As it so happens, there are other things one can do with a camera phone during a revolution besides filming gun battles.
I recently arrived late to a very good party, the party of Jiim Siin’s brilliant and wickedly satirical monologues about the Syrian uprising. Recorded on an iPhone by an anonymous Syrian fellow living in the diaspora, the series entitled وقائع طنجرة الضغط (“Chronicles of the Pressure Cooker”) is a collection of short audio clips of sketches, political allegories, and satirical musings on the revolution. You can listen to the entire series on his blog.
Among my favorites:
- Boiling up a new Constitution
- Don’t go…alone: A letter to Bashar al-Assad.
- Re-reading Syria as a sieve, rather than a pressure cooker…
- The most recent clip, excoriating the new Syrian constitution’s requirement that any presidential candidate be married to a Syrian woman.
- You know what? Do yourself a favor and listen to them all.
What I love about these clips is the language: a rich, pungent, evocative vernacular… basically colloquial poetry. Yes, I know I’m getting carried away, but I can’t really think of a more creative response to the situation than this.
I got in touch with Jiim Siin via Twitter. He tells me he was inspired by Arabic radio programs and by Monty Python’s Flying Circus, “for the absurdity…” His weekly missives bring to mind Jacques Barzun’s famous definition of decadence: “When people accept futility and the absurd as normal, the culture is decadent. The term is not a slur; it is a technical label. A decadent culture offers opportunities chiefly to the satirist…”
In Jiim Siin, the Syrian revolution has a very talented one indeed.
Qifa Nabki 
Thanks for sharing. This is priceless.
Posted by Maysaloon | March 8, 2012, 10:47 amBack to my point….
What could be more priceless than this forum that Elias has so graciously offered.
As always, many thanks QN.
Posted by Gabriel | March 8, 2012, 11:16 amThanx for sharing!
check also abou naddara’s videos, an artist/filmmaker from damascus: http://vimeo.com/user6924378
Posted by georges salameh | March 8, 2012, 2:09 pmHopefully QN can continue 🙂 :
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Politics/2012/Mar-07/165822-draft-law-governing-online-media-aims-to-regulate-protect-daouk.ashx#axzz1oYDTroqp
Posted by AIG | March 8, 2012, 2:22 pmSatire is a response to the questions we have been asking infuriated last three entries, namely the possibility of the veracity of reports claiming to be factual. While the perspective of the “reporter” will always taint the potential interpretation of facts, and while facts may indeed be fabricated for strategic purposes, the real question is about where do we get the truth about situations when the media, worldwide, has become unreliable in reporting truthfully.
The world/national media has become a.propagandistic tool in the hands of governments and interests groups. Occasionally, some reports may be truthful, but a majority of reports are imbued by political perspectives and aims. We discussed the Syrian media and its biases, but even so-called independent media outlets act in propagandistic fashion. Just today on NPR a report on NYPD program to spy on Arab and Islamic communities in the Northeastern US acted as propaganda. Neil Conan (sp?) Did not moderate as usual, but someone else presented “mapping” as perfectly legitimate when it is not. It is legal to map based on criminal events (murder, robberies, etc.) But not based on population. No one view was presented as critiquing the legitimacy of spying on a group of people wholesale (as a bigoted and racist practice undertaken by Raymond Kelly and his ilk comparable to Himmler’s “mapping” of Jews, Communists, and other minorities in Nazi Germany). No major respectable US media has linked the so-called on terror” and its perpetuation to the FBI entrapments of Arabs and Muslims in the US (80% of homegrown US terrorist activities is produced by informers) and the local authorities’ persecution and illegal surveillance of Arab and Muslim minorities. basically the US is fabricating US based terrorist threats to perpetuate the war on terror VIA fear and manipulations and no one is questioning the legitimacy of doing that. What can one expect from biased and regime- colluding media in terms of reporting on truth?
The internet may indeed offer alternatives and report on undesirable facts and situations but it can also be manipulated and used to construct realities.
Satire may be the last refuge of an apathetic or resigned population. Let US hope that more veracity loving web-based reports and Hoover would flourishrather than more truth- producing outlets.
Posted by Parrhesia | March 8, 2012, 6:05 pmDo we know which city does [J]amil [S]ito hail from? Wouldn’t it be great if he is a Homsi ? Lest we forget it was a Homsi who enriched the language with the creation of “Monhebakjieh” lol.
Posted by Ghassan Karam | March 8, 2012, 10:42 pmGreat post. Thanks!
Posted by jhshannon | March 8, 2012, 11:17 pmSyria arming Hezbollah? Getting ready for the Mother-of-all-Battles…
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Politics/May/29/Concrete-evidence-Syria-arming-Hizbullah.ashx#axzz1odDeOGzq
Posted by Akbar Palace | March 9, 2012, 10:57 amI know who that “unnamed security source” is.
His name is Captain Obvious.
Posted by Qifa Nabki | March 9, 2012, 11:10 amQN, its actually Captain 2 year old article
Posted by mo | March 9, 2012, 11:43 amAP,
Sleep deprivation?
Posted by danny | March 9, 2012, 11:45 amdanny,
Why do ask? Did I misspell something?
Posted by Akbar Palace | March 9, 2012, 1:23 pmI am not sure if this is satire also:
By the way, how does his Arabic sound?
Posted by AIG | March 9, 2012, 1:33 pmHis Arabic is very good.
He even name-checks a Julia Boutros song. 🙂
Posted by Qifa Nabki | March 9, 2012, 3:13 pmAP,
No. you posted a stale story link@8.The story is two years old…Did you just wake up? 😀
Posted by danny | March 9, 2012, 3:20 pmIf Dichters speech is intended as satire it is fantastic postmodern satire (assuming postmodern means material that acts as a paradox with questionable narrators).
Either way, it had me spitting my coffee out and laughing my head off.
Posted by mo | March 9, 2012, 4:41 pm… you posted a stale story…
Ooops. Soory, I didn’t check the date.
BTW – Can anyone tell me what Avi Dichter said?
Posted by Akbar Palace | March 9, 2012, 4:56 pmHe announced that he is defecting from the Israeli government and joining Hizbullah.
Posted by Qifa Nabki | March 9, 2012, 4:58 pmDichter said he supports the SNC but Ghalious has to go.
Elias, I used to engage in discussions with Jiim Siin on different Syrian blogs since 2005 … Always found him very balanced and moderate.
For some reason I used to think he is an Armenian who plays bass guitar in some cheesy Syrian band 🙂
(I told him already, in case he is listening now).
Posted by Alex | March 9, 2012, 5:18 pmLearn how to dance like an Arab in 4 easy steps
(I hope it is not stale too, I just received it)
Posted by Alex | March 9, 2012, 5:21 pmoh, and since one of Jiim Siin’s clips says that it is women’s day (march 8th? I did not know) … It seems the publishers of this journal decided to make use of my skills as a backward Middle Easterner as they are publishing my new paper on gender differences now! (I submitted it last year).
Yup … I demonstrate (in this case) that men are much smarter : )
“Results suggest that males outperform females in new tasks while using a menu driven interface and both new and common tasks while using an
icon based interface.”
Click to access JISSC.pdf
(first paper)
Posted by Alex | March 9, 2012, 5:36 pmHe announced that he is defecting from the Israeli government and joining Hizbullah.
QN,
You must have him confused with MK Ahmad Tibi.
Posted by Akbar Palace | March 9, 2012, 5:40 pmAlex,
Do you think Assad was pressured by the Israelis and world zionism thus forcing him to obliterate cities like Homs?
Posted by Akbar Palace | March 9, 2012, 5:55 pmAkbar, that’s more or less what Dichter was saying in arabic.
Posted by Alex | March 9, 2012, 6:04 pmDichter always took himself too seriously. I am going to flag this condescending crap under satire anyway 🙂
Posted by AIG | March 9, 2012, 8:02 pmAP,
He basically tells Syrians how much he feels for them and wishes the world will do something to stop it while saying that for obvious reasons Israel cannot do anything.
Posted by AIG | March 9, 2012, 8:21 pmAlex,
I appreciate your effort of whistling past the graveyard but don’t you think it may alienate people whose relatives are suffering at the hands of the regime?
Posted by AIG | March 9, 2012, 8:38 pmAvi and SHN may be related. They both slur their R’s and waive their finger at you when they talk. Even when trying to say something nice…
Posted by Johnny Seikaly | March 10, 2012, 5:04 am@27
It would be nice to see aggressors, colonizers and occupiers feeling for the suffering of their victims. Alas, this is done only when convenient for scoring some points in the public opinion arena.
Posted by Zen | March 10, 2012, 2:59 pmAlex,
Really, is that what Dichter said? Do the other arabic speakers here concur with your translation of Dichter?
But in any case Alex, I directed my question to you. Please answer if you’re not afraid to write your true feelings on the matter.
Posted by Akbar Palace | March 10, 2012, 7:20 pmAP,
Alex is still counting up to 300 protestors against his beloved regime. 😛
Posted by danny | March 10, 2012, 9:27 pmOn a unrelated subject, the huge success of the “iron dome” anti-missile system in the last 2 days is good news for Lebanon and Israel. It makes the chances of war between us go down dramatically since it severely limits the effectiveness of Hezbollah’s arsenal. Slowly but surely, Hezbollah’s missiles are becoming white elephants, quite useless but very expensive to maintain in working order.
Posted by AIG | March 11, 2012, 6:29 pmAlex is still counting up to 300 protestors against his beloved regime.
danny,
It’s a shame the Syrian President-for-Life™ of Syria is having difficulty getting his message through. And his love for his people is without question. If only the foreign terrorists would leave Syria so she can get back to the wonderful state she once was.
AIG,
I hope Iron Dome works against Scuds and the like. Saddam’s missiles got through, so what about similar missiles from potential enemies like Syria and Iran?
Posted by Akbar Palace | March 11, 2012, 7:25 pmSpeaking of satire, Michael Ramirez (my favorite conservative cartoonist) has an appropriate cartoon regarding Syria…
Posted by Akbar Palace | March 11, 2012, 7:32 pm
Posted by marillionlb | March 12, 2012, 7:18 amHelping the Rejectionists at no cost
I’ll be President Peres’ friend if he gives up on the Zionist Project.
Posted by Akbar Palace | March 12, 2012, 8:27 amQN, danny, BV, mo, marillion ….
I hope that you will not mind if I attempt to shift the discussion back to Lebanon for the duration of this post.
I am desperate for an idea about a plan/strategy/tactic… that would allow me , and others like me, to raise a very important issue that would be taken seriously not by a few hundred or even a few thousand readers but by the powers that be. I am sick and tired of having the Lebanese government determine my identity. I do understand that many/most of the Lebanese might not object to the fact that the government determines who they are but there must be a way to challenge the Lebanese government from labelling me as a Maronite based on the accident of birth. What if I do not want to be a Maronite? Shouldn’t I have a say in who represents me in government? What if I want to run for office as an atheist? Shouldn’t I have the right to do so…
I don’t want anyone to decide who I am and what I stand for. It is not the governments’ business and I do not believe that the constitution allows the government to silence me. I am an atheist if I choose to be and I am a Moslem or Christian if I choose to be and they should have no say in the matter. Is there any reason why i should not be able to run for office in Bint Jbail or in Basta? My point very simply is this Is there anyway that I can challenge the Lebanese government on such grounds? There must be a way that the government officials will have to take me and those like me seriously. I just do not want them to label me and to decide who I am when they have no idea what I stand for. I am reaching out for effective suggestions out of frustration. If nothing cab be done then maybe I should consider denouncing my citizenship since I do not value a citizenship that refuses to look at me as an individual with my own political identity and my own values. ( I hope that this does not sound like a rant but I an so frustrated by the lack of respect for individual rights when all the politicians have nothing to say except extoll freedom and democracy).
Posted by Ghassan Karam | March 12, 2012, 7:38 pmAhh, the idealism of youth.
😉
PS: Have you “shatabet”?
Posted by Qifa Nabki | March 12, 2012, 7:56 pmQN,
I have not simply because it does not make any difference. They still go on labeling and categorizing but above all making choices on my behalf.
I guess that some of us never grow up 🙂
Posted by Ghassan Karam | March 12, 2012, 10:25 pmGK,
Sorry, you do not fit in the Middle East anymore 🙂
I heard of a new land between Europe and and India that you can find if you sail west. Rumor has it you can find many people like you there.
Posted by AIG | March 12, 2012, 11:57 pmGus,
I hope this was your attempt at satire after enjoying a nice sip of Oban. 😛
How can we change a system or challenge a “constitution” or laws that are created by men who have always that overriding veto (interpret anything with the gun pointed at your head…)? In Lebanon you are given an “offer you can’t refuse”! Do as you are told or die. I will repeat again and again: Guns and all armed parties have to disappear before any changes are possibel. At this moment the whole system runs more smoothly than any mafia boss had envisioned.
My suggestion…oban trumps all; until replacement found. 😀
Posted by danny | March 13, 2012, 7:29 amlaghavulin?
Posted by R | March 13, 2012, 10:01 amAIG,
I am not a gold bug, I have no interest in El Dorado 🙂
danny,
I will drink to that. BTW, can you tell the difference between the 14 and the 18 year old single malt? I have never tried the 24 or is 32 year old one.
Posted by Ghassan Karam | March 13, 2012, 11:12 amGK, you need to challenge the Lebanese people not the government, the population is infected with the sectarian bug. I have a non-Lebanese name and i greatly enjoy the confusion on the faces of Lebanese people i meet when trying to find out which religion or sect i belong to, it’s the first thing they wana know when they meet someone so they can adjust the way they talk or deal with you 🙂
Posted by Vulcan | March 13, 2012, 11:52 amVulcan,
I understand totally what you are saying. My only disagreement is in regards to the role of government. Individuals can harbour bigotry no matter what the law of the land. My point is that government should set an example to its citizens by not categorizing people and by offering all of them an equal opportunity. What is even worse is that a Lebanese does not have a say in how he/she is categorized. Citizens are treated as pawnsin a chess game played by the clergy and a few politicians.
Posted by Ghassan Karam | March 13, 2012, 3:11 pmI have not had the pleasure of sipping on the 32 yr one either…I think it is rare. The difference is for connoisseurs Gus. The older it is the smoother it gets. Almost no feel or burn of alcohol. I prefer the 14 as the 18 year old is not available always.
Posted by danny | March 13, 2012, 6:48 pmQN
I know that LIRA will not have an impact on this blog or any of the blogs that do not carry the .lb designation but I think that the issue is worth looking into if for nothing else but the fact that it is , unfortunately, another illustration of the ammateurism that passes for governance in Lebanon.
A cabinet minister is proud of the fact that he himself has written a proposed law that is not needed in the first place and that is very badly thought out. The whole law proposes registering every single blog in Lebanon. The guy must be clueless. Does he realise that each person could have more than one blog and that most blogs are of very limited circulation? Does the guy really expect every 15 year old to register her blog and to be treated as a journalist, whatever that means. Is there anyone in the government who understands how blogs are set up? He proposes that each blog must have a manager and that a person cannot manage more than one blog. Does anyone realize that it is possible for a person to have possibly ten blogs or even more and that starting each one does not require than two minutes. So let them make proposals, empty proposals and let them feel that since they have submitted these proposals then they are doing productive work. In the final analysis they are about to suffocate the very few blogs in a country of4.5 million.
LIRA must not pass because it is an exercise in absurdity. It sure feels like the minister feels guilty that he has not done anything ever since his appointment and so it is time for him to impose laws that are irrelevant, meaningless and their implementation only means that the blogs will get registered in a foreign country.
BTW go to Baladiblog.com to see a 7 minute on board fight between two :Lebanese passengers on an MEA flight last night..
Posted by Ghassan Karam | March 13, 2012, 10:35 pmHere’s an interesting story. I guess these are lies too eh?
http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/1145824–mostafa-a-syrian-engineer-now-a-refugee-in-canada-secretly-videoed-atrocities-and-posted-them-on-youtube?bn=1
Posted by danny | March 14, 2012, 7:18 amThe connection is finally clear!
Assad has been buying itunes music via Alex! Norman is responsible for the fondue set and the candles!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/mar/14/assad-emails-lift-lid-inner-circle
Posted by AIG | March 14, 2012, 5:22 pmKings and Queens who lost track of their People NewZ
And Marie Antoinette said, “Let them eat cake” …
Posted by Akbar Palace | March 14, 2012, 5:39 pmAIG,
Tnx for the link. To me, the most significant part, besides Asma acting like a Marie Antoinette, is his description “rubbish laws of parties, elections, media”.
I have mentioned my suspicion many times over the past few months that to authorize numerous parties without offering personal freedom guarantees is similar to establishing Baath subsidiaries instead of genuinely independent parties. It looks like that is precisely what they had in mind all along.
Posted by Ghassan Karam | March 14, 2012, 6:22 pmSheherazad Jaafari AKA Parviziyi ? !
Posted by Vulcan | March 14, 2012, 6:48 pmGK, After living here for 5 years now I can conclude that Lebanese are beyond repair. It’s not an issue the government can fix. It’s the people themselves that are to blame. They like being classified into religious categories. I say this because Lebanese are the MOST racist people on Earth. They prefer to be able to differentiate themselves from the other by the accident of birth.
The other thing I have come to notice is that the Lebanese individual is quite stupid. He/she does not know how to obey simple traffic laws or follow clear signage. I used to think it was Lebanese exceptionalism that allowed the average driver here not to follow any of the rules. I don’t think that to be the case anymore. I think they are just plain stupid.
Ziad Rahbani once said in the early 90s that to fix Lebanon one should take all the Lebanese that are resident and send them abroad and take all the Lebanese that are abroad and bring them back to Lebanon to rebuild. I still think this is the best solution for this little rathole of a country.
Excuse the rant, but traffic was especially horrific on this morning’s commute. And really there is no excuse for the traffic other than sheer stupidity of people. The Lebanese does not understand that creating additional lanes on a highway exit only makes the bottleneck worse. The logic is not there – they are imbeciles.
Other examples of the sheer stupidity…
1) re-electing the same old baboons over and over again when there has been no improvements to infrastructure, way of life or economic well being in 20 years. Still NO F’IN Electricity.
2) racism. I was involved in a conversation with some PhD’s that run a university here and they were going on and on those ‘stupid’ Indians. You should see the looks I got when I mentioned that India has some of the top universities and technology corridors in the world.
3) Lack of shame. These people have no shame. I think it is because they are too stupid to realize they are behaving in a shameful manner.
On a more positive note:
QN, I had the pleasure of meeting your brother in Riyadh a few weeks back. He is a good friend of my cousin’s – who you also know well.
Posted by Johnny Seikaly | March 15, 2012, 4:07 am#AP, it’s not “cake”… it’s brioche 🙂
It’s always funny to read AP, AIG and co. when they contribute on “lighter” posts as this one… my dear friends, you will probably never be accepted in the region, so save your energy, do not bother joke, smile and be funny. Don’t try to get along, it’s useless. No way! 🙂
Posted by 3issa | March 15, 2012, 6:37 amI like this one:
Posted by 3issa | March 15, 2012, 6:39 amIs the Zayed Center for Coordination and Follow Up a place to get physical therapy NewZ
A United Nations panel has adopted a report praising Qaddafi-era Libya for its human rights record, a year after the report was sidelined amid international objection.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/03/14/un-panel-adopts-sidelined-report-that-praised-qaddafi-rights-record/?test=latestnews#ixzz1pBwjSdu1
Posted by Akbar Palace | March 15, 2012, 9:35 am3issa- why do you say that Israelis will not be accepted or welcome? it is such idiotic and racist behavior and predictions that are the main reason behind the ills of the Arabs… who is next after the Jews to be kicked out ? the Shi’aa or the Christians?
Thankfully our dear Jewish cousins are here to stay whether you or anyone else likes it or not.
Posted by Vulcan | March 15, 2012, 10:32 amWalking the ME Tight Rope
Thankfully our dear Jewish cousins are here to stay whether you or anyone else likes it or not.
Vulcan,
Thanks. You could be whacked for making such statements in public.
Posted by Akbar Palace | March 15, 2012, 10:57 amVulcan,
Taking 3issa’s comments as racist and understanding his position as being against Jewish means you have no idea what the Arab-Israeli issue is about – They will never be accepted or welcome as Zionists or Israelis; It has nothing to do with their religion but their politics and colonialism and if you are an Arab, thankfully you are still in a minority of those that want their politics or even “thankful” for it.
Posted by mo | March 15, 2012, 11:19 amMo:
If they are never accepted/welcomed as “Zionists or Israelis” then how else could the Jews be accepted?
Posted by Gabriel | March 15, 2012, 11:26 amMo,
Well, the Arab Israeli conflict is not about colonialism. My parents were both born in Israel and so was I. My kids were born here and if yours were born in the US, then guess what? My kids are more indigenous than yours.
By the way, all the Lebanese that immigrated to the US or Australia, are they “colonialists”? Did they get permission from the Native Americans and Aborigines or are they just taking advantage of the rules put in place by colonial powers?
Posted by AIG | March 15, 2012, 11:31 amGabriel,
As they were and always have been, as people without an agenda that includes the forceful removal of people from their lands.
AIG,
You can do better than that. Inheriting stolen land doesnt make it any less stolen and if you know its stolen then inheriting it doesnt make you any less of a theif. Your argument is that as long as you steal something for long enough then you are entitled to it? Then hey by your argument, the Jews lost the land 2000 years ago, how many generations of people have lived on the land since? What right do you have to come and take it? Oh yeah you were there first apparently. But then that leads us back to the start doesnt it?
But seriously, why do you bother replying to me? Our respective positions are absolute, you know that and I know that.
Posted by mo | March 15, 2012, 12:05 pmThe Only ME Freedom endorsed by Arab Despots
Your argument is that as long as you steal something for long enough then you are entitled to it?
mo,
And your argument is to keep arabs in the 8th century and continuously focused on unwinnable wars.
Quite an achievement I’d say.
Posted by Akbar Palace | March 15, 2012, 12:23 pmMo,
Your position is absolute, really? You live in the US and your tax dollars and government help Israel. It seems your position is somewhat flexible.
So are all Americans and Australians “thieves” for having inherited stolen land? My argument is simple. Carrying multi-generation grudges is foolish and extreme. Is that the game you really want to play? How do you feel about a law that says that a child and grandchild of terrorists are also terrorists? You would be the first against such law it it is proposed in the US.
Posted by AIG | March 15, 2012, 12:51 pmMo,
The point is they are now there. They’ve been there for 60 years or so.
I’m still not clear what your proposal for them is. Swallow up the land into a Greater Syria, so they can fall under the rule of Assad? Maybe make them citizens of an Egyptian state?
Posted by Gabriel | March 15, 2012, 1:07 pmAIG,
To save you some trouble, I dont currently or ever have lived in the US.
My position on American and Australia is exactly the same as Palestine but they are not my problem.
Carrying multi-generation grudges is foolish? I doubt the good people at the SImon Wiesenthal center would agree. But this isnt a grudge its about injustice and an injustice remains an injustice irrespctive of time. The only difference is whether the victims of the injustice wish to continue the fight for justice.
The very same kids and grandkids that you claim are not guily of collonialism are the depriving the kids and grandkids of Palestinians of that which is rightfully theirs.
Your argument on a “terrorist” law is flawed. The children or grandchildren of someone who blows up an airline do not profit from that act after the fact at the expense of the victims. Your argument would make sense if I was claiming to want revenge for your forefathers actions. I dont, and I dont care about your forefathers, I care about the Israelis that continue to profit from and perpetuate the injustice started by your forefathers.. Therefore, my opposition to your state is not historical but very current.
Posted by mo | March 15, 2012, 1:11 pmGabriel,
If you are asking me to care about what happens to the Israelis after any hypothetical restitution of the state of Palestine then the answer is I dont.
Posted by mo | March 15, 2012, 1:16 pmMo,
Where do you live if I may ask?
Are the people at the Wiesenthal center going after the kids and grandchildren of Nazis? Of course not. Because it is foolish to carry a multi-generation grudge.
So you would support a law in which it is permissible to go after the children or grandchildren or any descendant of thieves in order to obtain “justice”?
Also, are you for monetary compensation or is the way to justice only by returning the exact thing taken?
Posted by AIG | March 15, 2012, 2:03 pmMO, you and I have had this conversation before, i used to comment under V. when you used to accuse me of being a “Traitor” 🙂
I am a Lebanese Arab and i DO KNOW the Arab Israeli conflict very well, i was born in Khiam South Lebanon, and i saw it all before exiling myself to the USA in 1982. the big lie that this conflict is about Zionists and not Jews is just that, a big lie you maybe able to fool people like Lally for example but you cant fool me, I am one of you ya msha7ar, i know how much LOVE the Arabs have for Jews, if they could just stop being Zionists right? it is engraved in our culture and even religion to hate them, we hated them way before the UN partitioned the land and gave them their well deserved part… ever since we decided to throw them in the sea under the leadership of the Arafats, Nassers, Assads, Sadams and now his eminence Nassrallah the great.
look at what they have accomplished as people and as a country and look at the accomplishments of the Palestinians and Arabs in general. you tell me who is a failed nation, us or them ?
Posted by Vulcan | March 15, 2012, 3:31 pmOuch.
Posted by Akbar Palace | March 15, 2012, 3:35 pmWhat gives the right to the Arabs to have an agenda but the Jewish people cannot have one ? why deny their natural given right to self determination ? they are linked to this land by history and facts, if you are to go to the argument that they have colonized a land that isn’t theirs, well they were there before the Muslim Arabs colonized it.
Let the people live man, there is so much fucking Land for everybody, we are tired of wars and all this racist treatment of minorities in the Middle East we are tired of your lies, this is not about justice for the Palestinians, we the Lebanese have committed atrocities towards the Palestinians, look at how the Arabs gassed the Kurds,? if its about Justice for the homeless and oppressed, why aren’t you for a Kurdistan in the heart of the Arab world ?. this is not about the righteousness of the Sayed, Imam and Batrak, its all about hate and intolerance. 7ello 3an Allah taba3na.
Posted by Vulcan | March 15, 2012, 3:52 pmAIG#68
Not sure if that was a slip. I am not sure if it’s people at the Wiesenthal center or not going after the “Children of Nazis”.
But Germany has been paying up for quite a few years. No doubt from tax payers. Many of whom no doubt are not even “Children of Nazis”.
Mo:
So why say this is not about “Jews”. Surely it’s about “Jews”, their “agenda”. You don’t even differentiate between Israelis and Zionists. Some Israelis are Arabs. I am assuming you care about the “Arab” Israelis, and care very much what happens to them.
What is your end game?
Is it to call the land “Palestine”?
Expelling “Jews” that are there currently? Or can they continue to live there?
Is it just about letting the Palestinians go back?
Posted by Gabriel | March 15, 2012, 4:26 pmGabriel,
Are you implying that the Wiesenthal center is trying to catch the children of Nazi war criminals? Are you serious?
I have no problem with reparations as long as it is for everybody, Palestinians, Jews from Arab countries and the Jews from Poland.
Germans are paying reparations, not having their houses taken from them or have rockets being shot at them.
Posted by AIG | March 15, 2012, 4:44 pmVulcan,
Firstly, I feel sorry for you as you obviously have been around some pretty bad examples to leave you with such bile. And your history lessons probably require some backup of the claims you make. But most of all, if you wish to have a debate where you get to set both your side of the argument and you get to frame my side all the while calling me a liar then we obviously have nothing to talk about.
By the by, they can have as much as land as they like if they wish to buy it and live in peace.
I get a little tetchy when people go around stealing land but hey im sure if they werent Jews I’d be ok with that right cause its all about the religion and nothing to do with the crime. In fact, I allow all non-Jewsih burglars into my house all the time.
Grow up.
Gabriel,
Maybe you are making the error of not differentiating Jews from Israelis. You dont have to be Jewish to be a Zionist and you aren’t automatically a Zionist if you are Jewish.I do not consider Israeli Arabs as Israeli unless they really want to be in which case I would class them as Zionists as well and conversely I do not consider a Jew a Zionist unless he wants to be. And even then, if someone is a Zionist not living in Israel then I have no problem with them.
End game? Simply Justice. Yes, for starters the return of all Palestinians and the return of their lands and homes. What happens to the Israelis after that is up to the injured party. Let me put it this way. If I see someone stealing my car I will chase them for as long as I can. If I catch them and get my car back how the car theif gets home is really not my problem.
AIG,
You are I think being intentionally obtuse now. I am not after the kids for justice, I am after justice itself. Stolen car analogy: If you steal my car, and your kid inherits the car, its still a stolen car. The decendants may not be guilty of stealing the car but I still want my car back. Easy enough to understand.
Posted by mo | March 15, 2012, 5:21 pmMo,
After 60 years and 4 generations, what you are seeking is not justice, it is vengeance. You can call it justice all you want but what you want to do is ethnically cleanse Jews from their homes. If you were seeking justice you would agree to reparations. You are carrying a multi generation grudge since you want to reverse a situation that is irreversible. It is like me insisting that the Germans bring to life the 6 million Jews they murdered before I can accept them.
Posted by AIG | March 15, 2012, 5:58 pmLike I said, absolute positions. You can call it what you like, and you can consider the situation as irreversible as you like, But theres a whole bunch of differences between making the dead walk again and reclaiming land and 60 years is not nearly long enough for people to forget your crimes (least of all becasue you are more than happy to continuously add to the rap sheet), And what justice system do you follow that allows the criminal to decide what entails justice to the victim?
And I certainly cannot be ethnically cleansing anyone from their home if it aint their home and seriously, an Israeli complaining about an Arab wanting to ethnically cleanse him from his home?
You got the market in hypocrisy all sewn up then.
Posted by mo | March 15, 2012, 6:11 pmMo,
My crimes? What crimes? A person who was 18 in 1948 is 82 years old today. The “criminals” are mostly dead or irrelevant. There were 500,000 Jews in Israel in 1948. There are 5.5 million now. Half of them descendants of Jews expelled from Arab countries. And who is asking you to forget anything?
You remind me of the extremists in Israel who advocate transferring the Palestinians to other countries because it is not ethnic cleansing since they are not living in their homes anyway. If 60 years is not long enough, why are 2000 years long enough? Where does this craziness end? When you obliterate us or we obliterate you?
And what exactly do I say to a settler that maintains that for the Arabs there is no difference between Tel-Aviv and Hebron? That he is right because you see no distinction between the two and therefore we shouldn’t compromise on Hebron because it won’t bring us peace anyway?
The Palestinians were wronged. But the only way to reach peace is through an historical compromise, not some pie in sky suicidal pursuit of justice.
Posted by AIG | March 15, 2012, 6:52 pmVulcan, how do you feel after calling someone racist? good? do you feel it was needed?
Our dear cousins are most than welcome to stay, ahlan wa sahlan, as long as they stop playing around and let us get back in…it’s raining outside.
Another Israeli Guy and Greater Palace, you see? joking time is over. After one or two smiles, here you go, your are reminded who you are, what legitimacy you have and what circumstances brought you there.
Again I repeat: you are not welcome. Either you live equally with your fellow Arabs, or pack up. Let the refugees come back, then will see…if the situation is really impossible to bear: LIFO (last in, first out)
In short, you will always be the sociopath bully in the kindergarten, alone in his corner, as long as you don’t want to treat your garten mate as your equal.
So for the moment, you are not invited to our parties, fights, celebrations and rituals. Just leave it.
Gabriel? Shoo ya3ni? You asked me how Jews can be accepted…spare me please.
What happened? since you finally stated that you are sympathetic to the Zionists, it’s like…everything is changed 🙂
Posted by 3issa | March 15, 2012, 7:02 pmAIG
I’m waiting for your motto : “if you don’t accept us, that’s fine…so come throw us out if you dare”…
Usually, you declare it earlier in the conversation.
Posted by 3issa | March 15, 2012, 7:06 pm3issa,
That goes without saying. You really think we are waiting to be accepted?
By the way, when are you coming to throw us out? And why haven’t you come sooner? What are you waiting for? Please explain.
Posted by AIG | March 15, 2012, 7:14 pmAIG@73:
No, I didn’t make that suggestion. I said the Germans paid an enormous amount of “reparations” to the Jews. And it is not just the “Children of Nazis” who footed the bill.
You are open to reparation, as long as it reciprocal.
We haven’t gotten a straight answer from Mo regarding his expectations, but suppose he says all his expectations are is that you open the borders, and let the Palestinians all back in? And in return, Babylonian Jewry can freely go back to Iraq?
Land in Tel Aviv, for Land in Baghdad.
Again, we should really get a straight answer from Mo on what his views are, but I don’t think he necessarily wants to “throw” you out of your home. Maybe he just meant he wants to move next door.
Or maybe he does.
Posted by Gabriel | March 15, 2012, 7:16 pm3issa, 7abib albi. Did I really ask you anything? My question was directed to Mo. Unless you are really just Mo, with another moniker :).
Posted by Gabriel | March 15, 2012, 7:18 pmMo:
You are not answering the questions. Only speaking of lofty principles and ideas.
There is a reality on the ground. It is not enough for you to speak in general principles.
I am not confused between the terms “Israel”, “Zionists” and “Jews”. You say you are not directing your criticisms on “Jews”, but yet, you appear to conflate all three terms.
@59, you said they will not be accepted ” as Zionists or Israelis;”
What is Israeli?
Now you say… “I do not consider Israeli Arabs as Israeli unless they really want to be in which case I would class them as Zionists ”
So if an Arab in Israel decides that he would rather be in a State called Israel, than for this state to be dissolved into “Palestine” where he would fall under the tutelage of Mahmood Abbas, or Hamas… both of which he considers to be corrupt, or, or… then automatically you would label them as Zionist?
And if so, what’s your position vis-a-vis those Zionist Arab Israelis?
I’ll get to the bit about the “Stolen cars” example when I understand a little better what your proposal for those Zionists- Arabs or Jews- really translates to on the ground.
Posted by Gabriel | March 15, 2012, 7:25 pmAIG#80…you da man! shaft!
GAB#82…mea culpa! leila sa3eeda!
Posted by 3issa | March 15, 2012, 7:29 pmGabriel,
The Germans paid 3 billion marks over 14 years starting in the early fifties. Not an enormous amount by any measure, a measly $3,000 per death. It did help Israel in its early years. Do you think the Palestinians would accept such an agreement? And let’s not forget that the Germans were also paying it forward since they received tons of money themselves from the US via the Marshall plan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparations_Agreement_between_Israel_and_West_Germany
Posted by AIG | March 15, 2012, 7:41 pmGabriel,
No Im not 3issa, the writing style is very different and for what its worth, yes I do believe that any Israeli of Arab descent should be free to return to their country of origin and should get back anything taken from their family.
As for throwing people out of their homes, let me see if I can make this clear. The home originaly belongs to a Palestinian or at least the land its on did. My goal is ownership of that property revert to those it was taken from and the right to return to it be given (or taken). Its then up to the owner who is evicted or who is not and I really really dont care whether they are or are not. That is as much as a straight answer as I can ever give.
AIG,
The term “you” refers to Israelis. Stop being obtuse just to score points. Its silly and you have commented on here enough for everyone to know youre not that slow.
What you say to the settler is that hes right. I dont see a distinction between Hebron and Tel Aviv.
And you accept that the Palestinians were wronged and yet you argue that they should compromise (which is a silly position anyway since Israel has never wanted to compromise and merely demanded the Palestinians sign a “peace treaty” that is in effect a surrender to any claims to any rights they may have to sovreignty, water or any other natural resources.
Again seriously, why are bothering with this discussion? You want to prove that my position is irrational, unconscionable, extravagant, senseless, unrealisitc? To whom? Do you think you believe you are going to talk me round or feel sympathy for your plight as an Israeli who bears no guilt for where his parents chose to bear him? Its as likely to happen as I am going to convince you that all Palestinians should be allowed back to Palestinians.
Posted by mo | March 15, 2012, 7:44 pmGabriel,
re. your second post. What happens to Israeli Arabs under a Palestinian state is that they become Palestinians. If they are unhappy about that, im sure in this hypothetical situation, the world would open its arms to all Israeli Passport holders and im sure wont discriminate against Arab Israeli passport holders…..But anyone wishing for the continuation of the State of Israel is a Zionist. Its not my label, its simple logic. Just as anyone who wishes for a communist system is a communist. I dont understand what is complicated about that.
What is Israeli? Someone living in Israel. No more Israel, no more Israelis. My point about not being about “Jews” is simple. Do you honestly believe that I would not feel the way I do about Palestine if those who had colonozed it where Bhuddists or Protestants? The point is the fight is against the act not necessarily the actor.
Posted by mo | March 15, 2012, 7:52 pmGabriel,
Check this site:
http://www.history.ucsb.edu/faculty/marcuse/projects/currency.htm
In 1952, the exchange rate was 4.2 marks per dollar. The total reparations were therefore $714 million 1952 dollars.
Posted by AIG | March 15, 2012, 7:53 pmAIG:
I didn’t think the reparations were for lives lost- but for property and valuables expropriated.
I also think the whole reparation for the Holocaust, as far as I know, was a new precedent, was it not?
I am also not here to argue whether 3 billion was enough or not. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn’t. The point is- the Jews didn’t just walk away and let it go. According to Wikipedia link you put, even now, in 2009, some Israeli foreign minister wanted to get $1billion more from the Germans.
Now perhaps the type of settlement you are ok with was a financial one. And perhaps the type of settlement that Mo would accept is a land one. But these are semantics. In both cases, neither Jew nor Arab seems to have dropped a historical grievance.
As to your last question, I don’t know what the Palestinians would or would not accept.
Posted by Gabriel | March 15, 2012, 10:20 pmMo #87,
The question is not one of semantics. Surely it matters not to you whether this land is called “Israel” or “Palestine” or “Basketcase Republic”.
The issue for you is not that there exists a State of Israel. The issue is that this State is today dominated by “Jews”.
Let us say, in our hypothetical example, that every Palestinian returns to Tel Aviv and to Haifa, and become friendly neighbours of AIG and AP. Would this be an acceptable situation for you?
What it all those Palestinians were to come back and say that they have taken a liking to the name “Israel”. Is that situation acceptable to you?
As I said, I don’t believe your issue is with the name Israel.
Which brings me back to the question of those Israeli Arabs. Let’s say in our hypothetical example that the Palestinians went back to their homes. And that this polity- Israel- still remained predominantly Jewish.
Then a referendum was conducted, the subject of which was “Should we join with the West Bank and Gaza as 1 country”. And an Arab citizen of Israel says- No. I don’t think we should become one polity. For reasons that most likely are NOT because they believe Israel should be majority Jewish- but because they may like that there is a functioning democratic system in this state that they live in.
Do you consider them Zionists?
Regarding your example about Protestants and Bhuddists. I don’t doubt that you would feel the same way.
There is no question in my mind that part of rationale is one of Justice.
What I do have a doubt in my mind is whether or not you would react the same way if “Muslims” were involved.
Posted by Gabriel | March 15, 2012, 10:53 pmPS- I know you are not Issa. I was toying with him.
Posted by Gabriel | March 15, 2012, 10:55 pmGabriel,
No, it is not that the state is dominated by Jews but by colonists. It may not seem like a major distinction to you but it is to me.
To answer your questions as succinctly as possible. Any and all hypothesis above are predicated on some sort of solution that has not been “imposed” on the Palestinians. What the Palestinians choose to do after that solution would no longer be something that troubles me and I would accept it.
Once justice is served, everyone can go on living their lives and if the Arabs decided that actually they like Israel and what they want more than anything is to live in a Jewish state then it will be their choice. My opposition to Israel at that point would be over.
Posted by mo | March 16, 2012, 7:00 amAIG, et al,
Here’s a Daily Mail article on Asma Assad. Note all the VIPs she managed to befriend over the years: Sarkosy, Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt, Sting, Andrew Tabler, and the famous political commentator known worldwide: Professor Joshua Landis. The most “liberal” among us. (Of course, Benjamin Netanyahu has been disliked by Nicolas Sarkozy and Obama.)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2115648/Syria-Asma-al-Assad-shopped-baubles-Harrods-husband-slaughtered-thousands.html
In the words of one of my favorite Israeli politicians, Moshe Arens, all I can say is:
“I don’t want to tell you I told you so, but I told you so.”
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1295&dat=19900927&id=vG9PAAAAIBAJ&sjid=ZZADAAAAIBAJ&pg=5896,3633505
Posted by Akbar Palace | March 16, 2012, 7:27 amOnce justice is served, everyone can go on living their lives and if the Arabs decided that actually they like Israel and what they want more than anything is to live in a Jewish state then it will be their choice.
Mo,
When do you think “justice will be served” in Egypt and Syria?
Posted by Akbar Palace | March 16, 2012, 7:29 amMo:
Thanks- this is the type of clarity in the response I was looking for.
Now here’s my issue.
In #59, you use the word Never. Never is an extreme adjective. It’s an awfully long time. Injustices happen all the time, and if people were Never to let them go, well there’s a recipe for perpetual conflict!
Take our friend Issa (Issa, now you can jump in), he’s from North Africa. Over 1000 years ago, his people- the North African Arabs/Berbers (we’ll leave them to sort out their identity amongst themselves), crossed over into Southern Europe as Colonists.
Today, when people speak of Andalucia, they speak of its “Golden Age”. I have yet to hear anyone, Western or Non-Western, speak of La Reconquista as anything but a terrible episode in Western History. I have yet to read one Arab historian/thinker/philosopher say that in their view, the Colonization of Southern Europe by the Arabs- or more broadly the Muslims- was a shameful and unacceptable act. Nor have I heard any of them say that Isabel and Ferdinand were “Right” to expel those Colonizers. (Or as you put it when referring to Palestine- you “couldn’t care less” what happens after).
Why is that?
Posted by Gabriel | March 16, 2012, 11:35 amGabriel/mo
Excuse me for butting in with a very brief comment. Colonization is never to be justified but unfortunately it is the best and only description of history. Human history is nothing much besides being a history of conquest. Lest we forget the “Arab world” is arguably the result of the most successful conquest and colonialism in history.
This does not make conquest “right” and I do hope that it becomes totally rejected in the modern world , a world that will be shaped by cosmopolitanism and NOT authenticity .
Posted by Ghassan Karam | March 16, 2012, 11:53 amMore blatherings from the creepy Parsim in Lebanon:
A delegation led by top Iranian presidential aide Ali Akbar Javanfekr has arrived in Lebanon on Friday, where it toured Lebanon’s southern border fence.
“No fence – be it concrete or iron – will save Israel,” Javanfekr, who serves as Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad media advisor, was quoted as saying by Hezbollah’s TV network Al-Manar.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4203838,00.html
Posted by Akbar Palace | March 16, 2012, 2:19 pmGabriel # 95,
As GK # 96 pointed out, human History is indeed written in the framework of territorial conquests. So be it. If you expect a person to say the conquest of North Africa and Southern Spain was a shamefull act…well this observation is valid only if this same person agrees that ALL conquests in man History are despicable, genocidal, bad etc etc…
But Ustez, here the issue is that we are talking about a current, physical present outright colonization. I believe that the big BIG difference with previous “conquests” is the amount of “conquered” people still claiming their rights, still looking forward to get their home back.
In Morocco (and Algeria too) some people (not at all a significant portion of the population) believe that, even today, their are still under the occupation of Arabs, and that they are the eternal victims of Arab Imperialists. An even smaller portion of the population not only rejects this Arab occupation but also Islam (as a mere foreign ideology, at odds with local, ancestral rites and beliefs).
But, these rejectionnists feelings are just too marginal to represent any challenge to the “Arab occupiers” or “Islam”. What is happening is that most people who are proud of their pre-Arab pre-Islamic heritage are asking for more inclusive societies and goverments, where, for instance, Berber language (actually it is Amazigh) would be considered as an official language. And as Moroccans, we are very happy and honored to combine these 2 cultures. People in Morocco defines themselves as Muslims first then most of them says they are Arabs and a lot of are proud to tell they are Berbers too.
I brief, let’s say that Muslims conquered the land, yes they were occupier, they introduced Arabic language and culture…but these people blent with the local societies, the Arabic language became the common language. The Arabic culture in contact with Amazigh culture allowed the emergence of a cultural synthesis called today Moroccan culture. And I believe it is beautiful, and this is the best thing our specie can offer: mix! Just listen to colloquial Moroccan!…ok ok some reader there may find it weird 🙂
To come back to the point, today’s Palestinians are convinced that their land has been stolen from them. It’s not a minority, it is a huge majority that is still up, resisting and advocating for their rights (mind you, leaving in a camp or in forced exile are militancy too).
And to underline GK’s point, yes, conquest is not to be deemed as “right” and yes, people living in the modern world reject it, and yes, Palestinians are showing the way in that matter…
*
I’ve just re-read everything, hope you will get my point despite the digressions…
Posted by 3issa | March 17, 2012, 7:29 amoh…just a question for you. Do you believe in cultural synthesis? And that a synthesis of 2 cultures (or more) can beget a more sophisticated and superior one?
Posted by 3issa | March 17, 2012, 7:31 amGabriel,
Ok,Never, so along as the Palestinians have a fight to fight and there are people willing to fight that fight.
Where people surrender such as the Americas or Australasia, the “never” is no longer meaningful. Where they dont, like South Africa, it ended with justice for the black population.
Im not sure using Andalucia is proper analogy. For one thing, the local population asked the Moors for help because of the suffering they were enduring under the German Visgoths and I dont believe the local population were kicked out en masse. However, if you think my use of the term never is too much, you should speak to some Spaniards who today still harbor a grudge! (Also you got to love the irony that the greatest hero in Spainish history. El Cid, carries a name of Arabic origin!).
Of course, historically we talk of the Romans, the Normans, the Saxons, the Greeks and so on and so on. But I think we should certainly not be comparing our modern era with the sensibilities of a millenium ago.
Posted by mo | March 17, 2012, 8:23 am3issa:
You did a lot of beating around the bush. Yes one “Colonization” is current and the other is quite old. Which is why I brought the old one in the appropriate context of an adjective that both you and Mo used. And that word is Never.
You said Israel would Never be accepted.
So throwing back the following question at you…
If you expect people to take Arabs seriously when they say the Conquest of Palestine was a shameful act.. then this observation is ONLY valid if the same people- (here I speak of the Arabs complaining about the colonization of Palestine)- if they agree that ALL conquests- including the ones the Arabs did were despicable, genocidal.
Notice that in your response, you never at any point said how you thought. In fact, you diverted the whole colonization discussion into cultural synthesis- which indeed is a beautiful thing (and I think a +ve for colonization). But with the way you phrased it, it seems you only had something good to say about the Arab/Berber/Muslim (whichever) colonization of Spain.
So I go back to my original question. Today, if I try to buy a book from the library written by a well respected (amongst the Arabs) Arab thinker/writer that offers an introspective view of the colonization of Southern Spain… what would this book be, and who would be its author?
I agree, this is a big difference- only in the sense that the bigger the number of people, the bigger the noise!
But let’s keep the discussion to the point that Mo was discussing- which is that of Justice.
I cannot imagine (and I have yet to read his response) Mo- would say the Justice is different in either case. Justice is not more valid when 1 million people demand it than when 1 person demands it.
The other difference between the Spain example and the one in Palestine is that I am suggesting that one could argue “Justice” was in fact served. Isabel and Ferdinand sent back all those Berbers/Arabs/Muslims and their supporters out of the Andalucia to North Africa.
Except, I don’t typically see North Africans concede as much.
So I ask you, do you think Justice was served in the “Reconquista”? Or is this example no longer so black and white?
PS- There is a lot of cultural synthesis going on in Israel/Palestine. Those Jews now make Hummus and Falafel!
Posted by Gabriel | March 17, 2012, 9:49 am101
Those people have taken the ownership of khummus & falafel…. Lebanese are taking care of those cheating Israelis. 😛
Posted by danny | March 17, 2012, 9:56 amMo:
Posted by Gabriel | March 17, 2012, 9:58 amWell their appellation as was want of the time, depended on who you were really. They were alternatively Baeticians, Hispanias, Celts.
But you are comparing apples and oranges, We are talking about a world still coming to grips with the fall of the Romans, a world really without nation states that was heavily militarized. If you were responsible for the defence of a land then you owned it by default If they had left the Visigoths would have come straight back and with a grudge and the people who asked for help would have been massacred. One could easily argue that leaving would have been the most unconsiounable act.
Are you really saying we cannot oppose the Israelis until we have atoned and accepted the wrongness of earlier Arab “conquests”? If we apply that rational then should we not start at the beginning? Should we not still be fighting the Canaanite fight against the invading Hebrew Tribe who were persecuted in Egypt rather than the inading Hebrew Tribe persecuted in Europe? If never was truly never we could still be asking for reparations for those walls in Jericho!
And yes, been there, they are spectacular.
Posted by mo | March 17, 2012, 12:08 pmShishkabab lovers, beware of the latest Zionist plot in Lebanon
وبعدما ألمح إلى وجود مصلحة إسرائيلية تاريخية بضرب قطاع السياحة في لبنان، قال عريس: «إذا ثبت أن هذه اللحوم الفاسدة كانت في إسرائيل، كما قيل أخيرا بعد اكتشاف علامات باللغة العبرية عليها، وبعد الهجوم على الصناعة السياحية في لبنان ومنها نشر اللوائح المغرضة على مواقع الانترنت، لا بد من الربط في هذه المسألة ووضعها ضمن سياق المؤامرات الإسرائيلية لضرب السياحة في لبنان».
Posted by Vulcan | March 17, 2012, 12:16 pmMo, where did I bring up atonement?
I asked 2 simple questions.
Question 1 What is your position regarding the Arab colonization of Southern Europe in the 8th century onwards.
So far, from you I got… well the locals asked for Moorish help against the Visigoths. And from 3Issa, I got… well cutural infusion and cocktails are good and serve humanity.
Hell- I’ll throw in another benefit.. where would the Science and the enlightenment be without the libraries of Toledo.
I didn’t hear yet- from either of you- a solid position saying. “No, we think it is wrong”. “Colonialism is always wrong”. “Expropriation of territory is always wrong”.
I didn’t ask for contrition, just your position as an independent observer commenting on a historical incident that took place 1600 years ago!
Question 2 What is your position regarding the Reconquista, and the “expulsion” of the Arab/Muslim peoples from Southern Europe.
If you are a supporter of the Reconquista (as I imagine you would be, based on your argument regarding Palestine), then I ask you why your position does not appear to be widely shared amongst the wider Arab world. (Hence my question regarding thinkers/philosopher/historians.. and their output regarding this period of history)
If I am mistaken, and you are not a supporter of the Reconquista (and the subsequent expulsion of Arabs/Muslims from Southern Europe), then I ask you the question… Why Not?
Where I am going with this ought to be quite clear. We have established quite clearly that you take a strong stance against Colonialism and land expropriation of territory when the perpetrators are Jews. You have also stated that you would feel the same way if it were Protestants or Bhuddists.
But we have not yet established what your personal position on the matter is if the perpetrators happened to be Arab/Muslim/(fill in whatever group is acceptable).
I think this specific example is quite fitting regarding the various aspects of the current Arab-Israeli conflict and its resolution. (hence my choice of using it as a background of the conversation, as opposed to, say, the Arab colonization of Persia).
Posted by Gabriel | March 17, 2012, 2:20 pmGabriel,
Ok colonialism is always wrong and expropriation of territory is always wrong and the people always have a right to fight to get that territory back as you believe the Reconquista did.
The reason I dont think this example is apt is because it dont think its a classic example of colonization or conquest nor was the true Reconquista aim of taking “their” land back and most importantly of all, the local population did not seem to mind the fact that the Arabs did not leave as they were protected for a few centuries before the Arabs were driven out (and of course the locals then suffered the joy of the inquisition).
But there are plenty of examples, such as the Arab push into sub-saharan Africa that were purely colonial conquest aimed projects that I am unequivacly opposed to and without hesitation state that they were unjustified and criminal.
Posted by mo | March 17, 2012, 3:18 pmMo :).
Before I respond to the finer point, I should say- finally you answered the specific questions. So great!
On the particular points you raised. I think (and we can agree to disagree here) that the example is quite apt.
Perhaps especially so because the time between the Conquest of Spain and the Expulsion of the Moors took around 700 years. In my personal view, the Reconquista was a terrible thing. If this were your Stolen Car example, I think Isabel and Ferdinand would have a terribly hard time making a case that their reclamation of land lost was truly a recuperation of this stolen car.
But I think/hope we can agree that Andalucia was in fact a stolen car.
I also reject the twist you raised on the fact that the Inquisition that befell the people somehow invalidate the reclamation of the territory.
It’s like saying that if the Palestinians were to be given back Haifa and Tel Aviv, and that somehow the system there turned out to be some megalomaniacal religious regime (likely not too far from the truth), then this invalidates the claim!
Let’s be serious. Modern day inquisitions are commonplace in the Arab and broader Muslim world! That doesn’t stop us from saying the Palestinians were wronged, even if, given their chance to govern, the best they could do is run a corrupt basket case of a country.
Posted by Gabriel | March 17, 2012, 7:32 pmI think we are as close as we are going to get. We can argue all night on the stolen-ness of Andalucia – If we stick with the car analogy, I cant equate it with Palestine if the owner of the car has asked you to drive, you havent kicked the owner out of the car and the owner hasnt asked you stop driving because he cant drive.
Since you accept that the Spanish were not truly recovering their land then the inquisition is not irrelevant in that it was the people whose property it really was who suffered most. To compare it to Palestine, its more akin to Al-Qaida invading Israel and then turning against the Palestinians for not following the Wahabi rules of religion.
But the all this debate is mostly irrelevant in regards to what your original point was. And as I said there are plenty of other examples we can agree on totally to be Arab conquests that were unjust and wrong and I accept that. In fact, there are more current examples in North Africa where indidgenous non-Arab populations conitnue to suffer discrimination and loss of sovreignty thanks to the way Europe partitioned the countries that I support against their Arab rulers.
Posted by mo | March 17, 2012, 9:09 pmMo:
You make this sound like such an implausible event!
And yet… In:
https://qifanabki.com/2012/02/24/selling-foreign-intervention-in-syria/#comment-32636
you wrote, and I quote,
So you seriously want me to believe that the same person who wants us to believe that Wahabis want tot take over Syria, and send Alawis to Heaven and Christians to Beirut….
thinks it is so very intractable and implausible that the same thing couldn’t happen in Palestine?
Really?
Suppose you concede that it was not really all that implausible.. what then? Does that change your position.
Posted by Gabriel | March 18, 2012, 12:49 amThe problem with this analogy Mo, is that it ignores the simple reality that after the initial expropriation of territory, much of the indigenous population of Spain actually became Muslim.
The car- rest assured- is still stolen. And that passenger that hasn’t asked you to stop driving is sort of like that Arab Israeli “Zionist” you were talking about earlier.
Except you appear to be more forgiving to the passenger in this case.
As per the previous post- the Inquisition is really quite irrelevant. Unless you concede that your views about Justice, and the Palestinians are predicated on the type of state they establish and their conduct in it.
Either that, or you are practicing a gross double standard.
Also, my acceptance of the fact that the Spanish were not “truly” recovering their land has less to do with whether or not they recovered their land, and more to do with the absurdity of expecting anyone to believe that after many hundreds of years, they can justifiably lay claim to the land- or argue in any sensible way that this stolen car ought to be returned. Grievance, in my view, does have an expiry date. But this is not a view that you share- or at least, you appear to share only selectively!
The Palestinian situation is of course a little different. It’s been 60 years since the establishment of Israel, and not, as in the Spanish example- 700 years.
But still it begs the question of your use of the word Never.
It’s a strong word.
And I’d be a little surprised if you yourself don’t have some reasonable cut-off point for which you say enough is enough for this conflict.
Posted by Gabriel | March 18, 2012, 2:25 amGabriel,
I didnt make any mention of plausibility – I was merely arguing as to how the inquisition was not irrelevant in the sense that it targetted the very people the Spanish were supposedly liberating. Its only implausible in that I dont see any wahabi group being able to do it, but it doesnt change my position no.
I dont get how the fact that they became Muslim has any bearing. Are you suggesting that by becoming Muslim they lost the right of ownership to the land?
Anyhow, I think we are going round in circles on this. Cut off point for me? For accepting Israel? Whatever the date that is engraved on my gravestone says if we are unfortunate enough to have to endure the existence of that state that long.
Posted by mo | March 18, 2012, 10:15 amMo,
No- that would be absurd.
Which is why I was a little surprised that you stated that you considered Arab Israelis who supported “Israel”, Zionists (and you couldn’t care less what happens to the Zionists). That was your position, which appears to me to be rather fluid, depending on who the perpetrators are.
In the Spanish example, the ones that became Muslims did not exactly support the Christian Kingdoms to the North of the country, and didn’t exactly stop the outflux of Iberian Christians to Portugal and the northern kingdoms when the Almohads were butchering them.
As I said previously, the example is actually quite good and quite applicable, issue by issue, to the Palestinian/Israeli case.
On the other note, about plausibility/implausibility:
1) Why then are you concerned about Syria and the possible ascent of a Wahabi state there? If it so unlikely? Surely, what is unlikely in Palestine is probably more unlikely in Syria.
2) If it doesn’t change your position, why then are you using the Inquisition as a point against the Reconquista? Do you not see the double standard there?
Out of curiosity what historical African or current examples specifically were you referring to, when you said you sided with the subjugated peoples over their “Arab” colonial rulers?
By current, are you thinking of places like Sudan?
And if so, I’m actually rather curious about this. Why are the Arab people so silent about the events there? Especially given that they have such strong opinions about the Palestinians/Israelis.
I’m not talking about someone like you, who I can understand why you would have a strong position on Israel (they are directly south of you,and you likely felt the brunt of their colonial adventures).
But someone like 3issa (here I mean the proverbial 3issa), who is Morrocan (that is- not Palestinian/Lebanese/Syrian, and nowhere near the border with the colonial state).
Posted by Gabriel | March 18, 2012, 11:54 amgaby,
Why aren’t you enjoying the summer like weather in the winter?
Now let’s see if you guys can guess who was the fool who uttered this gem :”… The closest thing to democracy in the Arab world is Syria.”
What da…
Posted by danny | March 18, 2012, 5:04 pmdanny,
Your answer is found in the first line of the following:
http://rationalrepublic.blogspot.com/2012/03/patriarch-al-rai-misspeaks-again.html
Posted by gkaram | March 18, 2012, 6:52 pmqn,
For the last two days I have been having a problem in posting on your blog. I do not know wheter it is on my end or whether you have made some changes. I keep getting the message to log in again over and over again.
Posted by gkaram | March 18, 2012, 6:55 pmDanny. It’s sad! Very very sad! I have a problem. Even when I sitting in a cafe, enjoying the weather, I have my beautiful android machine by my side!
lol
Posted by Gabriel | March 19, 2012, 9:57 amSo is Nasrallah still supporting Assad?
Posted by Akbar Palace | March 20, 2012, 10:27 amAkbar
Did i miss something? Why would he stop now? Are you still waiting for a regime change? I hope you are not holding your breath!!
Ghassan K.
I read your article however analyze the patriarch statement he did not say it’s a democracy he said it’s the closest THING to a democracy. name me one country in the Arab world closer than Syria to being a democracy?
I’ll save you some typing forget about Lebanon. System allocating position based on religious affiliation makes us ineligible to calling ourselves a democracy.
(be careful also to read the Egyptian constitution) before you think about Egypt there are reasons that allowed Mubarak to win 80 and 90 per cent of the votes. the same reasons that handed the Win to the Islamist last election and lead to the boycott of the real revolutionaries that overthrew that dictator.
So enlighten me please what country is CLOSER to being a democracy then Syria??????
Posted by elsheikh | March 20, 2012, 11:43 amDid i miss something?
elsheikh,
Maybe. Hamas (after 1 year of silence) decided to turn their back on the Syrian Baathist regime.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/middle-east/iran-cuts-hamas-funding-for-failing-to-show-support-for-assad-1.379845
Why would he stop now?
To show support for all the abused and murdered arabs he claims he cares for, like Hamas.
Are you still waiting for a regime change?
Yes, but I stopped holding my breath.
I hope you are not holding your breath!!
No, I would have suffocated.
Posted by Akbar Palace | March 20, 2012, 12:22 pmThis is intriguing
Can you expand and explain?
Are you saying the Islamists weren’t popular after all?
Posted by Gabriel | March 20, 2012, 12:40 pm@119
Are you serious when you say this:”name me one country in the Arab world closer than Syria to being a democracy?”
I know as an ardent and blind follower of HA you could not find a better system that a “democratic” Iran…and now you make such a statement.
Syria is NOT EVEN close to being a democratic anything! please kindly enlighten us on the freedom and democratic process of the current Syrian system.
I guess the democratic elections in Iraq, Tunis, Egypt do not count for anything. You are against MB. We understand your bias. However; you belong to the same hallucinating group as Cardinal Rai.
Posted by danny | March 20, 2012, 2:37 pmGabriel
what is popular? do they have supporters yes they do. Do they represent a majority? if you know anything about Egypt you know that it is debatable.
in fact what happened in Egypt is not a revolution, it’s the same thing that happened in Yemen. They took out Saleh but installed his Vice President the only candidate.with 99% of the vote. (that is Democracy Saudi style it seems)
In egypt it was always the army that ruled. Since Nasser to Sadat to Mubarak. The military council is now looking for a new different front to put forward who know who it will be.
There are many ways to win an election its not always stuffing the box or intimidation. The major demand of the Egyptian was to amend the election laws the laws that govern who gets to run and who and how you get to vote.
Do you remember the scorn at Mubarak’s speech when he promised new elections? That was not what the people wanted they wanted new election laws.
That is why the military council had to shoot at demonstrators in the square after the fall of Mubarak.
and i am still waiting for somebody to let me know about one country closer to democracy in the Arab world or the middle east.
Posted by elsheikh | March 20, 2012, 2:42 pmDanny,
I think what Sheikh meant was that since there is supposedly no democracy at all in the Middle East, then technically no other country could be any closer to a democracy that Syria.
But then, I am not sure if he also meant to say that Syria cannot be any closer to a democracy than any other.
Shucks. It’s all very confusing :).
For a good laugh, I always like to read a like Fisk.
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-is-homs-an-echo-of-what-happened-in-srebrenica-7542448.html
Posted by Gabriel | March 20, 2012, 2:44 pmAkbar
As for your remark about Hamas. how did you like the Islamic Jihad response to your latest adventure in Gaza?
Always one step behind Iran and Syria…..
Hamas??????
Posted by elsheikh | March 20, 2012, 2:45 pm#123:
You didn’t answer the question that you yourself posited. You said there is something innate in the constitution that allowed Mubarak to win the 80-90% popular votes.
You didn’t describe this.
I asked you to expand on this thought. What elements of the constitution brought about voting results that gave MB greater than 50% of the popular vote, and the creepy Noor party greater than 20% popular vote. Are the liberals- the revolutionaries as you call them- secular I assume from the video footage. The Koombaya crowd. They couldn’t get 15-20% of the vote.
The army is still in control.
What elements of the constitution produced those electoral results, please explain.
Posted by Gabriel | March 20, 2012, 2:48 pm… and Sheikh…
No.. I don’t know enough about Egypt, or probably anything… except that it is land of the Sphinx and Pyramids, and Tutenkhamun. So anything you say will be quite enlightening.
Posted by Gabriel | March 20, 2012, 2:50 pmDanny
please do not assume to tell me whom i follow. If i defend Sayyid Nasrallah does not mean i support or follow all of his ideology. I am an Atheist and proud of it. That is for one.
As for the other part of your post. i did not claim that Syria is a democracy i just said that Syria is Closer to democracy than any other country in the middle east or the arab world in general.
Now if you are happy with the kind of democracy they have in Tunis or Iraq or Egypt good for you however i would suggest that you do not take the word of Now Hariri or that tabloid Annahar maybe you should go and ask an Egyptian or Tunisian secularist or minority how they feel about that democracy.
Posted by elsheikh | March 20, 2012, 2:52 pmEl Sheikh- here is your answer; no Arab country is closer to Democracy. In my humble opinion they are all equally very far from being a Democracy, so that does not make Syria closer than any being democratic.
It makes more sense to reverse the competition and see which country is closest to being a Dictatorship and a brutal murderous regime led country. Syria is the closer among all Arab countries to being just that.
I hope I didn’t confuse you or everyone else.
Posted by Vulcan | March 20, 2012, 3:04 pmGab
going into specifics will take too long. However as i told you there are ways to influence an election.
the most important aspect is organization. If you require for example as certain amount of money to be deposited by candidates you limit the number of people who can run. sometimes you require a certain number of signatures to allow candidates to run. A lot of these requirements/ rules were used by Mubarak to disenfranchise Muslim Brotherhood candidates when he was in power.In fact these rules allowed minor party candidates to win in spite of the fact that the MB had probably more supporters.
This is like in Lebanon were the entire country one time voted on the Mouhafaza basis Except for the mountain region because Jumblat would have been decimated and there they voted as Kaka2. the district was tailored to fit him specifically.
3 elections ago Mubarak under pressure for the street (because of the Iraq and Afghan war the Gaza and west bank blockade etc..) Mubarak relaxed the elections rules and regulation and the MB actually won a good number of seats. in the Election that followed (the last of Mubarak Rule) he resorted to changing the election laws and that is why the MB in spite of being maybe the second largest group did not get any seats in parliament.
The moderates and Secularist the ones that actually took to the streets from the beginning boycotted the elections because the election laws were not changed.
Posted by elsheikh | March 20, 2012, 3:15 pmAkbar
As for your remark about Hamas. how did you like the Islamic Jihad response to your latest adventure in Gaza?
elsheikh,
I’m not sure who Islamic Jihad is. Are they Sunni or Shia? Are they paid by the mullahs in Iran or the Saudis? Do they wear the green or white head bands? Do they smoke menthol or regular?
Since we’re on the subject of ME democracies, guess which ME country has the strongest democracy.
Posted by Akbar Palace | March 20, 2012, 3:16 pmVulcan
That is a good post may i ask from which vantage point did you make your observation?
How many actual Arab countries did you visit ? Live in? or experience any political debate in?
I am not being sarcastic at all. You are stating opinion and i would like to know on which basis before i respond to you.
Posted by elsheikh | March 20, 2012, 3:19 pmAkbar
Spare me the sarcasm. You want to make the point that Israel is the democracy. Please go ahead i’ll debate you till kingdom comes. and i’ll enjoy it. A state built on discrimination and military occupation has no place in a conversation about democracy.
As for the Islamic Jihad you know very well that Palestine has not Shia population. they are Sunni and Christian and Jews as for where they get there funding Frankly it’s the least of my worries.
Just a few years ago you did not know about Hamas it was all PLO all the time.
History repeats itself it seems
Posted by elsheikh | March 20, 2012, 3:25 pmKingdom Came & Went NewZ
A state built on discrimination and military occupation has no place in a conversation about democracy.
elsheikh,
Thank you. The Israelis have much to learn from arab democracies.;)
I see you’ve asked Vulcan for his “arab credentials”. Tell us about yours.
Did you ever visit Israel? What discrimination did you experience while you were in Israel?
Posted by Akbar Palace | March 20, 2012, 4:11 pmAkbar
I saw you coming from a mile away. You are the typical Zionist propagandist and you will never change. The fact that you shout loudly that you are a democracy does not make you one i am afraid.
I do have a lot of Arab credentials i lived and worked in Syria, Egypt, the Gulf (Saudi Arabia, Emirates and Bahrain) . would you like the years? I grew up in Lebanon lived through the Israelie invasion in 82 and the civil war .
As for Palestine. I still hold the deeds to the lands and homes you stole from my family in Haifa. Are you willing to let me back and give me what is rightfully mine?
If you were born in what you call Israel were your parents??
Posted by elsheikh | March 20, 2012, 4:27 pmElsheikh-
To be brief, i am Lebanese. I have visited and lived for short periods in many of the lovely region’s countries from Afghanistan to Djibouti including Iraq (During their first so called elections in 2005).
Posted by Vulcan | March 20, 2012, 4:28 pmelsheikh,
I see. So you never set foot in Israel, yet you know everything about it.
Meanwhile, you question Vulcan’s knowledge of arabia as if he was born yesterday.
You aren’t worth the time. Good luck with your deed!
Today’s Question
How safe would Omar Sharif Jr. be if he lived in an Arab country vs. “The Apartheid State”?
http://www.timesofisrael.com/omar-sharif-jr-jewish-and-gay/
Posted by Akbar Palace | March 20, 2012, 4:32 pmElsheikh-
Hope you get to go back in peace, Arabs made an unforgivable mistake in 1948 declaring war on Israel and refusing the UN partition to allow the Jewish people to have their own nation. They should by now realize that Israel is here to stay and it is thru peace overtures and negotiations only, that this horrible conflict will come to end. Not by blowing up innocent men women and children in buses, restaurants and airplanes.
Posted by Vulcan | March 20, 2012, 4:50 pmAkbar
I see you sidestep the issue when you loose an argument, I can trace my lineage to Palestine for generations can you do the same?????
have you been to Syria? that does not seem to restrain you from commenting on Syria.
Typical Racial superiority complex from a Zionist propagandist.
I’ll give you a promise, if i do not restore my deeds (yes in plural) my son will keep on asking and his son will do the same.
Sleep well
Posted by elsheikh | March 20, 2012, 4:54 pmVulcan
It is easy to talk about peace. then reject any peace proposed,
If you and your pal Akbar have a plan for peace can you let us know?
Israelies have a right to their own home land fine, let them take part of Great Britain that made the promise. I did not promise them anything.
You cannot come and talk to me about peace when the Palestinians are stillin refugee camps for aver half a century.
Peace will only come when justice is applied
Posted by elsheikh | March 20, 2012, 4:59 pmelsheikh,
We Jews are waiting for justice also:
1) All the property of the 800,000 Jews that were kicked out of Arab countries needs to be returned.
2) All the property of the 3 million Jews of Poland that were killed needs to be returned (this is about 15% of all Poland’s real estate)
3) We demand that the 6 million Jews killed in WWII brought back to life
When the 3 conditions above are met, there will be peace, because peace can only come when justice is applied… 🙂
Posted by AIG | March 20, 2012, 6:00 pmAIG
and there you have it. As if poeple needed more proof that you are nothing but a war mongering hallucinating and misinformed Zionist .
You are fighting a loosing battle. yet you do not know it,
As the angry Arab puts it.” All you have done to our people is registered in notebooks”
I pity you
laugh now . i am laughing at you not with you
.
Posted by elsheikh | March 20, 2012, 6:06 pmEl-Sheikh, when the Palestinians and their Arab and now Iranian puppeteers decide they want true peace with the Israelis there will be peace, so long as they keep talking from both sides of their mouth, peace negotiations backed by terror campaigns there won’t be peace and you or your Grandsons won’t ever go back. don’t forget the Israelis are not outsiders to the area and they very well understand the Arabs. Since you grew up in Lebanon you should know very well who is at fault for the Palestinians remaining in the concentration camps they are imprisoned in by their so called Lebanese brothers. you should also know very well who killed more Palestinians in Lebanon, was it Israel or the Arab brothers? Between Bashir’s LF and Berri’s Amal alone thousands of Palestinians were massacred. How come Justice is irrelevant when it comes to Syrians, Lebanese or Kuwaitis Killing you?
Peace will only come when there is a true will for peace and when the most rotten and corrupt “Umah” on earth the Arabs that is, stop blaiming everyone else but themselves.
Posted by Vulcan | March 20, 2012, 6:07 pmVulcan
you are not a Lebanese.Your last post makes you a traitor to your country and it’s citizens.
In fact why don’t you go and enjoy the lovely democracy you believe exists in your Israel. Good riddance to you and all your likes.
Remember one thing لكل خاءن حبيب..
Posted by elsheikh | March 20, 2012, 6:14 pmOf course when backed into a corner the usual “Traitor” accusation cometh
Posted by Vulcan | March 20, 2012, 6:21 pmيا شباب…. عيب الشوم…
Posted by Gabriel | March 20, 2012, 7:05 pmLol,
Vulcan you traitor…….
reminds me of medieval practices when women were branded witches,burnt at the stake for showing instinctual tendencies.
Posted by Maverick | March 20, 2012, 7:09 pmV
you have to be a little fair even with your reading of the events of 48. perhaps the issue was that the arab world was not all for thre idea of self determination,.buth ow is this different from modern day conflicts in kosovo, or chechnya, or eastern turkey, or tamil nadu
Posted by Gabriel | March 20, 2012, 7:11 pmA traitor among morons , to me is deemed a hero.
Posted by Maverick | March 20, 2012, 7:13 pmWell what do you somebody who is defending the enemy of his country. Last I checked Israel is the enemy of Lebanon. Until that changrsx yes Vulcan and his likes are traitors and should be treated like that.
Now being a moron is not an excuse. All those Lebanese who stood there Nd clapped while the murders in the Zionist entity rained fire on our O
Poeple deserve one thing : a rope around there neck . I am willing to talk to my enemy but I do not talk to traitors I string them up. Call me old fashioned but there you have it.
Posted by Elsheikh | March 20, 2012, 7:24 pmWho are you to judge?
Last time I checked, My Lebanese brothers, have caused more harm to my family then any Israeli. My distant family cousins in Syria have also been harmed by the regime that is the closest thing to a Democracy in the ME more than any Israeli.
Do you not see the Hypocrisy ?
This is the problem, when one defends the truth, he is branded all sorts of things from traitor to heretic, and so on….same tireless record on and on…
Your not only old fashioned but your a fascist creep who has been thumped with the brainwashing club.
Posted by Maverick | March 20, 2012, 7:33 pmAnd I have to take your word for it? Just like that you have been harmed? Can you explain how? You talk in generalities is it because details show the weakness of your argument? I don’t know who or what you are? Most sides in Lebanon suffered at one point or the other Vulcan is probably one of those followers of tve mass murderer geagea. He sure talks like one. How about you? Enlighten mfr please so I can understand your point of view.
Posted by Elsheikh | March 20, 2012, 7:47 pmElsheikh- i have intimately suffered from almost all wars in Lebanon as far as i remember from 73 to 78 to 82 to 2006 and lost many friends, relatives and fortunes, how did you conclude that i stood and cheered for war? How am i a traitor if i was pointing out to you as a Lebanese how the Palestinians suffered considerably at the hands of their fellow Arabs? how does that make me pro Israeli? i am not pro anyone but peace and humanity, being an Arab i can comment on how the Arabs are more so than how the Israelis are, with confidence i can say we have long lost our moral compass in this conflict, this isn’t about justice, it isn’t about liberty or ending occupation, we are occupied by far more dangerous evils. It’s all about hiding our corruption, intolerance, dictatorships, ignorance and a thousand years of decline. All safely tucked behind our glorious quest for justice, along the way we have committed so much uglier injustices against our own and against those who we claim to be our brothers or enemies.
“Treachery is noble when aimed at tyranny”
Posted by Vulcan | March 20, 2012, 7:55 pmMAverick
Ok so I am a fascist ? Why because I a
Tough on traitors?
Truth what is tfe truth? What is it I said that is wrong?
Is Lebanon or not a country at war with Israel ? Your opinion does not matter as long as the state of war exists you have to abide by it.
If you can democratically change that good for you go ahead. If you cannot then my opinion stands.
George Busch said you are either with us or against us? There’s no middle ground, if you can not change the facts on the ground then touch go join moron number 1 in what you consider a democracy. Do not let the door hit you on the way out.
Who in Lebanon hurt your family ? Do you have a grievance let me know Nd if you have any right I’ll be the first to champion. Your cause how about that?
I gave stated my grievances in post above do you think I have. Right to ask for redress?
Posted by Elsheikh | March 20, 2012, 8:01 pmsheikh…
are you giving people like maverick the opportunity to democratically change the system before or after you wrap the noose around their necks!!!
Posted by Gabriel | March 20, 2012, 8:07 pmNo im lying,
The Syrian regime shoot flowers out of their rifles, kidnap people in broad daylight and throw them into penthouses and bachelor pads. Those missing do not dare to speak out for they will lose their privileges. During elections, Syrians pride themselves on the choice of candidates. So many to chose from, which one represents me the best? hmmm…and they prize themselves on the worlds freest media, judiciary and parliament. They’re even efficient in ridding the glorious republic of any terrorist scum that lurk in the shadows especially the 11 year olds, you dont want them growing up to be baddies. So bloody efficient they’ve kept the sahyoonis at bay. Those joos have not made a sound on the southern border since 1973.
Amazing, really!! did you know in every household,on the walls, there are no portraits of anyone but the Assad clan. No wonder he receives 99% of the votes.
I just cannot wait to go back to the greatest Democracy in the world! i cant wait until I arrive at the airport and get my passport stamped by the officials who painstakingly lick 7 postage stamps to place on my passport with so much pleasure on their faces.
Posted by Maverick | March 20, 2012, 8:07 pmDid Elshiekh just quote Dubya to justify his position?
thats not fair! two can play this game!
“freedom is the almighty God’s gift to each man and woman in this world…….I will make this part of my foreign Policy”
Lool.
Posted by Maverick | March 20, 2012, 8:13 pmVulcan ok so let’s say I believe you and you are serious about peace. What do you propose to do?
I am not defending Arabs at all in fact I fit belleive in Arabism at all. I never claimed that I am for the Syrian regime or others. What I am saying is that you we today are facing a great challenge. Your quest for peace cannot cloud your judgement you csnnot blame me for wanting my rights S d being willing to fight and struggle for them.
As a Lebanese your country has been invaded bombed rapped and pillaged for almost 70 years now. How do you propose to solve that? Sit on your but and sing peace peace peace???
When I call somebody a traitor I do not mean you are on the payroll and or working for the enemy. By doing nothing you undermine me and my struggle our unity as a nation is and should always be our biggest strengthen. Shnouda tbe pope (god rest his soul) refused to accompany Sadat to the occupied territories his order to excommuniate any copy who even visited israel stands to his day. He once said if killing the Copts will save Egypt then let the copts die and let Egypt live . tomorrow if you believe I. The after life when stand in front of the pearly gates and if you are asked: you’velived through a time when an entire nation was evicted from its homes tortured and exterminated In one of the biggest land grabs inoffensive history what did you? What will uou respond? (I watched and felt sorry?) wether you Re. Christian a Muslim or Jew that response will be inadequate
Posted by Elsheikh | March 20, 2012, 8:18 pmGaby.
The notion of supporting foreign soldiers, even the dear cousins, killing one’s fellow citizens is grounds fer a lynchin in most civilized nations…well, a lynching at the hands of the State that is.
Elsheihk’s sentiments are more like the American perspective on traitorous behavior than are those of Vulcan, Maverick and Elias Murr et al.
Posted by lally | March 20, 2012, 8:22 pmUmmm, enough with this talk of lynching please.
Unseemly.
Posted by Qifa Nabki | March 20, 2012, 8:23 pmGabriel, maybe I am too harsh but I don’t believe the Arabs are any closer now to accepting self determination for other minorities, and it isn’t any different than nowadays places you mentioned.
loll at #155, I think ElSeikh is just too young, nothing wrong with that either.
El Sheikh, am no follower of Ga3Ga3 (as your Angry Arab likes to pronounce it) In fact I was once a Gitan smoking, Kaffieyh dawning, Marcel Khalifeh blasting, Thawrajeh fool uhum I mean fella! 🙂
Anyways thanks for the chatter, am off to watching Seinfeld reruns
Posted by Vulcan | March 20, 2012, 8:32 pmLally.. I’m never sure I fully understand your point regarding the us. so do you support the traitor argument, or not?
do you make reference to the usa to suggest if it is kosher for them then it should be kosher for all? our are you simply using this as another opportunity to take a jab at the moral depravity of your country?
Posted by Gabriel | March 20, 2012, 9:14 pmThe pearly gates ?? lol
Posted by Vulcan | March 20, 2012, 9:35 pmThe world needs more “traitors” like Vulcan. Enjoy your Seinfeld reruns….Seinfeld was never my cup of chai…
QN – your lucky. You have really good group of posters, sans the usual jihadist.
Posted by Akbar Palace | March 20, 2012, 10:16 pm#130:
Sheikh, can you give references to show where those “secularist” parties boycotted elections because of the electoral law?
I remember all sorts of parties threatening to boycott. Mostly because they suggested the military would just put their man back into power. Yet, the MB, which was one such party still managed to win the elections!
Then there is this article on Egyptian liberal party boycotting elections.. well after the 3rd round that is, and after alleging voter fraud by the Islamists (where was the Army?)…
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jan/10/egypt-liberal-party-boycott-elections
Turns out this party is run by a multi-billionaire. I suppose there is little reason to believe he couldn’t pay the fees.
BTW… what’s with those charges against him anyways. Where are his balls? Where are the balls of all those “Secularists” in Egypt? The greater Arab world?
Posted by Gabriel | March 20, 2012, 10:33 pmI hope we didn’t chase Parviziyi away…
This is from the biased BBC…
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-17450284
Apparently, even Russia thinks Syria has made “Mistakes”.
Posted by Gabriel | March 20, 2012, 10:45 pmQN . “A lynchin” is common vernacular reflecting an American tradition of frontier justice that shamefully, we don’t find nearly unseemly enough.
“The world needs more “traitors” like Vulcan.”
A Palace, that’s exactly what some Iraelis thought about their sweetalking Lebanese friendlies. Some knowledgeable Israelis were wary but were ignored. But hell, even the Persian Peril, Ahmed Chalabi, was considered a security asset by Israeli intelligence for several years in the early 90’s (info on Ron Arad was his lure). They learned to despise him. Caveat emptor.
gaby….Canadians basically share the same widely spread perspective about what constitutes traitorous behavior when it comes to support for the enemy. Outraged contempt for the betrayals and the betrayers is darn near ubiquitous the world over. Can’t claim Made in the USA for the sentiments.
Posted by lally | March 21, 2012, 12:54 amLally,
I had the pleasure of meeting Ahmad Chalabi back one mid-nineties. This is when he was the darling of the conservatives. I wouldn’t compare any of the participants here with Ahmad Chalabi.
Posted by Akbar Palace | March 21, 2012, 4:41 amGood news. They found the Toulouse terrorhoid.
Posted by Akbar Palace | March 21, 2012, 5:10 amLally,
Cute, but you didn’t answer my question. Surely you have a personal opinion on the matter!
What is your view on all this talk about “treacherous” behavior, and subsequent “lynchings” and “nooses around the neck”.
Be explicit and stop beating around the bush as to what Canadians think and Americans think and French people think. What do YOU think?
Posted by Gabriel | March 21, 2012, 5:48 amThe $64,000 Question
Why is it the “mujaheedeen” and/or al-Queda never avenge arab children killed by arab despots?
Gueant said the 24-year-old suspect had spoken to officers through the door of his apartment, and declared himself to be a “mujaheedeen” or Islamic warrior fighting to avenge Palestinian children killed in the conflict with Israel.
Posted by Akbar Palace | March 21, 2012, 7:04 am@128.
“As for the other part of your post. i did not claim that Syria is a democracy i just said that Syria is Closer to democracy than any other country in the middle east or the arab world in general.”
We are still waiting to hear on how you reached to that conclusion? …Unless you had a tete a tete with RAI over green Chai & HK’s stash?
CLOSER? to democracy? Do enlighten us whether a one party system whereas the secret service brutally controls every aspect of daily life…and an army that bombs its citizens to kingdom come…Do tell el Sheik how is that closer to democracy than Tunis? I really am ready to learn.
Posted by danny | March 21, 2012, 9:15 amWould Lally name Zoabi or any other Arab Israeli a “traitor” for visiting or helping Israel’s enemies such as Hamas or Fatah before Oslo? Was Azmi Bishara considered a traitor for visiting Asad?
Why am I not surprised? It is the usual double standard routine.
Posted by AIG | March 21, 2012, 10:55 amGaby…..? Thought it was “understood” that I certainly would agree that collaborators that conspire with enemy forces to kill their fellow citizens are traitors. This is not a controversial position in most of the known universe.
A Palace. A. Chalabi is in a class all by himself; surely one of history’s greatest con men. Given your earlier meeting with him, you may find this translated-from-Hebrew article fascinating as it fills in some holes in the Chalabi legend:
http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2007/05/chalabi_and_the.html
AIG. Why are you equating Arab-Israelis paying visits to Israeli Jews plotting to kill fellow Israelis? Are they roughly equivalent in your mind? Here’s a more appropriate example of an Israeli traitor; although, I must say that his
version of doing “hard time” is surely unique in the annals of those who have murdered heads of states:
http://www.haaretz.com/news/rabin-killer-to-circumcise-son-in-jail-on-anniversary-of-assassination-1.232298
Posted by lally | March 21, 2012, 12:17 pmLally,
Yup. Chalabi IS in a class by himself. Thanks for the article; wikipedia is good enough for me.
Anyway, the US survived, and Iraq and the world has one less despot to worry about.
Posted by Akbar Palace | March 21, 2012, 12:33 pm#174.
Well, it had to be explicitly stated.
I think you ought really to re-read #173. I suppose with your position, Azmi Beshara should be led to the Guillotine for treachery.
But also probably a lot of Left-leaning Jews, who call for peace, and mirror Vulcan’s or Maverick’s sentiments.
I think you got your links all mixed up. That Israeli traitor you linked to, by your definition, is quite the Israeli Hero.
LoL.
Posted by Gabriel | March 21, 2012, 1:23 pmGabriel,
I know a lot of likudniks that “mirror Vulcan’s or Maverick’s sentiments”.
It’s just my opinion, but the arab rejectionist camp is losing support and the gap is widening to a point where they aren’t being considered as much as they used to. And that includes the Israeli “traitors” like Norman F. and Noam C.
I think a lot of the reasons behind this are the implosion of Syria, the assassination of OBL, and the arab awakening.
Even today I read a statement from the PA (Fayyad) where he asks these jihadists to stop using the Palestinian cause to commit their attrocities…
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4205954,00.html
Posted by Akbar Palace | March 21, 2012, 1:50 pmA newly released paper about the Syrian quagmire .It is issued by the Saban Center of the Brookings.
Click to access 0315_syria_saban.pdf
Posted by gkaram | March 21, 2012, 4:21 pmLally,
You are completely incoherent and inconsistent. If an Arab Israeli is not a traitor for talking with with Israel’s enemies, why is a Lebanese talking to Israelis a traitor?
And Rabin’s murderer is in jail under the regular Israeli provisions. You did not complain when Kuntar was treated similarly, did you?
Posted by AIG | March 21, 2012, 5:11 pmAP,
I don’t think we can be accurate in assessing the waning support for the ” Rejectionist” camp. How can one tell, for all we know, it could be that there are more “rejectionists” post-Arab spring.
And that’s fine, pretty normal actually given the past 65 odd years of the Arab-Israeli conflict.
My issue was not the rejectionists like El Shiekh ideological beliefs, but in the way they brand others almost automatically ” traitors” and things like ” they should be hung” without seeing their hypocritical stances vis-a-vis the massacres in Syria and elsewhere.
If Israel is an enemy of the state for killing, torturing, incarcerating Palestinians/Lebanese, then why does the Syrian regime not fit that label or fall under the same category?
So, no im not of the opinion that there is less support of the rejectionist camp, i think foreign policy has been put on hold to concentrate on the disastrous domestic issues of the Arab states.
Posted by Maverick | March 21, 2012, 5:39 pmA Palace.
Finkelstein and Chomsky are like you, Americans. Technically, they can’t be Israeli traitors.
AIG. I’m not the one who declares that “talking to the enemy” constitutes traitorous behavior. You are. Under your conditions, the same labels should also apply to those Israeli Jews who have talked to Hamas, Hezbollah and to the Syrians during talks about treaties. That’s consistent.
Do jailed Arab killers also get to consummate their arranged marriages and go on furloughs? That would be awfully swell for them to get the same benefits as the Jewish murderers do.
Posted by lally | March 21, 2012, 6:12 pmdon’t think we can be accurate in assessing the waning support for the ” Rejectionist” camp.
Maverick,
You may be right, I was just expressing my opinion. From my vantage point, the rejectionist camp is constipated, for a number of reasons.
Finkelstein and Chomsky are like you, Americans. Technically, they can’t be Israeli traitors.
True. And for every Finkelstein and Chomsky, there are a handful of like-minded Israelis. I hope this is no surprise to you. Israel, being an Aparheid State™, has pretty liberal laws regarding “treason”.
Personally, I like Israeli liberalism and freedom of speech. I think it makes Israel stronger, though I disagree with many of these so-called “traitors”, who, of course, are free to say whatever they want.
Posted by Akbar Palace | March 21, 2012, 6:37 pmLally, the Lebanese child killer Samir Kuntar was fed like the pig he is, was allowed to get an education and get married in Israeli prisons.
On treason, I believe if the Mahatma Gandhi, Jesus, Moses or Mohammad were alive today and tried to present an opinion against violence or for peace negotiations and concessions, they would have been branded “traitors” by the so many crazed extremist “patriots” in the Arab rejectionist camp. We don’t have Jewish, Muslim or Christian MPs or Ministers who can visit Israel for talks, come back and remain in their position or alive.
Posted by Vulcan | March 21, 2012, 9:20 pmGaby….Rabin’s stony killer has always had a fan base believing that he is a holy warrior for a cause that supersedes the authority vested in the representative leadership of the State of Israel.
Yigal Amir is their Hero who saved Israel from the P word.
Posted by lally | March 22, 2012, 1:24 amWhere’s Sammy’s wife? Was she left behind? What’s her name?
Thanks to the recounting by the Israeli shrink IDF interrogator who knew Sammy well, I too have some skepticism about the veracity of the narrative chronicling his youthful depravities. Heretical anathema to you, I’m sure. What did he know, right?
So Vulcan the peacenik(?), what “We” doesn’t have “Jewish, Muslim or Christian MPs or Ministers who can visit Israel for talks….”?
If you’re sorely deprived of that pleasure, just become an American. Our abundance overfloweth.
Posted by lally | March 22, 2012, 1:31 amA Palace.
“Personally, I like Israeli liberalism and freedom of speech”
Me too. The Israeli leftist group blog 972+ is the most dynamic resource of voices to emerge in the recent past. They’re influential voices challenging their government and increasingly, the American Diaspora, “Liberal Zionists” included.
http://972mag.com/
Posted by lally | March 22, 2012, 1:49 amLally,
A few points. First on Canada. Canada, unlike the USA does not have three death legally
Posted by Gabriel | March 22, 2012, 6:24 am(damn touch screen)
Canada does not have the death penalty. And while it is a liberal place, it doesn’t liberally take on enemies of the state. So the type of lynching you refer to in civilised nations… doesn’t happen so easily here.
Certainly not, at the very least to people like Vulcan or maverick.
In the Arab world, this lynching is hardly ever proverbial. So to weigh in on the discussion in the manner that you did was hardly appropriate for the discussion that was going on.
Sympathizing with the Palestinians is one thing, but that is no reason to lose ones moral compass altogether.
Posted by Gabriel | March 22, 2012, 6:36 amSympathizing with the Palestinians is one thing, but that is no reason to lose ones moral compass altogether.
Gabriel,
So let’s see which arab countries will denounce Mohamed Merah.
Palestine was the first…
Posted by Akbar Palace | March 22, 2012, 8:10 amAP,
Why should they denounce? A deranged man kills people in France. What’s that have anything to do with official Arab business?
Fayad made the statement to refute any links to any crazed person and leeting people know that they don’t support terror.
Posted by danny | March 22, 2012, 9:07 amdanny,
I was thinking they may denounce (wishful thinking) this person for the same reasons the international cimmunity did after 9-11: to show support for the host country and to distance itself from the attacker(s) actions.
I applaud Fayyad’s statement.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_attacks#Immediate_response
Posted by Akbar Palace | March 22, 2012, 10:46 amgaby. Where did I mention the Palestinian cause? Your overreach is causing you to topple right off your high hobby horse.
Posted by lally | March 22, 2012, 11:04 amLally… really. One minute its the dreaded “p” word.
and why did you weigh in on a discussion about the Arabs and the Israelis and the list of Palestine, if you weren’t in fact making reference to the Palestinian cause.
there is no high horse, just a little common sense. Really, its not much to ask of people.
Posted by Gabriel | March 22, 2012, 12:34 pmAP,
This is not comparable to 911. It is one deranged man going on a murderous spree. It just happened that he targeted people of Jewish faith alongside blacks…
Posted by danny | March 22, 2012, 1:11 pmThis is not comparable to 911.
danny,
OK, you’re right. I was wrong.
Posted by Akbar Palace | March 22, 2012, 1:38 pmLook, I am a fan of Lionel Messi, and I do believe he is a freek of nature but this piece of news might just exaggerate his prowess just a little. Good ‘ol Syrian media;
http://au.news.yahoo.com/odd/a/-/odd/13241469/messis-footwork-part-of-anti-syria-conspiracy-tv/
Posted by Maverick | March 22, 2012, 4:36 pmlol, Gaby.
The “P” word I was talking about was PEACE.
My fault for being unclear.
What “list of Palestine” are you talking about? I have no idea…..
Posted by lally | March 22, 2012, 6:21 pmLally, forgive my phone. It’s a touch screen, and has a great feature called Swype that works most of the time, but then, the auto-correct does not always cooperate.
“List” should have been “Issue”.
Now to address your non-point. Perhaps you should take it as a great complement that I thought you intended the word “Palestine” with the “P”. Given that the chap was quite the nutjob, “P” for “Palestine” would have been a far wittier quip.
And do you blame me for crediting you for witty quips?
Now to the broader point. You don’t make it too much of a habit to comment in these forums. You appear once in a while to drop in a couple of remarks, and then disappear, perhaps reading on, or perhaps ignoring the frivolous discussions that typically go on.
So let’s take this back to the context of the discussion. The “Peacenik”, Vulcan, simply stated that his view is that the Arabs, forever uninterested in the question of minority rights- and forever less interested in granting them any sort of self-determination- were wrong to oppose the UN partition plan.
And for that he is supposedly a “Traitor” to be threatened with the Noose.
Was what he said really that offensive? That treacherous?
Noam Chomsky- the Non-Israeli Traitor since he’s american- has said much to be critical of American foreign policy. For example,
http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/2011/oct/13/noam-chomsky-extradition
Is he an American traitor? Should we string a noose around his neck? Usher in a new age of McCarthyism?
Is he more or less of a traitor, in your definition, than someone like Vulcan?
Maybe your “P” was a nothing more than a reference to Peace, but the context under which you entered the discussion was All-Palestinian, or All-Arab. An impassioned defense to El-Sheikh’s desire to string a noose around the neck of Vulcan.
Or maybe you weren’t here to defend Sheikh’s position after all, even though you admit to be a supporter of Lynch Mobs against Terrorists. In which case really you re-appeared after a long lull to make no point at all.
In which case, forgive me for presumptuousness.
Posted by Gabriel | March 22, 2012, 8:44 pmGaby, why do you find the conversation here “frivolous”?
You are forgiven for your part in it.
Posted by lally | March 23, 2012, 12:04 amLally,
Any conversation whose entire goal is simply to exchange zingers, and for which there really is no intent to discuss issues, hear the other side, etc… is, in my view, frivolous.
Posted by Gabriel | March 23, 2012, 9:13 am