Syria, The Qnion

Only the Brave


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100 thoughts on “Only the Brave

  1. I don’t know, Obama played the Syrian revolution quite well in my opinion. He realizes that change in Syria is a much bigger issue for Turkey than the US and he manipulated Erdogan to take action by stressing Turkey’s inclination to be a leader in the middle east. In one fell swoop, he brought Turkey and Israel back together and marginalized Iran even more. Turkey “owns” the Syrian fiasco and if military intervention ever comes, it will be led by Turkey.

    Yes, US action has seemed slow and indecisive but I think Obama is playing a good “long game” against Assad. And let’s not forget, there is the nuclear issue, the STL and more sanctions. With Turkey firmly on its side and with so much dry ammunition that will be used in the future, how can Obama not win? If Obama would have acted more decisively he would have lost Turkey plus his attempt to make Turkey “own” the situation would not have looked sincere. The US needed to give the Turksplenty of time to convince themselves that Assad does not plan to reform.

    Posted by AIG | June 24, 2011, 12:18 am
  2. I don’t think it is realistic or reasonable to expect the U.S. to authorise and Israeli attack on Iran and its allies in Syria/Lebanon/Gaza until the U.S. has withdrawn the bulk of its forces in Afghanistan and Iraq – the U.S. Federal Government’s annual deficits are absolutely unprecedentedly large and the stock of U.S. Treasury debt is trully massive – and interest bearing on the stock of debt will rise whenever the U.S. economy starts to grow again – it is a very big cost burden that needs to be reduced before opening up another front; also the U.S. soliders in Iraq and Afghanistan would be more vulnerable when there is a formal open war between Iran/allies vs US/Israel, so you wouldn’t expect the U.S. to be escalating things against the apartheid regime in Syria until the U.S. and Israeli side are both financially in a better position and their forces in afghanistan and iraq have been largely tactically withdrawn out of danger.

    Posted by S al-riachy | June 24, 2011, 3:02 am
  3. Qifa Nabki,

    For clarity sake, does the drawing represent your pov about what the US should do?

    Posted by Badr | June 24, 2011, 3:10 am
  4. No “brave” there whatsoever. Only war criminals and assassins enter that dungeon. It’s the HOME of the most infamous White House Murder INC, and the Zioconned killers/murderers!

    Posted by HK | June 24, 2011, 5:03 am
  5. The power politics will become less important when people democratically understand they all have similar interests: end of the occupation, justice, freedom, good governance and open borders. Plus, a permanent end of the most infamous White House Murder INC, !

    Posted by HK | June 24, 2011, 5:45 am
  6. Not enough people love the truth. Not enough people seek after the truth regarding the Zioconned & most infamous White House Murder INC, want to know what is true, what is real, and desire this knowledge deeply, even if the truth is painful. When many more people love the truth enough to seek it, to learn it, to accept its reality no matter how painful it is initially, our problems will resolve themselves. To love the truth is to love. To seek the truth is to love. To love is to lend our hands to God and to deny them to evil. It is all very, very simple. Love the truth, look for it everywhere, and all will be well, eventually. Honor your own dignity enough to refuse to be lied to….

    Posted by HK | June 24, 2011, 6:28 am
  7. “Mr. President, I have to remind you that if we are to click on the “like” button of FB then GMA might “twist our arm”

    Posted by Ghassan Karam | June 24, 2011, 6:58 am
  8. AIG

    You are right. I actually think Obama has played all of the “revolutions” well, perhaps with the exception of Libya which is quickly turning into a disaster.

    But the inaction trope is too blatant not to have a little fun with.

    Posted by Qifa Nabki | June 24, 2011, 8:16 am
  9. QN,

    I view Libya as a success.Any place there are no US forces on the ground and the Europeans are taking the lead is a huge success for the US attempts to stop European piggy backing on US military might and forcing them to invest more themselves.

    Posted by AIG | June 24, 2011, 9:25 am
  10. …..فؤاد السنيورة

    يؤكد مصرفي بارز ان فؤاد السنيورة زار العاصمة الاميركية واشنطن منذ شهر ونيف بهدف التحريض على مرجعية مصرفية كبيرة وقطع الطريق على التمديد لها بحجة العلاقة الجيدة التي تربطها اقليميا ومحليا بجهات سياسية معينة .وان المرجع المذكور حاول لقاء وزير الخزانة الاميركي فلم يستطع كذلك الامر مع كبار معاونيه فاكتفى عندها بلقاء في مقهى مع مسؤول صغير كان زميلا لاحد مستشاريه الذي رتب هذا اللقاء وهو( م س ) فحاول تسويق فكرة الضغط المصرفي على الجوار اللبناني وكذلك على الاكثرية الجديدة عبر فتح ملفات بعض المصارف , وهو الامر الذي ترجم بتسريبات اعلامية عن استهداف مصارف لبنانية جديدة
    وتشير معلومات صحافية في واشنطن عن تكليف لوبي بموازنة 3 مليون دولار للهجوم على المصارف اللبنانية
    وعلى حاكم مصرف لبنان رياض سلامة , ولكن من سوء الطالع لهؤلاء ان المقال الاول الذي صدر في جريدة “وال ستريت جورنال” كان لكاتب اسرائيلي يكتب اسبوعيا في “يدوعوت احرونوت”

    Posted by HK | June 24, 2011, 9:48 am
  11. Will they be watching it live as it happens too? 🙂

    Posted by Rime | June 24, 2011, 10:30 am
  12. AIG, we’re waiting for Israel to ” stop [] piggy backing on US (financial hand-outs and) military might and [] to invest more themselves.” When that happens we will consider Israel “a success.”

    Posted by Honest Patriot | June 24, 2011, 2:16 pm
  13. The bearded one sounds like a child in kindergarten…Nassrallah has lost all charm, influence and effect. Here’s a gem.

    “because we don’t have any companies abroad, and even in Lebanon we don’t have any invested in any projects and we don’t have any bank accounts.”

    Yup…His money is through smugglers of the Southern American triangle.He owns the all Lebanese land…Why need projects if he has confiscated the country?

    Posted by danny | June 24, 2011, 2:31 pm
  14. Here’s another from the hypocrite….Nass rall ahhhhh:(From Now Lebanon)

    “- Syrian President Bashar al-Assad formulated a mechanism to launch reforms and he issued two general amnesties.

    – In Bahrain, however, protestors are being killed and injured. Opposition leaders are being sentenced to life in prison. This is unjust. Colluding to overthrow the resisting regime serves Israel and the US and their aims to dominate the region.

    Walla? No people are being bombed to death by tanks in Syria eh? …and still people like the ganja addict HK worship this scoundrel. it figures…Both on flying donuts with laced Bekaa gold.

    Posted by danny | June 24, 2011, 3:00 pm
  15. Danny,
    SHN was absolutely right when he said:

    مهما فعل الاسد لن يقبل منه لا دوليا ولا على مستوى بعض المواقف العربية أو ما يسمى المعارضة السورية

    Of course hw was being sarcastic but he did speak the truth. I have been saying this for a long time: There is no way that a dictator can be rehabilitated. The only solution is for the dictator/butcher to leave.

    Posted by Ghassan Karam | June 24, 2011, 3:34 pm
  16. AIG,

    Nice call on Obama and Syrian situation. Totally agree.

    Disagree on Libya. Another Obama failure and good food for the Republicans. Generally, Obama is too easy on these actors and terror supporters. Obama doesn’t bother these despots; only their citizens do. “Smart Power” is bullshit, just like our “withdraw” from Afghanistan and Iraq.

    We’re in for the long haul. Quietly, but effectively. Let ‘nejad and Hassan sneeze…

    Posted by Akbar Palace | June 24, 2011, 4:13 pm
  17. The only solution is for the dictator/butcher Bashar Assad and his sordid Mafia to leave Pronto…. 🙂

    Syria was a P. O. Box for Hezbollah and given the Geo-strategic environment of Syria, it will remain that way, no matter who governs Syria after the Assad Mafia leaves for North Korea 🙂

    Kudos to Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah, Sayyed Al-Mouquawama Al-Sharifa of the Lebanese Resistance of Hezbollah.

    Posted by HK | June 24, 2011, 4:13 pm
  18. If the internal conflict in Syria escalates, security chiefs lead by the thug in chief Asef Shawkat will stage a coup “sacrificing” Assad in order to cut a deal with the opposition…. 🙂

    http://euobserver.com/9/32544

    Posted by HK | June 24, 2011, 4:45 pm
  19. It would be interesting to ask Michel Aoun and Hassan Nasrallah of what they make of Saddam Hussein’s legacy today.

    Was he insane to fight the Sunni Elitists? The Iranians? The Israelis and the Americans?

    I wonder how Hassan Nasrallah would pull that one off?

    Posted by R2D2 | June 24, 2011, 5:40 pm
  20. I don’t quite remember … but did the Assads and Hezbollah join Saddam Hussein’s war of liberation against Israel? America?

    Was I dreaming or did Michel Aoun not receive direct and open funding and support from Saddam Hussein personally in 89/90?

    Water under the bridge … I guess.

    Posted by R2D2 | June 24, 2011, 5:54 pm
  21. Pretty sure this is breaking news. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-13912456

    Posted by Nasser V | June 24, 2011, 6:29 pm
  22. V, I think this is the beginning of a scheme to divert the STL indictment by accusing such CIA-spies within HA of the Hariri assassination.
    Opinions will vary whether this is brilliant or completely transparent as a ploy. Either way, one has to acknowledge the creativity and imagination of those members of the HA think tank.
    The real pity is that many Lebanese will buy it.

    Posted by Honest Patriot | June 24, 2011, 7:00 pm
  23. Since the discussion seems to have shifted to SHN and Hezbollah, as usual, let me share with you the following. I have finished reading the majestic book “Shiism: a religion of protest” by Hamid Dabashi. A wonderful book full of information and original insights.
    One sentence from the preface might be very relevant to our discussion””my principal contention is that Shi’ism is predicated on a rather perplexing paradox- that it is morally triumphant when it is politically defiant, and that it morally fails when it politically succeeds”.
    To my mind, there is no better description of what is going on in Iran in particular and even in Lebanon for the past 4-5 years.

    Posted by Ghassan Karam | June 24, 2011, 8:50 pm
  24. R2D2,

    “Join” Saddam Hussein? Hardly. You would think the 2 Baathist regimes would be natural allies. Not so. Syria voted FOR UNSC 1441, the pretext for conducting regime change in Iraq.

    (Israel was not part of the vote and never will be)

    Posted by Akbar Palace | June 24, 2011, 9:21 pm
  25. HP,

    Is that the royal we you are using when you write:
    we’re waiting for Israel to ” stop [] piggy backing on US (financial hand-outs and) military might and [] to invest more themselves.” When that happens we will consider Israel “a success.”

    Because apparently you are quite a minority in this position in the US. Israel is the US most reliable military ally. We invest more per capita in defense than the US itself and we have never had any need for an American soldier to risk his life for us in any war. Israel is the test bed for many innovative technologies that are valuable for the US, among them UAVs. Compare that to the number of American lives sacrificed in saving Europe from itself and the direct involvement the US required even in the bombing campaign in Serbia in the nineties. The Europeans under invest in their defense needs, because they piggy back on the US. Israel does not. We defend ourselves. Yes, we get aid from the US, but you do realize that we are mandated to spend most of it in the US and it is basically a stimulus for the US defense industry?

    Posted by AIG | June 24, 2011, 9:36 pm
  26. Where’s BV???

    STL…STL…STL…

    HP, I don’t give a rat’s ass what a sweaty bearded man “unveils”…His freaking party apparently killed Hariri and they have been caught with their pants down (as disgusting as the thought may be)

    Nasser…breaking where? Wake up dude. We are not buying this shit even if its dusted in Gold.

    Posted by danny | June 24, 2011, 10:10 pm
  27. AIG, hmm, I hit a raw nerve? Support for Israel has been a very sharp double-edged sword for the US.
    A tremendous amount of horror and misery could have been spared a lot of people, including Israelis, if history had followed a different course. There’s plenty of blame to go around, but attacking the Europeans as you did without similarly pointing out the indispensable US support to Israël is disingenuous.
    Don’t throw stones when you live in a glass castle.

    Posted by Honest Patriot | June 25, 2011, 12:56 am
  28. It is better to have lived one day as a lion than to have lived a hundred years as a lamb ~Italian proverb 🙂

    Posted by HK | June 25, 2011, 2:29 am
  29. 24. Akhra Palace:

    http://www.undemocracy.com/securitycouncil/meeting_4644#pg010-bk01

    Syria broke with Saddam because he was so fucking retarded. The US economy was literally dying in 1990, just like the USSR, when they encouraged Saddam to attack Kuwait and stabbed him in the back. Then infinite oil money started magically boosting the US economy. Even though Hafez cut diplomatic ties with Iraq, he personally called Saddam and warned him against going into Kuwait, and douchebag Saddam ignored.

    Posted by Usama | June 25, 2011, 2:53 am
  30. بدكون تسقطوا النظام سقطوا الليرة
    🙂
    هكذا حين يصاب الاقتصاد يتخلى التجار وابناء الطبقة الوسطى عن بشار الاسد فينهار نظامه

    The month-long conflict in 2006 killed more than 1,200 Lebanese, mainly civilians, and 160 Israelis, mainly soldiers, and destroyed much of Lebanon’s major infrastructure….

    So Israel kills mainly civilians and Hezbollah kills mainly cowardly Israeli soldiers but Hezbollah is listed as the terrorist group?
    The most odious Zioconned White House Murder INC, instigates dozens of political assassinations in the Levant since 2000, but ends up steering STL to hide its despicable, disgusting tracks…

    What a joke the US government and its lackeys are!

    Posted by HK | June 25, 2011, 3:06 am
  31. Where is Robert Stephen Ford ?

    Well, he is still holding the Fort in Damascouss, relishing the good times with Asef Shawkat of the most infamous White House Murder INC, in the Levant…
    The CIA station in Damascus is warming up for the next move with Asef, the thug in Chief and assassin for hire on behalf of Cia/Mossad 🙂

    Posted by HK | June 25, 2011, 11:34 am
  32. HP,

    If you did not notice, it was Gates himself that was “attacking” the Europeans for their inability to sustain a campaign in Europe.

    You say that support of Israel has been a double edged sword. Based on what? Significant support started on after 1967 when Israel did the US a great favor and put Arab nationalism to rest without one American soldier having to give his life. Israel was the best ally the US could have during the cold war.

    Posted by AIG | June 25, 2011, 11:37 am
  33. HK,
    Why do you think that Anthony Lawson and McKinney are credible? Don’t you think that the message that you are trying to broadcast will be much better served by dissociating itself from such spokespersons?
    This 15 minutes comes very close to being yellow journalism.

    Posted by Ghassan Karam | June 25, 2011, 5:57 pm
  34. Hmmmmmmmmmm.

    I betcha I know what happened to the vanished iceman. He was working a contract at the US embassy in Awkar and had to bolt once the cover of his recent HA recruit was blown.

    Tra La!

    Posted by lally | June 25, 2011, 6:24 pm
  35. Danny, you’re right, it’s just so farfetched. Totally unlikely, and SHN lies all the time right?

    Posted by Nasser V | June 25, 2011, 6:58 pm
  36. Oh come on…… People.

    I thought HNA already dismissed the Rogue Elements theory.

    Posted by Gabriel | June 25, 2011, 8:29 pm
  37. Gaby, wlah! You ARE Iceman!
    Only he used “HNA”
    To prove your innocence you must expand the HANA acronym.

    Posted by Honest Patriot | June 25, 2011, 9:32 pm
  38. Meant HNA

    Posted by Honest Patriot | June 25, 2011, 9:35 pm
  39. Please!!! “israel” not Israel. I don’t know why I have to keep making this point. I thought people here understood the importance of The Resistance. Israehell, zionist entity, and zionazis are also o.k.

    Posted by dontgetit | June 25, 2011, 9:50 pm
  40. Holy_Nads_(of)_Awe

    Posted by lally | June 25, 2011, 10:38 pm
  41. HP#38

    LooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooL

    Wallah manak aleel ya HP… Hahahahahah

    I can’t believe you actually kept a mental record of that convo. I wonder if the Iceman will ever be back to expand on the acronym.

    Hahahahahahahha

    Posted by Gabriel | June 26, 2011, 1:38 am
  42. GK, # 34,

    What is it that you consider Yellow Journalism?
    The cowardly attack on the USS Liberty by IDF Killers?
    Or is it AIPAC schmucks buying up Congress on both sides of the isle, which
    every American considers as a given?
    These creeps have to be debunked whether it’s done by Jill, John or Anthony or any other Madonna…!
    Your desire to be institutional and “politically correct” knows no bounds 🙂

    Posted by HK | June 26, 2011, 2:57 am
  43. QN,

    Elias Muhanna quoted by AP/US equivalent of Pravda…. , You must be CIA Elias, I got you 🙂

    “People are afraid of what could happen if Assad falls from power,” said Elias Muhanna, a political analyst at Harvard University. At worst, it could become what he calls “an Iraq scenario,” with armed militias carving out ethnic fiefdoms.”

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110626/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_syria_s_bloody_spring

    Posted by HK | June 26, 2011, 3:10 am
  44. “how can Obama not win? “

    AIG,

    I’d say, by not outlasting Bashar and his ruling regime!

    Posted by Badr | June 26, 2011, 4:06 am
  45. Nice piece by Hamid Dabashi on Netanyahu, al-Assad, Nasrallah etc. – these mirror images of each other and their chronic co dependency:

    http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/06/2011625114740529701.html

    Posted by Jean Estiphan | June 26, 2011, 7:04 am
  46. 36. nasser. Nassrallah’s comments are designed for people like you. Can HA be infiltrated? For all I know Nassralla could be Mossad himself lol….and Nasrallah lying? God forbid.

    I believe HA could make millions writing fictional spy thrillers for Hollywood. Now that would be great. Having HK & Nassrallah collaborating on a blockbuster. 😛

    Here’s the reason the green & yellows are wilting…

    “Lebanese Authorities Reportedly Handed Indictment as Lebanese Judges Head to The Hague”…

    http://www.naharnet.com/stories/en/9182-lebanese-authorities-reportedly-handed-indictment-as-lebanese-judges-head-to-the-hague

    Posted by danny | June 26, 2011, 7:49 am
  47. All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident….
    Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah, God keeps him and protects him from the thugs in Damascus and the Infamous White House Murder INC, knows the TRUTH about Asef Shawkat and CIA/MOSSAD/MI6/BND/DGSE Shenanigans 🙂

    Posted by HK | June 26, 2011, 10:45 am
  48. HK.

    The stage of truth evolution is just about your most profound contribution to date!

    It just hit me like a meteor.

    HNA or SHN is a CIA tool. I’m not entirely sure why you’re stuck on the 1st or 2nd phase, but soon enough, that too will dawn on you 🙂

    HP

    I thought HNA was: Hassan Nasr Allah

    Posted by Gabriel | June 26, 2011, 11:54 am
  49. Thank you for the cogent analysis.

    Maybe ultimately we will get the war between West and East that will bring the West down via bringing the US and its infamous White House Murder INC, to it’s knees…. 🙂

    To make life a little more enjoyable reading about this problem, please enjoy the operatic satire at:

    http://www.gilad.co.uk/writings/israhell-comes-to-realise-its-end-must-watch.html#entry11819426

    Posted by HK | June 26, 2011, 2:13 pm
  50. Hk,

    Please stick to your golden Bekaa cocktail.

    Posted by danny | June 26, 2011, 8:06 pm
  51. Not Stealing Palestine but Purchasing Israel

    http://www.danielpipes.org/9931/palestine-israel-stealing-purchasing

    Posted by Akbar Palace | June 26, 2011, 8:54 pm
  52. …the war between West and East that will bring the West down…

    HK,

    After evaluating the Youtube videos from Syria, as well as the following news clip, I can’t say that I agree with you.

    I guess you must know something we don’t;)

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2008039/Shes-bit-ruff-Chinese-crested-Chihuahua-mix-wins-Worlds-Ugliest-Dog-title.html

    Posted by Akbar Palace | June 26, 2011, 9:02 pm
  53. AP, HK, and I guess also AIG,

    There will NEVER be an agreement on the historical interpretation of who has the right to what in the Holy Land. What matters is what the accommodation going forward should be to give the new generation a fighting chance at peaceful and prosperous living.
    My own opinion has been that there is indeed one culprit in all this and one only: it is religious (or, if AIG prefers, tribal) fanaticism. Take that away, separate religion and state (and, yes, separate “tribe” and state — it makes no difference, AIG, what the heck you call it), and you end up with ordinary people (the majority) wanting to work and live in peace and make a future for their children better than the lot they were given.
    The reality, as much as each wants to deny it, is that there is plenty of guilt to go around, and that guilt always goes back to the fanatics.
    There is a glimmer of hope that the Arab spring will seed the crystal of common sense and of shedding fanaticism in the Arab world. If and as that emerges the challenge will be whether the moderates in Israel will succeed in having their opinion steering a peace agreement will prevail. You may be surprised to know that I do think that PM Netanyahu may indeed be the one who adopts this moderation initiative and, in this respect, the video posted by HIK, although satirical, does have a grain of truth as far as the extreme right wing pressures from Lieberman and Co. On the other hand, of course the implication that Israel will be committing mass suicide is one of the continuing bogus fallacies that drive the Arab extremists.
    Shed those fanatics and extremists and, within relatively short time, all will be well again in the Middle East.

    Posted by Honest Patriot | June 26, 2011, 9:21 pm
  54. HP,

    We joke in Israel that the smart Jews went to the US and the stubborn Jews came to Israel. Taking tribalism and religiosity out of the middle east is like taking hydrogen out of water. What is left would not be water. I prefer Israel to the US because I prefer a Jewish identity to a cosmopolitan identity. I want a country were Hebrew is spoken and Jewish culture is the predominant one.

    And of course there are my mirror images in Arab countries.
    America and multi-culturalism are great. But that ain’t Israel. And it ain’t Egypt or Lebanon or Syria. And that is not going to change any time soon.

    Posted by AIG | June 26, 2011, 10:56 pm
  55. HP: I don’t know why you say there is no resolution of rights to the Holy Land. Under international law, Palestine became permanent Arab property after the Muslim conquest liberated the land in the seventh century.

    Posted by dontgetit | June 26, 2011, 11:15 pm
  56. Iceman and Gabriel are one. Gabriel is icemans Tyler Durden.

    Posted by maverick | June 27, 2011, 12:58 am
  57. HP, # 54,

    I tend to agree with your analysis and I have hinted at that repeatedly…
    My extreme positions though, stem mainly from my utter disdain for the actions of the most Infamous White House Murder INC, and its cronies…, ever since the savage assassination of Mr. Elie HOBEIKA, Dimitri Ajram, Walid El-Zein and Fares Sweidan, January 24th 2002, may they all RIP.
    When I manage to separate myself from the emotional agony of that cowardly act by CIA/MOSSAD and Asef Shawkat, I can see things your way, but that is going to be a long way off…the wound is too deep!

    Posted by HK | June 27, 2011, 2:23 am
  58. HP,

    Every people have the right to independence and self-government.

    That includes the Jewish, Palestinian, and Kurdish peoples.

    Ironically, if Israel never formed 63 years ago, no one would be talking about Palestinians. The reality today is a border dispute and mutual recognition.

    Posted by Akbar Palace | June 27, 2011, 4:07 am
  59. I don’t know, AP. I’m familiar with the narrative you refer to but wonder whether it is simply rewriting of history and Israeli propaganda. Many a Palestinian would find what you say as offensive as a Jew would find denial of the holocaust. Empathy is part of what will bring peace. Denying a people had an identity runs counter to peace.
    We can leave it to historians to write the narrative after the heat of emotions would have king died, decades ire centuries from now.

    Posted by Honest Patriot | June 27, 2011, 8:16 am
  60. Funny “smartphone” autocomplete.
    then not king, or not ire.

    Posted by honestpatriot | June 27, 2011, 8:25 am
  61. I for agree about the issue of mutual recognition. The fixation by some Arabs to deny the existence (or the right to exist) of Israel is and has been a crime.

    Posted by honestpatriot | June 27, 2011, 8:29 am
  62. do agree not for agree

    Posted by honestpatriot | June 27, 2011, 8:30 am
  63. Denial of a longstanding Palestinian identity, claiming it only came about from jealousy of the Jews is equally criminal, imho.
    As I said before, there’s plenty of guilt to go around.

    Posted by honestpatriot | June 27, 2011, 8:34 am
  64. Everyone knows the Palestinian people have a long an ancient tradition as rulers of the land and pre-date the Apartheid State by thousands of years.

    Posted by dontgetit | June 27, 2011, 8:52 am
  65. I don’t know, AP. I’m familiar with the narrative you refer to but wonder whether it is simply rewriting of history and Israeli propaganda. Many a Palestinian would find what you say as offensive as a Jew would find denial of the holocaust.

    HP,

    I would be interested in understanding how my recognition of a Palestinian people is “…as offensive as a Jew would find denial of the holocaust.”.

    Empathy is part of what will bring peace. Denying a people had an identity runs counter to peace.

    I am not sure when the Palestiian “identity” began. The creation of the PLO in 1964? I acknowledge them now, unlike a large percentage of the pro-jihadists who still refuse to recgonize a Jewish state. Moreover, there was no discussion of Jordan or Egypt “occupying” Palestine prior to 1967.

    Looking forward, is is mutual recognition and setting the border between the two peoples/states.

    Posted by Akbar Palace | June 27, 2011, 9:35 am
  66. A little refresher course in Palestinian history for our talking points in the coming days may be useful. Neutralizing the propaganda of media and criminal governments is one small way of staying human….

    Posted by HK | June 27, 2011, 10:49 am
  67. War is still in the offing….

    When did the military stop reading Clausewitz (sic) and that war is an extension of politics? 🙂

    Posted by HK | June 27, 2011, 12:01 pm
  68. AIG,

    Here’s a good article from Charles Krauthammer about the differences between Obama and GWB when it comes to war-making…

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/who-takes-us-to-war/2011/06/23/AGwFS4hH_story.html

    Posted by Akbar Palace | June 27, 2011, 12:35 pm
  69. Well, I’m back after a long weekend away. I see I missed Hassan Nassrallah’s latest diatribes, lies and hypocrisy.
    Nothing new there.

    How does this clown still have supporters? The hypocrisy which may have been masked by a veneer of heroism/resistance/etc at one time is now pretty plain for all to see…What gives?

    Posted by Bad Vilbel | June 27, 2011, 1:46 pm
  70. AP, I’m not sure you understood my point. I was referring to the narrative which says that there wasn’t really a Palestinian people and they only “discovered” their identity in reaction to the creation of the state of Israel. This is a narrative that a certain lobby writes in full-page ads in the U.S. every now and then in major publications. It is an offensive narrative implying (unlike your position of accepting now the existence of a Palestinian people) that since there was no Palestinian people there should be no Palestinian state and there should just be an absorption of these folks into Jordan.
    So,…, under that narrative, the Palestinians are denied an identify as a people. The implications of this are dire.
    Just as those of us with knowledge of and respect of history look with utter disgust and disdain at those who – still now – insist on denying the Holocaust, the same kind of disdain is felt about those who lobby and spend fortunes presenting the false narrative about the Palestinian people.
    We are not in disagreement on the way forward. I don’t think. Since you acknowledge a Palestinian identity now. Not everyone does. And those are the fringe that causes problems just like the deniers of the Holocaust are a fringe.

    Posted by Honest Patriot | June 27, 2011, 1:53 pm
  71. “identity” not “identify”

    Posted by Honest Patriot | June 27, 2011, 1:54 pm
  72. Early June i mentioned “Who’s next on FPM list after Baroud? Could it be Riad Salameh?”
    Today FPMer Dib says
    “أكد ديب ان “لا شيء ضد شخص سلامة، ولكن نحن كـ”تيار وطني حر” نشدّد على مبدأ تداول كل السلطات”، قائلاً: مهما كان الشخص “عظيماً”، فلا يمكن تصوّر أن لا بديل عنه في ظل ما يتمتّع به اللبنانيون من كفاءات، معتبراً أن كلمة “لا بديل” خطيرة جداً، وقد سمعناها في عدة استحقاقات ولكن تبيّن أن هناك الكثير من الكفاءات المهمة جداً.”
    What’s/who’s next???

    Posted by IHTDA | June 27, 2011, 2:14 pm
  73. #72

    HP… What are you going on about? Offensive Shmoffensive. I thought prior to 67 the West Bank and Gaza were part of Jordan and Egypt respectively. Why couldn’t this be an option in a menu of possible future outcomes?

    Posted by Gabriel | June 27, 2011, 2:31 pm
  74. I see the Saudi/Bahraini axis are going after the Frisky Independent.

    http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/jun2011/fisk-j27.shtml

    Posted by Gabriel | June 27, 2011, 2:44 pm
  75. Gaby Habibi:
    Why couldn’t this be an option in a menu of possible future outcomes?
    Because this should be the Palestinians’ choice and no one else’s.
    Before World War I, it was all part of the Ottoman Empire. I can similarly ask: Why couldn’t this be an option in a menu of possible future outcomes?Why couldn’t this be an option in a menu of possible future outcomes?

    Posted by Honest Patriot | June 27, 2011, 4:41 pm
  76. Repetition unintended

    Posted by Honest Patriot | June 27, 2011, 4:42 pm
  77. HP,

    “narrative which says that there wasn’t really a Palestinian people and they only “discovered” their identity in reaction to the creation of the state of Israel”
    It is a common narrative because it (the first part) used to be the official Arab position. All national differences between Arabs were denied or strongly deemphasized under pan-Arabism. It even used to be the official position of the Palestinian Arabs (e.g. when some notables had a conference in 1919 to try to convince the British to change policies, they called themselves ‘Southern Syrians’).

    Now, that some people have made a U-turn, attacking those which remember what was said yesterday is ridiculous and comparing it to holocaust denial is offensive and smacks of an attempt to shut down inquiry.

    In any event, had the Mandate not existed, the surrounding Arab states would have definitely grabbed the territory, as they tried to do historically, so it is not very likely anyone would think of ‘Palestine’.

    Posted by Y. | June 27, 2011, 5:24 pm
  78. The new cabinet is not hung on a statement and stand on the STL … however KFC, Burger King and Mc Donald’s have imposed strict sanctions on Lebanon and especially heavily bearded men … threatening to impose both a hair and beard net on all cooking personnel.

    SHN does not agree !

    Posted by R2D2 | June 27, 2011, 5:24 pm
  79. Gabriel,
    I am glad that you read WSWS, seriously ( I have no idea why I am saying this but for one reason or another I did not expect it :-))

    Posted by Ghassan Karam | June 27, 2011, 5:52 pm
  80. Aoun confirms its a Zionist plot … cause real Lebanese men like him barely have to shave once a month.

    I say … it’s a “Gillette” plot.

    Posted by R2D2 | June 27, 2011, 5:54 pm
  81. I was referring to the narrative which says that there wasn’t really a Palestinian people and they only “discovered” their identity in reaction to the creation of the state of Israel.

    HP,

    Thanks for the response. Yes, there are all kinds of narratives, and I think I understand you. As a Jew, I find it strange that if I say the Palestinians “discovered” their identity after Israel was created, then that is equivalent to denying the holocaust. But if you say it is so, then I believe you.

    This is a narrative that a certain lobby writes in full-page ads in the U.S. every now and then in major publications. It is an offensive narrative implying (unlike your position of accepting now the existence of a Palestinian people) that since there was no Palestinian people there should be no Palestinian state and there should just be an absorption of these folks into Jordan.

    Yes, I recall ads by the group “FLAME”…here is an archive of their ads. Wikipedia also has a small website showing their history:

    http://www.factsandlogic.org/
    http://www.factsandlogic.org/ads_and_positions.html
    http://www.factsandlogic.org/ad_79.html

    I can understand why a Palestinian or Arab would be angered by their statements, so I agree with you there. OTOH, my perspective is the following:

    – No one knows WHEN Palestinian nationhood was “borne”.
    – Palestine was never an independent, sovereign nation.

    Sensitivities aside, it is well past due that both sides move past this, while the opportunity is still in reach, to recognize each other, and settle the dispute.

    So,…, under that narrative, the Palestinians are denied an identify as a people.

    At one time, the Palestinians had almost no voice as a people. The neighboring Arab states spoke for them. Only after years of fighting and negotiating have the Palestinians made a name for themselves and garnered the support they needed. You tell me WHEN the Palestinians became a nation.

    The implications of this are dire.

    Everything is “dire”. Yawn. I say the parties are happy with the current stalemate.

    Just as those of us with knowledge of and respect of history look with utter disgust and disdain at those who – still now – insist on denying the Holocaust, the same kind of disdain is felt about those who lobby and spend fortunes presenting the false narrative about the Palestinian people.

    Thanks, but arab/jihadist holocaust denial bores me too. I’ve seen enough of it, I almost believe it;)

    We are not in disagreement on the way forward. I don’t think. Since you acknowledge a Palestinian identity now. Not everyone does. And those are the fringe that causes problems just like the deniers of the Holocaust are a fringe.

    The Jews I met in Efrat (the West Bank) do not deny Palestinian nationhood. They just deny the Israeli government the ability to make a bad agreement that will put Israel in danger.

    Posted by Akbar Palace | June 27, 2011, 6:32 pm
  82. Thanks Y. No offense nor insult intended to anyone. Just debating, exploring, clarifying, and seeking clarifications.
    The question always comes up as to how far back in history does one go? Each party will find a period when they were the kings and the others didn’t exist as an entity. Such a game is hollow. The future is the key. Respect for the aspirations of people as they stand now. Respect for what they consider to be their legitimate history.
    In the end, as I said earlier, religious and tribal fanaticism are the culprits, imho.
    There are enough enlightened folks on all sides who want to and know how to move forward. The challenge is to foil the underhanded sabotage of the extremists.

    Posted by Honest Patriot | June 27, 2011, 6:38 pm
  83. I can similarly ask: Why couldn’t this be an option in a menu of possible future outcomes?

    HP… Indeed you can! And why can’t you?

    In fact, it would not be that far off from reality. Today in Lebanon you have Baathist parties, SSNP, Islamist parties. All sorts of parties that don’t propagate a “Lebanese” national identity. The same, I assure you, is true amongst the Palestinians.

    These are not hypothetical situations.

    Posted by Gabriel | June 27, 2011, 6:41 pm
  84. Thanks, AP, for the response. I think we can leave it at that. Good exchange. Good debate.

    Posted by Honest Patriot | June 27, 2011, 6:42 pm
  85. Eureka! Restore the Ottoman Empire and all the troubles of the Middle East go away. There!

    Posted by Honest Patriot | June 27, 2011, 7:26 pm
  86. GK

    Its the most remarkable thing. I read everything and absolutely nothing. I secretly admit to going thru some of HK’s postings and if that’s something I can manage then 🙂

    On a more serious note. I am quite the broad minded fellow! I like to read everyone’s views, whether or not I agree with them.

    Posted by Gabriel | June 27, 2011, 7:29 pm
  87. HP

    I’m not sure if your intent is to be sarcastic, or or… But….

    We are not in the age of empires anymore, but unions. And don’t think for one moment that this is not an option favored by some people.

    You don’t need to scoff at peoples’ political viewpoints or take statements to absurd extremes. Your retort does not follow logically from my post.

    Posted by Gabriel | June 27, 2011, 7:35 pm
  88. To shave or not to shave … that is the question.

    Posted by R2D2 | June 27, 2011, 7:36 pm
  89. I don’t think I’ve disagreed with you, Gabe. I have one key mantra, and that is to shed the shackles of religious and tribal fanaticism, adopt freedom, equality, democracy and Human Rights. Success will follow.
    Seems to me that countries are splitting up rather than uniting, viz Sudan and, earlier, Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, the Soviet Union, etc.

    Posted by Honest Patriot | June 27, 2011, 7:42 pm
  90. HP,

    Thanks. Have you been checking out SC?? It’s a ZOO over there!

    Posted by Akbar Palace | June 27, 2011, 8:28 pm
  91. AP, what do you expect? There’s a revolution going on in Syria! I got confused there a long time ago but that’s partly because of the difficulty I find at understanding all that stuff. I’m waiting for the dust to settle.
    Or, for QN to explain things! It’s so much easier to read his analyses since they include usually the angle (important to me) of the impact on Lebanon.
    I also miss Alex’s contributions. The debates between Alex and AIG were always very instructive for an objective observer.

    Posted by Honest Patriot | June 28, 2011, 12:28 am
  92. There’s a revolution going on in Syria!

    Yes. When this thing started, I didn’t think there would be much pro-Assad sentiment; apparently there is. Syria seems divided, but across which line? The haves and the have-nots?

    I think the Syrian dividing line is both between the haves and the have-nots as well as between those that are afraid/fear of change.

    Posted by Akbar Palace | June 28, 2011, 7:34 am
  93. #93…HP Alex may be one of those “independents” in Damascus… 😛

    Posted by danny | June 28, 2011, 8:16 am
  94. It certainly is going to get interesting …

    – Cabinet statement by end of the week, inclusive of STL position
    – Aoun getting ready to inculpate March 14 members with crimes
    – STL indictment on the near horizon

    There will be mud!

    Posted by R2D2 | June 28, 2011, 11:15 am
  95. A diplomat is someone who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that you will look forward to the trip.
    Paraprosdokian… 🙂

    Posted by HK | June 28, 2011, 11:34 am
  96. The posture of the well-intentioned STL dunce is a stock character in Ziocon charade politicking. The assumption that the dunce is really “well-intentioned” is the privilege of the dominant power…

    Posted by HK | June 28, 2011, 12:07 pm
  97. I for one can’t wait for the STL indictment to “drop”…It’s been 5 years of this charade and I’ve said all there is to say on the matter, speculated all that I could. It’s time for the big “reveal” and then we can start a whole new round of speculations as to what comes next.

    Posted by Bad Vilbel | June 28, 2011, 12:37 pm
  98. HP……

    Of potential interest to you 🙂

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-13906169

    Posted by Gabriel | June 28, 2011, 1:16 pm

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