My good friend George Saghir, one of the best analysts of Syrian economic affairs, has written a thought-provoking essay for Joshua Landis’s Syria Comment, in which he argues that Syria is staring down the same shotgun barrel as virtually every other Arab nation. Unless it finds a way to radically increase economic activity and curb demographic trends, popular protests like the kind we have witnessed in Egypt and Tunisia are inevitable.
The solution? Syria must emulate Turkey, but this, George argues, will be much easier said than done:
For Syria to achieve Turkey’s per capita growth rate of the past 25 years, it must do two things: 1- It must grow its economy by a real inflation-adjusted 8.5% if population growth continues at 3.26%. 2- It can grow by a real inflation-adjusted 6.5% if it succeeds in slowing its population growth down to Turkey’s current level of 1.25%. Either option presents a formidable challenge and highlights the feat that Turkey has pulled off since 1980. Growing an economy at an inflation-adjusted rate of 8.5% is of course what China has been able to do recently (if you trust the country’s statisticians). Chinese planners have also been able to drop the country’s population growth rate to low of 0.63%.
I recommend you read the entire piece, and perhaps George will agree to write something about Lebanon’s economic/demographic challenges for QN. As far as I know, he’s much more optimistic about Syria’s little cousin.
UPDATE: When it rains it pours… Here’s another very interesting piece about Syria by Gary Gambill, editor of Mideast Monitor and one of the smartest commentators on Levantine politics. I make a point of trying to read and re-read everything Gary writes; even when I disagree with him, I find his commentaries to be extremely sharp.
Qifa Nabki 
QN, thanks for the articles. George’s essay is great and highly readable.
His suggestions of reducing fertility rate and increasing real per capita GDP are excellent text book answers yet highly unachievable in the short term. They definitely should be pursued with urgency. BUT, he missed mentioning real and immediate reforms to the whole economic system and the reporting of income. What would the GDP be if the oil income was reported transparently for example, or the double book keeping methods for companies was not needed anymore?
What would the growth be if monopolies on businesses were lifted and all these youths had a fair chance of starting up a business?
Posted by IHTDA | February 8, 2011, 12:32 pmIHDTA,
The points you raise are of course valid. If you implying that today,s growth is even lower than reported numbers indicate then the urgency and need for what i suggest is even more pronounced. As i said in my note, syria and the rest of the arab world need to fire on ALL cylinders. This very much includes what you said and much more. The challenges are immense but not impossible.
Dear QN,
I am a big fan of yours as you know. Thank you for linking the article on your lovely forum too
Posted by G.Saghir | February 8, 2011, 1:13 pmSyria’s strength is the fantastic Syrian people, who are kind, incredibly hard working, smart, dedicated to family values, well educated, deeply religious and very much in tune with Arab Nationalism…
The problem of Syria is its “eternal” Leadership since 1970.
What Mr. Saghir said is all well and good. It’s well known for years and years…
What Mr. Saghir fails to say is the institutionalized corruption that exists in Syria much like in Egypt and more…
What most “court pundits” fail to say also is that Syrian youth yearn for freedom, democracy and the rule of law…They definitely do not like the emergency laws of the jungle in Syria or Egypt…The youth would like equal opportunity and access to jobs and a say in the running of their Government…
There exists a very good industrial base in Syria, thanks to Private initiative and the smarts of its business community. Government can claim no credit for that growth of the industrial base.
The Syrian pundits will do well to tackle real issues facing Syria’s longing for Freedom, and it’s definitely not covered by the likes of Sami Moubayed, showering Assad with compliments…
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/MB09Ak04.html
Posted by HK | February 8, 2011, 3:08 pmIf Asad could not deliver significant economic growth while Obama is in power, he is unlikely to be able do so in the future.
An uprising in Syria is not the only long term option. It is quite possible that Asad and his regime will just grind Syria into dust as Mugabe and his regime did in Zimbabwe. The complete apathy in Syria to what is happening in Egypt and Tunisia lends credence to such a scenario.
Posted by AIG | February 8, 2011, 3:34 pmThe political and demographic problems of Syria are shared by practically each Arab country. The Arab world has one of the most high rates of population growth in the world.
Allow me to suggest briefly that a drop of fertility rate is difficult will not drop through the market forces unaccompanied by a brisk improvement in economic performance. But it would be difficult to expect a decent economic performance under an authoritarian regime and a system rife with corruption. That can only imply that low fertility rates cannot be accomplished in this case except through a strict activist population policy. Anything short of that will not not work.
It is also helpful to remind some that Syria’s food insecurity is on the rise because of the misguided agricultural policies that have allowed and even promoted desertification. Syria’s attempts to provide additional food to its growing population have created water scarcities aggravated by droughts.
Many studies have shown rather conclusively a strong link between freedom and economic performance. Planned economies have a very poor record and thus are very unlikely to work in Syria whose bureaucratic regimes have stifled innovation and creativity in all fields. Maybe large families are peoples revenge:-)
Posted by ghassan karam | February 8, 2011, 5:00 pmElias,
I also try to read anything writen by Gary Gambill, one of the calmest and smartest Mideast analysts.
But he got it wrong this time.
1) Intentions:
If Assad or his late father were not serious about signing a peace agreement, you would have read about it in one of the books published by the many US mediators over the past 20 years. None of them blamed the Syrians for not being interested in finalizing the peace process and signing that hard to reach agreement.
It is always the Israelis who walked aay at the last minute
2) Ability to deliver:
I think Gary is turning the “Sunni” Arabs into some monster that does not exist… definitely not at the size of an unbeatable monster.
Most Sunnis will enjoy the return of occupied Arab lands and will enjoy the expected peace dividends …
And finally … “the regime” will not last in its present form more than 10 years. It will have to reform itself gradually … The process started (economically mostly), but will expand into other areas, you will see.
Today for example they removed the ban on Facebook, Youtube, Blogspot, and many other sites.
Posted by Alex | February 8, 2011, 5:25 pmThank you, Elias and Alex, for the kind words. Alex, my intention was NOT to suggest that Sunni Arabs are the problem. On the contrary, the implication of my argument is that a representative Sunni-led government wouldn’t have Assad’s strategic constraints (because it wouldn’t need to worry that the intense opposition of a minority of Sunnis to peace with Israel would synergize with broader sectarian resentments).
As for past Israeli-Syrian negotiations, I’m only saying that Assad can’t agree to the minimal terms demanded by Israel today (ditching the alliance with Iran, normalized trade relations, resettlement of refugees, etc.), particularly now that full-fledged American recognition of Syrian hegemony in Lebanon, aid, etc. is no longer being added as a sweetener. I’m not passing judgment on whether Israeli terms are justified.
Posted by Gary C. Gambill | February 8, 2011, 6:22 pmDear Gary,
First I want to say that in addition to Alex and Elias, this morning Joshua and a number of friends discussed your article (by email) and everyone expressed a serious dose of admiration.
This is a complex question but I will try to explain in half a page
– The leadership in Syria does not worry about a minority of Sunnis (or non Sunnis) not being happy with with a well negotiated peace agreement that preserves Syria’s rights. They would only worry if the majority of Syrians opposed the agreement.
– As relations with the Unites States improve (a logical assumption if peace agreement is signed) Syria’s relations with America’s Arab allies will also improve. This will change the Middle East…. at the regional level and at the level of individual systems of government in each of the countries in the region.
I think it is a serious mistake to assume that the current conditions will continue to exist. It is well known that the Syrians told the different American and European envoys that after peace they expect everything to change, which obviously also applies to the question of Syria’s willingness to meet Israeli demands regarding Syria’s current form of relations with Hezbollah, Iran and Hamas.
How will everything change? … that takes a long answer. Think of it as Syria’s version of “The New Middle East”
– I am not convinced that Syria will sign a separate peace treaty with Israel. Syria will push for an international conference. Walid Mouallem already said that Syria will not negotiate while Palestinians are suffering (under the gun). But even if they did, they will not turn into an obedient Mubark or an Omar Suleiman who used to call Israel every single day.
If Israel settles with the Palestinians and the Lebanese, then Syria will be happy to call Tel Aviv every day and discuss regional issues.
I think Israel recognized that the Syrians, while talking only about the Golan, have their eyes on “comprehensive peace” … and the problem is that Israeli leaders are always trying to create a new Middle East that allows them to not return all the pre-67 territories.
As I said, the Middle East is changing. Israel will have to either build more walls and decide to live among eternal enemies, or will have to choose comprehensive peace.
This is my opinion, but I am convinced the Syrians are on the same wavelength.
Posted by Alex | February 8, 2011, 7:28 pmAlex,
I think we’re largely in agreement on the core issues. You write that Assad “will not turn into an obedient Mubark or an Omar Suleiman.” My contention is that even if he wanted to be Mubarak (and was offered everything under the sun to sweeten the deal or beaten senseless by Washington), he couldn’t be Mubarak and maintain power. There may be a lot of reasons why this is so, but I would suggest that the sectarian composition of the regime alone is sufficient to make this a 100% impossibility (maybe for that reason we should all be thankful he’s an Alawite!).
I think we also agree that there is little possibility (justifiably or not) that Israeli public consensus will anytime soon accept a settlement that demands anything less of Assad. Netanyahu, Assad, and Obama may find it desirable for their own political reasons to relaunch talks (there was a great article awhile back on nowlebanon.com that made this argument), but I can’t imagine it will lead anywhere.
Anyway, my article was intended to underscore that the outcome envisioned by engagers and disengagers alike is a fantasy, with very pathological effects – appeasement of Syrian ambitions in Lebanon under Clinton, an immensely counterproductive effort to intimidate Assad into pulling a Qaddafi under Bush (which, among other things, virtually ensured the self-destruction of March 14).
Gary
Posted by Gary C. Gambill | February 8, 2011, 8:23 pmThe trouble with slamming the brakes on the birthrate is that you end up with a demographic bulge and eventually a huge “grey problem.”
China in 25 years will be greyer than Japan is becoming today, and still not as rich.
Of course, China had no other choice. I’m not faulting their decision, I’m merely pointing out that they solved one problem by back-loading their society with another.
Given that much of the world (and indeed the entire developed world!) today actually
faces a long-term demographic deficit, shouldn’t we at least ask the question of whether demographic surplus might not be a long-term competitive advantage?
Time to revise the conventional development wisdom of the past 40 years?
Posted by Roland | February 8, 2011, 9:36 pmRoland says:
” shouldn’t we at least ask the question of whether demographic surplus might not be a long-term competitive advantage?”
Absolutely not. No one with any clear understanding of what are the real problems associated with demographic overpopulation would ever contemplate equating a so called “grey problem” with that of carrying capacity.
Let me also take this opportunity to warn against the mistaken belief that is implied in some posts that lowering fertility rate brings about an automatic stability to the human population. Far from it, at times it could take up to 70 years after a replacement fertility rate of 2.1 is reached, before such a stability is achieved. I believe that this would be the likely case in Syria because of its current population structure.
Posted by Ghassan Karam | February 8, 2011, 10:04 pmThanks Gary. We do agree on the points you mentioned. I think we might disagree on future outlook.
Elias knows that I happen to expect a whole different looking Middle East within 5-10 years.
(Elias: I dropped it from my 7-14 years prediction of 2007)
Roland,
What is wrong with Gray hair? … Ghassan has lots of that and he is still a damn good economist 😉
Ghassan,
Can you please explain the concept of stability in this case? … what will take 70 years to stabilize?
Earlier, I posted on SC the following:
Fertility rates are not the only cause of “the problem”. over the past decade, Syria’s infant mortality rates dropped dramatically. It is currently 16/1000 well below the world average of 49.
In comparison, the rate for Turkish babies are much higher, at 27/1000
(UN IMR data)
Also, Syria’s life expectancy is now at 74.1 years … considerably better than before and above world average of 67.2 years.
Posted by Alex | February 9, 2011, 12:56 amI am, yet again, astonished about how dull and shallow the knowledge of so called “smart commentators” about the Alawites is!! Mr. Gambill let me tell you that, with your marvelous “treatise” about Syria, you have contributed to the millennium-old persecution of the Alawites!! Let me also share with you that some Alawite individuals have some power in Syria, including the Assad family, not the entire Alawite sect. Do you Mr. Gambill have any statistics about the ratio of Alawites in the Syrian government, amongst businessmen, politicians, etc.? Thank you Mr. Gambill, the only missing thing in the record of persecution of the Alawites is to be blamed for ruling Syria!!! Being a descendent of an Alawite family, although I am an atheist, I can only begin to try to imagine the feeling of persecution the Jews suffered and continue to suffer from.
Posted by Avi Salam | February 9, 2011, 2:38 amAlex.
The human population of a country/region will continue to grow despite the fact that a replacement fertility rate of 2.1 is achieved for up to 70 years. The determining factor is the population pyramid, the younger the population then the longer is the period of time required a stable populatio/no growth is achieved.
Posted by Ghassan Karam | February 9, 2011, 8:25 amThis is like a nice cozy fraternity here where everyone has that wonderful homogeneous ‘sameness’…
Much of US involvement in the ME involves deception (of others and our own US population), willful refusal to deal with rational actors, and the exploitation of a particular set of political networks…. to spread never ending disinformation…which is typical of Gambill or Stratfor…. [ Stratfor is CIA disinformation wall to wall, Texas funded and Texas based ]
Assad certainly got off too easy here… The number one problem of Syria is the Alawite’s systematic corruption spanning decades, a la Mubarak or worse….
A bunch of special interests does not a strategy make. For outsiders like Gambill, Stratfor, and others, Washington seems like a talking head gallery/echo chamber…for compounded CIA Disinformation…and Gambill’s stint with USCFL few years back is a glaring example….
Sweet words and noble rhetoric conveyed in “academic” statements are meaningless and reveal nothing about real US/Israeli intentions….
Once America adopted the ZIOCONIC view of the world, America suffered from an isolation and resentment that has spread across the world but most severely in the Middle East….and it is getting worse by the day, since the Neocon left behind network in DC is still active…. Fabricated intelligence is often the handmaiden of stupid policies, and the US is still in denial….
The people of Syria should finally get the opportunity to actively shape their own future without corrupt elites in league with outside forces continuing to successfully be able to hinder true independent paths of development that benefit more than a tiny dictatorial Alawite minority desperately clinging to power in Syria….
Everything here is filtered through ultra-political prisms that distort what might or might not be the best thing for the country in question, as far as Syrian & US “court Media” Gambill and his ilk are concerned…. Syria’s problem is not just in the Party structure, but in the military-security apparatus of the Assad Dictatorship and its utter corruption, which is well known in Washington for ages….where it is policy not to offend the regime of the ASSAD Mafia in Damascus, often doing the bidding of CIA/MOSSAD in various ways, especially within the confines of the Infamous White House Murder INC, and its criminal machinations in the Levant since 2000….[ Gary C. Gambill was part and parcel of that criminal disinformation enterprise while in USCFL.]
Still, he could get off easy as the darker side of Syrian involvement in Lebanon is (somewhat) plausibly deniable for now…
The two state solution now, of course, is chaff in the wind….and continuing an endless “Process” of peace has been proven to be a farce….whether comprehensive or strictly with Syria…The most likely outcome from this turmoil is for the Israelis to rekindle the “Jordanian option”….
The imperial system Gambill is working so hard to prevent from collapsing, based around networks of individuals and interests binding the US, Britain, Israel, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and their more minor pawns in the region, looks pretty shaky now….
That area has been a mess for hundreds of years and the recent one is over a century old and could continue a few more. Hopefully, Americans will start to recognize that propping up dictators is not all that productive anymore. However, unless there are strong local civic institutions in Syria, Egypt, etc. full democracy is just a dream and can become a nightmare….
Posted by HK | February 9, 2011, 8:38 amTimes change and so do circumstances, but it would be interesting to know why Egypt failed so miserably? The high birth rate was for sure a factor in Egypt’s dismal economic performance, but I do not believe this to be a surmountable problem. Plenty of countries in the history of the world have achieved high growth rates at the same time as having a high birth rate.
What more can Syria learn from Turkey and Egypt, or any country for that matter? I’m sure there’s a lot to learn. Ghassan Karam is of quite right when saying that economic performance is positively correlated to level of freedom. Certainly an educated people will better the economic performance. The sanctions on Syria are another factor preventing investments from reaching Syria, and even if there were no sanctions the magnitude of corruption and other factors influencing the business environment would make it difficult for the Syrian government to meet its ambitious FDI-target.
I say work a lot on educating the people and invest heavily in infrastructure, both physical (roads, electricity etc) and non-physical (judiciary, laws and regulations etc). These two are the backbone of any advanced country in the world and from it stems so much else.
Posted by Pas Cool | February 9, 2011, 9:29 amThe only solution for Syria is the overthrow of Assad and his regime. Nothing else will work.
Posted by anonymous | February 9, 2011, 9:39 amAvi,
One of the problems with writing short op-eds is that it’s impossible to clarify every point. I wrote in the article that “critics of the Assad regime often make far too much” of the regime’s domination by Alawites, and should have added a footnote explaining what I meant.* It is not true that the Alawite community AS A WHOLE dominates Syria, nor is it true that the Alawite community AS A WHOLE derives a substantially disproportionate share of the spoils (in fact, I make a point of noting that Syria’s development model is explicitly designed to cut across sectarian boundaries). But is it not true that the governing elite (by which I mean those who have real power to decide major policy matters) is dominated by people who happen (if only by virtue of their kinship to Assad) to be Alawites? At any rate, I apologize if my article gave the wrong impression.
Gary
Posted by Gary C. Gambill | February 9, 2011, 9:46 amAIG@4 is absolutely right in his assessment of the Assad Mafia in Damascus.
In response to Gary C. Gambill’s promotion of the lies of the War Criminal Donald Rumsfeld and his new book on his website, this would be a good beginning to denounce the utter disinformation by the Neocons, Gambill and their Ilk, hellbent on perpetuating the deceptions of GWB, and the machinations of the odious White House Murder INC,…
http://univercia.blogspot.com/2011/02/rumsfeld-lies-about-iraq-war-on-terror.html
Posted by HK | February 9, 2011, 10:57 amDear Garry,
Please let me know if I understand you correctly:
1- You think that Assad (being an Alawi) will be way too careful and hawkish in his negotiations with Israel to ensure that his Sunni majority does not accuse him of selling out
2- This would make a peace deal less possible as Israel will not sign a peace deal that is too favorable to Syria.
3- Therefore you are calling for a Sunni leadership in Damascus which need not be too hawkish when it negotiates over the Golan.
4- This is better for Israel and hence has a higher chance of being signed
Posted by G.Saghir | February 9, 2011, 11:09 am1- The Assads have already sold out to Israel the Golan and everything else, except the continued struggle over Lebanon, in payment for the Golan, which will never be given back to Syria, no matter who is in power there…The Sunnis and Kurds of Syria know that much and more about the corrupt Assad Mafia….
If revelation that Mubarak’s family’s net worth might be as much as $70 billion ignites the fires of anarchy in the hearts of Egypt’s large poverty-stricken underclass, then countries with even larger underclasses, riddled by class divisions should prepare for the same upheaval, only worse… Syria, for instance, with a dozen or more Assad Family&cronies multi-Billionaires and nearly 15 Million working class and abject poverty stricken, pissed-off individuals is a ticking time bomb…
Any serious effort to bring the international war criminals to justice would begin like this, with dedicated protesters hounding government representatives wherever they show-up… Like Bush canceling his recent trip to Switzerland out of fear of a symbolic public “arrest” for war crimes…, Netanyahu and his cabinet should not be able to travel, out of fear of public embarrassment and the political backlash that such negative exposure which that would incur… The same goes for the rest of the Israeli dogs of war…
Think about it, everyone…we need to link all of the separate national struggles into one global international war Resistance. This is the way to stop it. We must all band together for the sake of the human race. We have to bring all the US war criminals and all the Dictators to justice, and this is the first step on that road…
Posted by HK | February 9, 2011, 11:41 amHK,
I will do all what is in my power to protect your right to have any point of view on any subject irrespective of whether I agree with it or not. Surprisingly I do agree with many of the conclusions that you try to push but I object often to the rhetoric and the analysis. Be that as it may I would like for you to explain one glaring contradiction in what you are constantly advocating : How can you worship Elie Hobeika, the alleged mastermind of one of the most gruesome massacre in the history of Lebanon, with your constant criticism and bashing of Zionism and Neocons?
Posted by ghassan karam | February 9, 2011, 12:17 pm“Mubarak’s wealth 70b$… Experts say… Sources estimate…” problems solved!
If Mubarak’s wealth is that much, we have to assume that the Assad’s wealth is more (Hafez & Bashar)! This can easily sponsor any kind of growth!
I’ve tried to search for the sources of these estimates but in vein. 70b$ is a huge sum and can’t be hidden under a pillow. It’s interesting that all search results on the Internet with regards to Mubarak’s wealth were dated recently.
I’m not saying that he didn’t accumulate wealth, but come on 70bn$??? More than the Lebanese (Carlos slim), NO WAY…
HK (EH), are you just quoting the media or you have some references I can refer to 😉
Posted by IHTDA | February 9, 2011, 12:20 pmGhassan@22
I have already answered your question before and I will repeat what I said again and again…I was there!
The most accurate and precise account of exactly what happened in Sep. of 1982 can be found in the book of Alain Menargues: Les Secrets de la guerre du Liban. The “alleged Master mind” is definitely not Elie Hobeika and ALL the MSM accounts of that tragic event have been regurgitated callously ever since. The late Elie Hobeika has never ever been accused of any crime in a court of law, never indicted about any crimes whatsoever, and should be left alone to rest in Peace, now that he has been cowardly assassinated by the infamous White House Murder INC, in 2002 at the advent of the neocons and their sordid plans…and for very specific reasons having nothing to do with what you are alluding to, but that’s another story…
For more details see this:
http://newhk.blogspot.com/search/label/AMAN.
http://newhk.blogspot.com/2011/01/components-of-white-house-murder-incs.html
I have also said Ghassan that we have been deeply hurt, wounded, and are still in mourning for the loss of Elie and his 3 wonderful companions…. NINE years after the fact….and the wound is still very deep indeed…Or do you advocate that only the Hariri’s have a right to cry foul….
Discharging from a much deeper wound…which has befallen upon us unjustly from USA/Israel and their criminal Ziocons and their henchmen in the Levant…. It’s the least we can do, in memory of our beloved fallen comrades, savagely assassinated by the Infamous White House Murder INC, to voice our determined and persistent disgust…and we have yet to disclose 10% of what we know first hand…about these despicable criminals…
Posted by HK | February 9, 2011, 1:18 pmGhassan,
It could be HK’s guilt trip that he was at the camp.
Posted by RandomThoughtOfTheDay | February 9, 2011, 1:19 pmGhassan@22
Suffice it to say that If I was not 1000% sure about what I am saying re: the infamous White House Murder INC, and everything else related to that since 2000, I would not be so determined…, despite the rhetoric…and I can assure you that we have done our homework in that regard, since January 24th 2002!
@25, don’t psychoanalyze matters, I was not AT the camps…
Posted by HK | February 9, 2011, 1:32 pm… and Ghassan thought this blog was heading into oblivion 🙂
Posted by RandomThoughtOfTheDay | February 9, 2011, 1:33 pmI second what Ghassan mentioned about the glaring HK contradictions. I would also add that Elie Hobeika’s crimes are not limited to Sabra and Shatila, he ascended to power from a street thug and a hired killer in the right wing Lebanese militia and killed many innocent Lebanese during the civil war. at the end he prostrated enough to the Syrian Assad Mafia to become a Minister in a Syrian sponsored Lebanese Government.
HK how do you explain idolizing this killer.
And if you got more time to cut and paste, we would like to hear “your” views on Iran and the democratic model projected when the Mullahs crushed the green revolution, but wait let me guess that revolution was the works of the CIA/Mosad
Posted by V | February 9, 2011, 1:36 pmWell, where were you then ?
You’re beginning to sound like a false witness.
Posted by RandomThoughtOfTheDay | February 9, 2011, 1:44 pmSectarian though the argument may be, it is none-the-less a realist position. I am talking here of Gary’s position.
I really don’t think there ought to be any debate on the longevity of the Assad clan based purely on “sectarian” affiliation, had it not endorsed so strongly a pan-Arab agenda.
Where I have issues with the argument is that the secular face of the Minority Rules, did not, and never will tame extremism in the region- whether in Syria or in Eypt.
Posted by Gabriel | February 9, 2011, 1:46 pmI will no longer vote for anyone that does not submit his life during tenure in office to having a camera crew record every waking and sleeping moment of his life, while I am paying his rent and transportation expenses.
Posted by RandomThoughtOfTheDay | February 9, 2011, 2:02 pmHere’s to turning the tables on George Orwell’s 1984.
Cheers !
Posted by RandomThoughtOfTheDay | February 9, 2011, 2:04 pms I said before, you are entitled to believe in whatever you choose but you are not entitled to fabricate facts.
I find it despicable to glorify EH and yet at the same time rage against the injustice to the Palestinians. Make up your mind, is EH a hero or are the Palestinians victims of an international community that has insisted on applying a double standard? You cannot have it both ways. Neo Nazis are free to worship Hitler but have no business decrying the holocaust.
Posted by ghassan karam | February 9, 2011, 2:36 pmBy the way Qifa … what’s the symbolism of the Arguileh smoking cow ?
Posted by RandomThoughtOfTheDay | February 9, 2011, 3:01 pmGK#14…
Won’t they all simply immigrate to O-Rop-Pa!
Posted by Gabriel | February 9, 2011, 3:29 pmDoes anyone on this blog have any advice on how to deal with an intrusive mother in law ?
Posted by RandomThoughtOfTheDay | February 9, 2011, 3:38 pmGabriel #35,
I know that you are being sarcastic but the answer to your question is No, they will not pack up and go to O-Rop-Pa ( I love this spelling:-)) since most of the net additions to population is usually among the poor, unskilled and uneducated.
But not to worry about this, there are plans in the world that will get the Europeans to the poorer countries by building large retirement communities in say Tunis, Moroco, Syria … where the cost of taking care of the elderly would not need as many Euros and where such reverse migration will help find jobs for the “local” population. I do hope that if any of these plans materialize, and I susoect that they would, that we do not wind up creating European Islands similar to what Aramco has been doing in Saudi Arabia for over 70 years.
Posted by Ghassan Karam | February 9, 2011, 3:50 pm@RTOTD #36
That is one of the best “Random Thoughts” that I have read in a long time. lol.
See if they’re building a stadium nearby, and have a chat with the cement contractor.
Posted by htj | February 9, 2011, 3:57 pmHey hey
I ezpect full credit for Peter’s new incarnation! LoL
(Although we should be careful lest QN boots us out for veering off-topic).
Pete, perhaps you should sneak a new wikileak to al-akhbar suggesting your inlaws are part of a movement to oust the Assads 😉
Posted by Gabriel | February 9, 2011, 4:09 pmHK,
I remember visiting Beirut when Mr. Hobeika was assassinated. I recall very clearly there was a war crimes trial being built against Ariel Sharon at the time for the Sabra & Chatilla massacres. EH was supposed to be a key witness in this trial – I believe the case was built on his testimony. The official media story was the Israeli’s assassinated Hobeika cause he turned against them. This seemed very plausible to me at the time.
Yet, you accuse the Syrians of assassinating Mr. Hobeika on your blog. Or do you suggest that Syria/Israel/Al CIAda are component parts (profit centers?) of the infamous White House Murder Inc?
You also suggest that Hizbollah is the sole force standing in the way of US hegemony and global takeover. Two questions here:
1) Does this extend to Iran?
2) Is it too much of a stretch to think that Hizbollah is also involved in the deception and is also a component of the infamous White House Murder Inc? After all they now play the needed bogeyman to Israel.
Just trying to get some clarity. Are there any sides to this battle? How many? Or is it only one side constantly instigating the battle to keep world citizenry anesthetized? If this is the case than you and Random are pushing the same agenda: Turning the tables on George Orwell’s 1984.
Forgive all the questions but I find this plot very interesting.
As an aside, I like al CIAda and hope to use it next time I get questioned trying to enter the US – can’t wait to see the look on the face of the immigration man. That’s if my wife doesn’t cut my tongue off first! 🙂
Posted by Johnny | February 9, 2011, 4:32 pmRTOTD, you need to add an “s” after the second “t” in your moniker “…Thought[s]..”
Posted by Honest Patriot | February 9, 2011, 4:41 pmSo what’s wrong with these pictures?
http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/NewsDesk.nsf/0/8df26ecad7f37417c2257832005f570f/Body/0.82?OpenElement&FieldElemFormat=jpg
Posted by Honest Patriot | February 9, 2011, 5:37 pmHow many (what percentage of) Lebanese think along the same way as Boutros Harb?
From Naharnet: http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/NewsDesk.nsf/getstory?openform&2FE1E03EE970B069C22578320058997B
Harb: Should Suleiman and Miqati Form One-Sided Government then We Will Become the Opposition
Caretaker Labor Minister Butros Harb stated on Wednesday that the March 14 camp will become the opposition in Lebanon should President Michel Suleiman and Prime Minister-designate Najib Miqati approve the formation of a one-sided government.
He told Tele Liban: “Should they choose against such a decision, then they should find a way to establish a national unity government.”
He said that the March 14 forces will cooperate with a moderate government, “but if a government with provocative figures is formed … then we have a weapon, which is the people.”
“President Suleiman knows what he should do and he has privileges and responsibilities,” Harb added.
Furthermore, the minister said: “The March 14 forces are still ready to present blood for Lebanon’s sovereignty and freedom … our battle was against the arms possession and we want all arms in Lebanon to be controlled by one authority.”
“When the majority shifted to the other camp, we were ready and are still prepared to deal with the government based on what is suitable to us and today the premier-designate is being subject to pressure by the sides that appointed him and the March 14 camp is committed to the democratic game,” he continued.
“We thought that it was necessary to give Miqati a chance and he was receptive, but he officially announced that he will only commit to protecting the Resistance,” Harb revealed.
Protecting the resistance could be from Israel or from the Special Tribunal for Lebanon, he added.
“There can be no sound rule in Lebanon in light of illegitimate weapons and we are counting on the national dialogue to resolve this issue,” the minister noted.
Posted by Honest Patriot | February 9, 2011, 5:45 pmCousins?
– http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/NewsDesk.nsf/0/6600b2bfebf6cafbc2257832005ace29/Body/0.82?OpenElement&FieldElemFormat=jpg
–
Posted by Honest Patriot | February 9, 2011, 5:59 pmMarch 8 resigned from the government, bringing its downfall, because the government refused to withdraw recognition of and support to the STL. Doesn’t this imply that unless the new government is set-up in such a manner that it will proceed with such withdrawal of recognition and support March 8 would not participate and would not allow any new government to govern by taking to the streets and occupying Beiurt’s Central District as it did in 2006?
By the same token, if the new government commits as a precondition to March 8 joining (which would appear to be an obvious requirement of March 8) to denounce the STL, then March 14 will (a) refuse to join the government (as we see happening) and (b) likely find ways to prevent such official denouncement by creating conditions and claims against the “new” government as being an illegal government.
Seems like a confrontation is inevitable no matter which way one looks at it.
The only avoidance of conflict is if either March 8 or March 14 retreats on their principles, which are, respectively, to denounce the STL and to not denounce the STL.
To denounce or not to denounce, that is the question.
And the answer is…
Posted by Honest Patriot | February 9, 2011, 6:07 pmhmm, how can one avoid those automatic faces?
that section should read:
…. (which would appear to be an obvious requirement of March 8 ) to denounce the STL,…
The “8” followed by a close-parenthesis “)” comes up as a face with glasses. Wierd.
8)
Posted by Honest Patriot | February 9, 2011, 6:09 pmHere’s a deliberate thought of the day:
With 6 consecutive comments, I feel like the sole survivor of a nuclear catastrophe!
Where IS everybody?
Posted by Honest Patriot | February 9, 2011, 6:11 pmWe have to bring all the US war criminals and all the Dictators to justice, and this is the first step on that road…
HK,
Can you supply us a short list (say 10) of ME leaders we should AVOID bringing to justice.
I don’t want to waste our precious resources on a ME leader who isn’t guilty of any wrong-doing, like Elie Hobeika, for example…
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/elie-hobeika-ladykiller-and-bloodsoaked-war-criminal-668184.html
Posted by Akbar Palace | February 9, 2011, 6:22 pmHP:
In my humble opinion, I don’t think a big chunk of “M8” is opposed to the STL. Aoun is being opportunistic, and what else can one expect in a “democracy”.
Posted by Gabriel | February 9, 2011, 6:25 pmHP,
Probably you know that i have been an advocate of a single colour cabinet for years and I have often argued so. Know that the shoe is on the other foot my position is still the same. To argue for a single colour cabinet when March 14 was in charge of the premiership and to oppose it when Mikati is the PM would be the height of hypocrisy. I have restated some of my views again a few days ago:
http://rationalrepublic.blogspot.com/2011/02/lebanon-single-colour-cabinet-and.html
Posted by Ghassan Karam | February 9, 2011, 7:43 pmThe future. How far ahead are we looking? I would think Syria along with Egypt and Lebanon will be dominated by religious parties…Be that Muslim Brotherhood or Hizballah.
Assad will not be able to hold on to power if the dictators of the Arab world fall in a domino effect.
How Israel would react to a changing environment has a bearing as well on when and how fast Syria crumbles. IMHO Israel has been the sugar Daddy and protector of the Assad family.
Gigi is in the cement business with HA… 😀
Posted by danny | February 9, 2011, 7:48 pmGhassan,
I’m with you on that one. I think a one-color cabinet is the way to go, even if I don’t like said color.
Gotta love the hypocrisy of Aoun lately.
At least have the decency not to open your mouth, man! I still dream of the day some enterprising soul put together a video clip of this idiot’s contradictions and hypocrisy.
Posted by Bad Vilbel | February 9, 2011, 8:03 pmBV,
I think that you are right, someone should take the time and compile these various contradictory statements.
Posted by Ghassan Karam | February 9, 2011, 8:08 pmI am simply dumbfounded every time I look at Naharnet or whatever morning news and see his statements. Although, to be fair, he’s not the only one. All Lebanese politicians are hypocrites. But he’s the most glaring.
Posted by Bad Vilbel | February 9, 2011, 8:34 pmCome on BV…
I’m sure if we’re giving trophies away, Walid Jumblatt would be miles ahead of the rest!
Posted by Gabriel | February 9, 2011, 9:14 pmoooh I dunno about that Gabriel, there is a fine line between re inventing and contradicting.
the difference bieng one is aware of the contradictions but does it anyway and the other has amnesia.
But maybe Aoun hasnt earned that stature yet of the ultimate survivor-changing alliances according to the winds of change-perhaps he needs a little more time to catch up to Jumbo who has re defined Survivalist politics.
Posted by Maverick | February 10, 2011, 12:14 amOf course All here and company have not yet explained just why the US supported the Syrian occupation of Lebanon for 30 odd years ….(remember that?), or just why the US gave a green light to the Israelis to invade in 1982 , 93, 96, 2006, (remember that?), or…why the US cut and ran like cowards in 83…, or what did they say to the LF in 84…? only to do exactly the opposite in 86…, Or….the actions of the Infamous White House Murder INC, from 2002 to 2008, Or….
ALL what is said about Mr. Elie Hobeika is pure hearsay with the obvious intent of further demonizing Elie unfairly, because none of you really knows anything about the man and his real record during the long war…
http://hk-elie-hobeika.blogspot.com/2011/01/blog-post.html
http://newhk.blogspot.com/2011/01/rip-elie-you-are-in-our-hearts-and.html
On the other hand you March14th idols’ record is well established and well documented…
Samir Geagea was behind many atrocious deliberate assassinations that are too numerous to even count: Tony Frangieh and his family, kids and about 21 innocent people. This particular hit was also orchestrated by the Gemayels, with a very heavy Mossad input. Geagea also assassinated a sitting Sunni Prime Minister by the name of Rashid Karame. Geagea also assassinated Dany Chamoun, his family and kids. Geagea also lined up against the wall with a firing squad, many Lebanese Army officers during his battles with Michel Aoun in 1988/89 with hundreds of casualties. Geagea also launched an insurrection against comrades in arms in 1986 to secure total control over his sector of the country, whereby over 650 young Christian combatants lost their lives in a futile battle of wills. Geagea blew up a Patriarchate and a Church killing and maiming many innocent by-standers…Geagea stole hundreds of Millions of USD from the coffers of the LF. Geagea was tried and convicted in 94 for some of those crimes and was sentenced for three consecutive life sentences and served 11 years in solitary confinement. He was recently Pardoned in 2005 following American/CIA machinations, because CIA needed his “services” again and has re-launched his political party and other related CIA/subversive activities etc. confronting again the policies of GMA [ General Michel Aoun ] in a political rematch of sorts…
The US takes the same failed projects and US puppet personalities…draws similarly eerie plans from the past…and seems to always take off the “shelves” past operations for an Encore…The end result is all around us with what is taking place today all over the ME…and from Quetta to Darfur…
My view is that nothing can be done about US Foreign policy until the American people wake up and take charge of their Government again, throwing all the rascals out….
I understand you were distracted, far away and busy, these were times when events were moving faster then any of you could keep pace with…
To deny the essential hubris of the everlasting, all conquering Self was always to hold dear something older, some vague memory of higher ideals, greater meaning….History will be fair to our fallen Heroes no matter what is thrown at them by the gullible ignorant few.
http://univercia2langley.blogspot.com/2010/12/proxy-cia-militia-skunks-geageas-lf.html
http://elie-hobeika.blogspot.com/2009/05/1995-2-25.html
Posted by HK | February 10, 2011, 3:37 amMr. Muhanna, you are being unfair because the level of outrageous accusations leveled here that you have tolerated…against someone who is no longer here to defend himself, and you’re not allowing the rebuttal…?
Freedom of speech…!!!
Posted by HK | February 10, 2011, 4:53 amOf course All here and company have not yet explained just why the US supported the Syrian occupation of Lebanon for 30 odd years ….(remember that?), or just why the US gave a green light to the Israelis to invade in 1982 , 93, 96, 2006, (remember that?), or…why the US cut and ran like cowards in 83…, or what did they say to the LF in 84…? only to do exactly the opposite in 86…, Or….the actions of the Infamous White House Murder INC, from 2002 to 2008, Or….
ALL what is said about Mr. Elie Hobeika is pure hearsay with the obvious intent of further demonizing Elie unfairly, because none of you really knows anything about the man and his real record during the long war…
http://hk-elie-hobeika.blogspot.com/2011/01/blog-post.html
http://newhk.blogspot.com/2011/01/rip-elie-you-are-in-our-hearts-and.html
On the other hand you March14th idols’ record is well established and well documented…
Samir Geagea was behind many atrocious deliberate assassinations that are too numerous to even count: Tony Frangieh and his family, kids and about 21 innocent people. This particular hit was also orchestrated by the Gemayels, with a very heavy Mossad input. Geagea also assassinated a sitting Sunni Prime Minister by the name of Rashid Karame. Geagea also assassinated Dany Chamoun, his family and kids. Geagea also lined up against the wall with a firing squad, many Lebanese Army officers during his battles with Michel Aoun in 1988/89 with hundreds of casualties. Geagea also launched an insurrection against comrades in arms in 1986 to secure total control over his sector of the country, whereby over 650 young Christian combatants lost their lives in a futile battle of wills. Geagea blew up a Patriarchate and a Church killing and maiming many innocent by-standers…Geagea stole hundreds of Millions of USD from the coffers of the LF. Geagea was tried and convicted in 94 for some of those crimes and was sentenced for three consecutive life sentences and served 11 years in solitary confinement. He was recently Pardoned in 2005 following American/CIA machinations, because CIA needed his “services” again and has re-launched his political party and other related CIA/subversive activities etc. confronting again the policies of GMA [ General Michel Aoun ] in a political rematch of sorts…
The US takes the same failed projects and US puppet personalities…draws similarly eerie plans from the past…and seems to always take off the “shelves” past operations for an Encore…The end result is all around us with what is taking place today all over the ME…and from Quetta to Darfur…
My view is that nothing can be done about US Foreign policy until the American people wake up and take charge of their Government again, throwing all the rascals out….
I understand you were distracted, far away and busy, these were times when events were moving faster then any of you could keep pace with…
To deny the essential hubris of the everlasting, all conquering Self was always to hold dear something older, some vague memory of higher ideals, greater meaning….History will be fair to our fallen Heroes no matter what is thrown at them by the gullible ignorant few.
http://univercia2langley.blogspot.com/2010/12/proxy-cia-militia-skunks-geageas-lf.html
http://elie-hobeika.blogspot.com/2009/05/1995-2-25.html
Posted by HK | February 10, 2011, 4:55 amOf course All here and company have not yet explained just why the US supported the Syrian occupation of Lebanon for 30 odd years ….(remember that?), or just why the US gave a green light to the Israelis to invade in 1982 , 93, 96, 2006, (remember that?), or…why the US cut and ran like cowards in 83…, or what did they say to the LF in 84…? only to do exactly the opposite in 86…, Or….the actions of the Infamous White House Murder INC, from 2002 to 2008, Or….
ALL what is said about Mr. Elie Hobeika is pure hearsay with the obvious intent of further demonizing Elie unfairly, because none of you really knows anything about the man and his real record during the long war…
On the other hand you March14th idols’ record is well established and well documented…
Samir Geagea was behind many atrocious deliberate assassinations that are too numerous to even count: Tony Frangieh and his family, kids and about 21 innocent people. This particular hit was also orchestrated by the Gemayels, with a very heavy Mossad input. Geagea also assassinated a sitting Sunni Prime Minister by the name of Rashid Karame. Geagea also assassinated Dany Chamoun, his family and kids. Geagea also lined up against the wall with a firing squad, many Lebanese Army officers during his battles with Michel Aoun in 1988/89 with hundreds of casualties. Geagea also launched an insurrection against comrades in arms in 1986 to secure total control over his sector of the country, whereby over 650 young Christian combatants lost their lives in a futile battle of wills. Geagea blew up a Patriarchate and a Church killing and maiming many innocent by-standers…Geagea stole hundreds of Millions of USD from the coffers of the LF. Geagea was tried and convicted in 94 for some of those crimes and was sentenced for three consecutive life sentences and served 11 years in solitary confinement. He was recently Pardoned in 2005 following American/CIA machinations, because CIA needed his “services” again and has re-launched his political party and other related CIA/subversive activities etc. confronting again the policies of GMA [ General Michel Aoun ] in a political rematch of sorts…
The US takes the same failed projects and US puppet personalities…draws similarly eerie plans from the past…and seems to always take off the “shelves” past operations for an Encore…The end result is all around us with what is taking place today all over the ME…and from Quetta to Darfur…
My view is that nothing can be done about US Foreign policy until the American people wake up and take charge of their Government again, throwing all the rascals out….
I understand you were distracted, far away and busy, these were times when events were moving faster then any of you could keep pace with…
To deny the essential hubris of the everlasting, all conquering Self was always to hold dear something older, some vague memory of higher ideals, greater meaning….History will be fair to our fallen Heroes no matter what is thrown at them by the gullible ignorant few.
Posted by HK | February 10, 2011, 4:56 amPathetic….
ولفتت المصادر الى أنّ “عدم طرح اسم وزير الداخلية في حكومة تصريف الاعمال زياد بارود من قبل الرئيس سليمان، وربما هذا الاستبعاد ياتي بحسب معلومات صحفية بهدف توزير سليمان صهره وسام بارودي
Posted by HK | February 10, 2011, 5:07 amWhy is Elie Hobeika relevant to anything in the current events? What gives?
HK, you appear to be obsessed with some past events about which you feel very very strongly and which you consider to have never been given the attention and the investigation and the clearing it would have required. Maybe you are a relative of Hobeika. Maybe you were a devout follower. No one here has expressed any opinion – to my knowledge – about all this. It might be a subject of debate or discussion, particularly that the assassination (as so many others) has gone with full impunity and likely involved some kind of international intrigue, be it Syrian, Israeli, local, or a combination. That’s not the point. The point is that your apparent obsession with that event and related opinions that derive from that obsession — without any rational explanation that anyone here can follow as to what you are claiming and why (without needing to agree with you) — make it completely out of context and out of relevance to anything on this blog site. Hence the irritation of many readers and the consequent cautionary remarks and actions addressed to you by the owner of this blog.
Please also understand that this is a private blog. It is posted on the internet but no one has any claims on it but its owner. Freedom of speech means that you are free to create your own blog and go at it in proselytizing willing readers with your thoughts and narrative, or do it on a soap box in the town center, or other. Just because someone submits an opinion piece to the NY Times does not mean the NY Times is obligated to publish it because of “Freedom of Speech.”
You do not need to answer me and I mean no disrespect to you or your opinions. Wanted simply to point out the important distinction between what you implied about Freedom of Speech and what is actual implementation means, and to remark about the out-of-context (although possibly valid point of discussion) referral to Hobeika.
Peace.
Posted by Honest Patriot | February 10, 2011, 5:23 amHP@59
Thanks, points well taken.
You made valid points and a good argument.
Obviously, I feel that ALL the assassinations which took place since January 24th 2002…are directly related to each other, as I have disclosed in previous posts, and it is clearly obvious that not all of them have been treated equally… and on purpose as well…based on a very long and arduous investigation lasting 10 years…Nothing has changed yet…Hence, it’s very current until justice is served…
Thanks for caring to write.
Posted by HK | February 10, 2011, 6:54 amSorry, post@62 is meant to HP@61
Posted by HK | February 10, 2011, 6:56 amBy the way HP, EH’s case is Directly related to SYRIA and to What does the future hold for SYRIA…:)
Posted by HK | February 10, 2011, 7:01 amoops, disregard 61
Posted by HK | February 10, 2011, 7:22 am(Response to comment #20)
George,
I’ll address your four point summation one at a time.
“1- You think that Assad (being an Alawi) will be way too careful and hawkish in his negotiations with Israel to ensure that his Sunni majority does not accuse him of selling out.”
I wouldn’t use the words “too careful and hawkish” (that’s a judgment for the Syrian people to make), but yeah this is basically my argument.
“2- This would make a peace deal less possible as Israel will not sign a peace deal that is too favorable to Syria.”
Well, that depends on how one measures what is “favorable” to Syria, but yeah – peace is “less possible” the less representative the Syrian government is.
“3- Therefore you are calling for a Sunni leadership in Damascus which need not be too hawkish when it negotiates over the Golan.”
I’m not calling for a Sunni leadership, though personally I do support more representative government everywhere as a matter of principle. I’m not saying that a more representative government would (or should) accept less than a 100% Israeli withdrawal. I do think a representative government would be more willing to re-align away from Iran in exchange for the Golan. The refugee issue would still be a problem, of course.
“4- This is better for Israel and hence has a higher chance of being signed”
Well, I didn’t get into any of this in my article, but obviously Israel will be more willing to give up the Golan if Syria is more willing to re-align away from Iran (and Hezbollah). Whether that’s “better” for Israel and Syria is for the Israeli and Syrian people to decide.
Posted by Gary C. Gambill | February 10, 2011, 8:41 amHK/HP
This discussion about EH might strike some as a peripheral issue at the moment. I strongly disagree. This is NOT about EH but about intellectual integrity, about ideological consistency and about an honest dialogue.
HK, You can post all you want about EH but you know that by doing so you are engaging in a process of obfuscation. You are entitled to worship EH but you have failed to explain , or even to address, how can a worshipper of EH pretend to be a supporter of the Palestinian people. Lest we forget EH was the leader of the LF forces that wreaked havoc, killed, maimed,and butchered men, women and children at Sabra and Shatilla in one of the most grotesque massacres in the region.
You cannot hide behind saying, as you did, that you were not there and so you do not know what happened, that is a contemptible excuse.
Any argument needs to be intellectually consistent if it is to be taken seriously. Your crtiques/rants against Zionism will never be read or given any serious thought unless and until you come clean by taking a stand on who you are. Your irreconcilable position is heretical in every respect, it is just as inconsistent as claiming to be a Nazi loving Jew or a capitalist-Marxist. Will the real HK stand up?
Posted by Ghassan Karam | February 10, 2011, 9:49 ambipolarity? it happens
Posted by Honest Patriot | February 10, 2011, 9:56 amQN,I posted this yesterday, but it never showed up.
HK,
I recall the assassination of EH very clearly. The Belgians were about to start a war crimes trial against Ariel Sharon for the atrocities of Sabra & Chatilla. Mr. Hobeika was going to be the star witness of the trial.
After the assassination, it seemed clear to me that Israel pulled the trigger. All the news media took this story and ran with it. And as you correctly say here we are 9 years later and no one has looked into this assassination.
You keep stating that Syria took him out? Why would they take him out, if he was about to bring down Sharon and basically precipitate a series of war crimes trials against Israeli leaders?
Or are you suggesting that Syria and Israel and components (profit centers?) of the same White House Murder Inc?
I find your theories to be intriguing, but forgive me for not being able to follow along entirely. Are there two sides to this battle? or Is it one side (political elite) that make up these disputes to keep the masses anesthetized? If the latter then in some strange way you and RTOTD are saying the same thing, namely: Turn the tables on Orwell’s 1984.
Any light you can shed on this matter would be greatly appreciated. If the esteemed readership of this blog thinks this is way off topic, please respond on your blog and put the link here so I get your answers.
Thanks.
Posted by Johnny | February 10, 2011, 10:03 amGK@67
You are being completely disingenuous because you never took the time to read what I pointed out as being a good start on the sad Sabra Shatila Chapter.
I pointed out a link to you on the subject which is very detailed, and I pointed out Alain Menargue’s book, “Les Secrets de la guerre du Liban”, both these sources completely debunk ALL the claims about Elie Hobeika’s involvement in these events…despite the utter complicity of the MSM in regurgitating repeatedly the exact same story for decades…and the MSM account is totally false. This is not new by the way, because always in the Fog of Wars…. the truth is always the first victim…
Second: The Palestinian issue… We are ALL on the side of the Palestinians when it comes to their Homeland Palestine, but we were adamantly opposed to Arafat’s actions in Lebanon during the long war of Lebanon. This is BASIC stuff ya Ghassan and every Lebanese on the planet knows this. So your premise about “duplicity” of purpose utterly is False, shallow and to be honest, very crude…
All your other rhetoric about Jews and Nazis is an attempt to sideline the real issues…
You keep employing the word “Worship”…, that’s fine because there is nothing to hide here, I know the real truth about ALL these events in question and I will defend Elie Hobeika’s record to the hilt, because it is very sad to see all these distortions for all these years by people who pretend to be “academic”, while they fail to do the most basic research about those issues…
Finally, if I worship anything beyond all else GK, I worship Justice, due process and the rule of law…and if you take the time to digest what I have written in previous posts on the subject, you would clearly arrive at this conclusion.
Posted by HK | February 10, 2011, 10:24 amJohnny@69
Thanks for your post.
Your basic premise is correct, but you will find a lot more details on the blog you are referring to…if you care to read, you will find ALL the answers to your questions there…
I can’t give you a specific link anymore because Mr. Muhanna has dis-allowed links from my posts…
Suffice it to say, that the whole Belgium trial issues were a complete Charade…, as well as the lawsuit… It was never meant to go to actual trials… It was meant to give enough “reasons”… to pretend that the assassination of Elie Hobeika was directly linked to those events, law suit, books, etc. …It was not….The whole scam was designed as chaff in the wind…and it was part and parcel of the disinformation, demonization campaigns, destined to provide Plausible Deniability for ALL involved…in the Infamous White House Murder INC, and their local chapters…
The Americans were absolutely adamant about not wanting those kinds of trials…. more than the Israelis….because it would have a direct bearing on their Army’s operations later on…and they would have done everything to shut it down ASAP, as soon as the assassination of Elie was “consumed”…
As to your question about Why would Syria take him out? The quick answer to that is that Syria was very close to the Americans after 9/11, especially the MI and Asef Shawkat, who is the liaison with US Intel., Renditions, security cooperation, intel sharing on terror, etc, which is La Devise Syrienne par excellence…and to make a long story short… You scratch my back, I’ll scratch yours…etc. and Syria knew that no one would allow such trials to fruition in any way shape or form…
Later on, this “experience” from the HIT on Elie…would be used by the US/Israel to Bamboozle Asef Shawkat and the SMI into doing another very big one…as an encore…
VOILA.
Posted by HK | February 10, 2011, 10:48 amHK says:
“We are ALL on the side of the Palestinians when it comes to their Homeland Palestine, but we were adamantly opposed to Arafat’s actions in Lebanon during the long war of Lebanon. This is BASIC stuff ya Ghassan and every Lebanese on the planet knows this.”
I hate to disappoint you HK. I have often had profound and major differences with the palestinian leadership but that is never ever to be used as an excuse to kill and butcher innocent civilians either in camps or on buses. I would even go further by saying that the one thing that I am ashamed most of is the existence of these grovel holes allthroughout Lebanon that we call Palestinian refugee camps.
Your position reminds me of Nam when the US forces decided to annihilate a village in order to save it. I imagine that the next thing you are to tell me is that Hobeika, Geagea et al are actually Palestinian patriots:-)
Posted by Ghassan Karam | February 10, 2011, 10:50 amGK @72
Touche…
Still very shallow reasoning Mr. Karam.
Go read the link and Alain Menargues’ book, “Les Secrets de La Guerre du Liban” and then come back…
Posted by HK | February 10, 2011, 10:55 amHK:
Without turning this into a history lesson, or expecting people to read this book or that book… can you give us a summary?
– Who are the footsoldiers who butchered people in S&C?
– Who was the person who led the attacks?
Posted by Gabriel | February 10, 2011, 11:20 amHK = Charles? Yes/No
Posted by Honest Patriot | February 10, 2011, 11:33 amhttp://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/features/2011/02/201129103121562395.html
Posted by headsup | February 10, 2011, 11:44 amGabriel@73
There is a post @ HK 24, related to S&S AMAN etc. read it if you care to know and if you don’t want to read the exact/precise happenings detailed clearly in Alain Menargues’ book, “Les Secrets de la Guerre du Liban” and I am telling you that in that book you will find the most accurate account of what happened those fateful days and throughout the long Lebanon war…which I can fully confirm.
HP@74 the answer is NO, but you were charming@60, keep it up and cut the other crap.
Posted by HK | February 10, 2011, 12:01 pmHK #75:
That post doesn’t answer the questions I posed.
People entered the camps and killed people. Who were there? An extranatural force? Chinese? Israelis? Xians? Syrians? Who were the foot soldiers? Who were they followers of?
Sorry I don’t know the acronyms u use like MSM etc.
Posted by Gabriel | February 10, 2011, 12:07 pmHK, sorry for the prying yet terse question. I was an early childhood/adolescence friend/classmate of Charles and knew EH also as an adolescent. Lost touch after the start of the civil war and had an apolitical techno-nerdy-intellectual life.
Like many, I have a tremendous admiration to QN.
Peace.
Posted by Honest Patriot | February 10, 2011, 12:35 pmGabriel@77
For more details see this:
http://newhk.blogspot.com/search/label/AMAN.
There is a link@HK 24, press it and go there for your reading. In that post, you will have ALL the answers which you obviously did not read yet.
There you will find, the answers to who did what, where and when. There is also a sequence of events… etc.
The book of Alain Menargues goes into much more details.
OK, HP thanks for the info.
Posted by HK | February 10, 2011, 12:50 pmGabriel@77
MSM is Main Stream Media…
Who were they followers of?
There was a Foreign Army occupying South Lebanon and All of Beirut… IDF
IDF Sayarat Metkal special forces entered the camps first with specific lists of names in their hands and went about killing everyone on their lists…
Then, IDF flew into Beirut International Airport, on Hercules C130 IAF troop Transports, loads and loads of SLA fighters, [ South Lebanon Army of Saad Haddad, a proxy of IDF ] who joined with IDF troops in the Camps. Those SLA fighters were under direct orders from the occupying Army IDF. IDF was fully in charge and legally responsible for the whole area as an occupying Army. Read the international conventions…
The Hercules C130 IAF troop transports were seen unloading troops by many Lebanese Army officers and Leb. troops who were stationed at BIA. They have witnessed all of that happening, and would be delighted to give testimony to that effect…but no one has ever asked…. etc. etc.
I am not going to do the reading for you.
Read the book.
Posted by HK | February 10, 2011, 1:06 pmHK:
This is not really helping much. Here’s what I read from the website:
To say that the
Phalangists or Haddad were responsible is to give these proxies too much
credit. They were mere fronts for the IDF and the 3 security agencies. Who
was Saad Haddad or Elie Hobeika without Israeli training and direction?
So even in your link, there is no denial that Elie Hobeika was somewhat involved in murders, etc. Non-withstanding the fact that he may have been trained/directed etc. by Israel.
But perhaps the most interesting note on the website is:
In conjunction with the Zionist plans and ambitions for
the Middle East, the Israelis were intent on not only destroying the
Palestinian organizations, but removing the whole Palestinian population out
of Lebanon, by transfer and/or murder.
Isn’t that the position still officially held by most in Lebanon?
Posted by Gabriel | February 10, 2011, 1:11 pmGabriel,
Picking and choosing bits and pieces from a long article does not do justice to the whole issue….and Yes, rhetorically the article was saying that these people were just used and abused by IDF, either in doing their bidding like SLA, or later in the Fabrication of a cover story by Israeli services, in order to give their “Narrative” to obfuscate what really happened. It was too easy to put the whole blame on someone, EH and run with the story for decades.
I can tell you that Elie had nothing to do with the whole issue. He was extremely busy with his investigation of the assassination of Bashir Gemayel at the time and had nothing to do with this whole affair.
That’s not the first time Israel has done that and it won’t be the last…
They do some bad operation…Then they create their own commissions and give an official narrative and keep on lying to their people and to the world.
They have done it after GAZA in 2009, the Goldstone Report commission, The Avi Marmara commission etc etc etc , They are very good at it and the MSM serves them well.
Posted by HK | February 10, 2011, 1:36 pmHK’s Mental Block Exposed
Gabriel,
Why is it so difficult for some Arabs to admit that, sometimes (actually, MANY TIMES), Arab thugs commit attrocities?
Is it because it waters down the “White House/IDF/Mossad Murder, Inc.” theme?
Posted by Akbar Palace | February 10, 2011, 1:43 pmHK,
Do you have books and links to debunk the Phalange/LF involvement in the other massacres such as Nabaa, black Saturday, Tal el Zaatar.
And let’s not stop there how about the Damour Massacre and the massacres committed against Christians in the Mountains.?
What about the killings on the checkpoints because some poor bastard happens to be from the wrong sect or religion?
What about Nabih Berri’s war against the Palestinian Camps.?
What about GMA’s war against his fellow Christians in Ain el remeneh and elsewhere?
Remind me everyone if I missed any more Lebanese massacres.
Were all these committed by the Zionists and Carl rove ?
Please stop this charade, I think you have watched so much conspiracy movies that you lost touch with reality.
Posted by V | February 10, 2011, 1:46 pmHK:
I’m not cherry-picking your link, but it is your link after all!
I pulled out a statement that suggested, at the very least, that EH took direction from Israel, if not for S and C, then maybe for something else.
I agree that the MSM focuses more on one issue or the other depending on political machinations. Maybe they put undue focus on the fact it was Leb xian militias, etc.
But at some point, one has to say… Enough is Enough. Those militias are responsible, and let’s not play semantics on who was really behind this or that. People had weapons, and a free will. They walked into a camp. And they killed innocent people. End of Story. White House Murder Inc, Damascus Terror Inc, Wilayat Faqih Murder Inc, Mossad Aman uber-terrorist Inc. Those are things that cloud the issue.
As Lebs, the civil war is over. And all this shame was dusted under the carpet. I hardly see the point of constantly bringing it up again and again.
What is needed is a clear, and just path looking forward.
Posted by Gabriel | February 10, 2011, 2:16 pmIt looks like Mubarak is quiting tonight. long live the revolution !
Let’s see howcome the Zionists and White House Murder Inc are allowing this?!!
Hummmmmm the plot thickens. 🙂
Posted by V | February 10, 2011, 2:20 pmV@84
I never said what you are describing.
Each incident you mentioned here had its own tragic consequences in the fog of war…
Oversimplifying matters in order to make a point does not help you.
Most people have realized by now the very complex nature of the long Lebanon war since 1969…which cannot be explained in 30 second sound bites or a small post.
The very best source about ALL these events you have described is the book of Alain Menargues. Read it and you will learn even more about this charade…
And YES, you have left out from your list, the most Infamous White House Murder INC,
http://newhk.blogspot.com/2011/01/components-of-white-house-murder-incs.html
Posted by HK | February 10, 2011, 2:21 pmAP:
I’m not sure.
Maybe it’s the same reason that many Israelis don’t own up to the attrocities they commit?
Posted by Gabriel | February 10, 2011, 2:22 pmGabriel@85
Amen…
Posted by HK | February 10, 2011, 2:23 pmAs far as I’m concerned, it was Lebanese people that pulled the trigger personally, on maybe 90% of the killing that happened in Lebanon between 1975 and today.
Blaming foreign powers is weak and inexcusable.
You probably all heard the old “If your friend told you to jump out of a window…” chiding from your moms when you were kids and said “But so and so made me do it.”
Enough of this bullshit.
Posted by Bad Vilbel | February 10, 2011, 2:25 pmGabriel@84
Show me any “set of behaviors” and I will show you an example of just such behaviors in the Land of the Free, over the last few decades… A properly administered legal system is what keeps these unspecified behaviors in check….and we obviously never had it in Lebanon, and still don’t today…
Posted by HK | February 10, 2011, 2:33 pmGary,
It sounds like you pretty much agree with my list per your reply in 65. You may use different terms but the rationale seems to be consistent with what you had in mind when you wrote your article.
Your reference to iran in your reply made that much clear. In other words, unless syria throws iran under the bus, israel is unlikely to sign a deal is what one hears in your
Syria is essentially asked to walk totally naked on fifth avenue in the cold. Drop all cards and then come to the table.
Posted by G.Saghir | February 10, 2011, 2:35 pmI fail to see how only one book by a French journalist managed to outsmart evreyone else in the world by uncovering the hidden truth about the Lebanese war. It must be great to have a monopoly on knowledge. Get serious folks. This line of reasoning is absurd.
Hobeika is not responsible because Sharon made him do it. If he was operating as an agent then his crime is more heinous, if that is possible.
But let us not mix the trees for the forest. I brought up the EH issue not in an effort to discuss the specifics of what he did but to make the point that it is absurd to pretend to be for the Palestinians by killing them brutally.
HK, Feel free to spend all your resources in pursuit of rehabilitating EH but please do not make a mockery of logic and reason by pretending that there is a separation between butchering the innocent and promoting their cause at the same time.
Posted by ghassan karam | February 10, 2011, 2:44 pm“Syria is essentially asked to walk totally naked on fifth avenue in the cold. Drop all cards and then come to the table…”
Syria did exactly that since 1973 and Syria did exactly that again in 2000, to secure the Syrian Kingdom to Bashar Assad for the next 30 years…but Democracy is knocking on the doors of Assad.
Now, there is a military Coup D’etat taking place in Egypt right now…and the Chicken will come home to roost in Syria soon enough.
Posted by HK | February 10, 2011, 2:47 pmSyria has never walked away from Iran. Not in 2000. I have no idea how you make up these things, HK.
Syria has been arm in arm with Iran for many decades and proudly so.
It has not once wavered away from that alliance, no matter what it was promised, threatened with, badgered about or sanctioned for.
Posted by Bad Vilbel | February 10, 2011, 3:11 pmA genuinely innovative combination of Arab nationalism, Islam, and Western civil rights just might be in the process of emerging and taking power in the Arab world… Precedents already exist in Indonesia, Lebanon, Turkey, but moderates have almost always been on the defensive, pinned between imperial extremism and the Islamic extremism. The removal of Mubarak would be a big step in the direction of a most welcome combination of Arab moderation and justice, but that victory remains far from assured as the world awaits the decisions of the Egyptian military high command…
Posted by HK | February 10, 2011, 3:15 pmThe Egyptian army command just issued communique #1.
Looks like it will take over.
Mubarak has not yet officially quit.
Since this post is about Syria, then I suggest that the Syrians look into the events in Egypt and try to find solutions to their problems in the same fashion. If the Syrians do not move soon into revolt, then all their bravado and talk about Arabism will be looked at as complete bull.
I also hope the Iranians will get inspired.
As for the Israelis, they seem to have resigned themselves to the possibility that they will never get accepted by the surrounding environment. Now, they are planning to rebuild thair armed forces.
Posted by anonymous | February 10, 2011, 3:20 pmG.Saghir,
Every day that passes and the Israeli northern border is quiet, Syria losses negotiating power. Every day that passes in which Syria gets weaker because of the lack of reforms you recommend, Syria losses negotiating power. Imagine what would happen if the green revolution in Iran succeeds? What would Syria have to offer then?
Posted by AIG | February 10, 2011, 3:21 pmDar al-Fatwa is making a stand regarding the recent coup and the upcoming formation of an ‘illegal’ government,
http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/NewsDesk.nsf/getstory?openform&564D42AE883E29A1C22578330050EBA7
The French are also predicting STL indictments within 10 days,
http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/NewsDesk.nsf/getstory?openform&EDA37781DA585906C2257833001FB836
Posted by anonymous | February 10, 2011, 3:37 pmI am in between two lectures and I do not have the time to double check on the interpretations of the Mubarak speech but I am not sure that he stepped down or did he? He seems to have transferred most of the day to day operations to the VP but he did not specifically state that he was leaving office. Is this another charade?
Posted by ghassan karam | February 10, 2011, 5:14 pmHe did not step down.
I listened to the speech, it was intentionally vague and designed to pull on the patriotic heartstrings more than anything else.
I’m not quite sure how to interpret it.
1) It could be speech 1 in a series of 2. This one laying the ground work for a “constitutional” transition of power, as opposed to him stepping down right now and basically, chaos ensuing (as seen from the eyes of the regime). Speech 2 would come soon in the form of “Now that I’ve laid the ground for an orderly transition, I can step down”.
2) A charade. But if this is the case, I don’t see this going too far. Sadly, if he refuses to leave, we’ll be headed towards a military coup (thus bypassing the orderly constitutional transition and going for an all out military takeover, including suspending parliament, etc).
I wonder if option 2 is not what the military is after, hence pushing Mubarak towards this kind of speech.
Posted by Bad Vilbel | February 10, 2011, 5:25 pmThere might be a run on the Lebanese Canadian Bank tomorrow.
Who was it and where was it that I read the next step in the war on Hizballah would be to tarnish its image by exposing its ties to the drug trade?
Posted by RandomThoughtOfTheDay | February 10, 2011, 6:32 pmThat’s not new.
Posted by Bad Vilbel | February 10, 2011, 6:45 pmBV,
If a prominent bank collapses because of its ties to Hezballah in the
coming days … I can assure you it will be new(s).
Posted by RandomThoughtOfTheDay | February 10, 2011, 7:14 pmYeah. A bank is bigger news than usual.
But the US has been going about HA “connections” for years. Various businessmen accused of “illegal donations to terrorist groups” or “cigarette smuggling”. Not too long ago, some guy was convicted of funnelling proceeds from illegal cigarette trafficking in a US court.
There’s also been many “charities” closed in the US and Europe over the years on account of them being front for Hamas or HA or similar groups.
This isn’t new.
But you’re right, a bank failing in Lebanon proper would be something novel.
Posted by Bad Vilbel | February 10, 2011, 7:24 pmI think someone just gave Mikati a whiff of what Lebanon may face protecting “La Resistance”.
Posted by RandomThoughtOfTheDay | February 10, 2011, 7:25 pmHow significant is this bank in the Lebanese banking industry?
Posted by AIG | February 10, 2011, 7:26 pm$5 billion in assets.
Posted by RandomThoughtOfTheDay | February 10, 2011, 7:28 pmIt’s the message that is more potent though.
Posted by RandomThoughtOfTheDay | February 10, 2011, 7:29 pmBank collapses in Lebanon have always foretold major changes on the Lebanese political scene from Intra, to Tamraz, to the Lebanese Forces Banks, and Al Madina.
Posted by RandomThoughtOfTheDay | February 10, 2011, 7:53 pmRTOD,
I agree with 105. I have been saying for a few years now that this would be the dooms day weapon of the US. However, it is very tricky to handle. The US does not really want to wreck the Lebanese economy so it needs to be very very careful. Even a small bank can cause a chain reaction.
Posted by AIG | February 10, 2011, 8:46 pmImad Mughniyeh may still be alive, unless he found a way to impregnate his wife from his grave. Also, it is becoming clear so-called ‘resistance’ is nothing but a gang of criminals and drug dealers,
http://www.14march.org/news-details.php?nid=Mjc2MTEw
Posted by anonymous | February 10, 2011, 10:06 pmRe: G.Saghir (#91)
“It sounds like you pretty much agree with my list per your reply in 65 . . . unless syria throws iran under the bus, israel is unlikely to sign a deal . . . Syria is essentially asked to walk totally naked on fifth avenue in the cold. Drop all cards and then come to the table.”
Yes, that’s what the Israelis want in exchange for the Golan (perhaps not upfront, but definitely in trade). My only point is that the conventional wisdom in Tel Aviv and Washington – that Assad can be bribed or beaten into accepting such a deal – is DEAD WRONG. I’m quite certain you agree with me on that.
Posted by Gary C. Gambill | February 10, 2011, 10:49 pmI thought that I have sent this request earlier. Anyway, does anyone have any information about the alleged drugpin Ayman Joumaa? He is the one named by the US authorities who accused the Lebanese Canadian Bank laundering large sums of money for underground figures.
Posted by Ghassan Karam | February 10, 2011, 11:38 pmThis is one of the most popular songs played at Tahrir Square,
Posted by anonymous | February 11, 2011, 12:27 amPretty pathetic to see people here getting their stories from Al-Shira3, you might as well get it from the National Enquirer…
People who are still putting any faith into anything coming out of Washington should reconsider their game plans…
Remember BCCI, Iran/Contra, the S&L crisis in the mid-eighties, the Stanford International Bank, Madoff, the Subprime mess of 2008… It is well known that most of the drug/money laundering done the world-over goes through the biggest American, Russian and Israeli Banks.
Furthermore,when US Marines were hit at BIA in 1983, instead of fighting back…, the US went to the Caribbean and attacked Grenada of all places…, nice choice of places for US Bravado….
Today, the US/Israeli crumbling Empire has found a new enemy in Hezbollah…, using STL fabrications and other petty means to defame/demonize the valiant Lebanese Resistance of Hizbullah, to deflect attention from the growing rejection of American/Israeli hegemony worldwide….
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/11/opinion/11iht-edwheatcroft11.html?_r=1&ref=global
LCB, Lebanese Canadian Bank, denied all the allegations, saying it has no knowledge of “any involvement in any manner whatsoever in illicit transactions or wrong doing” and “regrets the information reported by international and domestic news agencies” about the bank’s ties to money laundering or drug traffickers. It vowed to “fully cooperate” with the authorities…
Under a little known provision in the USA Patriot Act, marking the first time the Obama administration has used a tool that critics charge violates due-process guarantees. Not only is Thursday’s action the first use of the provision to go after drug traffickers, it’s also the first time that the administration of President Barack Obama, a former constitutional law professor, has used a provision that critics say flies in the face of the Constitution.
The speed of the changes is accelerating, soon that is going to be awesomely apparent. If you’re putting your trust in the powers of the old world to sort it all out, you are backing the wrong horse. You’re going to see some tragic and comic sights. In these times, justice has a sense of humor and there are no real limits to what may or may not happen.
http://geofinancial.blogspot.com/2010/07/stanford-international-bank-became-new.html
Posted by HK | February 11, 2011, 6:25 amShortcomings in US leadership
In terms of geopolitics, only one thing matters. Power… And that power matters absolutely.
To those Ziocons who still hunger for control, who are mostly the left behind network from the GWB criminal enterprise, concepts like liberty and freedom have no meaning other than as handy catch phrases intended for mass consumption…
This is not the way i want things to be, it is just the way they are.
Until everyone wakes up, recognizes that fact, and stops buying into the simple minded illusions peddled by the current dysfunctional system, the disastrous mistakes since 1953…, at the core of the US national decision making process will continue, and the utterly corrupt Empire will crumble soonest.
Wanting or believing is not enough. It is action that matters… Until we the people demand that principles like freedom, justice and liberty become meaningful priorities, they will remain little more than advertising slogans for wanna be thugs….
Peering through the shroud of global corruption: Hillary’s “all hands” meeting, bribery and kickbacks…
http://echkelon.blogspot.com/2011/02/peering-through-shroud-of-global.html
سلامة:”اللبناني الكندي” حائز على دعم مصرف لبنان
أعلن حاكم مصرف لبنان رياض سلامه، بصفته الحاكم ورئيس الهيئة الخاصة بمكافحة تبييض الأموال، في بيان اليوم “ان البنك اللبناني الكندي يلتزم القوانين اللبنانية والمعايير الدولية والتعاميم الصادرة عن مصرف لبنان والهيئة الخاصة بمكافحة تبييض الأموال. وان هذا المصرف يتمتع بإدارة مهنية عالية وسيولة مرتفعة وهو حائز على دعم مصرف لبنان المطلق، ونود التأكيد للأسواق اللبنانية والمتعاملين مع هذا المصرف، ان عملياتهم معه هي آمنة”.
Posted by HK | February 11, 2011, 7:39 amThe fact that the timing of the accusation bt the US Treasury that a Lebanese Bank has been involved in a large money laundering operation indicates a political motive is a separate issue from whether the bank is guilt as charges.
The investigations over the next few weeks and months would reveal if there is any solid evidence for this accusation or whether the US Treasury is blowing smoke.
But in this regard the quote mentioned in the above post was slightly selective in the sense that it dropped a key operative part of the denial by the bank. The bank did not beny categorically its involvement as reported above it denied “knowingly” its involvement which is as we all well know a different kind of denial. the correct statement isthe following:
“”… Accordingly (the bank) denies knowledge of any involvement in any manner whatsoever in illicit transactions or wrongdoing.”
It is possible for a bank to be unwittingly involved in these operations and chances are that billions of illicit drug money are “laundered” each year through a very wide array of all sorts of banks the world over. The key to the accusation is whether this was done willingly or not i.e. did the bank in question turn a blind eye on these transactions in order to facilitate them?
Posted by Ghassan Karam | February 11, 2011, 8:45 amhttp://www.executive-magazine.com/getarticle.php?article=8316
Posted by RandomThoughtOfTheDay | February 11, 2011, 9:02 amThe most uptodate list of the owners of LCB as published a few months ago by the Executive is the following:
Perpetual Holding – 48%
Mohammed Hamdoun – 10%
Leader Invest Holding – 11%
Nest Investment Holding – 8.5%
Shareholders with less than 5 percent – 22.5%
Georges Zard Abou Jaoude, Wadih Nasrallah, Makarem Makari, Edouard Zard Abou Jaoude, Carlos Abou Jaoude, Raymond Diab, Ghazi Abu Nahl, Fadi Ghazi Abu Nahl, Hamad Ghazi Abu Nahl, Kamel Ghazi Abu Nahl, Nasser bin Aly bin Saoud bin Thani al-Thani, Jamal Abdelrahman Abou Nahl, Trust International Insurance Co Cyprus ltd, Trust International Insurance and Re-insurance Co Bahrain, Investment Holding Co. for Jordanian Expatriates, Compass Insurance, Qatar Gerneral Insurance and Re-insurance, Nevian LCB, Eurynome Holding, Capital Holding.
As you will note, this list shows a greater concentration by Perpetual Holding and what appears to be a slightly greater involvement by Qataries.
Posted by Ghassan Karam | February 11, 2011, 9:24 amThe Daily Star has an in depth account on the accusations.
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=3&article_id=124759#axzz1Dej1R4iL
Posted by RandomThoughtOfTheDay | February 11, 2011, 9:30 amTypical US, smear and dirty tricks campaigns, designed to apply pressure on target countries for political purposes.
The US treasury dept. is fully aware of the shady banking practices in Cyprus, Dubai, NCB of Saudi Arabia, the Caribbean and other off-shore heavens, in Israel, London, Mexico and USA proper to name a few…
We will see momentarily thousands upon thousands of press articles talking about Drug Trafficking, Money Laundering, Hezbollah, Terror, Lebanon’s Gvnt. and the related STL paraphernalia….and the MSM will have a field day regurgitating the never ending crap for years to come….
http://geofinancial.blogspot.com/2010/07/stanford-international-bank-became-new.html
Posted by HK | February 11, 2011, 10:43 amBV said:
“1) It could be speech 1 in a series of 2. This one laying the ground work for a “constitutional” transition of power, as opposed to him stepping down right now and basically, chaos ensuing (as seen from the eyes of the regime). Speech 2 would come soon in the form of “Now that I’ve laid the ground for an orderly transition, I can step down”.
That was the best call that I know of. BV you should not let these analytical powers go to waste. Congrats on a phenomenal read of yesterdays speech.
Posted by Ghassan Karam | February 11, 2011, 12:45 pmThe Lebanese are much smarter than succumbing to US pressure…
No one ran to LCB to take his money out…
ان رئيس مجلس ادارة البنك اللبناني – الكندي جورج زرد أبو جودة تلقى سلسلة اتصالات من أعلى المراجع السياسية والمصرفية والإقتصادية، مؤكدة دعمها للمصرف “في هذه الحملة المغرضة التي يتعرّض لها ليس فقط البنك اللبناني – الكندي إنما القطاع الأمتن والأقوى في لبنان وهو القطاع المصرفي”.
مصادر مصرفية: في هذا السياق، جاء بيان الحاكم سلامة الصادر ظهر اليوم، ليؤكد مرة أخرى متانة القطاع المصرفي اللبناني والتزامه تطبيق القوانين اللبنانية والمعايير الدولية والتعاميم الصادرة عن مصرف لبنان في ما يتعلق بمكافحة تبييض الأموال. كما أنه دحض كل الأخبار الصادرة أمس في وسائل الإعلام المحلية والعالمية المنسوبة الى وزارة الخزانة الأميركية، والمتعلقة بالبنك اللبناني – الكندي.
مصادر مصرفية رفيعة أكدت لـ”المركزية” في هذا السياق، ان “القطاع المصرفي اللبناني يتمتع بمهنية عالية ويملك سيولة مرتفعة، كما أنه يقف متضامناً مع البنك اللبناني – الكندي في هذه الحملة، لأن ما يتعرّض له أي مصرف في لبنان من حملات مغرضة اليوم، سيطاول كل المصارف العاملة فيه”، محذرة من “أن يعمد بعض المصارف إلى استغلال هذه الأوضاع، لأن ذلك سيؤدي ليس الى إلحاق الضرر بالقطاع المصرفي اللبناني فقط، بل الى إيقاعه في محنة كبيرة يحاول الكثيرون الإفادة منها”.
حركة الفروع طبيعية: وبالنسبة إلى الأعمال اليومية في فروع البنك اللبناني – الكندي المختلفة، تبيّن أن حركتها لم تتأثر في هذه الأنباء، إذ لم تُلحظ أي حركة غير عادية من قبل المودعين، خصوصاً بعد البيان الصادر عن حاكم مصرف لبنان الذي طمأن الأسواق اللبنانية والمتعاملين مع البنك اللبناني – الكندي إلى أن عملياتهم آمنة، كما أن إدارة المصرف تتمتع بمهنية عالية وهو حائز على دعم مصرف لبنان المطلق.
Posted by HK | February 11, 2011, 1:12 pmThe Swiss Government ordered all the Mubarak family assets in the CH frozen…
Vive La Revolution
Posted by HK | February 11, 2011, 1:27 pmEGYPT IS FINALLY FREE.
The Pharaoh has fallen.
Mubarak has fled the country,and let his VP break the news to the world.
Congratulation to the people of Egypt,and to all democracy and freedom lovers around the entire world. I Hope All Arab dictators fall soon.
Egyptians can only have a better future. I hope they look forward instead of backward.The future is ahead of them.
Posted by The prophet | February 11, 2011, 1:36 pmBV,
He skipped the speech 2 though… 😀
Posted by danny | February 11, 2011, 1:41 pmGhassan,
Thank you.
It is still not clear to me whether what we saw in Egypt today is what I deemed “option 1” or “option 2”.
Namely, is this a military coup? Or is this an “orderly transition”?
That is not a question that will be answered this week or next, but perhaps in a year.
I will, however, give myself a pat on the back for my read of Mubarak’s speech yesterday 🙂
Posted by Bad Vilbel | February 11, 2011, 1:41 pmdanny,
Omar Suleiman gave speech #2. I’m guessing Mubarak just couldn’t bring himself to utter the words himself.
Posted by Bad Vilbel | February 11, 2011, 1:42 pmBashar Assad, The Dictator of Syria should be next in line.
Freedom for the Syrian people
Posted by HK | February 11, 2011, 1:52 pmThe hypocrisy and irony of the headlines in Lebanon are quite amusing today.
“Hizbullah congratulates Egypt’s people”…Yeah. You guys really get it.
Posted by Bad Vilbel | February 11, 2011, 2:02 pmBV,
I was thinking of the same. How stupid are those who peddle in that logic! They force themselves through the gun and murder and assassinations and yet they think they are the champions of freedom!
I just hope that the incompetent Egyptian police apprehend those HA cell members and put them back where they belong!
Posted by danny | February 11, 2011, 2:12 pmIf this were a coup Suleiman would not have been chosen to make the official announcement. Unless Suleiman is to be seen in cahoots with the military against Mubarak which is not likely at this stage.
The question now is how the military will behave in administering the next stage. It is safe to say the backers and allies of the old regime, the US, Israel, SA, are still hoping and working to steer Egypt in a direction not to unfavorable to their own narrow interests.
How will the military react to such pressures, and where do they see their own interests? The revolution is not out of the woods yet…
Posted by Saint | February 11, 2011, 2:14 pmNext in line would have been Saddam Hussein.
Posted by RandomThoughtOfTheDay | February 11, 2011, 2:19 pmBV,
However hypocritical you may see it, it is most likely that the Egyptian people’s sentiment regarding regional politics, specifically in respect to the Palestinian question, will see a re-alignment with the positions and views of movements such as HA. The very reason the US, Israel and their allies in the region are anxious and nervous…
Posted by Saint | February 11, 2011, 2:20 pmI will be the first to admit that I do not follow the events in Libya and Algiers closely enough but it does not appear that there are any signs of a potentially strong organized opposition in Libya. Not so in Algiers, Yemen and Jordan where it looks like there is stronger opposition to the queen rather than the king. As for Syria and Saudi Arabia they might be the last to fall.Anyway this is a time for celebration. Let freedom ring !!!!!!!!!!and may all the Arab dictators; large and small, be washed away by this tsunami, including the emirates
Posted by Ghassan Karam | February 11, 2011, 2:25 pmBad Vibel, Danny
you think it’s hypocrisy for HA to congratulate the Egyptian people?
isn’t the real hypocrisy the so called US and western call for democracy? who supported and continues to support tyrants like Mubarak?
The day of reckoning is coming. ALL traitors and dictators will be following in Ben Ali’s and Mubarak’s footsteps. The real question in where too now? will he be going to the KSA? joining his brother in arms from Tunisia ? what happens when real change hits the Kingdom? I guess Tel Aviv?
you are on the wrong side of history. The ball is rolling and it WILL sweep everything in it’s path. Don’t be fooled politics is at the heart of the movement in Egypt it’s not just about elections and corruption and tyranny, The Egyptian’s rejected the regimes POLITICS. The voice of the masses will be heard now.
you should be concentrating on Which of the puppets will go next? Bahrain, Jordan, Yemen? or that new great defender of democracy and free trade the mad men in Lybia? the anticipation is driving me nuts….
Posted by elsheikh | February 11, 2011, 2:27 pm1) You might wanna look up the definition of “hypocrisy” in the dictionary.
2) Two wrongs dont make a right. Just because HA is being hypocritical doesn’t mean the US isn’t either. I simply chose to laugh at our own clowns in Lebanon. Doesn’t mean I am not aware of US hypocrisy in this matter.
3) Yes. HA is being hypocritical by the exact definition of the word. Celebrating “freedom and democracy and the will of the people” in Egypt while their 2 best allies are Syria and Iran, where freedom is supreme, democracy flourishing, and human rights are upheld. Oh wait. No. Last I checked Bashar = Gamal Mubarak and people get tortured routinely in Evin prison by secret police types. So yes. I call this hypocrisy.
Not to mention what HA does in Lebanon, in terms of intimidation and bullying to get their way. “Cutting the hands of anyone who tries to take our weapons away”…Will of the people my ass.
So please, spare me the hyperbole.
Posted by Bad Vilbel | February 11, 2011, 2:33 pmI notice, El Sheikh, that you call for ALL (you capitalized this yourself) dictators to be removed. Yet you mentioned everyone except for Assad and Khamenei. Who’s being hypocritical now?
Posted by Bad Vilbel | February 11, 2011, 2:35 pm“Chants in Tahrir: ‘Muslims, Christians, We are One.’
This is the rebirth of a country, with a feeling that anything is possible #Egypt
28 minutes ago via web”
http://twitter.com/LaraABCNews
Posted by lally | February 11, 2011, 2:36 pmOk … now that the world is getting rid of dictators, can we please also get rid of Bankers that charge us fees for using our money 🙂
Posted by RandomThoughtOfTheDay | February 11, 2011, 2:40 pmSaint,
I hear what you’re saying, but one has nothing to do with the other.
Whether the Egyptian people are anti-American, anti-Israel or not is one thing. But it has nothing to do with HA congratulating the Egyptian ppl for overthrowing tyrany.
If I were HA, i’d be keeping my mouth shut right about now.
When the Arab people really get empowered (and I suspect this is only the beginning) and start thinking as a people, and less as sheeple, a tsunami (as GK put it) will be inevitable.
And when that happens, the will of the people will wipe away at tyranny, no matter its color (and yes, this includes HA, The Assads, and Iran).
The revolution in Egypt was NOT primarily about foreign policy, Palestine or anti-US sentiment.
That is EXACTLY why it was successful.
There is nothing like the power of a people when they get their voice. And this power has nothing to do with foreign policy and does not distinguish between pro-Western reactionary or anti-Israel rejectionist.
Posted by Bad Vilbel | February 11, 2011, 2:41 pmbad Vibel
Spare me your diatribes who is waiting for you to discuss democracy and freedom? You get your info on repression and freedom from the same sources that Hailed Mubarak as a stalwart ally and great defender of Middle East peace. Up until two weeks ago you could not hear a word about his repression and his tyrannical regime. The west till now has no idea of how to react top his ouster. Your definition of freedom and democracy is being at the beck and call of the west and that racist state on the southern borders of Lebanon.
Finally yes the will of the people, whether you like it or not majority in Lebanon is with the March 8 movement you may sugar quoted any which way you want majority is NOT with you and last i hear democracy is majority rule.
One man One vote that is what i believe in . Can you say the same? is that what you believe in?
Posted by elsheikh | February 11, 2011, 2:43 pmBad Vibell,
yes i call on ALL dictators to be removed for sure as long as we agree on one man one vote. Simple formula, Majority rule everywhere. I am that confident that people will vote the right way. How confident are you? will you accept one man one vote everywhere? including Lebanon? Israel/ Palestine? (i do not believe in the two state solution by the way) one state for all.
why don’t you start explaining to me now why democracy does not work …..
Posted by elsheikh | February 11, 2011, 2:49 pmAhahahahaha! That made me laugh out loud.
You don’t know where I get my information from.
I am on the record (on this website and others) having railed against tyranny in the ME for much longer than 2 weeks.
Nice try.
My definition of democracy has nothing to do with the west. It has to do with free and fair representation. Something not a single arab state has ever known. NOT ONE.
I will be very happy when each and everyone of these tyrants get thrown off. I make no exceptions, unlike you, between pro-West and anti-West. Ghaddafi, Mubarak, Assad, Khamenei, Nassrallah, Bouteflika, Ibn Saud, etc. They’re ALL tyrants.
Do you disagree?
Posted by Bad Vilbel | February 11, 2011, 2:51 pmThe worst oppression, torture, assassinations, thuggery, utter corruption, lack of freedoms, discrimination, fraudulent elections, excessive policing, and much more is to be found in Syria. The Assad Dictatorship will be next. The amount of corruption in Syria pales in comparison to Egypt or Tunisia. There are Dozens of Assad cronies worth Tens of Billions Of USD. The Assad family is worth well over 30 Billion USD. The Assad military/security apparatus is the Regime and will be next in line to go, despite all the Western pundits who come to the rescue of this murderous Regime, claiming to defend Syria’s Dictatorship as an island of stability….
We have seen and heard all that MSM narrative for years… The Syrian people had enough from this criminal Dictatorial Mafia in Damascus.
Freedom for the Syrian People now.
Posted by HK | February 11, 2011, 2:52 pmAmal hails Mubarak’s departure
Posted by RandomThoughtOfTheDay | February 11, 2011, 2:55 pmyes i call on ALL dictators to be removed for sure as long as we agree on one man one vote. Simple formula, Majority rule everywhere. I am that confident that people will vote the right way. How confident are you? will you accept one man one vote everywhere? including Lebanon? Israel/ Palestine? (i do not believe in the two state solution by the way) one state for all.
This is exactly what I believe in, actually.
Maybe before attacking someone, in the future, you should not assume that because they disagree with you on one thing (HA’s hypocrisy), they are misinformed, ignorant, or pro-racism, or whatever.
I have stated MANY times on this blog that I don’t really believe in tribalism or even nationalism. I believe we are all human beings. We should all have the same rights, the same representation and a free and just society.
Idealistic as that may sound, I derive all my rants from that. I don’t rightly care if Mubarak was a US ally or the most anti-Israeli extermist. He was a tyrant. That’s all I care about. The same goes for Assad, Ghaddafi and all the others. I believe every human (and thus every Arab) should have the same rights, the same vote, be it in a state called “Israel” or “Palestine” or “Lebanon” or “Syria” or whatever. I don’t think it should matter if this human is a Jew, a Maronite, a Shia or a Sunni. I don’t think it should matter if he’s a minority or an overwhelming majority. I think everyone’s rights should be protected the same way, so it doesn’t matter anymore to a Maronite that he doesn’t have a “reserved quota”, or for a Jew to be afraid of “Arab demographics”.
Posted by Bad Vilbel | February 11, 2011, 2:57 pmI will agree with you if you include all the Israelie leadership for their treatment of Palestinians?
Elections in Lebanon are free and representation is fair according to the Lebanese constitution , (even though i do not favor the sectarian division of the parliament or offices, however the majority of Lebanese unfortunately disagrees with me ) last i checked Lebanon was the only democracy in the Middle East 🙂
Posted by elsheikh | February 11, 2011, 2:58 pmWalid Jumblatt looked at himself in the mirror and snickered “It’s good to be Lebanese”.
Posted by RandomThoughtOfTheDay | February 11, 2011, 2:58 pmNow maybe we can pray for Berri’s departure too…
Come on, ElSheikh, you gotta admit you can see the hypocrisy in Berri applauding Mubarak’s departure. Come on! The grandaddy of corruption in Lebanon himself! 🙂
Posted by Bad Vilbel | February 11, 2011, 2:59 pmi did not see your last post before i replied so it seems we do agree on something 🙂
I apologize if i misunderstood your points
Posted by elsheikh | February 11, 2011, 3:00 pmThe Middle East will not be free until HA, Assad and Khamenei are gone.
These should be the next steps.
Posted by anonymous | February 11, 2011, 3:02 pmIsraeli leaders, while not tyrants in the traditional sense (they do get elected, etc. dont hand over power to their sons, etc) are no better. I agree. They should all go.
And no, you are wrong, Lebanon is NOT a democracy. Not even close.
Lebanon is no different than Israel or South Africa in practical terms.
Any place where all humans don’t have the same rights, imo, is akin to Apartheid.
The fact that a druze or a shia does not have the right to a certain public job, by definition, is antithesis to democracy. I don’t see how that’s any less racist than Israel.
You wanna rant about racism? Be consistent. We’re just as racist in Lebanon as you accuse Israelis of being. EXACTLY the same.
Posted by Bad Vilbel | February 11, 2011, 3:03 pmكد عضو كتلة “المستقبل” النائب محمد قباني في بيان أن “ثورة 25 يناير ستنهي العصر الاسرائيلي الذي عشنا فيه منذ كامب دايفيد”، واشار الى انه “تعجز الكلمات عن وصف أهمية ما حدث في مصر، فالشعب العظيم بشبابه وسائر اطيافه حقق في 17 يوما ثورة حررت مصر، وستغير وجه الوطن العربي. 17 يوما تسمر فيها كل العرب وكل قادة العالم أمام شاشات التلفزة يشاهدون الثوار الشباب يصنعون التاريخ. في الدقائق التي تلت إعلان انتصار ثورة مصر لا يسمح المجال لأكثر من توجيه تحية تقدير واعجاب لشعب مصر الذي ولد من جديد. وكلمة مبروك نقولها من القلب لمصر، لفلسطين ، للبنان، ولكل العرب”.
Now that is laughable, Future movement considered a good word from Mubarak as a blessing. Oh how they are fast in abandoning a sinking ship
Posted by elsheikh | February 11, 2011, 3:03 pmBad Vilbel
I already agreed with you my friend and i did state that i do not myself agree with the system in Lebanon. the last sentence was meant as a joke.
If your really want my opinion real democracy (one that i can believe in is a utopia)it’s in our nature as human beings to be unfair. There is not one system that is truly democratic, not in the west and especially not in the east, we still need a lot to achieve. starting by eliminating religion and or nationalities both of which have killed more people in history than any other reason
Posted by elsheikh | February 11, 2011, 3:09 pmelsheikh,
Just two points:
(1) I am very much opposed to one man one vote anywhere in the world:-) How about the other half of the human race. do they count?
(2) Elections do not a democracy make. They are essential and a corner stone but must be combined with protection forfreedom of thought , expression and assembly. Once enough strong protections are provided and added to a free and representative elections democracy and a robust society have a chance. The Russian elections in addition to those in Iran and the Phillipines just to name a few countries are not bastions of democracy. Stop fooling yourself that all what is required is one person one vote.
( BTW , I noted that you never had anything to say in rebuttal to BV regarding the dictatorships in Iran and Syria the inspirational models for HA.)
Posted by Ghassan Karam | February 11, 2011, 3:11 pmSheikh:
I think you’ve missed BV’s question to you.
Why are you not out with pompoms calling for the overthrow of the Syrian and Iranian regimes?
Now’s your perfect chance to sing in unison with us!
Posted by Gabriel | February 11, 2011, 3:13 pmIn an equally educated world, democracy might work.
The problem is, we’re not.
Posted by RandomThoughtOfTheDay | February 11, 2011, 3:19 pmPowerful speech by Obama.
What happens in September will determine Assad’s fate.
Posted by RandomThoughtOfTheDay | February 11, 2011, 4:19 pmIt will also impact the entire Gulf.
Posted by RandomThoughtOfTheDay | February 11, 2011, 4:24 pmObama sounded like a cheerleader for the Egyptian youths.
Great speech indeed.
Posted by The prophet | February 11, 2011, 4:31 pmRandomThoughtOfTheDay 163,
They might change the law whereby a king has to be less then 80 years old to take the throne.lol
Posted by The prophet | February 11, 2011, 4:33 pmI hate to use this medium for personal gain, my appologies QN, but I need to Kknow the name of the singer of “Itha Alshab Yaouman Arad Al Hayat….” since I would like to use it on Wednesday in a rally in support of Egypt. Was it Oum Kalthoum and if so what is the title?
Posted by Ghassan Karam | February 11, 2011, 4:34 pmGhassan
Two down, many more to go.lol
I’m sure your more then just pleased with the ouster of Mubarak.lol
Your call for outrage, couple of months ago , was answered. It’s a wonderful beginning for the whole region.
Would you be kind enough to email me info on this rally?
Posted by The prophet | February 11, 2011, 4:49 pmhttp://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/NewsDesk.nsf/getstory?openform&99FC735983ACB173C2257834006E8863
Posted by RandomThoughtOfTheDay | February 11, 2011, 4:50 pmSounds like Karami is betting both the Syrian and Saudi regimes will fall.
Posted by RandomThoughtOfTheDay | February 11, 2011, 4:56 pmprophet,
Unfortunately this particular rally is only a campus event. Two down and at least seven big ones to go. This is turning out to be the Annus Mirabilis that I have been calling for as a wish. I guess wishes do become true at times.
Posted by Ghassan Karam | February 11, 2011, 4:57 pmBV,
To be fair, HA’s hypocrisy in this matter is not any different from the hypocrisy of all regimes, governments, and organizations in the world. No more or less. All parties in Lebanon, for instance, have colluded with outside governments that have provided them with support. March 14 did not see any issues with accepting the support of despots such as Mubarak, Saudi Arabia, or Jordan. Kataeb and LF have made no bones about working with and getting aid from Israel in the past. The Mufti’s praise of the Egyptian people against Mubarak is the beginning of the empty rhetoric from March 14.
I am sure that it is not the preference of HA that Assad oppress his people, but their overriding concern is aligning themselves with movements and governments who stand opposed to Israeli and US hegemony in the ME. They are in a much weaker position to affect the national and domestic policies of their allies and patrons. That would be suicide. They probably would not even exist were they to attempt such a noble but foolhardy gesture. One can make the argument that the US is the biggest hypocrite in this lot since their size and power can probably tolerate some experimentation of being on the side of the people in some country in the ME. In fact, their deliberate role in shoring up despots and suppressing any legitimate dissent on the part of the Arab people is even more pernicious. This does not excuse HA, but the vast political theater of the ME presents a very complicated picture.
Posted by Saint | February 11, 2011, 5:00 pm“Powerful speech by Obama”
“Great Speech indeed”.
Come on folks. What great hypocrisy. This is too little too late. Now the US is simply riding the wave. Listening to Obama, one would think they supported the demonstrators all along! In fact they were betting against them. If I were an Egyptian today, I would be very wary of what the US may be cooking, but I have great faith the Egyptian people are on the right path…
Posted by Saint | February 11, 2011, 5:06 pmSaint,
Fair enough. M14 have shown plenty of hypocrisy too. I zero’ed in a bit more on HA because unlike M14 (who’s congratulations came after Mubarak stepped down), HA as well as their Iranian patrons have been trying to pass Egypt’s revolution as their own in the past 2 weeks. That kinda reeked of hypocrisy more than anything else.
Posted by Bad Vilbel | February 11, 2011, 5:11 pmBV:
I’m not so sure that HA is not “actively” supportive of the non-Democracy that is Iran. Given of course that the Mullahs are lining their pockets.
Posted by Gabriel | February 11, 2011, 5:30 pmGhassan,
I don’t shed tears easily, but today I became tearful watching the joy of Egyptian people.
Yes Miracles do happen.lol
I truly think this revolution could change the middle east.
Posted by The prophet | February 11, 2011, 5:32 pmNow that we can all breathe a sigh of relief… who will get to the Top of the Pyramid first?
Posted by Gabriel | February 11, 2011, 5:33 pmBV-My favorite hypocrite is Obama, who seems to have even fooled some smart people on this blog. Obama (whose first name, Barak, ironically enough, is actually shorthand for Mubarak), did the biggest about-face that I know about of any past US administration, praising the Egyptian people even, as we know, that they, the US, still believe this is one of the biggest national security failings of the past few decades. What gull!
Posted by Saint | February 11, 2011, 5:34 pmSaint,
Put yourself in his shoes and change America and the word then.
Posted by RandomThoughtOfTheDay | February 11, 2011, 5:38 pmSaint:
I am sure that it is not the preference of HA that Assad oppress his people,
So… you think Obama’s preference was that Mubarak “oppresses” his people?
Posted by Gabriel | February 11, 2011, 5:38 pmworld
Posted by RandomThoughtOfTheDay | February 11, 2011, 5:38 pmSaint,172
I don’t doubt that the US was and is looking for its own interest, but Obama’s sincerity to the youth of Egypt and their inspiration was clear from day one.At least that is my impression.
Posted by The prophet | February 11, 2011, 5:39 pmCorrection:
aspirations,instead of inspiration.
Posted by The prophet | February 11, 2011, 5:41 pmGaby,
“So… you think Obama’s preference was that Mubarak “oppresses” his people”
Actually, exactly not. The US would love to see freedom and democracy in the ME. I genuinely believe that. Except that they know that in such an event, most Arab peoples would then choose a national course that would be inimical to current US interests. Therein the rub…
Posted by Saint | February 11, 2011, 5:43 pmRandom @178,
I do not want the US to change the world. Simply stop interfering in other countries’ business; stop underming legitimate governments; and certainly do not help despots oppress their own people. Even you can agree to that much..
Posted by Saint | February 11, 2011, 5:48 pmIt appears to me that Barak Obama shares your views.
Posted by RandomThoughtOfTheDay | February 11, 2011, 5:51 pmSaint,
“most Arab peoples would then choose a national course that would be inimical to current US interests.”
This is exactly what those regime were telling the US ,and secretly supporting radicals, while fighting them at the same time. Mubarak’s last trick was that either me or the brotherhood.
I think Democratic Arab states will force Washington to take into consideration the feelings and sentiments of Arabs much more than they ever did. Democratic Arab states will make it easier for the US to work for peace in the middle east,and convincing Israel that peace ,and viable Palestinian state is the only solution.
Posted by The prophet | February 11, 2011, 5:52 pmBarack
Posted by RandomThoughtOfTheDay | February 11, 2011, 5:52 pmI’m not exactly a fan of the way the Obama handled this whole Egypt affair. However, if we want to be honest and fair:
1) On the list of hypocrites, Obama comes WAY below most of the others we’ve mentioned here. Obama was always genuinely supportive of the people’s aspirations in Egypt. His administration wasn’t exactly sure how to best handle it (slow transition vs. immediate change) vis a vis of the US’s own interests. That is perfectly understandableThat’s their job (as the people elected to look after the interests of Americans). I don’t see all that much hypocrisy there.
2) This whole affair has gown to show one thing, once and for all: The US/Israel/Zionist Lobby/Elders of Zion/ does not “control the world” as some would have us believe. The US and Israel’s ability to influence events in the Arab world, while not necessarily non-existant (everyone has SOME influence) is really not this big conspiracy theory that I hear repeated here and elsewhere by some people (who tend to come from a certain camp).
Posted by Bad Vilbel | February 11, 2011, 5:54 pmBV,
Gibbs is out.
Posted by RandomThoughtOfTheDay | February 11, 2011, 5:56 pmRandom, “It appears to me that Barak Obama shares your views”
I will believe him when we see this lofty rhetoric translated into policy..
The US will keep resisting and will conspire and undermine and threaten and attack using all their powers, but there will come a day, and hopefully soon, when the US will be MADE to adhere to the principles and values it reserves for its people and afford the same rights to the Arabs. The US will not give them freedom. The Arabs will have to wrest it from them and their stooges in the area…Standing on the side of the people AFTER the change has happened is too little too late..
Posted by Saint | February 11, 2011, 6:05 pmBV @`88,
Point #1 is convoluted and juvenile. Only yesterday the US was supporting Mubarak and calling him a “moderate” leader. Moderate to whom? The hypocrisy is that the US claims it supports freedom and democracy, but was actively supporting an oppressor, and against the drop of a genuine democratic uprising, they were back-peddling and as you point out, weighing the risks to its country’s national security.But after the uprising could not be stopped, they come back and talk about the power of the people!
Point #2: this conspiracy thing right now is a red-herring and irrelevant. But to your point that the US enjoys only SOME influence, is a very shallow misread of the political dynamic of the ME. US and Israeli influence in the ME is not some conspiracy. It is a fact. It involves money, weaponry, political pressure, espionage, bombings, invasions, murder, etc…American diplomatic interference in affaires of most ME countries; American military bases in some Arab countries, American training of the intelligence and military cadre of some countries such as Egypt, Jordan, SA and others can also attest to that…who else enjoys the US’s level of influence that you may enlighten us on?
Posted by Saint | February 11, 2011, 6:29 pmProphet, “I think Democratic Arab states will force Washington to take into consideration the feelings and sentiments of Arabs much more than they ever did. Democratic Arab states will make it easier for the US to work for peace in the middle east,and convincing Israel that peace ,and viable Palestinian state is the only solution”
I also believe so Prophet. But it will come at the expense of the US accepting a more diminished political and military role in the area, which the current US establishment is loathe to accept. I think we are seeing the first light where the Arabs peoples will force the power of their free and democratic choice over an obdurate nation (the US). You can see the irony of that, considering the US public touting of Jeffersonian ideals. What you speak of will become a reality in spite of the US wishes. All in due time.
Posted by Saint | February 11, 2011, 7:02 pmSaint,
Israel has always claimed to be the only democracy in the area.It has used its democracy as an excuse , at times , not to negotiate , by claiming that its public may not accept this or that,while Arab side never had to as their public for approval.Arab public never counted as we just witnessed Mubarak dismissal of his people.
If democracy takes hold in Arab countries, Israel may be forced to negotiate in good faith . The US would need to balance its action knowing that Arab leaders have to account for their actions.Arab countries can negotiate with a stronger position. If they had to resort to war, they would need to take their public opinion into consideration .
This could be a game changer for everyone.
Obama’s statement this evening shows that He and his administration were forced to respect Egyptians aspiration.
Posted by The prophet | February 11, 2011, 7:56 pmI dont mean to rein in on the ” who is the biggest hypocrate” debate, but its pretty damn obvious that all parties are guilty.
Some are getting caught up with the romanticezed speeches of Obama who has a great writer working for him.But the U.S. administration is just using the playbook…support the regime dictator if he’s “our guy” until the dam breaks and a coup is inevitable, then switch rhetoric to serve the aspirations of the people.
History repeats itself….U.S. FP playbooks have not been updated.
On the other side of the coin, you have the Iranian regime and its proxy armies claiming victory. Umm, anyone who has been following the revolution since 25th Jan and even earlier throughout the decade know that it was a an anti-govt protest to reclaim dignity and rights,to stop policing brutality, widespread corruption and economic hardships.Voices came from all walks of life,ages,classes,faiths,professions etc…therefore it resembled,(not to mention the Tunisian revolution) the Green movement Of the Iranian uprising.
So, once again that playbook comes into play,SHN spins some poetic propoganda as does his masters in Iran to serve their own interests even if it is eye gougingly obvious. We can deduce from this , that politics itself is hypocracy…so lets leave the bickering and join the jubilation and exstacy in Liberation square.
Mabrouk Masr.3a2bel l 3ayzeen.
Posted by Maverick | February 11, 2011, 8:03 pmProphet,
To your point: had the Arab people been in charge of their countries, then the Palestinian issue would have been solved a long time ago. Unfortunately, their aspirations ran against the narrow and selfish interests of a few despots and the unquenchable hegemony of a superpower that saw it its geopolitical interest to help in their oppression. We are now at a turning point. I believe that the power and clarity of the demonstrators, and the lack of fear, now that they have tasted freedom, will ensure a democratically representative government (not without a challenge of course) which will begin a new course of history where the various Arab autocrats will eventually collapse and the US will be forced to see the liability of the intransigent Zionist positions on Palestine. I know the well-intentioned Mubarak Obama and the various democracy-loving forces in the ME and elsewhere will fight very hard to make that will not happen. But just as in Egypt, these things are simply a matter of time. Once the people decide to rise, it is over…
Posted by Saint | February 11, 2011, 8:24 pmLebanon has no better choice than becoming the Switzerland of the Middle East.
It worked for them, it can work for us.
Posted by RandomThoughtOfTheDay | February 11, 2011, 11:01 pmLet’s get back to our mountain roots, our love for banking and watches.
Posted by RandomThoughtOfTheDay | February 11, 2011, 11:16 pmFully agree with the positions of Saint@190-195…
Today is the 3rd anniversary of Imad F. Moughnieh’s assassination at Kfar Soussa in the heart of Damascus, by Asef Shawkat and his MI goons…
The JPost has come up today with a new theory about this assassination…in order to cover the tracks of Asef Shawkat.
The JPost and many other Israeli/US/EU publications have offered many wild and fantastical concocted stories during the last 3 years, precisely to cover the tracks of Asef Shawkat’s assassins, working on behalf of the Infamous White House Murder INC, since January 24th 2002, up until Feb. 12th 2008…and counting…
SHN & Hezbollah know exactly who assassinated Imad F. Moughnieh in Damascus, and Hizbullah knows precisely that it is Asef Shawkat and his MI killers who took Moughnieh out, in a trade-off with STL’s masters…who will afford protection for the Assad Regime from any indictments in the Hariri case…
So, if Hizballah still wants to retaliate for Imad F. Moughnieh’s assassination, the address is Damascus Syria… the MI squad of assassins and Asef Shawkat.
http://newhk.blogspot.com/2011/01/components-of-white-house-murder-incs.html
http://americanassassination.blogspot.com/2008/03/syria-lead-mughniyah-investigator.html
http://americanassassination.blogspot.com/2008/02/how-to-protect-prized-asset-of.html
Posted by HK | February 12, 2011, 5:23 amSayyed Hassan Nasrallah should continue to be extremely cautious and weary of Syrian assassins’ prying eyes…
U.S. President Barack Obama’s appointment of a U.S. Ambassador to Syria is definitely related to the situation in Lebanon….. and is a direct result of Syria accomplishing a “valuable mission” for the U.S.A./Israel nexus…, when Asef SHAWKAT’s goons assassinated Imad F. MOUGHNIEH in Damascus in 2008, and it is part and parcel of a number of missions Syria is expected to fulfill to mobilize a few pending issues in the Middle East…. One such mission, is Syria’s role in preventing Hezbollah from executing any military actions as part of its campaign against the Special CIA/MOSSAD Tribunal for Hezbollah defamation ….
Future missions expected of Syria since 2008 revolve around the urgent need of CIA/MOSSAD to attempt the assassination of Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah soonest … with Asef SHAWKAT’s valuable help as usual for the infamous White House Murder INC, since January 24th 2002….in all the assassinations in the Levant….”
If the Assad Mafia is to continue to be protected from STL’s shenanigans, it is expected of them to deliver Hassan Nasrallah’s head on a silver platter to CIA/MOSSAD….and Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah is absolutely right to continue to take all necessary precautions from Shawkat’s prying eyes at all times, wherever he goes….
http://newhk.blogspot.com/2011/01/obama-perpetuates-utter-lies-between.html
http://newhk.blogspot.com/2011/01/rip-elie-you-are-in-our-hearts-and.html
http://univercia.blogspot.com/2010/08/happy-birthday-to-sayyed-hassan.html
Posted by HK | February 12, 2011, 5:53 amHK,
You seem to know so much inside info and you are convinced of it as being irrefutable facts. I think you will be a valuable asset for HA so I suggest you offer your services.
I would also give you a friendly advice not to be interpreted in any other way, use caution and beware of those you are exposing, especially if you reside in the USA.
Posted by V | February 12, 2011, 6:11 am