). وكان من بين المحاضرين (خافيير سولانا) الأمين العام السابق لحلف شمال الأطلسي والرئيس السابق للدبلوماسية الأوروبية، وعدد من الدبلوماسيين العرب والأجانب في باريس، كما حضرت وزيرة الخارجية الأميركية السابقة مادلين أولبريت.
وقد شن (شوييه) هجوما عنيفا على المملكة العربية السعودية قائلا: “السعودية هي رمز العنف في العالم الإسلامي وليس إيران ولا العراق”، مضيفا ان “هذا البلد هو البلد الوحيد في العالم الذي يحمل اسم العائلة الحاكمة”. وشبّه مدير جهاز الاستخبارات الخارجية الفرنسية الوضع في السعودية بالوضع في فرنسا عشية الفصل الثاني من العام 1789(سنة الثورة الفرنسية)
واستمر (شوييه) بهجومه على السعودية بالقول: لقد حكمت هذه العائلة منذ العام 1926 واعتمدت على شرعية الأماكن المقدسة وعلى المزايدة في التطرف والتشدد الإسلاميين بحكمها بعد أن قامت بإزاحة الهاشميين أصحاب الشرعية التاريخية في إدارة شؤون الأماكن المقدسة.
واتهم (شوييه) العائلة السعودية بأنها أساس العنف في العالم الإسلامي لأنها اعتمدت على استمرارها في الحكم على منطق التطرف والمزايدة على الآخرين في كل ما هو إسلامي، وهذا من اجل قمع أية حركة معارضة داخلية، وفي مواجهة الآخرين خارجيا مثل إيران أو العراق أيام صدام حسين.
(شوييه) في مداخلته أشار بما يشبه السخرية إلى الدولة السعودية قائلا إنه نظرا لافتقاد العنصر البشري ولعدم وجود بنية صناعية في السعودية اعتمدت العائلة السعودية على دفع الأموال التي تملكها بكثرة في إدارة سياستها، عبر تمويل جمعيات وجماعات في كل أنحاء العالم تحمل فكر التطرف والعنف.
وحدد مدير جهاز الاستخبارات الخارجية الفرنسي السابق السبب الحقيقي لاستقرار السعودية واستقرار حكم العائلة فيها بسبب الاتفاق الذي عقد في العام 1945 بين الملك عبد العزيز آل سعود والرئيس الأميركي روزفلت، والذي ينص على حماية الولايات المتحدة الأميركية للنظام السعودي مقابل التزام من قبل العائلة الحاكمة باستمرار تدفق النفط إلى أميركا.
Posted by HK | April 23, 2011, 5:09 amhttp://uprootedpalestinians.blogspot.com/2011/04/jews-expressing-their-love-for-jesus.html
Posted by HK | April 23, 2011, 5:29 amRussian Forces Kill America’s Pet “Islamist,” in Chechnya, Another Saudi Terrorist…
Russia eliminates one pre-fabricated synthetic terrorist and America’s thuggish Wahhabi friends dutifully supply another. This latest kill replaced the highly romanticized Saudi actor known as “Emir Khattab, who was himself another CIA/Mossad creation… If the Script Calls for Credible “Bad Guys,” Then Invent Some!
Posted by HK | April 23, 2011, 5:48 amI read the above debate about sectarianism with interest. Anonymous iceman won the debate. Any potentially sectarian society will become actually sectarian during a major political redefinition — such as where the state’s identity and emblematics are being redefined or where foundational matters about social status are being redefined — and such sectarianism will happen regardless of whether such redefinitions are themselves sectarian or not.
The civil war in Libya is similar. A key reason why the western Libyans didn’t join in the rebellion started in eastern Libya is they saw eastern identity stuff attached to it. The easterners early on raised some old eastern-associated flag, which was effective in rallying support in the east, and was not intended to be exclusionary against Libyans in the western part of the country, but nevertheless estranged them.
Posted by parvizyi | April 23, 2011, 6:56 amThe pie rule regarding the Canaan region….:)
He who slices the pie should not get to determine which piece they want….
Posted by HK | April 23, 2011, 7:28 amClick to access actes_version_francaise.pdf
http://shadow.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/04/22/bandars_return
Posted by HK | April 23, 2011, 7:35 amشعب البحرين الابي الصامد البطل اسقط قناة الجزيرة وكشف موضوعيتها الزائفة
Iceman is a despicable Sectarian Bigot, rotten at Heart with Deep Hate for the Shia, just because they are Shia. Iceman is a student of the “agent provocateur” Mohamed Salam, the preacher of the Future Wahhabi movement. Period!
Posted by HK | April 23, 2011, 9:44 amThough conflicts are not religious in nature, but many problems can be solved by educating Muslims that “their reference book” quran/kuran was compiled by OSMAN, a senile 80 years old and corrupt 3rd degree friend of Muhammad!
Osman was an exact replica of todays Arab dictators – he appointed his cronies as rulers in various regions who accumulated wealth from rubbing the populations! As a result people sent him representative to negotiate with him but he refrained from resigning – He was removed by force after 3 days – in the process he was killed – killed by a REVOLUTION – among the killers was the son of a 1st degree friend of Muhammad “the son of Abu Bakr”..!
So how Muslims would trust a book compiled by such a dictator who burned the original copies! Who dared to do what a 1st and a 2nd degree friends of Muhammad had refrained from doing!
Posted by Tobzi Harasta | April 23, 2011, 10:08 am109,
Regardless who wrote what, where or by Whom…the Qora’n is worshiped, respected and followed by a Billion and a Half people, who are the faithful followers of that religion and its founder Mohammed [Pbu]. Neither I, or you or anyone else can question such following of the faithful. They have my full respect, whatever they chose to believe, and I think that the Qora’n has a lot of Good to offer to the world, whether you agree with it or not.
Posted by HK | April 23, 2011, 11:08 am“The civil war in Libya is similar. A key reason why the western Libyans didn’t join in the rebellion started in eastern Libya is they saw eastern identity stuff attached to it.”
Why do you assume that? Maybe the key reason us that a state has more control over it’s Capitol and environs than over further off areas. After all, at on point cities west of tripoli were in the hands of protesters.
And now that NATO has inserted itself, maybe there are Libyans who hate the idea of foreign bombardment more than MQ? And that the division is over political points that are not sectarian.
Posted by Lysander | April 23, 2011, 11:09 amIt is not a dispute about reform and the speed of that reform anymore, The opposition has changed that to a war against the Baath party and the president, They do not want equal right to the ballet box, they want to have the only chance and access to the ballet box, it is a military take over .
It is a war that the opposition has declared, the Baath party and the government will not give up after what they saw in Iraq, It is a war till one side wins.
Posted by Norman | April 23, 2011, 11:20 amNorman, seriously, a military takeover? The opposition has declared war?
And who is “they”? “They” do not want equal right to the ballot box? There has not been any equal right to the ballot box for decades. And an Alawite regime would not allow this, would not it be for public pressure, and even then I do not believe it would be equal.
Dictatorships dig their own grave from the moment they assume power, inch by inch.
Posted by Pas Cool | April 23, 2011, 11:38 amDictatorships dig their own grave from the moment they assume power, inch by inch….whether in Syria, Jordan or Saudi Arabia’s thuggish Wahhabi crazies.
As Pakistan recruits mercenaries to oppress helpless and peaceful Bahrainis, Iran protests. In contrast to Riyadh, which seems to be backing itself into a Ziocon counterrevolutionary cul-de-sac, Tehran has multiplying options: not just to resist Saudi military moves but alternatively to take the high road as defender of peaceful democratization by continuing to improve ties with an Egypt that, albeit uncomfortably moderate, has the virtue of a relatively independent stance. Whether Tehran would prefer that to clear-cut leadership of the rejectionist bloc remains to be seen. As Riyadh foments both counterrevolution and blatant, bigoted sectarianism, it also remains to be seen if Tehran will in the end even have a choice….We should replace the neo-con knee jerks with a serious academic workshop to examine American national security interests in the new Mideast….
http://pakpotpourri2.wordpress.com/2011/04/23/khawarij-has-the-destructive-ideology-reincarnated-part-1/
Posted by HK | April 23, 2011, 11:42 amThe opposition should ride president Assad reform agenda to give him the the strength to push multi party law that should be an equalizer and whoever wins wins a call for the fall of the regime is a call for replacing one sect rule with another, let us have election and accept the results.
A revolution will be faced with a revolution, The Baath party was not established by a presidential decree it was established by the intellectuals and teachers of Syria.
Posted by Norman | April 23, 2011, 11:46 amPas Cool,
Actually you should ‘appreciate’ what Norman has just said.
He is a Syrian living in the US. This latest admission by a ‘supporter’ of Assad and Baath must be looked at as an ‘enlightenment’ in this draconian Syrian environment of complete lack of information transparancy, due to government ban on foreign reporters, and government outright fabricated lies of pretending to offer reforms, a promise by the president NOT to shoot on peaceful protesters while sending its thugs to shoot not only on protesters but in some cases on its own armed forces.
Norman is admitting the lies of the government. Thank you Norman. It is a huge shift in the official narrative.
But not all the members of the rubber stamp so-called parliament share the same view as Norman’s,
Another MP by th name Rifai just tendered his resignation as well.
Posted by iceman | April 23, 2011, 12:03 pmSyria is plagued by a lack of functioning institutions as it has been a one party state for so long. Elections are democratic, but not necessarily the way to build a democratic state. Democracy is just as much, probably more, about liberal institutions than it is about elections. Humankind is not born to be a democratic creature. We must instill it, nurture it, and safeguard it.
I do not know what lies ahead for Syria, but I fret the impact of premature elections. Political programs need to be constructed and evaluated by the people before they choose their leaders-to-be. I think everybody would’ve preferred a smooth transition of power, but the regime in Syria overplayed its hand. I just hope they don’t take Lebanon down with’em.
Posted by Pas Cool | April 23, 2011, 12:19 pmWhether you live “outside”, visiting or in USA and look at the U.S. from either perspective …. that Harlan Ullman’s analysis is spot on….
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/Analysis/Outside-View/2011/04/20/Outside-View-America-strikes-out/UPI-68441303293360/
Posted by HK | April 23, 2011, 12:21 pmThe opposition will be wise to be clear that a call for national platform for all sections of Syrian society to establish the multi party system will quill the demonstration and put them on hold so the reform can move forward, cancelling the emmergency law will give softy for the opposition leader to return and participate in the national forum, but clear indication of what will happen if the Syrian government calls for the national forum is needed to move forward as any movement from the government without knowing what will happen next Friday is a waste of time.and will be seen as weakness,
Posted by Norman | April 23, 2011, 12:24 pm9/11 first responders to be screened for terrorist ties by FBI. Republican Clifford Stearnes (Florida, aka Tel Aviv East), shilling for his Mossad/CIA friends to silence 9/11 first responders who “know too much” and “saw too many things.” Stearnes counts his pieces of silver, like Judas and the Assads, on Good Friday….
BLOODY FRIDAY IN SYRIA….: At least 11 15 25 27 30 40 49 60 68 75 90 killed….by Asef Shawkat’s and Maher’s thugs.
Birds of the same feather, flock together, as per the Infamous White House Murder INC, they are ALL in the same league…
Posted by HK | April 23, 2011, 12:32 pmOff Topic …
What is it with Lebanese and fireworks at weddings ?!?
Why does a city, that lives on the brink, have to put its life on pause and prick up its ears every time two overeager Lebanese tie the knot?
Posted by R2D2 | April 23, 2011, 1:45 pmThe Syrian population have no choice but to keep on fighting the criminal Assad Assassins until they achieve their freedom. Freedom is not free, it never was and never will be. You have to pay a price to earn it. If it requires another 20,000 to be killed to achieve freedom, then the Syrians are ready to die. They have learned from history in 1980 that it is worth dying for your freedom, otherwise they would be enslaved for another 40 years, when current A$$-ad passes the presidency to another Hafez…!
The current regime cannot read the writing on the walls and they will bring on their own utter destruction. They think that they can scare people by killing unarmed protesters brutally. They just can not comprehend that the fear factor no longer exists in Syria and that the people will fight, and die to have their dreams a reality for their family, loved ones and kids! You can kill them, but you can never kill a dream that keeps getting passed on from a Syrian Martyr to a living Syrian carrying on the dream! At the end, the Syrian people will destroy the Assad Dynasty of Mafiosi Assassins for hire and by ricochet will smother the Infamous White House Murder INC, in the Levant….
Posted by HK | April 23, 2011, 1:53 pmhttp://www.yalibnan.com/2011/04/23/otv-syria-issues-arrest-warrant-against-mp-sakr/
Posted by R2D2 | April 23, 2011, 1:59 pmNorman,
I think you are debating under duress. You are protecting the butcher and his family’s legacy of murders and atrocities? Why? Why do you think that your people; i.e. Syrians are incapable of running their own lives? Why are you condoning the massacre of innocent civilians?
It is time for you to realize that the end is near. There will be NO reversal. This is not Iran; and all the thuggery and mayhem will be counter productive.
Military takeover? Hah? Who has the military and the militias and the dirty mukhabarat? If you think that the so called reforms might work; then your Bashar should stop being so short sighted. He should meet with the opposition and start transitioning to a civil governance. But you know that the Syrian people will judge him and hang him. The only refuge he can find (for the moment) is Iran. He better polish up his Farsi.
Pas cool;”I just hope they don’t take Lebanon down with’em.”
That depends entirely on HA. If they decide to continue their ill fated “resistance” I can only see a civil war ending it all.
Posted by danny | April 23, 2011, 2:03 pmThe barbaric Assad Regime lives on a mountain of skulls in Syria….
There is a massacre taking place in Syria. The Syrian government is openly engaging in mass murder and terrorism of its own civilians.
Another Saddam or Stalin Shawkat do you think?
90 Syrians killed in Uprising’s Bloodiest Day and hundreds missing all over the country, taken from their homes by Maher’s and Asef Shawkat’s assassins….
Hezbollah will remain neutral and knows that whoever comes after Assad in Syria will have to deal with the same Geostartegic/Geopolitical implications, thus Hezbollah’s position will not change one iota, regardless what the Sectarian Wahhabi thugs will throw around in Lebanon…
Posted by HK | April 23, 2011, 2:55 pmThe RealMurder Inc.
Dictatorships dig their own grave from the moment they assume power, inch by inch….whether in Syria, Jordan or Saudi Arabia’s thuggish Wahhabi crazies.
HK,
Does your list of dictatorships include Iran and Hezbollah? Why or why not?
Birds of a feather, flock together…
http://www.haaretz.com/news/assad-hosts-nasrallah-ahmadinejad-for-3-way-meet-1.263814
Posted by Akbar Palace | April 23, 2011, 3:14 pmHow I love those random thoughts, R2D2.
Posted by Gabriel | April 23, 2011, 3:16 pmAn underground anti-Assad movement will bring Bashar Assad and his assassins down. The accelerating pace of demonstrations will probably prove impossible to withstand. This change will not necessarily benefit Israel. There is no particular reason to think that a different Syrian government will have a different policy toward Israel, Iran, Hamas or Hezbollah. The new Syria will react favorably toward sincere offers of peace that restore Syria’s territory. Nothing else will move them….The Syrian Baath Party is as much Sunni as Alawi…. The relationship with Iran is strategic, not Sectarian…. Alawis are not Shia.
Alawis deify Ali and, seemingly, Christ as well… They cannot be said to accept that Mohammed was the last prophet…
However their doctrines are not well-circulated and have in fact been secret until recently, and I believe if you check, you will find the Baathist regime has appointed or influenced certain Syrian clergy to declare them as within Islam and in such manner as to suggest they are tacitly Muslim Shia….Big efforts of the alawi elements in the Baath over the years have pushed ‘Ulema to say that they are Muslims. They are not…. Perhaps some remember the riots in Damascus years ago that were caused by the provision in the Syrian constitution that requires the President to be a Muslim. As many ‘Ulema and Qadi’s are “for sale’ all over the Islamic world…., Baathist Alawis got away with it up to now….
Posted by HK | April 23, 2011, 3:24 pmI blame the entire Middle East conflict on the Dekanjeh that sold me “explosives” to blow up ant colonies when I was 8 years old.
Posted by R2D2 | April 23, 2011, 3:58 pmLysander,
What do you think of Egyptian MP 3Issam Sultan?
I am really interested in your take. Both Sultan and interviewer are speaking Egyptian dialect, which you said you understand.
Posted by iceman | April 23, 2011, 4:18 pmDanny,
i think that the Syrians can run and manage Syria but whoever wants to run Syria he has to win in the ballet box where everybody has a chance .
Violent change of management will lead only to violent transfer in managements the next time around, Syria and Syrians have the chance now through peaceful reform to transfer Syria to a real secular, modern state where everybody is equal withe the same rights and obligation.
Posted by Norman | April 23, 2011, 5:11 pmNorman,
then you should stop the unnecessary insinuations and allow peaceful protests. NOT firing on people by the armed mukhabarati gangs. Let the people demonstrate and you’ll have 20 million people on the streets shouting away your murderous Bashar and his ilk!
Posted by danny | April 23, 2011, 5:21 pmDanny,
The army and the security services have the right to defend themselves when attacked, hard to believe that anybody will shoot if not attacked.check your sources.
The demonstrators should stay at home and wait for the process to work for a couple of weeks.
Posted by Norman | April 23, 2011, 5:27 pmIce baby ice! “Great” body language by the “trapped” moukawama’s interviewer…I spit on them and their ideology. Clinging to the serpent and trying to justify it? Wallla bravo!
Posted by danny | April 23, 2011, 5:34 pmNorman,
I suggest you stop it here as you are embarrassing yourself with utter nonsense. I suggest a bottle of single malt and maybe watch the Amjad promo on spinning and lying.:D
Posted by danny | April 23, 2011, 5:36 pmAP:
You know what you really ought to do:
Copy this entire thread to use it for future reference.
For example, next time Norm complains when the Israelis level a Palestinian home or a Palestinian…. You can tell him that the Israeli soldiers are honorable just as are the Syrian ones.. And they only shoot to defend. 🙂
Posted by Gabriel | April 23, 2011, 5:57 pmDanny,
You need a lesson in civility.I do not know that it will be enough,
Posted by Norman | April 23, 2011, 7:06 pmDanny,
Actually there is a solution that would satisfy Norman’s ‘concerns’ and save his ‘beloved’ Syria, and he knows it already. Here it is again,
1) Bashar appears on TV.
2) He decrees a maximum of two terms of 4 years each for a President in Syria.
3) He decrees himself interim President and calls for immediate elections within three months of new President, and allows international observers to supervise it.
4) He withdraws all security thugs from the streets, and allows unconditionally the right to peaceful demonstrations.
5) The new President and his new government will be responsible for implementing the sought-after reforms.
The people have the full right to express their complete lack of confidence in the credibility of the current regime.
As to your assertion in 132, here’s an interesting video which may support it, and which surfaced on the net the night of April 16 right after Bashar’s latest speech,
Neither the revolution nor the regime nor anyone else claimed this video. It is a huge demonstration in Damascus reminiscent of scenes from great works of drama. Notice at the beginning you can barely make out what the demonstrators are saying. But pay special attention around minute 2:08 when you can clearly make out the slogan; Suria 7hurra 7hurra bashar ilt3a barra. You can hear it very clearly repeated two or three times. The sound after that is dead and muted, just lights moving endlessly.
Can you guess the purpose behind this?
My own guess is that it was regime-staged mock demonstration to be shown to the world after the speech in order to ‘prove’ how much support Bashar has in Syria and particularly in Damascus. The people knew better however and played the regime’s game to their advantage. After April 16 the regime knew it has FALLEN.
In my opinion the regime is already history. But there will be lots of agony before it come to pass.
Posted by iceman | April 23, 2011, 7:16 pmNorman,
#137
Is this coming from the defender of the murderous regime in Damascus? You people could not recognize civility if it slapped you across your face!
I am sure your buddies in the Syrian mukhabarat are models of civility! Take a chill pill and get ready to jet dude. Your icon’s days are numbered! 😀
Posted by danny | April 23, 2011, 7:25 pmDanny,
(( You people )),! Whom do you think ((WE PEOPLE)).
Posted by Norman | April 23, 2011, 7:34 pmNorman,
You people= Shameless Defenders of the butcher Assad and his family. Don’t you have any feelings about your countrymen? …Or are you on Assad’s family circuit???????
Posted by danny | April 23, 2011, 8:23 pmWe all agree on one thing that “Liberty will not descend upon people; people will have to rise up for Liberty. Assad & his goons will be gone soon & let the democratic process take over.
As for Saudi’s they have invaded Bahrain & no one raises an eye brow; they troops & mercenaries from Pakistan are entering hospitals & killing them. We need to let these people know that they will be accountable for War crimes & justice will be served.
After Libya, Syria & Yemen we have Bahrain, Algeria, and BIG pie Saudi; the rulers are bunch of thugs who have looted the treasury. If you have a royal connection you can do anything!! I will love to see that evil empire fall.
Posted by Dallas Ali | April 23, 2011, 8:44 pmPeople should remember that just because the Syrian government is killing people does not mean it doesn’t deserve praise for helping the Revolution supply The Resistance with the weapons that intimidated the Zionists and prevented “israel” from invading Lebanon today.
Posted by dontgetit | April 23, 2011, 9:02 pmdanny,
You should remember or should have read what happened to Lebanon when some groups thought that they could take over and push the others to the side line.
We Syrians want reform but we do not want that after 100000 dead.as it took place in Lebanon to start from the same point again, Set Aside and quotas.
Posted by Norman | April 23, 2011, 9:12 pmI can sleep better knowing the Ultimate fighter Seyyed hassan nassrallah & the resistance have kept the slimy Zionists at bay.
I get it after all…
Posted by danny | April 23, 2011, 9:14 pmNorman what happened in Lebanon is the Assad family played one side against the other through the years causing thousands of deaths. “You” and I mean YOU and the ASSAD’s butchers have ran your course! Khallas you are over, Get the hell out and let the people live as THEY chose.
Posted by danny | April 23, 2011, 9:17 pmyou are too young to know and too ignorant to read what happened, Syria save the Lebanese from themselves, a disaster in Syria will close the borders of Lebanon to the east and smother Lebanon economically.
Posted by Norman | April 23, 2011, 9:49 pmNorm:
You save the ungrateful Lebs from themselves and look at the thanks you get. They foment discord and strife in your country. That’s the thanks you get!
Next time, you shouldve left the Lebs to simply kill each other. That would have taught Danny not to be too loose with his tongue!
Posted by Gabriel | April 23, 2011, 9:59 pmGabe,
Syria’s Arabic stand and open border policy for all Arabs and the feeling that she has to be the defender of all Arabs is being challenged and will probably make Syria change .
Posted by Norman | April 23, 2011, 10:09 pmFacetiousness aside, the recent developments are positively interesting. No offense to lives lost etc.
Just think, what emerges will put to the test everyone’s biases.
What would a post-assad syria bring?
What will happen to the Lebanese resistance?
What will happen to communal relations in Lebanon?
What is Syria’s true political colors?
Will secularism still prevail in Syria?
What will the Dannys of Lebanon do if the post-Assad order in Syria be no different from the Assad regime?
These are the serious questions worth asking. And worth watching the drama for as it unfolds.
Everything else is nonesense.
Posted by Gabriel | April 23, 2011, 10:27 pmGabe,
corruption will continue with different people, the poor will stay poor and if Syria does not end in civil war it will be a banana republic and back to the sixties and fifties when Syria was influenced by outsiders as Lebanon is today.
Posted by Norman | April 23, 2011, 11:02 pmI hate posting from my. Cell phone, well here goes:
– Gabriel, I’m too lazy to save the good posts. Personally, the biggest hypocrite on this forum is “Kungfu”, aka Qunfuz, aka “Confused”. At least the jihadists here and on SC don’t give a fig about democracy and human rights.
– Professor Josh has a great archive. All one has to do is search his posts, and more often than not, you’ll find him explaining why supporting B is the best course of action for Syria.
– Not a great resume for a ME professor…
Posted by Akbar Palace | April 23, 2011, 11:25 pmNorm:
Your ominous predictions will be put to the test. This forum os a microcosm of the realities of Syria. But we will have to wait it out and see what emerges. You may be right and get to wag the I told you so finger. Or perhaps you are wrong and find that your worries were mental constructs not reflective of reality.
Posted by Gabriel | April 24, 2011, 2:32 am143,
رياح التغيير ستصل إلى السعوديَّة لا محالة. وتقتلع فبارك الفساد والكذب والإرهاب
Posted by HK | April 24, 2011, 5:31 amI agree with HK, this is the elephant in the room, we ain’t seen nuthin till this happens. See the article by Nassim Taleb in the current Foreign Affairs and my comment on the Chatham House website in January http://www.chathamhouse.org.uk/media/comment/nshehadi0111/-/1214/ if the system cannot bend, it will break; and this is why Bashar is finished, through no real fault of his own.
Posted by Nadim Shehadi | April 24, 2011, 5:52 amQN!!!!
You are a STAR!!! AP has quoted Elias…
In the Toronto Star:
“Elias Muhanna, a political analyst at Harvard University, said the protests have crossed a threshold and serious pressure could be building on Assad.
The protest movement has been the gravest challenge to the autocratic regime led by Assad, who inherited power from his father 11 years ago in one of the most rigidly controlled countries in the Middle East.
“It remains to be seen whether this was a tipping point in the struggle between the opposition and the regime,” said Muhanna, author of the Lebanese affairs blog Qifa Nabki. “But one thing is certain: The regime can no longer claim that the demonstrations are a fringe phenomenon.”
http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/979363–syrian-security-forces-fire-on-crowds-killing-120-people-over-2-days?bn=1
Don’t forget us when you are at the peak…Cheers my friend!
Posted by danny | April 24, 2011, 6:12 am#148
“Syria save the Lebanese from themselves”…
Hassan Nassrallah funny enough said the same thing after the May 7th, 2008 “events”.
We don’t need your freaking help. It seems Lebanon & Syria have been on a “Friends with benefits” arrangements; except Lebanon has been the one being screwed constantly.
Norman, I hope the people will get their way and again your butcher shop buddies are all hung by their cojones for their crimes against humanity.
Posted by danny | April 24, 2011, 6:28 amNadim 156,
I suppose that you are alluding to HK at 129.
This is the crux of the matter regardless the outcome in Syria/Assad…
I also happen to agree with the gist of your arguments here and elsewhere…
Posted by HK | April 24, 2011, 7:04 am“Hassan Nassrallah funny enough said the same thing after the May 7th, 2008 “events”.”
Spot on the money!!!
We almost forgot that bunkered “hero” with all the drama surrounding us. Amazing how ‘Lebanese’ hypocricy eventually betrays itself through its own actions!!!
Posted by iceman | April 24, 2011, 7:29 amSayyed Hassan Nasrallah, Head of the Valiant Lebanese resistance of Hezbollah has been chosen as one of the most influential people in the Whole World, regardless the fluffiness, stupidity and mediocrity of his detractors here and elsewhere in the MSM & the Wahhabi Crazies’ Mediums….or the Disinformation Con-Artist Bob BAER….
Posted by HK | April 24, 2011, 7:59 amBRIGHT RESURRECTION OF CHRIST – HOLY PASKHA!
Christ is risen!
Χριστός ἀνέστη!
!המשיח קם
!لمسيح قام
Христос Воскресе!
Le Christ est ressuscité!
Christus is opgestaan!
Christus ist auferstanden!
Cristo ha resucitado!
Cristo ressuscitou!
Christus resurrexit!
Kristo leviĝis!
Posted by HK | April 24, 2011, 9:57 amHK,
HAQAN QAM ,
Posted by Norman | April 24, 2011, 10:15 amdanny, lool.
thx
Posted by Qifa Nabki | April 24, 2011, 10:29 amThe West, Bashar/Mouallem, Israel & the crumbling US Empire, Embrace Saudi Wahhabi Terrorism in Bahrain…
http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Ignoring+plight+Bahrain+Shiites+shames+West/4664237/story.html
Posted by HK | April 24, 2011, 11:11 amAny idea why syrian media is after Lebanese MPs and not the like of Rami Nakhle who are now openly working from Lebanon? It just does not make sense to me … what are the implications for the bilateral relations of the 2 countres if Syrian opposition figures are now overtly supporting/coordinating protests from lebanon?
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/24/world/middleeast/24beirut.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all
thanks
Posted by rm | April 24, 2011, 11:17 amI am also thinking about how strategic from Rami it was to emerge in broad daylight like this? Should he not have remained hidden operating in secrecy? Or everybody knew about it? Can Lebanon officially protect him as a foreigner?
thank/rm
Posted by rm | April 24, 2011, 11:45 amHere’s an analysis which rips apart the Assad regime and provides a deeper insight into what changed in Syria recently as the real causes for the uprising. The author also agrees with QN and many others that the point of no return has been crossed,
And here is a proof from the field. The Syrian Army is in full mobilization mode to do ‘battle’ in order to ‘save’ Syria from itself putting to use its ‘extensive’ experience in ‘saving’ Lebanon from itself. Now, it has rightfully earned the title of the ‘Saviour’ Army.
Posted by iceman | April 24, 2011, 1:04 pmSorry, I pasted the same link twice. The first link should be this,
http://www.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/DEE5AF9E-92C2-473A-B0A5-16E68FC888F7.htm?GoogleStatID=1
Posted by iceman | April 24, 2011, 1:05 pmso powerful, tragic, valient, historical .. who are these people?
علينا أن نعرف ونسجل للتاريخ أيضا أن هؤلاء الذين خرجوا في الأيام الأولى من الانتفاضة، وكانوا بالمئات فقط، خرجوا كشهداء، ولم يخرجوا كمتظاهرين
quoted from iceman link
Posted by rm | April 24, 2011, 1:40 pm
Posted by R2D2 | April 24, 2011, 2:13 pmTo retort to this post …
How “Lebanese” are Lebanese ?
Posted by R2D2 | April 24, 2011, 2:45 pm#172 … maybe more accurately … “How Lebanese is Lebanon ?”
Posted by R2D2 | April 24, 2011, 2:53 pmThe role of CIA, Pentagon and State Department linked foundations in the “nonviolent movements” as they call them…whereas some of them are obviously trained CIA/Mossad Proxy thugs in MENA and Eurasia…. The ones to be followed most closely are the National Endowment for Democracy, the US Institute for Peace, the Albert Einstein Institute, USAID, CARE, the Arlington Institute, Freedom House, the NED-funded Human Rights Watch, the International Republican Institute, and the International Center for “Nonviolent Conflict”….and others… Most of the research into these foundations focuses on their work overseas, particularly their active role in intelligence and in creating “color” revolutions in Eastern Europe and elsewhere…. However , the ICNC also has major influence, via its workshops, literature and documentaries, on progressive organizing in the US….There are reports of a race going on between Syria and Saudi Arabia…. whereby Asef Shawkat and Bandar Bin Sultan are preparing a Coup D’état in BOTH countries….
We certainly live in very interesting times indeed.
Posted by HK | April 24, 2011, 4:00 pmrm, It is possible to find out who the earliest ones were. I have a list compiled by location including names of known martyrs up until April 22. If you look for those from Dera’a, the earliest ones would be among them,
Mostly, they are the youths of Syria. There was at least one 10-year old among them whose skull was literally crushed. And yet our esteemed, mature and ‘exiled’ Syrian patriot Norman continues to beat the drums of war inside his ‘beloved’ Syria, even on this holy Sunday. Unfortunately he is not the only enlightened Syrian ‘exile’ who is doing it. I am sure I have now been added to his list of those who lack civility.
Posted by iceman | April 24, 2011, 5:04 pmIceman,
Nobody want killing and blood, I have been advocating riding the co-tail of president Assad who wants reform so will strengthen his hand against the more hardliner, If the opposition is smart and they want the best for Syria they will give a chance for the president to move , otherwise they and Bashar Assad will be out and the more hardliners will be in power,
By the way many Syrian army members died and they did not shoot themselves,
Posted by Norman | April 24, 2011, 7:31 pm“By the way many Syrian army members died and they did not shoot themselves,”
Really Norman? Did you read this? It is from your own city of birth,
في مدينة حمص قال ناشط آخر لـ”رويترز” إن قوات الأمن اعتقلت منصور العلي وهو شخصية بارزة من الأقلية العلوية الحاكمة بعدما عارض علناً إطلاق قوات الأمن النار على المحتجين المطالبين بالتغيير الديمقراطي.
And what about this?
http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=143359532400116&comments
And what do you have to say to Dr. Ghalyoun in comment 169 above?
And who still believes Assad except the fools?
Posted by iceman | April 24, 2011, 8:06 pmiceman,
Do not believe everything you read.
Posted by Norman | April 24, 2011, 8:26 pmDo you believe everything your read from the Syrian State media or its subsidiaries, Norman?
By the way I do read it. Do I believe it?
Well, I will you tell after you answer my question.
Posted by iceman | April 24, 2011, 8:57 pmiceman,
No hell no.
Posted by Norman | April 24, 2011, 9:35 pmWell Norman, neither do I.
OK, let’s modify the original question slightly.
Do you believe ANYTHING you read from Syrian State media or its subsidiaries?
Again, I’ll let you know what I believe.
Posted by iceman | April 24, 2011, 9:40 pmIceman,
not if not collaborated by other media outlet.
Posted by Norman | April 24, 2011, 9:53 pmIceman,
Again , do not believe everything or anything you read if not confirmed.
Posted by Norman | April 24, 2011, 9:56 pm“not if not collaborated by other media outlet.”
So, I take it that you do not believe anything from the Syrian media because we cannot corroborate anything with independent media which we all know is BANNED from Syria.
Should you not ask yourself the simple question as to why Syrian regime does not allow independent reporting?
To me, the answer is the Syrian regime is a liar son of a liar and wants to hide the truth. There is no other explanation.
And since you are a regular SC participant I am sure you must have read comment # 238 under the current post, which I am not going to copy here since it is about half a mile long and contains the signatures of 100 Syrian jouranlist and writers plainly accusing official media of misleading.
So why do you want me to believe that those Syrian army or security men who were killed were in fact killed by demonstrators or some ghostly intruders and not by the rogue so-called security committees of Maher, which is becoming very obvious day by day, or even in some cases they may have been killed by the army commanders themselves because they’re refusing orders to shoot?
Why shouldn’t I believe the Reuters account about al-Ali in this case which has been reported as well by other Arab media quoting activists on the ground? Shouldn’t we believe the people on the ground in the absence of foreign media? After all a reporter is an eyewitness on the ground.
Posted by iceman | April 24, 2011, 10:22 pmTsk Tsk Tsk.
Norm Norm Norm.
What are we going to do with you? They’re playing you like a yo-yo and you’re lapping it up.
I’m a little surprised to see the sudden gush of concern for people killed during demonstrations coming from some quarters.
So much so, I decided to Google the situation in Bahrain.
http://bahrainrights.hopto.org/en/node/3864
I’m not sure if this particular outlet is Iranian controlled or Syrian controlled. Still, I found this little snippet rather enthralling.
I know his skull wasn’t crushed. But a bullet in the face doesn’t seem that much more pleasant.
Maybe, here at QN, we can all take a few moments of silence in his memory.
Posted by Gabriel | April 24, 2011, 10:29 pmGabe,
you are right,
Posted by Norman | April 24, 2011, 10:57 pmThe dead Bahrainis are Shia, meaning all are Iranian agents and instigators out to meddle in the affairs of the Kingdom of democracy, they have no right to rebel, they are imported outsiders to the Arab world so they don’t deserve the respect of the hypocrite Iceman aka Wahhabi filth.
Posted by V | April 24, 2011, 11:57 pm” L’Administration Obama ne voit pas d’alternative crédible à Bachar Assad et continue de croire qu’il est capable de faire des réformes….”
Spoken from both ends of his mouth, Obama perpetuates the gross and Infamous White House Murder INC, in the Levant with Assad/Maher/Asef Shawkat….and Worldwide with DOD, CIA & JSOC… together with his buddies the Wahhabi Crazies of the Kingdom of Filth, invading and crushing Bahrain.
http://www.lefigaro.fr/international/2011/04/24/01003-20110424ARTFIG00160-la-crise-syrienne-place-obama-en-position-delicate.php
Posted by HK | April 25, 2011, 3:45 amMeanwhile,
Asef Shawkat’s military intelligence Snipers continue firing on BOTH protesters and security forces in order to justify the continued violence and mayhem , desperately trying to crush the revolution in Syria…and perpetuate the Assad Dynasty of thugs/assassins in its close association with the Infamous White House Murder INC, in the Levant for decades.
Posted by HK | April 25, 2011, 4:29 amHey QN,
I think the question you titled your post with is essential: “How sectarian is Syria?“. And it begs another one: what do we actually mean by sectarian?
I’m not sure May Akl, Joshua Landis or Ammar Abdulhamid are actually speaking of the same thing when they speak of “sectarianism”. However, they use the argument in a similar way. I noticed that their arguments don’t actually need a clear definition of “sectarianism” because their perspective is somewhat a geopolitical one, and neither institutional nor sociological (two perspectives in which a clear definition of sectarianism becomes necessary). They just use it in the way politicians use it, as a derogatory and not an explanatory term.
Posted by worriedlebanese | April 25, 2011, 5:01 amGabe,
A few thousand people died yesterday throughout the globe. A moment of silence to them. Another moment of silence to honor the victims of the Armenian Genocide.
Now that we have done our duty…We are discussing Syria in this thread. Every time you lose your concentration…do not throw a sectarian “shia” word around. May be you should have taken a longer bike ride.
We all care about the violence and deaths in Bahrain, Iran, KSA and in other countries…
Now are you happy! It still does not detract from the fact that today over tens of people were murdered ruthlessly by Maher’s thugs. It seems the army is clashing with Maher’s mafioso thugs in Daraa. Now let the last shoe drop.
Posted by danny | April 25, 2011, 7:08 amThe United States, an utterly corrupt and crumbling Empire, has condoned Saudi Arabia’s counter-revolution against the Great 2011 Arab Revolt and incendiary manipulation of sectarianism shatters America’s “credibility on democracy and reform”. For all its bluster, the Wahhaby Crazies/House of Saud’s actions are essentially moved by fear and will lead to a total radicalization of the Sunni-Shi’ite divide across the Arab/Islamic world.
Meanwhile, smart Iranian mediation between the government and the opposition in Bahrain could help win it points in the competition for Arab hearts and minds.
Posted by HK | April 25, 2011, 7:27 amGuess Hillary Clinton will now distinguish between tanks and airplanes .. She will say Assad has not used airplanes to bomb people (yet).
Posted by rm | April 25, 2011, 8:43 amDanny,
You may care. But should you be speaking on behalf of others?
The topic of this thread (which everyone appears to have avoided altogether) is “How Sectarian is Syria”. My point is quite relevant to this theme!
Posted by Gabriel | April 25, 2011, 8:59 amBillary is too busy making money to distinguish between anything. Her relations with Obomba are down right hostile and acrimonious….
Time and again…the US relations with Syria/Lebanon are directly handled by CIA for decades, Foggy Bottom is just a facade, they are immaterial and useless. Always watch what they do, not what they say…Rhetoric is cheap.
Posted by HK | April 25, 2011, 9:04 amGabe,
I was speaking of myself in the plural lol. 😀
Posted by danny | April 25, 2011, 9:11 amSaudi Arabia’s Wahabbi Troops Burn Shia Mosques in Bahrain.
http://vodpod.com/watch/7085696-wahabbi-troops-burn-shia-mosques-in-bahrain?pod=
Wahabbi Thugs of KSA, a crypto-Zionist Sect, Burn Qurans, Level Mosques in Bahrain…
http://vodpod.com/watch/7085768-wahabbi-troops-burn-qurans-level-mosques-in-bahrain?pod=
Posted by HK | April 25, 2011, 9:34 amDanny :D.
LoL. Touche.
On an unrelated note, I’m a little perplexed by the amount of typically “anti-Syrian” “Xians” who are now concerned for Bashar on account of the “Xians” in Syria.
Kudos to you for keeping it real and sticking to your principles.
Unrelated point 2: Iceman posted some days ago an excellent interview between Issam Fares, whose party split from the MB in Egypt, with Al-Manar. For those who missed it, it’s a must watch. I think he will likely be going a long way. Maybe a renaissance in the region is finally in the works.
Posted by Gabriel | April 25, 2011, 10:31 amThere is an interesting comment (#69) posted by From Damascus on Joshua Landis’s blog.
Posted by R2D2 | April 25, 2011, 11:50 amIt has come to my attention that some idiots try to establish communication without observing proper protocols. It is either they suffer from blind ignorance, reinforcing their idiocy in front of the public, or are unaware of what the proper protocol is, which is even worse as it shows total lack of proper manners. But even that is no excuse as it has been made crystal clear enough for idiots to understands couple posts ago in a comment #246.
Lest you think I just woke up, rest assured that I already had my coffee.
But I still do not understand why a singleton cannot speak as a ‘multiplexor’.
Posted by iceman | April 25, 2011, 12:25 pm