Here are some quick thoughts on Hizbullah secretary-general Sayyid Hasan Nasrallah’s speech this evening, which I live-blogged here (see here for another English translation).
Firstly, I found Nasrallah’s discussion of the terms of the Syrian-Saudi initiative to be quite interesting. If Saad al-Hariri really did agree to the opposition’s demands that they (a) withdraw the Lebanese judges; (b) stop funding; and (c) abrogate the cooperation agreement with the STL, then this is noteworthy. What were, I wonder, al-Hariri and the Saudis’ demands? It seems unlikely to me that al-Hariri and his allies would have agreed to these three demands, which amount to essentially torpedoing public trust in the STL, even if it would not have brought the actual Tribunal to a close (as Nasrallah pointed out).
Secondly, the fact that Nasrallah is able to make so much hay out of the false witness issue is entirely the fault of Hariri himself and his political advisors. As I’ve argued in the past, Hariri’s people have failed miserably in shaping the debate on the false witnesses, while the opposition has basically taken the issue and run with it. Even as we speak, the al-Jadid recording is changing minds in Lebanon, even though it more or less confirms what March 14 politicians have consistently (but poorly) articulated, namely that Siddiq was not fed information by Hariri’s people.
Thirdly, Nasrallah did an excellent job of framing the resignation of the opposition in terms of their dissatisfaction with the Hariri government on a number of fronts (corruption, lack of transparency, incompetence, false witnesses, vulnerability to foreign pressure, etc.) rather than just its commitment to the STL. Earlier in the day, Michel Aoun had similarly made a persuasive and typically belligerent case against Hariri’s government, articulating the reasons that the opposition had decided to abandon the national unity path. The question is: does Nasrallah know something that the rest of us don’t, with respect to Nabih Berri’s nomination decision? All of this will become clearer in the next couple of days.
Finally, allow me to reiterate a basic point that I’ve made several times before: can anyone doubt that the opposition has the big guns (rhetorically speaking) in Lebanon? Here we have Hasan Nasrallah, the leader of a conservative religious-political party and a militia stronger than the Lebanese army that is about to be accused by the United Nations of masterminding the assassination of a Sunni prime minister, and he sounds like the most reasonable, rational, straightforward politician in Lebanon. Note that I am not agreeing with the content of what he said (which was, let’s face it, just another shade of demagoguery like everyone else’s talking points), but simply pointing out the obvious: Hizbullah would be in a vastly different position in Lebanon today were it not for the leadership of Hasan Nasrallah. No one else would be capable of reconciling the manifold contradictions in Hizbullah’s projected identity and framing their program in as capacious and catholic a manner as Nasrallah. To understate his role is to misunderstand the rise of Hizbullah completely, in my opinion.
The floor is open.
UPDATE: Trella.org has the transcript of the second Al-Jadid recording. And here’s the actual recording on YouTube.
Qifa Nabki 
Nasrallah is the best arab leader today. I’d even go as far as the one of the best politician in the world.
Posted by Tunisian | January 16, 2011, 5:00 pmYou are absolutely right Elias.
I can tell what tone we will hear from Nasrallah by looking at the background he chooses for his televised appearance. When you see the professionally designed newscast blue graphic background, expect a business-like tone … like today.
Other times, you have the religious or revolutionary symbols.
Posted by Alex | January 16, 2011, 5:02 pmI feel like his last opening to Hariri is important. Maybe it’s just covering himself in case a new PM doesn’t work out, but I get the feeling that it’s actually a sign that he feels like Hariri will probably end up being the “new” PM and a way of polishing what will probably be an almost identical government as one that’s somehow new and improved.
Posted by sean | January 16, 2011, 5:07 pmI think Saad Hariri got assurances that Hizballah would be dealt with by the West (Yugoslavia style) should they be judged guilty of his father’s murder.
This might be why the Saudis called the SS off and the tribunal procedure are taking off.
Posted by PeterinDubai | January 16, 2011, 5:08 pmMy view:
– I agree with QN about the qualities and effectiveness of SHN
– At the same time, I humbly point out that uniquely superior oratory traits, ability to influence, inspire, unite a country and almost succeed in militarily conquering the world, and command martyrdom was also a trait of Adolf Hitler
– My point is NOT to equate the two. So puhleez don’t go blasting me on this. My point is – consistent with QN’s disclaimer that pointing out the qualities of SHN do not necessarily imply agreement with his opinion – that for all SHN’s superior talent and history-changing leadership in Lebanon, the path he has chosen may indeed be one of eventual destruction for Lebanon as an independent country, notwithstanding the blind admiration by some who are not Lebanese and/or not living in Lebanon.
Posted by Honest Patriot | January 16, 2011, 5:11 pmQifa , would you please post part 2 of the New TV report ?
Thanks
Posted by Abdo | January 16, 2011, 5:28 pmWe’ve heard over and over again examples of Hariri’s willingness to capitulate on the demands for ‘justice’ over his father’s assassination – first, when he offered Nasrallah a deal in which he would absolve Hizbullah’s leadership from any wrongdoing if they would offer up some low-level ‘rogue’ agents, and now again in the scheme of a larger political agreement.
This is why I’m so unconvinced by the notion that the STL is meant to deliver justice, as opposed to being used as a tool to pressure the opponent de jour. Just look at the names that will reportedly be named in the indictments – Khaminei, Mughnieh, Assad, Suleymani, Shawkat – it’s like a who’s who of super villains. I’m surprised they didn’t find a way to lump in Kim Jong Il!
I’m almost amazed anyone still feels the STL has any credibility. Like everything in Lebanon, this process has been completely politicized and mismanaged since day one.
Posted by Mehdi2 | January 16, 2011, 5:35 pmNasrallah must have left a lot out of his account of the Saudi-Syrian negotiations. On his account the “negotiation” consists of three major concessions on Hariri’s side, and one refused concession on HA’s side (“false witnesses”). Surely that is not what took place. It’s simply not a negotiation.
Posted by Jonathan | January 16, 2011, 5:35 pmA reasonably sane person would think religious indoctrination, particularly the Islamic faith, should be humbling particularly with its constant reference to God’s Will and submission. Yet Nasralha is an oddity. His rhetoric is one of a ego-maniacal and delusional self-grandeur. Proclaiming himself and his party as Lebanon’s only salvation is utter lunacy.
If anything he’s an outright heretic and devout of any religious and/or human morals.
Posted by ak | January 16, 2011, 5:39 pmThis story conflicts with HNA’s account,
http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/NewsDesk.nsf/getstory?openform&E4A150EAB1B282E5C22578160058690D
I also read two or three days ago, either in Naharnet or NowLebanon, a US government categorical denial that the S-S talks included any reference whatsoever to the STL. The denial asserted every thing negotiated between the S-S was in line and spirit with the International Legitimacy. I cannot find that story now but will keep looking.
HNA is not telling the truth here as in 2006, 2008 and 2011.
Posted by anonymous | January 16, 2011, 5:39 pmHonest Tea: “I humbly point out that…Adolf Hitler”
And Martin Luther King!!!
But you prefer Saudi Salifists and al Qaeda to Nasrallah and Iran.. Not so fond of Ahmadinejad of course, because he wants to be Putin. Both are popular and that’s a problem.
Please, lets raise the bar here a little.
Posted by Queequeg AbuKhalil the Jew | January 16, 2011, 5:43 pmMehdi2,
You can’t put a guy under immense political pressure with threats of civil conflict in order to force a negotiation, and then mock him, or question his integrity, when he shows some willingness to negotiate. Well, you can… but it’s immense bad faith.
If the indictment reads like an Austin Powers film then you can make your “super-villain” jibe. In the meantime, it doesn’t mean a whole lot.
Posted by Jonathan | January 16, 2011, 5:43 pmSorry, the link I pasted in comment 10 points to the wrong page. It looks like I have to copy and paste the whole story from Naharnet January 15. I cannot bet a link to that page. But you can also click on one of the links on the right side column of the same link I pasted above.
Here’s the story,
” 1
6diggsdigg
Lebanon
U.S. Congress Sources: Saudi King Abdullah was Very Upset from Assad
U.S. official sources strongly denied Syrian allegations that the U.S. had intervened in the Saudi-Syrian initiative aimed at ending the Lebanese political crisis, reported the daily An Nahar Saturday.
They also condemned “rumors spread by Syria” that King Abdullah and caretaker Prime Minister Saad Hariri were disputed over the latter’s failure to implement what was expected of him to end the crisis.
The truth is, said the sources, is that Saudi Arabia did not demand any specific concessions from Hariri, but Syria did not fulfill commitments pledged to the Saudis.
These commitments included demarcating the Lebanese-Syrian border, eliminating Syrian arrest warrants against a number of political and media figures close to Hariri, and tackling the Palestinians’ armed presence outside the Palestinian refugee camps in Lebanon.
The sources stated that Syrian President Bashar al-Assad refused to fulfill any pledge and wanted “to force Hariri to make concessions”, which caused the Saudi monarch to become very irritated with him, leading him to mistrust the Syrians.
The sources spoke of a disappointment over Syria’s lack of enthusiasm towards Obama’s call to hold a dialogue, adding that the Syrian president had a number of occasions to open a new page of ties with Washington through direct dialogue with Obama, but he passed up those opportunities.
They wondered that if the Syrians could not positively deal with Obama, then how would they fare with a Republic president.
Beirut, 15 Jan 11, 14:21″
Posted by anonymous | January 16, 2011, 5:57 pmMehdi2 :”I’m almost amazed anyone still feels the STL has any credibility. Like everything in Lebanon, this process has been completely politicized and mismanaged since day one.”
I can at times, rightfully, be deemed naive, but I am the kind of person who tends to believe, mostly, in what the international community believes is right (meaning I hardly ever find conspiracy theories convincing).
I don’t see how one can say that the STL is politicized unless one has inside intel. We don’t know the whole story and will not know it until, if even then, the trials begin.
Opponents of the STL, to a large degree, seem to think that Israel is behind the assassination of Hariri Sr. Of course, the US would have known about this, if not at the time of the actual deed then later. They then went ahead with the process, together with their allies in Lebanon, in starting up this whole big trial thing that will point its fingers towards Hizbollah, not worrying for a second how a huge thing like this eventually could blow up in their own faces. Those who committed the crime stand behind a huge international effort to uncover the perpetrators.
The STL has a quite a large number of people who easily, at some stage, could blow the whistle. The US and Israel could not hope to be able to control everybody at every stage. They then went ahead with an elaborate plan planting information by way of the telecom sector in Lebanon. Not many who disregard the telecom evidence tend to think how easy it would be proove it fabricated. Each number is for a certain someone, and that certain someone was at a certain point on a certain date. If it could be shown for certain that any of these dozen or so implicated was not where they were supposed to be according to the planted evidence, then it would all blow up. Israel could maybe maybe fabricate the phone calls, but they can not move the people to that actual spot from where the call was supposedly made.
I just don’t think one can make all this up.
Anyway, of course it can be called politicized if by that one means that Lebanese politicians are haggling over the issue day in and day out.
Posted by Pas Cool | January 16, 2011, 6:04 pmDemagoguery rather applies to many posts on this blog especially the prior one which distorted in a deceitful way the content of the first tape aired by New TV. Not to mention the 99% of the commentaries that accompany it.
Posted by NR | January 16, 2011, 6:18 pmThe problem some have with SHN is that he is as clever in playing politics as in playing arms – and this might upset others who haven’t got a similar clever figure in ther camp. Yes, I’m not a Lebanese but it looks comical to me when some talk about “their” country that SHN wants to shape to his liking – aren’t they trying to do the same, even if their ‘liking’ is American, French or even Saudi! The man is not ‘Iranianizing’ Lebanon (he’s talking and doing more ‘Lebanese’ than his opponenets)
Posted by AM | January 16, 2011, 6:20 pmHere’s the other story I referred to in comment 10. It is in Arabic, also from Nahar,
http://www.annahar.com/content.php?priority=3&table=main&type=main&day=Sat
Here’s the paragraph about the STL,
وشددت المصادر على ان العاهل السعودي الملك عبدالله كان “منزعجا جدا من الرئيس السوري”. واعترفت بأن المسؤولين لم يكونوا على علم بكل تفاصيل الاتصالات السعودية – السورية، وأنهم اطلعوا عليها كاملة خلال اللقاءات التي عقدوها مع الملك عبدالله وغيره من المسؤولين السعوديين في نيويورك في الاسابيع الاخيرة “ورأينا انها تتضمن عناصر ايجابية، خصوصا انها لا تشمل التخلي عن المحكمة الخاصة”.
Posted by anonymous | January 16, 2011, 6:21 pmThe talk about the tribunal loosing credibility and being politicized amuses me. The opposition media in Lebanon constantly bombard their audience with accusations of politicization, usually founded on distorted analysis, if not dishonest reporting. Can you blame the audience, if after hearing ad nauseam repetition of those claims, it starts to believe them? The sad truth is that, regardless of how accurate or inaccurate the claims may be, as soon as people start accusing a tribunal of being politicized, it becomes a very difficult reputation to shake off. So the more Nasrallah drones out his incantations, brilliantly crafted as they may be, the more he delegitimizes a process that might not have otherwise been delegitimized, in a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy.
With regard to Saad agreeing to abrogate the agreement creating the STL, it surprises me that none of his legal consultants told him he couldn’t legally, practically or officially do it. The reason for that is simple: Lebanon didn’t ratify the agreement, it was enforced through a Chapter VII resolution by the Security Council. THis means Lebanon has no choice but to abide by the resolution’s terms. If it refuses to do so, it opens the door to more coercive measures by the Security Council, such as sanctions.
Posted by Blackstar | January 16, 2011, 6:30 pmNR
Why don’t you calmly and methodically lay out an argument for why you think my posts are demagogue-ish, instead of just making general accusations?
Blackstar,
Thanks for your perspective. I agree that shaking off the reputation of politicization is very difficult. But so is the accusation of being a foreign-sponsored militia, for example, and Hizbullah has managed to shake that off very effectively with a large segment of the Lebanese population. I do think that Hariri and M14 have generally failed at the messaging war, mostly because they haven’t really tried to engage the opposition in a thoughtful and sophisticated manner.
Posted by Qifa Nabki | January 16, 2011, 6:36 pmJonathan – I realize that Hariri is compromising for the sake of stability. That’s exactly my point: you can’t deny that the STL is being used as a tool/bargaining chip by both sides, and that any and all claims of the commitment to ‘justice’ are null and void.
It reminds me of the old joke: a man goes up to a woman and says “will you sleep with me for $10 million?” and she says “yes of course”. Then he says “will you sleep with me for $100?” and she says “of course not what do you think I am, a prostitute?” and he replies “we already established that, now we’re just haggling on the price.”
We know Hariri is willing to torpedo the tribunal in exchange for a price deemed fit by himself and his foreign allies. It seems Saudi Arabia had a price in mind, and the United States had a different price in mind. As long as we’re all clear that there is an actual price, and it doesn’t involve “justice” or “the truth” then we’re better able to discuss this on a more realistic footing.
Pas Cool –
I do think you may be a bit naive. Wikileaks alone should show you that there are plenty of conspiracies which are true, and that there is no single view upon which the international community agrees. Nor are conspiracies uniquely Arab – how many millions of Americans believe Obama is a Socialist Marxist Muslim sleeper agent hell-bent on bringing Sharia law to the United States?
The reason why the STL has been politicized from the start is because its mere existence has been used to justify the political reality at any given time. When Hariri and the Syrians were at odds, the STL had proof the Syrians were the culprits. When the Saudis and the Syrians made up, all of a sudden we’re sure it was Hizbullah.
From day one, the STL has been used to justify pre-judged conclusions, not as a fact-finding investigation. There has been lying, manipulation, and leaks abound. If this took place in a real respectable court room, they would have claimed a mistrial for evidence tampering long ago. I just can’t take the tribunal seriously having followed all the missteps and manipulations.
Posted by Mehdi2 | January 16, 2011, 6:48 pmMehdi2
May be the Syrians and the Saudis made up after it became clear to the Saudis who killed Hariri!
Has anyone considered that the assassination of Mughniyeh was part of a package deal between S-S. Speaking of assassinations, a Hizb MP and Franjieh are speculating that the M14 forces are going to start blowing themselves up so they can blame it on M8 forces!
Posted by ToGuy | January 16, 2011, 7:15 pm…and now we are supposed to believe what Nassrallah said? because he is a good orator?
Sorry QN I do not see how you can credibly make this comment.
“But so is the accusation of being a foreign-sponsored militia, for example, and Hizbullah has managed to shake that off very effectively with a large segment of the Lebanese population”
HA has not shaken off anything. On the contrary when SHN proclaims his adherence to the W of F and thanking Iran…and treating Amjad as a conquering hero…I do not see how it has shaken it off? On the contrary he is RUBBING it in the faces of all Lebanese! He has effectively used the aggrieved Shia sects history to scare them and then promise to protect them.
A militia leader who has his guns pointed to the heads of all Lebanese does not have any credibility. Hariri so far has not given up anything and stood fast and strong against all HA machinations and threats…and yet we are supposed to believe the bully; because he speaks well?
Posted by danny | January 16, 2011, 7:22 pmMehdi2 –
Establishing the STL was a political decision – no doubt. That does not mean that the STL itself is politicized. Throughout the whole process Syria and Hezbollah have been the culprits, Hizb more now than before. That this would coincide with the breaking of Syria’s political isolation is, until proven otherwise, a mere coincidence. One can argue that Syria was not actually isolated as well arguing the point that Syria has as far as the leaks are concerned not been let off the hook. Either of these would render that argument of yours void. In any case, it is not feasable for either of us to proove any of what we are saying as we are merely speculating.
However, when has the STL been used to pre-judge anything? Rumors abound, but we know nothing of their certainty. The process around the STL is politicized, not necessarily the STL itself.
And yes, again, establishing the STL was a political decision. Countries were voting for or against it. The effects of the STL are political as well. Rumors have an effect on politics also, and maybe people who leak things are doing so for their own political agendas – what do we know?
We can not say for sure that the staff of the STL is pointing fingers just because Obama and Sarkozy say this or that. I’m sure however that Obama and Sarkozy will do the utmost to use the effects of the upcoming indictment to their advantage, but that is not the same thing.
Somebody killed Hariri and I have a hard time believing that those who are behind the international investigation trying to bring those who did kill Hariri to justice are the ones who committed the crime.
Posted by Pas Cool | January 16, 2011, 7:23 pmDanny ya habibi tawwel belak and read what I wrote: even if you don’t believe what he says, how can you not admit that he’s a great orator?
Even if you don’t believe that HA has shaken off the foreign militia thing, I think it is intellectually dishonest to ignore the fact that Hizbullah has a mainstream appeal in Lebanon. Go into any bar in Hamra on a Saturday night and ask the beer-swilling, ponytail-sporting denizens how many of them support HIzbullah, and I’ll bet you the numbers are way over 50%. These people are not part of the “aggrieved Shia sect”, and yet they believe what Nasrallah is saying, nor do they feel that he has his guns pointed at their heads, or that he is a bully.
Like it or not, he has mass appeal in Lebanon. That doesn’t mean you have to like him. But plenty of others do, and that’s because he has a commanding presence and an amazing ability to connect with an audience. Nobody else comes close. And I can admit that even though I disagree (often vehemently) with much of what Hizbullah is doing in Lebanon.
Posted by Qifa Nabki | January 16, 2011, 7:27 pmDanny
His oratory skills are not necessarily aimed at you. A person standing at his rally I’m sure will be taken by what he says and how he says it.
Having said that, Hizbollah is not really hiding the fact that they are sponsored by Iran. Israeli aggression will give the Resistance-axis plenty of freebees and goodwill. People will forgive Hizbollah for they are waging a war, or so they say, against the Zionists. M14 does not have this political advantage to make use of. Also, they have the disadvantage of having legitimized the Resistance in numerous ways, amongst other in the governmental declaration, making them prone to vicious counterattacks would they start denouncing the Resistance in any more obvious way. Hizb is making people show that M14 backing the STL is an obvious way of targeting the Resistance (which easily can spin into helping Israel in its ambitions), and M14 has not been able to counter this in a good way.
Posted by Pas Cool | January 16, 2011, 7:31 pmI’ve posted a link to the Al-Jadid clip PART TWO on the bottom of the post above. Enjoy…
Posted by Qifa Nabki | January 16, 2011, 7:33 pmPas Cool
“Hizb is making people show that M14 backing the STL is an obvious way of targeting the Resistance (which easily can spin into helping Israel in its ambitions), and M14 has not been able to counter this in a good way.”
The sheeple that believe the HA spin cannot be helped! Try that spin on people who are not affected one way or another and they will tell you how incredibly ludicrous HA assertions are. BTW; whatever happened to Nassrallah’s assertions and promise of proof the Mossad killed hariri/ (with a 1998 overfly tape lol?
There are no neutral people left in Lebanon. Either you follow HA or you don’t.
I’d rather wait and see what the STL will achieve as I see a HA that is running scared and soiling their diapers irrespective of their holed conqueror. 😀
Posted by danny | January 16, 2011, 7:40 pmI find the discussion in this blog very interesting. I am a jew living in Israel (we go to war every 10 years or so).
I can see why many of you find Nasrallah to be “the great arab leader”. I can not understand how anybody which is not Shia is not afraid of him. However, my question is different?
Is it really important ? The STL? Did’nt Hizballah already take over Lebanon ? I remember them sending forces to Beirut a few years back? They can declare war (which Lebanon will clearly be a part of) any day they like. As someone here pointed out “the opposition has the big guns”.
Isnt this entire discussion already too late?
Posted by Tamir | January 16, 2011, 7:42 pmHassan Nasrallah is going for all or nothing and gambling a lot of people’s lives, he seems to take “divinely” for granted, on it.
I wouldn’t want to be Shi’ite when the STL judges Hizballah guilty of the murder of Rafiq Hariri.
I don’t think Lebanese will take kindly to the Shi’ites butchering themselves and the rest of the Lebanese for Mr. Nasrallah’s “vision” of Utopia in the world.
Apart from a place in heaven with a harem of virgins, there’s not much the Shi’ites will leave behind for their children’s future or Lebanon.
Posted by PeterinDubai | January 16, 2011, 7:45 pmDare I suggest that Bin Laden is a far greater Masterbator.. oops, I mean Master Orator than his Royal Highness HN.
QN: Thanks for that link on the False Witness Issue. I must say I’m a little confused now. Phone records were linked previously to Some Sunni militant group now all of a sudden are linked to Hizballah?
We know Hussam is living it up in Syria. But what about this other character Siddiq. Where’s he living?
From my vantage point, it seems the Opposition are doing their utmost to subvert, obstruct and demolish the STL. And that’s not speaking much for their credibility. I’m not so sure those Jadeed videos are so much of a Fadhee7a, than just another in a string of attempts at subversion.
That Hariri did not have better political acumen than to involve himself directly in conversations with a “Witness” tells more of his political naivety than his mendaciousness.
Posted by Gabriel | January 16, 2011, 8:09 pmI think enough can be said about our brotherly Shi’ites when they refuse a master plan to rebuild their homes in an eco-friendly environment with parks surrounding their homes and neighborhoods … and instead opt to rebuild their homes in the exact haphazard and uncoordinated way they came to live there in the first place.
Posted by PeterinDubai | January 16, 2011, 8:57 pmPas Cool –
How is the STL itself not politicized? What self-respecting impartial, apolitical investigation would allow leaks to journalists at every step of the process? A great deal of time and money was wasted investigating leads peddled by nothing more than crooks and liars – is it not pertinent to investigate the motivation of those giving false testimony? Why is the STL not making a larger issue out of investigating those who chose to push a certain narrative?
At this point, the STL needs to have some pretty iron-clad, damning evidence beyond the phone networks reported by the CBC. Anything less than a smoking gun will not hold up in the court of public opinion, where the real trial will be held. Consider me skeptical – I can’t imagine, after all this time, the STL will have found credible evidence linking Khaminei, Assad, Mughnieyeh, Suleymani, and Shawkat, as well as the Revolutionary Guard and Hizbullah. The fact that all of those parties are reportedly going to be named tells me there is very little actual evidence, and more circumstantial evidence designed to push a political goal.
But…we will soon know for sure. These are definitely interesting times, and perhaps all this speculation is nothing more than an exercise in futility until we know who is going to be indicted and what evidence exists.
Posted by Mehdi2 | January 16, 2011, 9:08 pmThis is my take on what I saw in that other entertaining clip. Thanks QN, I really enjoyed, having lived through it.
The hizzies are airing these so-called recordings just to tell the Syrians you are not going to get away with it and we get to pay the whole bill. That is all there is to it.
Nothing new except that the hizzies are resigned to the fact that their role in the crime can no longer be covered up.
“Speaking of assassinations, a Hizb MP and Franjieh are speculating that the M14 forces are going to start blowing themselves up so they can blame it on M8 forces!”
ToGuy 21,
This is comunque #1. Read as follows: Either we get our nominee to PM or you (m14) have to die one by one.
Posted by anonymous | January 16, 2011, 9:08 pmHassan seems to think he can convert Christians and Sunnis to Shi’ism. As if the Ayatollah and the Iranian regime is a “the” beacon to the world.
Posted by PeterinDubai | January 16, 2011, 9:16 pmI also suspect that the source of this information is that computer that was snatched in the South Beirut clinic.
PID 33,
You got that figured out right on. They think they will have their cake and eat it. But I liked the beacon part in your comment.
Delusion has no limits.
Posted by anonymous | January 16, 2011, 9:25 pmWhen will raping people along religious lines finally end ?
Posted by PeterinDubai | January 16, 2011, 9:42 pmQN – I totally agree with you M14 totally lost the messaging war as you put and I think in that post of yours about messaging I commented about the urgent need for Hariri to fire his media team and hire a new one. They are doing a lousy job and the worst part of it is that they have a model that works in front of them, that of Hizballah, and all they need is to copy it. I am not asking them to produce a clone of SHN but to use the same methods and tactics. Total FAIL.
To Mehdi2 and to all those skeptical of the “politicization” of the STL and to those who are enamoured with HA, doesn’t anybody find it offensive that SHN today pretty much said that either you (M14 and any new government) do as I tell you or else we will use our weapons or at the very least “incite” civil unrest. He did mention Tunisia but with all due respect ya SHN, you can’t compare a spontaneous uprising in Tunisia to active sectarian incitement emanating in Dahiyeh at the urging of the leader of an armed militia. Ma3leish!
What Franjieh said tonight about assassinations is another ominous sign in the same direction.
Posted by MM | January 16, 2011, 9:45 pmMM:
The question of the STL should not in fact be a “messaging” war. It is an investigation. And we shouldn’t have the parties involved involved in a propaganda machine against the other side.
That HN has decided to use his great “oratory” skills to wage a campaign of discrediting the STL is certainly his prerogative, but I think if the STL does come up with some damning evidence, then Hariri’s silence throughout this whole thing will be to his very strong credit.
Posted by Gabriel | January 16, 2011, 10:18 pmI could care less about the M14 vs Opposition debate. If it’s not totally 100% obvious to all Lebanese by now that members of Hizb were involved in the killing of Hariri then I have no hope for you and I bet you also believe that Aliens and UFO’s were just over your house last night.
To even remotely believe that the STL is somehow working towards an Isreali plot is beyond silly, but anyway I tend to believe in logic over conspiracy. I’m just a bit crazy that way.
Now, maybe we Lebanese should rise up as one against both M14 and Opposition and bring in some new leadership? I’m tired hearing Aoun, Hariri, SHN, Jumblat, Berri, Gemeyal, etc. We should have buried them with the last civil war.
Posted by george | January 16, 2011, 10:20 pmMM,
I do not see it the way you look at it. I also do not think the Hizb media is that effective. If anything these tapes will simply reinforce the conviction of the public of what it heard all along i.e. Syria, Iran and Hizb are responsible for all the assassinations since 2005.
As for Hariri media, I also do not think he needs to change anything. His media will soon respond even more effectively than this amateurish production of hizb aspiration to Hollywood drama. They already promised that they (Hariri) will reveal more documents than what Hizies seem to have in their pockets.
We are witnessing the firing of the last bullets of a bankrupt organization. Mark my words.
Posted by anonymous | January 16, 2011, 10:24 pmP.S. if SHN’s hypocrisy regarding his views on the Tunisian uprising versus his views on the Iranian uprising doesn’t make you realize by now that this man is making sh&t up as he goes along than I also have no hope for you. Enough of this crap about how he is such a good politician. The guy is no more than a dictator and fundamentalist. Providing any type of support for this guy will only add to the demise of what we know as Lebanon today.
Posted by george | January 16, 2011, 10:24 pmGabriel and Anonymous 38, I was not criticizing Team Hariri media’s silence on, or lack of defense of the STL.
– It’s about defending themselves and their positions after each and every attack by SHN on the STL and them.
-It’s about the lack of a central strategy. -It’s about ignoring and not crafting the right message that will woo the overwhelming base of the FPM who are scared sh*@less of Hizballah and its weapons. no matter what Aoun tells you, the majority of the FPM are with the STL and are worried of Hizballah.
-It’s about not combating the false theory that Salafi fundamentalists are the ones that Christians should fear when in fact they do not have the ability or popular support or political cover to inflict harm on Christians and ignoing the fact that Shia fundamentalists (Hizballah) have the ability and means to raze Lebanon if the orders come in from Mr Khamenei.
-Its about a dozen other things that will take many megabytes to explain so I will stop here.
Posted by MM | January 16, 2011, 10:58 pmMM:
On your last point. Don’t forget that not 3 weeks ago, 10s of Copts were killed or injured.
And a couple of months ago, the same thing happened in Baghdad.
Is the theory that “Salafists”, or whatever name you want to give them, are the ones to fear really all that off-mark?
My feeling is that depending on where the STL goes, history will either remember Hariri Jnr as the greatest thing to hit Lebanon, or its biggest idiot. Here’s to hoping that behind that daft veneer, he’s been hedging his bets on greatness.
Posted by Gabriel | January 16, 2011, 11:19 pmMM,
On that regard I see your point.
There’s not much you can do with the hardcore Aounists. These are finished. The blame lies squarely on Aoun’s demagoguery and his blind hatred and disdain of anything called Hariri and not the hizzies weapons.
There is hope however that the ranks and file will see the light and break away from such madness of the old man and his line.
I also believe that some are beginning to distance themselves from this precipice that they are thrust into. I certainly hope they will act before long as they will not only save themselves but also the rest of the country with them including the Shia who, by following this idiot, are themselves committing suicide and forcing everyone along the same path.
Posted by anonymous | January 16, 2011, 11:28 pmGabriel:
Point taken on how dangerous religious fundamentalism can be. But my point was more along the lines that if you speak to a typical Aouni FPM supporter they will sincerely believe that because Hariri is a Sunni then he should be feared because the Salfis are Sunni too – meanwhile forgetting all about how potentially dangerous Hizballah can be the minute they decide to change the way they behave.
The minute the Salafis in Lebanon decide to do anything they will be combated by the army and thrown in jail as was the case in Nahr Albared and in 1999-2000 with the blessings and support of Hariri Senior. Good luck with an army intervention if Hizballah decides to misbehave as was the case in May 2008.
Posted by MM | January 16, 2011, 11:41 pmCan anyone explain to me why Hariri isn’t bending over backward to kiss the ass of his father’s murderer? And it doesn’t look to me as if HA and Nasrallah are so innocent. Innocent people don’t make so much noise and quit the government just on rumors.
Does Hariri have a deathwish? Does he really want to confront a jihadist organization that’s militarily superior to the Lebanese government?
And I can’t believe Hariri was promised military support from the West with Obama in office.
I see Hariri in exile to Saudi Arabia…
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704307404576080160468567004.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
Posted by Akbar Palace | January 16, 2011, 11:45 pmHey MM,
Are you saying that a typical FPMer believes that the Nahr al-Bared gang of so-called salafis (or whatever) are associated with Hariri? Is this what I should understand from your last comment?
If so, then indeed the FPMer’s are living on a different planet. These gangs were manufactured in Damascus and sent across the border.
Hey MM, you probably have a clue but do not understand clearly how this alliance of Hizb/Syria/Iran functions. These guys operate by infiltrating other communities and seek to destabilize that community from within. They have people who are trained specifically for that purpose in order to create foot soldiers to fight their battle on their behalf. They send groups under diffrent names and so-called ideologies in order to achieve their end. Do you know that there are hundreds of al-Qaida members in Iran itself, financed by its government and used to carry out its agenda?
Are you familiar with the common adage of someone who kills somebody and he would be the first to show up in the funeral? This is the kind of people you are dealing with here.
Posted by anonymous | January 16, 2011, 11:58 pmPeterinDubai # 31
“I think enough can be said about our brotherly Shi’ites when they refuse a master plan to rebuild their homes in an eco-friendly environment with parks surrounding their homes and neighborhoods … and instead opt to rebuild their homes in the exact haphazard and uncoordinated way they came to live there in the first place.”
Other than your obvious bigotry and stupidity can you enlighten us how is the above statement relevant to the discussion? Maybe you can share with us what exactly you concluded about your “brotherly Shi’ites” please also share with us the evidence that SHN is converting Sunni and Christians into Shia
Can you be more stupid? I think you are capable.
Looks like this site is turning into a Shia bashing fest with comments from the Master Racist Phoenician High Priest Anonymous and his new dumbass sidekick Peterindubai.
Posted by V | January 17, 2011, 12:05 amanaon, 40,44
“I also do not think the Hizb media is that effective? If anything these tapes will simply reinforce the conviction of the public of what it heard all along i.e. Syria, Iran and Hizb are responsible for all the assassinations since 2005.”
Where did you hear that?lol
Did you also hear that Qatar and Turkey are involved? I forgot to mention, that some people heard (did you?)That “Al mahdi Almuntathar “was also involved and most likely His name will be at the top of the list in the indictment?”
According to your hear-say analogy, it took Iran, Syria, ha, the Lebanese president (LaHood), the four officers, Qatar, turkey, and Almahdi to plan, and execute the assassination of Hariri.
I find you “concern” for the Aounists and the Shiia who are following “Idiot” very comical. Would you, at least tell us how you come to believe that “that some are beginning to distance themselves from this precipice that they are thrust into”?
You seem to confuse your believes with your hopes now.
Posted by prophett | January 17, 2011, 12:20 amProphett 49,
we’ll find out all about that soon. Just don’t get too excited.
Posted by anonymous | January 17, 2011, 1:02 amV,
I’ll get to that once I’m wearing a divine turban on my head, threaten you “softly” with my militia and liquidate those that stand in my way of stopping me from imposing my hegemony on the world.
Posted by PeterinDubai | January 17, 2011, 1:29 amAnd the reconstructed Dahyieh is a “model” to the rest of the world.
Posted by PeterinDubai | January 17, 2011, 1:32 amThat burger joint in Dahyieh with sand barricades for decoration and rocket sounds for music turned out to be a real worldwide hit for the Lebanese economy.
Posted by PeterinDubai | January 17, 2011, 1:39 amWe gotta give credit where credit is due V.
Dahyieh is a tourism and business platform before and after 2006 that the rest of Lebanon should emulate.
Posted by PeterinDubai | January 17, 2011, 1:45 ampeterindubai…….. the name is Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah , Sayyed comes before Hassan Nasrallah , like it or not , Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah became a Sayyed at the moment of his conception thus he was born a Sayyed just like , since you are in Dubai , sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid Al Maktoum was born a sheikh….get it.
now you can disagree with Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah on every count and you can even hate him we really don’t give a hoot , but you cant disrespect the title as it is a pillar of shia islam, to do so is to insult every shia on this planet , not a smart thing do not to even in dubai.
Shia Muslims in lebanon had died fighting like all patriates around the world and throughout history to defend themselves and lebrate their ancestral homes and villages from Israeli occupation and aggression , they do not fight to die they fight to live and when they die fighting they didn’t die for pussy , to imply so confirms what others on this board had described you a dumb ass and a bigot.
Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah is not the first sayyed to come out of the lebanese Shia comunity nor will he be the last , the shia of lebanon had lived and will continue to live and prospore long after Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah , my advice to you and your likes … hold your horses and stick to what you know.
Posted by BamBoo | January 17, 2011, 3:44 amQN # 24 “Like it or not, he has mass appeal in Lebanon. That doesn’t mean you have to like him. But plenty of others do, and that’s because he has a commanding presence and an amazing ability to connect with an audience.”
While “a commanding presence and an ability to connect to an audience” are qualities that add to his likeability, it needs to be said that he has far greater qualities that make him a highly respected individual. When your enemies find you more credible and more honest than their own leaders then that has to say something.
Personally, i find his sacrifices, his honesty, his integrity, his intelligence, his courage, his weaknesses,and his love for his country very admirable and likeable qualities.
Now if only he and his party will put in the same effort in liberating this country from the grip of corruption as they put in liberating southern lebanon….
Posted by BB | January 17, 2011, 3:50 amI don’t want to horn in on QN’s turf here, but I think some of you guys need to cool it on the sectarian “shi’a this, shi’a that” talk.
Posted by sean | January 17, 2011, 4:11 amsean…I am all for cooling it and sticking with the issues but we can’t participate in an intelligent exchange with this kind of gratuitous interference , namely the insults being thrown at our community or any other community by any lurking low life like this peterinDubai.
Posted by BamBoo | January 17, 2011, 4:34 amBamBoo.. i for one am anti-religious and i don’t subscribe to your rational of some birth-linkage or what have you. as far as i am concerend he’s just a human like you and me. you can still chose to call him your sayed, that’s your business.
Posted by mlk | January 17, 2011, 5:13 amThis is explosive stuff, Talal Salman of assafir newspaper mentioned in the Aljadeed Tv tape II had responded to Saad Harriri with this:
http://www.assafir.com/Article.aspx?EditionId=1747&ChannelId=40975&ArticleId=1598&Author=طلال%20سلمان
ولعل الرئيس الشاب يتذكر، أو يجد إلى جانبه من يذكره، أنني تعرضت لمحاولة اغتيال إجرامية، فجر يوم الرابع عشر من تموز 1984، وأثناء عودتي من لقاء مع أبيه لم يكن مقرراً، بل ذهبت إليه ـ تحت ضغط إلحاحه ـ … للسمر!
في ذلك الفجر أصيب معي رفيقان، أصيب أحدهما في عينه، وأجريت للثاني سبع عمليات جراحية، وأصبت في وجهي مما جعلني مهدداً بالشلل، لكن الله أكرمني بأن كتب لي الحياة.
وغني عن البيان أن ثروات الأرض جميعاً لا تعادل قطرة دم واحدة تهدر غيلة…
He seems to be accusing the slain Harriri of setting him up to be assasinated and implying that the money he was getting was a hush money for doing so.
Posted by BamBoo | January 17, 2011, 5:19 amMehdi2,
You say:
“We know Hariri is willing to torpedo the tribunal in exchange for a price deemed fit by himself and his foreign allies. It seems Saudi Arabia had a price in mind, and the United States had a different price in mind. As long as we’re all clear that there is an actual price, and it doesn’t involve “justice” or “the truth” then we’re better able to discuss this on a more realistic footing.”
Hariri is a politician and he can try to negotiate his way towards minimizing the impact of the Tribunal if that is in his interests and the interests of his country. But that has nothing to do with the way the STL functions. The STL have not put up a for sale sign. Political wrangling will not substantially affect the actual workings of the Tribunal. The only political body with the authority to do anything with the Tribunal is the Security Council and they certainly won’t be trading it in.
Just because justice and truth are pursued in real situations, with real stakes, and mediated by real institutions, needn’t be a cause for complete cynicism about the rule of law.
Posted by Jonathan | January 17, 2011, 5:28 amQifa
At the end of your awkward apology of Hariri and embarrassed admittance of Nasrallah intelligence and integrity, you insist that Hezbollah would be nothing without Nasrallah. Are you suggesting the solution is to eliminate him to save Lebanon?. I found your insinuation very disturbing
Posted by why-discuss | January 17, 2011, 6:03 amMehdi2:
“What self-respecting impartial, apolitical investigation would allow leaks to journalists at every step of the process? A great deal of time and money was wasted investigating leads peddled by nothing more than crooks and liars – is it not pertinent to investigate the motivation of those giving false testimony?”
You seem to know that the leaks were approved by the STL. You can not know this for sure. As far as their official statements go, the leaks are detrimental to the ongoing investigation and thus not approved by the STL.
Think of it this way. How many people have access to the some juicy stuff regarding the investigation? Not only Bellemare, Mehlis and some of their closest staff. No, we’re talking a myriad of investigators from various countries coming and going. We’re talking translators, secretaries and not to mention all those responsible for archive. We’re talking several dozen if not hundreds of people on the inside. Anyone of them could have leaked info for some thousands of dollars to a journalist. Money talks.
And again, unless you have some kind of inside intel that is waterproof, you can not know what they have investigated and what they have left out. You can not know what weight they have assigned to these so called false witnesses. It is all speculation made big by politicians in Lebanon for their own political purposes and really does not have much to do with the proceedings of the STL itself. Perhaps the STL has discredited these false witnesses? What do you and I know!?
You speak of the court of public opinion
“Anything less than a smoking gun will not hold up in the court of public opinion, where the real trial will be held.”
This is exactly the strategy of those rumored being on the receiving end of the upcoming indictments, nullifying anything coming from the Zionist propaganda machine (i.e. the STL). If those on the receiving end can persuade enough people that the STL is politicized the effect of the upcoming indictments will be so much less. And from the looks of it they have succeeded rather well, but not well enough. Nota bene, the indictments are not the sentences in themselves. Hizb is afraid of being linked to the murder of Hariri, ’cause just like you said, it is the court of public opinion that matters to them.
I totally agree with your last sentence.
Posted by Pas Cool | January 17, 2011, 6:32 amwhy-discuss @62 – you make a very strange inference, even though you couch it as a question. Your hint at that inference is based on nothing else but sophistry.
Although I can’t easily go searching for the exact quote I do remember many a comment and/or post by QN about how SHN has been effective at preventing HA from causing true sectarian strife by his ability to reach out to individuals from across all sects in Lebanon. The implication here – using pure logic and not your kind of sophistry – is that any other leader of HA would risk causing more strife and suffering in Lebanon. How would then that imply that a “solution” is to “eliminate” SHN?
Wake up and smell the hummus.
Posted by Honest Patriot | January 17, 2011, 7:28 amConsultation for nomination postponed until next Monday
http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/NewsDesk.nsf/getstory?openform&8F27354431EB0083C225781B0021A76D
“A March 14 official told the newspaper that Speaker Nabih Berri and Progressive Socialist Party leader Walid Jumblat suggested to Suleiman on Sunday night to postpone the consultations.
“Their suggestion came after a request from the Syrian leadership,” the source said. “
Posted by anonymous | January 17, 2011, 9:13 amI thank you for replying to my question in another post a few days ago.
Posted by Yann | January 17, 2011, 9:23 amI’m just getting around now to reading the comments, and I’m glad that others have remarked on some of the deeply offensive remarks about the Shi`a.
Any more remarks of that nature from anyone, and you will be suspended from commenting. I’ve had to ban people in the past for making bigoted remarks about other sects and I won’t hesitate to do it again. You can disagree all you like with each other about politics, but as soon as the discussion starts shading into sectarian supremacist rhetoric, I draw the line.
Understood? Thanks.
Posted by Qifa Nabki | January 17, 2011, 10:11 amWhy-Discuss
I’m disturbed by your own direct suggestion that I’m insinuating that Nasrallah should be eliminated. I meant nothing of the sort, but are you trying to send signals to the many Israelis who read this blog? Maybe you should stop giving them ideas…
Posted by Qifa Nabki | January 17, 2011, 10:13 am“A March 14 official told the newspaper that Speaker Nabih Berri and Progressive Socialist Party leader Walid Jumblat suggested to Suleiman on Sunday night to postpone the consultations.
“Their suggestion came after a request from the Syrian leadership,” the source said. “
Are there any politicians in this sorry excuse for a state that can ever make a decision that is not reached abroad?
This is the second time in a week that Mr. Jumblatt says openly that he will do whatever Syrian officials ask him to do. That might not be a crime but it sure raises questions about which country isdoes Mr. Jumblatt represent and what is more important it raises questions about the level of accountability that he is held to by his constituents.
Obviously the willingness of the Speaker to also play the role of a foreign agent is at least equally disturbing. What is even more disturbing is the failure of the unconstitutionally elected President to act on behalf of the country. As if unconstitutionality is not enough, he combines it with incompetence.
BTW, the politicians from the other side who wait for instructions from saudi Arabia , the US … are just as reprehensible.
Save Lebanon: Sack its political class.
Posted by Ghassan Karam | January 17, 2011, 10:18 amQN, why is it that you ALWAYS have a way of expressing this so easily and directly whereas I struggle with elaborate constructions that only make the meaning vague?
Hmm, I think I know.
You have mastered: “al-sahl al-mumatne3” style.
Amen
Posted by Honest Patriot | January 17, 2011, 10:35 amI have a question with the lebanese nasrallah haters… how can you reject the Resistance and its leader who are the only ones that have worked for Lebanon and protected it?
If Lebanon was a working country at peace, i’d be the first the welcome such criticism, but by not sticking to the Resistance you are playing the games of your enemies.
Posted by Tunisian | January 17, 2011, 10:42 amTunisian,
How can I be against a man who took the country to the edge of abyss and destruction in 2006?
How can one be against a man who turned his guns against Lebanese in January 2007 and May 2008?
How can one be against a man who swears his allegiance to Iran’s supreme leader offering our limbs in sacrifice for him?
How can one be against someone who takes orders from Iran/Syria and threatens daily to cut off our body parts if we don’t agree with him?
How can one be against a religious theocratic and authoritarian party and leader who says there will be no peace until Israel wiped out?
How can one be against hope of justice for once in their lifetime and not rely on SHN’s bravado and rhetoric?
Well these are some questions for your “Resistance man” who hides in the holes and screams at the monitors while poor Lebanese face the consequences!
How can one be against such an amazing idol?
Posted by danny | January 17, 2011, 10:59 amQueequeg #11
Today, we, here in the US, are celebrating Martin Luther King Day.
Apparently, there are few facts that we didn’t know about MLK. For instance:
-We didn’t know that MLK was sponsored by a foreign government
-We didn’t know that MLK has repeatedly threatened to”cut off the hands “of anybody that disagreed with him
-We didn’t know that MLK had a militia
-We didn’t know that MLK’s militia has 40,000 rockets
-etc…
I think I will take it upon myself to collects all these and other “divine” facts and update MLK’s Wikipedia’s page.
By all means, let’s raise bar here a little.
Posted by htj | January 17, 2011, 11:13 amFinally the indictments have been submitted for judicial review.
Posted by Ghassan Karam | January 17, 2011, 11:28 amTunisian,
QN @ 68: “…the many Israelis who read this blog”
You @ 71: “I have a question with the lebanese nasrallah haters… how can you reject the Resistance and its leader who are the only ones that have worked for Lebanon and protected it?”
Danny @ 72: “How can I be against a man who took the country to the edge of abyss and destruction in 2006?”
Another Israeli Hasbara Boy.
The majority of Lebanese look to Hezbollah to defend the country. A minority look to Israel as modern and imagine themselves as modern as a way of defending their own privilege. To this end they accept support from the most corrupt reactionary fundamentalists on the planet. So the Gemayels and Samir Gaga are called liberals while Hariri drinks scotch with Abdullah.
March 14 “Freedom” is not democracy and Arab democracy (and democracy in Israel and the west bank) is what the Israelis fear more than anything.
Hope the explanation helps.
Posted by Queequeg AbuKhalil the Jew | January 17, 2011, 11:30 amQN#67
While this is your site, and censorship certainly is your prerogative, may I humbly suggest that the antidote to hate speech is more speech.
Posted by Gabriel | January 17, 2011, 11:55 amI am absolutely amazed at how little people on this Blog know about Covert operations….
We have witnessed since 1996 onwards…some of the most horrific, barbaric and cruel covert operations ever witnessed by mankind…, and part o fit were the criminal assassinations in the Levant….
Learn your Covert Ops. 101, and then come back to discuss the string of assassinations in the Levant….
Posted by Jim | January 17, 2011, 12:38 pmJim,
I am just curious how do you know that a covert operation took place , if it was covert:-) Or has it become more acceptable to explain that which we do not like simply by calling it a covert explanation without having to provide a shred of evidence in support of the theory besides rhetorical flourish.
Posted by Ghassan Karam | January 17, 2011, 12:49 pmIt’s all about the absence of evidence, isn’t it, Jim? That’s the dead giveaway. And then the presence of evidence that points the finger elsewhere, that absolutely seals the deal. If it walks like a duck, it must be a flamingo.
Posted by Jonathan | January 17, 2011, 1:04 pmQueequeg,
Who on earth is supporting the people you mentioned? Can’t people like you who are blinded and brainwashed with crude ideas (Why can’t the resistance be all inclusive? made of all Lebanese? Do you have a reply to that?)see that we do want peace and coexistence with all races and religions? Why can’t you see that we would like to have a future that is safe and bright for us and our children…and NOT the constant drums of war?
If you hate Israel and is hell bent on its destruction; do it from Syria or Iran and leave us alone!
Posted by danny | January 17, 2011, 1:09 pmQueequeg, who ARE you?
Your utterances make absolutely no sense; no logic; no facts; no reasoning.
Why do you call yourself “the Jew?”
Are you a religious Jew? or are you just a noise maker?
One thing that you have displayed, and only one, is bumbling incompetence.
Posted by Honest Patriot | January 17, 2011, 1:17 pmThe sumission of the indictment is know official; its no longer a rumour.
“Leidschendam, 17 January 2011 – The Registrar of the Special Tribunal for Lebanon, Herman von Hebel, can confirm that the Prosecutor of the tribunal has submitted an indictment and supporting materials to the Pre-Trial Judge. The documents, which relate to the assassination of Rafiq Hariri and others, were handed to the Registry at 16:35PM (local time) on Monday 17th January 2011. They will now be reviewed by the Pre-Trial Judge, Daniel Fransen. The contents of the indictment remain confidential at this stage.” As per the official STL website.
Posted by Ghassan Karam | January 17, 2011, 1:59 pmTamir
(Israely @ Jew, not “Another Israeli Hasbara Boy” – liked that 🙂
Just wanted to clarify the followings :
Qifa Nabki @ 68
1) We do not need this blog to get ideas on eliminating SHN. There is a reason he lives in a Bunker for the last .. well, ever since he step into office in 1991.
Queequeg AbuKhalil @ 75
2) Israel (as hard as it probably sounds to you) is indeed a democracy you could envy. Just last week the Israely former president was found guilty for rape. Lebanese can not even blame the men who assassinated Hariri.
3) Can anyone point out to why should Israel & Lebanon be in constant state of war? (We pulled out of Southern Lebanon 10 years ago). Maybe the fact that peace (in whatever form) may eliminate Hizballah justification for keeping his arms (and the ability to bully all of Lebanon, and yes also bully Israel but why is that so good for Lebanon?).
Posted by Tamir | January 17, 2011, 2:07 pmTamir – don’t generalize to all Lebanese or former Lebanese or Lebanese diaspora.
There are fewer than 4 million in Lebanon and about 16 million worldwide. It’s a bad time/era for Lebanon but has not always been the case nor will for ever be the case.
With Tunis, we have the beginning of the end of dictatorships. Who’s next?
From a Lebanon interest point of view there is a lot to be antagonistic to Israel about. There is much more to be antagonistic to Iran, Syria, and many puppets of those two in Lebanon. Like GK says what’s need is a detox from all the traditional politicians in Lebanon and the emergence of true patriots who have the interest of Lebanon and its people – and ONLY Lebanon and its people at heart.
Posted by Honest Patriot | January 17, 2011, 2:17 pmMais Danny,
C’est clair, non?
In the experiment known as “Democracy” in Lebanon some things ought to be evident.
(1) If you’re Christian in any meaningful way, your views are not important.
(2) If you’re a Hypocrite Sunni, your views are not important. One measure of the Hypocrite Sunni is if they have a glass of Scotch with another Hypocrite Sunni.
(While imbibing alcohol is certainly not a faux-pas, it is preferable that the liquid in question is Arak and that the company is other likeminded revolutionaries. Only then will your hypocrisy not be pointed out so blatantly).
Posted by Gabriel | January 17, 2011, 2:19 pmTo all those who subscribe to or use as wishful thinking the scenario of “Israel did it” for the assassination of Rafiq Hariri, how do you explain the assassination of Wissam Eid?
Posted by Honest Patriot | January 17, 2011, 2:22 pmGK @ 78-79 and all
Do you know that in 16-17 years of a certain line of work in the military…. and research I have challenged many people, including on pro-Israeli fora…, and at least three former CIA agents who have been active in the ME and in the time frame we are talking about here…., to point out a SINGLE instance of “Hezbollah terrorism” and nobody, NOBODY, has ever been able to point me to one? Vague, general, accusation, that’s all I got from them… LOL. I almost wonder if Hezbollah is not the ONLY political force in the Middle-East which never committed a terrorist act 🙂
Cheers!
Posted by Jim | January 17, 2011, 4:25 pmJim, if you go back to the 1980’s do you consider the bombing of the marine barracks and/or the kidnapping of American citizens in Lebanon terrorism? If not, (and that’s ok), how do you classify these acts.
What about the operations from South Lebanon AFTER Israel withdrew?
What about the rather indiscriminate launching of missiles into Israel?
What about location of missile launchers in the vicinity or within civilian buildings?
Let’s start with those and see how you would characterize them.
Posted by Honest Patriot | January 17, 2011, 5:04 pmJim,
You said in #77 “I am absolutely amazed at how little people on this Blog know about Covert operations….
We have witnessed since 1996 onwards…some of the most horrific, barbaric and cruel covert operations ever witnessed by mankind…, and part o fit were the criminal assassinations in the Levant….
Learn your Covert Ops. 101, and then come back to discuss the string of assassinations in the Levant….”
And when you were asked about what makes you certain that an operation is “covert” when no body else seems to think so..
you come back with this lame response : “Do you know that in 16-17 years of a certain line of work in the military…. and research I have challenged many people, including on pro-Israeli fora…, and at least three former CIA agents who have been active in the ME and in the time frame we are talking about here…., to point out a SINGLE instance of “Hezbollah terrorism” and nobody, NOBODY, has ever been able to point me to one? Vague, general, accusation, that’s all I got from them… LOL. I almost wonder if Hezbollah is not the ONLY political force in the Middle-East which never committed a terrorist act :-)”
As is clear you did not even attempt to provide an answer which leads one to suspect that your original statement was nothing else but fulmination and empty rhetoric 🙂 I am sure that you can do better than this. It is very simple: You made a specific accusation, you were asked to back it up and you have not.
Posted by Ghassan Karam | January 17, 2011, 5:20 pm“If you hate Israel and is hell bent on its destruction”
The Jewish and Palestinian populations under Israeli authority are of equal size, but the Israelis demand a Jewish state. Palestinian citizens of Israel face discrimination of all sorts and non citizens in the west bank and gaza are under direct or indirect military authority. I’ve never lived in an ethnically homogeneous state nor will I ever defend the ideal of one. I certainly would not describe any such state as modern or liberal.
“Jim, if you go back to the 1980′s do you consider the bombing of the marine barracks”
Again, lets raise the bar, please?
Nir Rosen:
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2009/10/29/lesson_unlearned?page=0,1
“What about the operations from South Lebanon AFTER Israel withdrew?”
As opposed to Israeli incursions and flyovers.
I’ve never been a patriot and never will, but still this is all a bit much.
Posted by Queequeg AbuKhalil the Jew | January 17, 2011, 5:36 pmI’ve been enjoying the site and discussions for a while.
This is first time I comment because of something I heard on the radio today and that I’ve been slowly realizing in the past week or so: Lebanon, as well as most other Arab countries have failed to create a national identity since their “independence”. And that is the cause of the problems Lebanon is facing, and the fragility of other Arab governments.
If you agree that this is a major contributor to the instability, what is the solution moving forward?
One thing I’ve noticed is that Arabs who have come the closest to having some sort of national identity are the expats. Maybe it’s because they’ve been removed enough from the sectarian/ethnic/tribal wranglings and are left with an allegiance to the larger entity that is their country. Regardless, one solution might be involving these expats more in the process of governing their countries and the formation of that lacking national identity. Unfortunately, from an individual perspective, it’s hard to get the expats to enter such a process.
Any other thoughts?
Posted by Z M | January 17, 2011, 5:47 pmHere’s a translation of an article from al-Akhbar about Walid Jumblatt’s stance vis-a-vis the next prime minister. Translation is courtesy of Mideastwire, which all of you non-Arabic speakers should sign up for if you want to stay on top of the regional media. (Nick did not put me up to plug his service… it speaks for itself).
—
“Junblatt: Sa’d al-Hariri accepted the Saudi-Syrian settlement”
On January 17, the pro-parliamentary minority daily Al-Akhbar carried the following report: “Yesterday evening, Walid Junblatt decided to “spill the beans” that he had been keen on keeping secret from his closest of allies. [Junblatt declared] that Sa’d al-Hariri had accepted the Syrian-Saudi settlement…
“”The decision of the ministers to resign was a political mistake.” This is how the Head of the Progressive Socialist Party, Walid Junblatt, begins to say that Sa’d al-Hariri is the best for the post of PM. Here, the man indicates that the March 14 forces wanted to elect an alternative for Speaker Nabih Birri in 2005, but he refused because Birri was the representative of the Shi’i sect. “Let them appoint Omar Karami, and Sa’d al-Hariri will turn into the only leader for the Sunnis.”
“This point of view that Junblatt holds concurs with a theory adopted by a number of the former opposition figures, and that implies that selecting a PM other than Sa’d al-Hariri will turn the man into an oppressed leader, which will generate a [movement of] solidarity with him. This has started to be used by Ahmad al-Hariri, the Secretary General of the Future Movement, through his calls with the allies of his political movement, and the persons affiliated to it in the Lebanese regions.
“Persons close to Junblatt are saying that he was feeling relaxed yesterday, especially since his Damascus meeting last Saturday with the Syrian President Bashar al-Assad was a successful one. On this point, Junblatt says that his meeting with Al-Assad “was excellent. We went over several issues and we stressed on the importance of the Syrian-Saudi initiative.” He also described the meeting with Hezbollah’s Secretary General Hassan Nasrallah as being excellent as well. When asked about the initiative that he carries, he refuses this nomenclature, and says that he is working on applying the clauses of the Syrian-Saudi initiative “especially that it holds clear and important clauses.”
“Here, Walid Junblatt shows surprise when asked about Al-Hariri’s stand concerning this initiative, especially since he had refused it in New York. Junblatt says: “Sa’d al-Hariri had accepted the settlement.” He also indicates that the speech of Nasrallah yesterday was very positive and that the separation of the tracks of the cabinet [formation] and the indictment “opens a major horizon for the consolidation of the Syrian-Saudi initiative.”
“Junblatt, who had met with Speaker Nabih Birri on several instances in the past few days as well as meeting with Prime Minister Sa’d al-Hariri, adds that “he is working for a middle ground solution and for the formation of a cabinet based on this initiative.” He adds: “I support the settlement and the dialogue rather than the provocation…” Junblatt refuses to go through the calculations that this team or that are talking about, concerning the MPs of his bloc, despite all that is being said about Junblatt’s commitment, in front of Al-Assad, to a specific number of MPs in the event that the agreement with Al-Hariri concerning the clauses of the Syrian-Saudi initiative reaches a blocked wall.
“The sources are saying that the number of the MPs is five, while other sources say it is eight. Other sources still say it is six or seven. And according to one of the affiliated persons to Al-Mukhtara’s leader, eight MPs who belong to the Democratic Meeting, including him of course, will commit to Junblatt’s decision…
“Junblatt also commented on the statement of the Head of the Change and Reform Bloc, MP Michel Aoun, during his press conference yesterday – where [Aoun] had directed an advice at the “socialist” leader – by saying: “We accept the advice of General Aoun. However, we hope that we will not return to the lessons of the Liberation war and the Abolition war [both of which were launched by Aoun against the Syrians and the Lebanese Forces respectively] and their costs on the country.”
“The sure thing is that Junblatt’s latest moves…stem from an old caution and concern that Al-Mukhtara’s leader has concerning a Sunni-Shi’i clash or at least a strong Sunni-Shi’i tension. A funny Druze person tells: “Michel Aoun is sitting in Rabiyeh under the protection of Hezbollah. And Samir Geagea is sitting on the top of a hill under the protection of the Future Movement; while we are sitting in Choueifat, and Bshamoun, and Aramoun, and other places, between the Sunni and Shi’i jaws. If any one of them moves, then we will get hurt.”
“Therefore, Junblatt sets off on his political moves by announcing the need to maintain the connection between the Lebanese people. He reiterates that this connection has never been severed during the days of the civil war. This statement means, according to the socialist leader, that he is still working based on the fact that a one-sided government will automatically lead to a clash and that the Druze sect will pay the price… In this context, Junblatt indicates that Hezbollah’s Secretary General, Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah, had previously told him about his concern about a one-sided cabinet.
“In addition, some with ill intentions indicate that Junblatt cannot overcome Al-Hariri because he will be faced by a real problem, and that is the upcoming parliamentary elections “because any bloc facing Al-Mukhtara’s leader, will lead to him losing his parliamentary seat…” – Al-Akhbar Lebanon, Lebanon
Posted by Qifa Nabki | January 17, 2011, 5:49 pmArticle 69 section 3 of the Lebanese constitution says:
(3) “When the Council resigns or is considered resigned, the Chamber of Deputies is automatically considered in extraordinary session until a new Council has been formed and has gained the Chamber’s confidence.”
Is the Parliament in an extraordinary session or has the Speaker one more time obstructed the Parliament from playing its constitutional role? Has the Parliament been in an extraordinary session ever since the resignation of the 11th minister?
Jumbklatt, just like most of the other Lebanese MP’s speak of democratic institutions but act and describe a totalitarian vision of the world. Someone should remind Mr. Jumblatt that a one colour cabinet is not a threat neither to the Druz nor to any Lebanese citizen if the MP’s live up to their responsibilities and enforce the constitution. The Lebanese constitution, just like any democratic constitution, protects the rights of all the citizens and the groups in the country. It is plainly wrong to keep on using the fallacious argument that “in Lebanon no one party can eliminate the other and so we need a national unity government. That kind of reasoning is the problem since it is simply wrong. In a democracy no one has the right to eliminate the other hand to claim otherwise is pure sophistry.This kind of an argument is nothing else but a reflection of the real undemocratic thinking by Mr. Jumblatt and others. That each of them is a dinosaur is not disputable but the irony is that we keep reelecting them Maybe there is something wrong with us. It is time that we liberate ourselves because our “masters’ have no interest whatsoever in liberating us. Are we up to the task?
Posted by Ghassan Karam | January 17, 2011, 6:24 pm“how do you explain the assassination of Wissam Eid?”
Quite simply.
Wissam Eid, in the course of his investigations, began to discern a stench emanating from within the confines of Alfa and began to pursue leads pointing to the embedded Israeli assets facilitating their penetration of the same. Once Eid’s suspicions were ascertained by those most concerned, the order for the hit was given.
Shall we take a little stroll down memory lanes?:
“A car bomb exploded during the morning rush hour Friday in Beirut’s Hazmiyeh-Chevrolet neighborhood, killing a top police officer who had been probing terrorist bombings.
Lebanese Red Cross officials said three other people were killed in the 10:00 am blast that went off not far from the building housing Alfa Telecommunications Company in the Chevrolet-Hazmieh district. They said as many as 20 people were wounded.”
http://www.cedarsrevolution.net/jtphp/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1216&Itemid=2
Posted by lally | January 17, 2011, 6:24 pmHP,
What about the operations from South Lebanon AFTER Israel withdrew?
What about the rather indiscriminate launching of missiles into Israel?
What about location of missile launchers in the vicinity or within civilian buildings?
If you could provide evidence of any of the above that is not sourced from the IDF, it would be much appreciated
Posted by usedtopost | January 17, 2011, 6:27 pmWowsers Lally…
It took you 3 years to come up with this spin.
Posted by Gabriel | January 17, 2011, 6:33 pmlally & Mo deserve the Golden Globe for spin doctors!
Only brainwashed people with no common sense would go for it though…Try that in the Orange room see how man takers you would have. 😀
…and finally the earth is flat. 😀
Posted by danny | January 17, 2011, 6:51 pmQueequeg AbuKhalil the Jew:
That’s one complicated moniker you’ve got. Almost as complex as Lebanese identity.
A sympathetic savage, a Jew, and an Abu Khalil all in one. Tres Sympathique!
The Lebanese have an equally complex identity crisis. Some of them think they’re Syrians. Others think they’re Arabs. Yet others think they’re Phoenicians.
I never understood why things had to be that complex. All those SSNPers, uber-Arab-nationalists, La Resistance, etc. should just carve up spaces of comfort in Lebanon.
It’s all very doable.
All those people can then forge and create the type of “Arab democracy” that will make Israel shake in the knees.
Then maybe they can leave a little area. A “Monaco” if you will, where the priviledged Gucci, or is it Prada, generation can live it up. King Abdullah can come up to visit and chug down some overpriced Whiskey.
Posted by Gabriel | January 17, 2011, 7:00 pmI kinda like Gabriel’s idea!
Posted by Bad Vilbel | January 17, 2011, 7:05 pmGabriel that was the initial idea. Unfortunately did not fit into Syria’s neither Iran’s, Palestinians nor Israel’s designs for that sliver of land that was zoned for “Disneyland for grown ups”. 😀
Posted by danny | January 17, 2011, 7:30 pmThe Arab speakers among you should enjoy this. It is a great treat that is not to be subjected to political analysis. Listen to the words, the emotions and the delivery. Enjoy
Posted by Ghassan Karam | January 17, 2011, 7:51 pmDanny. That I am labeled as a spinner by a true-believin’ master of the genre is a real badge of something or another.
Gabriel. re “It took you 3 years to come up with this spin.”
Who knew about the Israeli penetration of Alfa 3 years ago? Not moi. If I had known about it back in the day, I would have spun my twist on the tale of Eid’s martyrdom at the time.
Posted by lally | January 17, 2011, 8:55 pmso lally..
Since you seem to know so much enlighten us how would Israel benefit by eliminating Hariri, and all the other pro-western M14 figures? N
Posted by mlk | January 17, 2011, 9:08 pmutp.
Israeli cross-boder actions in their lost northern “security zone” don’t count.
Ironically, the first I heard of Nasrallah’s trustworthiness to abide by his word once given was from Israelis who had dealings with him. Similar things are said about Hamas from Israeli sources in the same general line of work; ie Israel’s defense sector.
Posted by lally | January 17, 2011, 9:13 pmWhy do you guys keep guessing about who did it? Isn’t the guessing game over?
Bellmar should have a good idea by now, and soon we will find out.
At least the skeptics who kept asking for indictments can rest now.
It was amusing to hear HNA say that he did not ask for abilishing the STL. He just wanted his three conditions met. That is all.
Posted by anonymous | January 17, 2011, 9:30 pmMo/utp @95
Here are examples:
– operations from South Lebanon AFTER Israel withdrew?
* the abduction and killing of the Israeli soldiers in Israeli territory which was the spark of the 2006 war
– the rather indiscriminate launching of missiles into Israel?
* clearly established during the 2006 war
(independent press reports, not the IDF. How else did Israeli civilians die?)
– location of missile launchers in the vicinity or within civilian buildings?
* clearly established during the 2006 war and the cause of many a civilian casualty
(how can one find non-military sources for such information? besides, why would the IDF target knowingly civilian targets given the huge backlash against it from the world opinoin?)
No one can argue with the merit, benefit, and laudable execution of all the social programs brought by HA. We are talking here about the politico-military mission which seems to set unattainable targets, not to mention disproportionate to what Lebanon’s involvement should be in the “Arab cause,” even if one accepts that Lebanon should be involved.
One of us is being duped. Time will tell. I trust we both have the intellectual honesty to recognize if we’re wrong once objective evidence is unveiled. I hope we’ll still be alive and well at that time, even if at an old age.
Posted by Honest Patriot | January 17, 2011, 9:48 pmLally.
Not only did you not know about the infiltration 3 years ago. You didn’t even know about it, apparently, at the time of the CBC report.
It seems nor did Hizballah!
Crazy thing, eh?
This is what I don’t get, when it needs to, apparently, HA and their allies can uncover all sorts of things, Israeli infiltration, listening devices, etc. Apparently, the driver for HA’s investigation was that Israel had used its proxies to sell some of its members with phones with dual numbers (I don’t know the full story, but if you get in touch with Nahhas, I’m sure he’ll fill you in).
Why the Highly Patriotic Resistance movement, and its allies were so quick in their investigation is still a curiousity to me.
Contrast this with the Murder of Eid. I mean, since you so graciously reminded us just where he was murdered, I’m curious, didn’t anyone clue in back then that perhaps, just perhaps, the Israelis may have knocked Eid for some juicy findings at Alfa?
I mean they had 3 years!
It seems, at the very least, that the highly Patriotic and very National Resistance Movement only flexes its intelligence powers to catch Israeli spies when it best suits its perceived interests.
You know, just one of those remarkable curiosities of the whole thing.
Posted by Gabriel | January 17, 2011, 10:52 pmHP,
I disagree with one of your premises in your last comment. Israel has no right to bomb civilian areas EVEN if missile launchers are in the vicinity.
But the fact that HA has conducted terrorist operations cannoy be disputed.
-The terrorist bombing of the US Marines in Beirut.
-The terrorist bombing of the French paratroopers also in Beirut.
-TWA flight 847.
-Alkhobar tower bombing in SA.
-The terrorist invasion of W. Beirut in 2008.
-The subversive acts in Egypt icluding the attempt to close the Suez canal in 2009.
-Candidate awaiting nomination for the crime of the century and perhaps the string of crimes that followed.
-continually issuing ultimatums and threats for the purpose of grabbing political power.
Posted by anonymous | January 17, 2011, 10:55 pmAll this talk about Whiskey’s put me in the mood. If only I can find me a hypocrite Saudi Sheikh. We’d hit one of those bars in Al-Hamra.. and just listen…
Posted by Gabriel | January 17, 2011, 11:08 pmanonymous, you are correct about no right to target civilians but I was not claiming it as a right for the IDF. My assumption was that the civilian casualties were unintentional in the process of aiming missile and bomb responses at the origin of the incoming missiles. I said “why would the IDF target knowingly civilian targets given the huge backlash against it from the world opinoin?”
Posted by Honest Patriot | January 17, 2011, 11:29 pmIn the spirit of music and poetry inspiration how ’bout this oldie?
Posted by Honest Patriot | January 17, 2011, 11:33 pmGK@ 89…and All
I am sure that you are “well meaning”…
I will repeat, Lebanese have to read and learn, Covert Ops. 101 to start to understand what is happening to them and to the area in General since 1995…and it’s still Far from Over….That’s all I am going to tell you… It’s all the “Leaking” which you’re going to get for now….
Cheers
Posted by Jim | January 18, 2011, 4:34 am“The irrationality of a thing is no argument against its existence, rather a condition of it….”
Posted by Jim | January 18, 2011, 6:25 amSuperbly said Jim.
I have often heard that it is irrational to believe the HA would knock off Hariri.
Now I have a new line to use against the disbelievers!
Posted by Gabriel | January 18, 2011, 6:51 amHere is a question.
Given that many of you were convinced it was Syria that was behind it.
And given that many of you have stated categorically that it couldn’t have been done without Syria’s knowledge.
And given that many of you still believe that Syria was involved and now that the US has an ambassador in Damascus
If the indictments include no Syrians whatsoever, would you believe that the investigation has been somewhat compromised, politically or would you absolve Syria of guilt?
Posted by usedtopost | January 18, 2011, 7:45 amUTP
It is immaterial whether individuals at a personal level will agree with the final outcome of the STL trials. Remember that afterall an indictment is not the final judgement it is the beginning of the process. But anyway, although we have dealt with this issue before, the direct answer to your question is that no one would have an excuse not to accept the results of the tribunal trials. Individuals , as it is always the case, have the right to disagree with the process but are obliged to accept it and move on. One might not agree with the laws that protect personal proerty, airport scanners,traffic laws etc but yet one is obligated to accept such laws agreed upon by the community. This is essentially the same thing. A judicial process is seminal for the operation of a complex , modern society and until we come up with a different process we have no choice as members of the community except to accept the outcomes of the institutions that we have set up.
Posted by Ghassan Karam | January 18, 2011, 8:15 am“we have no choice as members of the community except to accept the outcomes of the institutions that we have set up.”
You mean the institutions that Sanioura and his cohorts set up, therein lies the problem.
To more substantive matters what do y’all know about Lebanese Army Commander Kahwaji(sp?)? After the m8 groups went to the streets today, what do you think this General’s response will be when the inevitably go to the streets in force? Will he sit back like Sleiman?
Posted by tamer k. | January 18, 2011, 8:28 amGK,
I am not arguing the legitimacy or acceptance by those accused. In response, your argument holds no water – No one is “obliged” to accept the results of the tribunal trials or in fact any trials. I believe that’s what an appeals system is for. But in this case, the tribunal is not based on any law, let alone any “community” accepted law.
But that wasn’t the question.
I would further add, to my questions above that considering many on here have claimed that we should not prejudge any indictments, if Hizballah are accused, does anyone have any misgivings, despite their political allegiance, that Der Speigel knew who was to be indicted in 2008?
Posted by usedtopost | January 18, 2011, 8:37 amMO,
You are pissing in the wind. The process has started and we will stay vigilant until all perpetrators are brought to justice; whoever they may be. OJ Simpson was considered Not Guilty by a jury. That does not mean all the evidence available did not point ONLY to him. Now you can stick your head in the sand and come up with whatever convoluted permutations of archaic questions as you want! Syria was responsible in some shape or form! I will not go over the same discussion over and over again as HA supporters like yourself like to exhaust people with same mundane crap.
Whoever the STL points the finger too and convicts in the court I will agree with. However, mo you seem to be smart man. Wake up and start being so Agatha Christi like. 😀
Posted by danny | January 18, 2011, 8:45 amtamer k,
From naharnet:
2:37pm SANA: Assad met with Qahwaji and discussed with him the role of the army in consolidating security and stability in Lebanon.
Does this answer your question?
Posted by danny | January 18, 2011, 8:50 amlol, Danny, you stay vigilant dude. No one is going to be “brought to justice”.
Posted by usedtopost | January 18, 2011, 9:07 amYes it does, I don’t think he’ll fail Assad either in proving that the army is little more than an impotent police force.
Posted by tamer k. | January 18, 2011, 9:10 amUtP#115
When the funding for the STL stops, so will the work.
The Americans are free to stop their support at any point. They will no doubt choose to exercise that option at some point. The US would then be hypocritical, but that would be nothing new.
How would people here feel if Syria was exonerated despite what people know in their hearts must be true- that it could not have not had prior knowledge- that’s for individuals to answer.
But I don’t doubt they are astute enough to know that whatever the case may be, there is a “political” dimension to the STL.
My personal view is that without the support of the lower level executors of the plan, it would be very difficult to build a case against people on the top. If HA is in fact guilty, what is the likelihood that it will sell out those on top? My feeling: very small.
Posted by Gabriel | January 18, 2011, 9:41 amI still do not understand why QN’s comment section is so full of speculators. You guys think are smarter than the STL and Bellmar.
Just for your information, today Bellmar announced that his evidence is solid and authentic. So keep on recycling your monologue.
And Jim please stop lecturing us about this pathetic Covert Op 101. We have read it and it is bullshit.
Whoever is accused in that indictment will have a lot to answer for. That’s all theer is to it.
Just look at this pathetic maneuvre in Beirut today. Doesn’t that tell you something? Hell, even Obama is saying now these guys won’t behave the way they are behaving excpet in order to hide something.
Posted by anonymous | January 18, 2011, 9:57 am@114
Are you giving eyesight to the Blind… or being Willfully Blind yourself?
Hezbollah had absolutely nothing to do with any assassination in Lebanon.
STL is using Fabricated evidence by CIA/MOSSAD in order to smear Hizbollah, pure and simple. CIA pulled the same trick in the Lockerbie trial…., educate yourself by reading Covert Ops. 101
Posted by Jim | January 18, 2011, 10:02 amHey Jimmie, Why do you keep going in circles?
I said I read it and it is full of bull.
And honestly your way of asking irrelevant
rhetorical is just as unrevealing as that
waste-of-time book. May be it is time for
you to try to read something else.
Posted by anonymous | January 18, 2011, 10:24 amPerhaps you need to learn compartmentalization 101…it will help you get a little further in understanding the predicament of Lebanon’s ugly assassinations.
Posted by Jim | January 18, 2011, 10:29 ammo,
That’s what your buddies in the illegal militia are counting on.:D
Justice has different forms. Beware!
Posted by danny | January 18, 2011, 10:40 amSTL is a charade! The US & Israel have no options left but this feeble attempt to contain Hezbollah & Iran. Read IDF Chief 90 second warning, listen to the stark warning by Hilary Clinton in her address to Brookings Institute in Dec. Review the IDF failed attack on Lebanon in 2006….
Posted by Jim | January 18, 2011, 10:54 amJim;
You seem to be on some potent stuff. Back up your conspiracy theories otherwise you are barking up the wrong tree!
Posted by danny | January 18, 2011, 11:08 amYes, he’s a politician, and a very good one. Yes, he is charismatic (at least to those to whom he offers strength, inspiration, and a way out of the decades of colonial humiliation.)
But yes, he is also a demogogue. He is CERTAINLY not a man of peace and reconciliation (but maybe Lebanon is not ready for such a man, the wounds are too deep).
He is still very much (like 99.9% of political leaders in the world) one who divides the world into “us” and “them”, “good” and “bad”.
After some amount of healing comes to countries in the Middle East, maybe then we will be ready for a truly big hearted, spiritual Middle Eastern leader (someone willing to forgive, to unite opposing factions, to go beyond “us” and “them” – someone like the Dalai Lama, or Nelson Mandela….) Nasrallah is CERTAINLY not like that.
Posted by harvey | January 18, 2011, 11:43 amSTL has conducted its investigation in a way that clearly demonstrates that its reasons for its investigation is NOT to actually discover the truth behind the assassination but to ‘stir’ and cause Sunni vs. Shi’a strife. Thankfully MOST Lebanese from ALL sects are aware of this…. Those who still support the STL are clear agents for US and are only interested in their personal power rather than protecting and uniting Lebanon from out side plots. Only time will tell if the puppets please their puppeteer….
When the people show great disdain for those entrusted with their lives and fortunes and the unrest is palpable and the leaders ignore the rumblings, the results can be devastating….
The Hariri tribunal looks more and more like their goal is to instigate rather than enlighten… In the end, the hype will far overshadow the reality…. Now a judge must decide if there is enough evidence to go to trial? Doesn’t sound like a slam dunk to most people…. Still, it is amusing to see USA/AIPAC infested ZOG…, and Israeli Jews clamoring for justice for an assassinated, despised, and corrupt Arab politician….
STL’s biggest funders and most enthusiastic proponents is the US government, which managed to take time away from its busy schedule occupying/butchering Iraq and Afghanistan to focus on finding justice for a killing in Lebanon….PLLEAAASE
How to broadcast GUILT in Ten easy Lessons?
The Western/Israeli World should give a course….
What a sick, demented, duplicitous, murderous,back stabbing, terrorist-laden/assassins Western/Israeli society…. A true microcosm of the Western world — a world to which and\ oil-greedy, Arab-hating Europe willingly genuflects, and stands ready to sacrifice Lebanon….
Posted by Jhon | January 18, 2011, 11:47 am“Justice has different forms. Beware!”
Oh danny…your imagination does run riot. Will you be bringing justice yourself or just cheering from the sidelines? Either way, whatever you got, bring it.
Posted by usedtopost | January 18, 2011, 11:47 amUTP, I honestly thought that we are past this since each and every one of these issues has been discussed to death. anon is right and I have said it many time yet participated in perpetuating what I complain about: all of these discussions over the past 3-4 years have been a waste of time and energy since all this speculation will not influence the outcome of the process.
Anyway, how can you possibly say that the STL is not based on any law when in fact it is primarily based on Lebanese law with very slight modifications discussed by the Lebanese judges. That accusation is emblamatic of this whole debate. The STL explains in great details how it was formed , how is it structured, what are the duties of each section (chambers, prosecutor/ defense etc…) but it appears , based on the way thatthe process is described, that few have bothered to read this very essential background material prior to their criticism of the institution.
Let me repeat, society is obligated (whether you like it or not :-)) to accept the judgment at the end of the process and that obviously implies appeals. This is not a game, society sets up all of these binding structures in order to function. To set up an elaborate structure and then say at the end that each individual is free to accept or reject the findings will be self defeating wouldn’t you agree? There is a difference between accepting a ruling and agreeing with it. All concerned have to accept the ruling but some will reserve the right to disagree with it and that is the way it should be. ( I disagree with the police that I should ride my motorcycle with a helmet but I must pay the fine if I do.
Posted by Ghassan Karam | January 18, 2011, 11:51 amJim:
You seem quite certain that HA had absolutely nothing to do with any assassination.
Are you a member of the organisation with insider info?
The Israelis fumbled their last assassination in Dubai and had their pictures splashed all over the news.
You’re telling me that after so many assassinations in Lebanon, the Israelis didn’t fumble once.
Remarkable.
If that’s the case, their brilliance should be rewarded!
Otherwise, provide evidence of the fabrication.
Posted by Gabriel | January 18, 2011, 11:53 amUtP:
Say the evidence is convincing enough… what are you going to do?
Continue to support HA, because as As’ad Abu Khalil said, the core HA supporters will be happy to know that HA killed Hariri?
Or will you stand with the sidelines with Danny and cheer on whoever deals with the issue?
Posted by Gabriel | January 18, 2011, 12:02 pm@133
Different theater of operations…, different cut-outs…, local institutional complicity…
Dubai was sloppy for sure.
That’s all the “Leaking” you’re gone get.
Posted by Jim | January 18, 2011, 12:06 pmGabriel,
Only if you provide the popcorn. 😀
In Jim a new star is borne. 😀
Posted by danny | January 18, 2011, 12:14 pmWhy do right wing blogs always get the left wing scrub team for commenters? The answer’s obvious, but still I have to ask.
So I’ll slum a bit more.
Here’s Pat Lang for you Honest Teabagger, making the same points I made above.
http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2011/01/the-lebanon-tribunal.html
Who won the popular vote in the election that brought mini hariri to power? You have one guess.
And still no response to Nir Rosen on Hezbollah.
And again, the opposition represents the majority of Lebanese, that’s something you seem not to accept, or rather you do not ascribe any moral weight of that fact.
Shibley Telhami in The National Interest:
“Remarkably, up until this point he has survived the tensest moments of Shia-Sunni tensions in the Middle East. Even as sectarianism was particularly pronounced in Iraq and Lebanon, Nasrallah managed to retain his popularity in Sunni-majority Arab countries like Jordan and Egypt. And even as he entered into a duel with the Sunni-supported government of Fuad Seniora following the 2006 war, more Arabs in these countries took Nasrallah’s side than that of the Lebanese government. Critical to Nasrallah’s popularity is not only his seeming effectiveness in dealing with Israel—which remains critical—but also a projection of himself as an Arab nationalist, as a Lebanese nationalist, even as he also advocates for his own Shia community. This image would inevitably come under assault if evidence is presented implicating his group in the Hariri assassination—which is why he took steps to preempt this possibility week”
Posted by Queequeg AbuKhalil the Jew | January 18, 2011, 12:16 pmLooks to me as if someone hung a fruit low and easy to grasp….
Posted by Jim | January 18, 2011, 12:17 pm“You’re telling me that after so many assassinations in Lebanon, the Israelis didn’t fumble once.”
@ this point we don’t know who what or how fumbled, because none of us are privy to the evidence in Bellmere’s report.
What is clear is that based on previous reports released by Mehlis is that the investigation has fumbled many times by using fabricated evidence to accuse certain individuals and countries without a shred of evidence, fumbled by selling evidence on the open market, and fumbled by holding 4 generals in detention for political aims.
Moreover, just pure speculation on my part but if indictment is based on accusations coupled with telecom data similar to what was already present in the CBC report than this tribunal will be the biggest fumble of all.
Posted by tamer k. | January 18, 2011, 12:19 pmA society is judged by the respect that it hasto its own laws and in particular its own constitution, the most valuable document to guide all acts in the state.
The Lebanese constitution makes it very clear in Artcle 69 section 3 which I quoted yesterday, that as soon as the cabinet is declared resigned then the Parliament goes into extraordinary session. Is the Lebanese Parliament/Chamber of deputies in an extraordinary session and if not why not. What I find to be astounding is that no one seems to have even considered this constitutional law. Again , if I am right, then we have demonstrated our total lack of respect for the document that we are expected to hold sacred. In this case there is no ambiguity and so there is no need for any judicial interpretations: The moment the cabinet resigns then the parliament is considered to be in an extraordinary session. Why isn’t it ? Where is the Speaker who is expected to make sure that all of these constitutional provisions are adhered to? Where is the President who has taken an oath to uphold the law? What about the other members of the Chamber does anyone care? Or are they waiting for marching orders from abroad?
Posted by Ghassan Karam | January 18, 2011, 12:20 pmThey are waiting for marching orders from outside… as usual.
we are likely to see white flag acts of violence that are intended to inflame and lead to a spiral of tit for tat killings/assassinations ( even if one side has to do the killings for both…, exactly as we have seen between 2002/2008!)…
Posted by Jim | January 18, 2011, 12:28 pm“A society is judged by the respect that it has to its own laws and in particular its own constitution”
“And is, then, all which is just pious? or, is that which is pious all just, but that which is just, only in part and not all, pious?”
Plato is good sometimes.
The Lebanese constitution is not democratic, and sectarianism is endemic to the political scene. Compromise is a necessity, and only ideologues stand in the way.
I’m left to assume you defend the ideological modernism of the Turkish military over the modernity of the AKP.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Posted by Queequeg AbuKhalil the Jew | January 18, 2011, 1:47 pmWhy am I not surprised that one more time Queequeg AbuKhalil the Jew , puts the wrong spin on things:-)
If one does not agree with an accepted part of the law or constitution then one work in order to change it but as long as it is the law then no one is above it.
All the Lebanese parties, bare none, regale us on an almost daily basis about their respect and fondness of the constitution when no one does much to actualize that respect.
But whether some provisions of the constitution are secatrian or not , not withstanding, the issue that is at stake presentlyis a very simple legal procedure and yet no one on both sides has paid any attention to it.
Posted by Ghassan Karam | January 18, 2011, 2:03 pmI think this is a fair scenario to ask a question about. Let’s say the year was 2004/2005 and Nabih Berri or even on the other side Amin Gemayal was killed in a massive car bomb from unknown perps. Would the world want to investigate who, what or why was behind this hypothetical assassination?
Posted by tamer k. | January 18, 2011, 2:05 pmGhassan, 142,145
“A society is judged by the respect that it has to its own laws and in particular its own constitution, the most valuable document to guide all acts in the state.”
As true as this statement is, I’d add the following:” A society is judged by the nature of its laws and constitutions”
Societies which desired, and achieved changes, didn’t have to obey and respect the laws of their countries, while these laws were in place. None of the revolutions that succeeded, or failed for that matter, around the world ever respected the laws and constitutions of their countries; In fact, people revolt to change those laws in non democratic countries.
Although I’m an advocate of law and order, one can’t always expected to obey laws which you can’t be changed in a non democratic and corrupt political system.
The point I’m trying to make, is that this is an issue that needs to be examined further, and not be treated as black and white issue.
I can, and totally agree with you if we’re talking about a democratic society where changes can be achieved through elections and other democratic means, but when we’re talking about either totalitarian or non democratic societies, then “This respect of laws” is open for debate.
Posted by The Prophet | January 18, 2011, 2:44 pm“Just when we needed an angry black Obama,” he began, his arm perched jauntily on the podium, “we didn’t get one.”….. the “Cheney-Bush years” we see little difference between that period and the Obama administration…….. U.S. foreign policy had been hijacked by a cabal of neoconservative “crusaders” in the former vice president’s office and now in the special operations community….”What I’m really talking about is how eight or nine neoconservative, radicals if you will, overthrew the American government. Took it over,” . “It’s not only that the neocons took it over but how easily they did it — how Congress disappeared, how the press became part of it, how the public acquiesced….” nothing has changed….
Posted by Jhon | January 18, 2011, 2:47 pmGhassan,
You’re still sitting here wondering why our constitution isn’t respected? After all these times where it’s been repeatedly torn to shreds? Come on man!
What constitution? That piece of paper that Berri, Suleiman and Hariri use to wipe their asses with?
That constitution that only about 3 Lebanese citizens can actually quote or recite a single line from?
There is no Lebanese constitution. These bozos make up “rules” as they go along and then inform us after the fact. One-time presidential extensions (only it was really 3 times). Electing an army commander president. And those are only few examples.
I’m picturing a football match, where 22 players from 2 different teams stroll on to the pitch, proceed to start kicking a ball around (with no ref) and then the following scene unfolds:
*Blue Player kicks ball out of bounds.
Red Player: “Out! Out!”
Blue player: “I get 10 points for kicking it out of bounds.”
Red: “Huh? That’s new!”
Blue: “Well, it’s a one-time only rule.”
Red: “Ok. Fine”
*Red grumbles and takes ball back to center.
…More kicking…red scores a goal…
Red: “Goal! Goal! 10 points for me!”
Blue: “Goals are one point. Besides, you should forfeit your goal cause my team won’t be happy.”
Red: “So? What do I care? I scored a goal.”
Blue: “But think of our unity as players! You need to give up your goal for the sake of everyone.”
Red (pouting) “Nuh uh!”
Blue: “I was being nice. But really, don’t provoke me. I have a gun!”
Red: “I won’t succumb to threats! I scored a goal. Why don’t we have a referee to rule on these things?”
Blue: “Referees are Zionists and will advance the agenda of Israel!”
Red (scared): “Oh…No I didn’t mean that!”
Blue: “So…about that goal….will you forfeit?” *reaching menacingly to his side where a gun may be hidden….
cut scene. 2 minutes later. Post-game press conference.
Red: “We have decided to forfeit our goal in the interest of the purity of the game of football and to avoid any kind of friction between our two teams.”
Reporter: “Excuse me. But isn’t the whole point of playing a match of football to have some kind of healthy friction between 2 teams?”
Red: “Those are western imperialist values that do not apply here in our culture! Wallaw! We refuse to let the Zionists sow discord between our brotherly football teams!”
Posted by Bad Vilbel | January 18, 2011, 2:58 pmNot to confuse readers with my identity, I’ve unintentionally used different spelling(such as prophett, prophet, The prophet, and PROPHETT) which have landed my comments in moderation.
To make it easy for QN and everyone else, I would like everyone to know that I will only use “The prophet”.
Sorry for any confusion.
Posted by The Prophet | January 18, 2011, 3:02 pmTamer @141
You’ll have to excuse me a little. I am not as intelligent as the other posters on this site.
I like to deal with 1 issue at a time, because that’s all my brain can handle.
I didn’t ask Jim if the STL fumbled. I asked him if Israel fumbled.
Unless you’re of the school of thought that Israel=STL, the question is a different one.
We already know where Jim stands… he believes the reason Israel’s fumblings were not discovered is because they got institutional support from within Lebanon. So he believes Mar 14th, or elements thereof are actively working for Israel.
Is this where you stand as well.
Posted by Gabriel | January 18, 2011, 3:12 pmHere’s what the STL is saying,
http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/NewsDesk.nsf/getstory?openform&7AEC30D9F7B1C111C225781C0046DE34
And Bellmar also looks cool in this picture,
http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/NewsDesk.nsf/getstory?openform&623E6E3539BB4F01C225781C0035E9A8
And also remember that the sky is blue, no matter what Nahhas tries to paint.
Posted by anonymous | January 18, 2011, 3:23 pm@ Gabriel
my point was that at this point despite the media leaks, and Hezbollah’s actions we don’t know if the STL is going to accuse Hezbollah, Syria, or Israel for that matter. Therefore we don’t know who fumbled!!!
But based on its actions and leaks the STL is an international failure, and because it has “fumbled” so many times it has discredited itself, the hole is too deep, Bellemare is a victim of his predecessors failures.
Posted by tamer k. | January 18, 2011, 3:27 pmBV
The fact that we have never respected the constitution but yet we have not modified it and the pols keep talking as if it matters until it doesn’t does not mean that they should not be reminded of the illegal and fatal errors that they are committing.
BV, you know that we are saying the same thing but in different ways. I honestly do not think that it can possibly get to be worse than this. Not one of the 128 clowns has raised the constitutional issue that they are obliged to go into an extraordinary session as soon as the cabinet resigns and that the extraordinary session is to last until the new government wins a vote of confidence. This means that they are supposed to be living at the Parliament for the next 6 months or whatever it takes instead of waiting for instructions from Damascus. Jedda … But what is worse is the behaviour of the Speaker who is supposed to keep a watchful eye on these matters. (President Suleiman cannot be seriously expected to defend a constitution that he took an oath to defend since his election was unconstitutional. The guy should resign if he has any respect for the document that heis expected to defend.
And then there is the press. Where is this free press? It does not exist for the simple reason that each and every one of them is bought by a political group. Each rag9 with the possible exception of Al Akhbar) is a mouth piece for a foreign country. The math is very clear, some do not sell a few hundred copies a day. I believe that the largest circulation is only 10,000 a day. So how do they manage topay the bills? Its a no brainer sell yourself for thirty of silver. There can never be a functioning robust economy without a healthy and independent media.
Posted by Ghassan Karam | January 18, 2011, 3:33 pmThose who are afraid of justice keep bad mouthing the STl. That is all they have left in their pocket.
Just remember the sky is blue no matter what.
وفي السياق نفسه، أجري وزير الخارجية الإيراني بالوكالة علي أكبر صالحي محادثات الليلة الماضية في تركيا مع نظيره التركي أحمد داود أوغلو تناولت الشأن اللبناني خاصة.
في الأثناء، كشف اجتماع استشاري عقده وزراء الخارجية العرب مساء الاثنين بمدينة شرم الشيخ المصرية على هامش التحضيرات للقمة العربية الاقتصادية عن خلافات جوهرية إزاء الأزمة اللبنانية، وهو ما حال دون التوصل إلى موقف عربي موحد بشأن الخطوات التي يجب اتخاذها.
خلافات عربية
ونقلت وكالة “يونايتد برس” عن دبلوماسيين عرب شاركوا في الاجتماع أن نقاشات ساخنة جرت بين الجانب السعودي ممثلا في وزير الخارجية سعود الفيصل والسوري ممثلا في فيصل مقداد نائب وزير الخارجية، بشأن ما يعرف بالتفاهمات أو المبادرة السورية السعودية لحل الأزمة الناشبة على خلفية المحكمة الدولية لمحاكمة قتلة رئيس الوزراء الأسبق رفيق الحريري.
ونقل الدبلوماسيون عن الفيصل قوله لمقداد إن هذه التفاهمات كانت بين الملك السعودي والرئيس السوري، ولا أحد يعلم بها غيرهما حتى وزيرا خارجية البلدين، كما ذكروا أن الفيصل أكد لمقداد أن السعودية سحبت يدها من تلك التفاهمات، ملمحا لعدم استجابة الطرف السوري والجانب اللبناني المضاد لها.
ووفقا ليونايتد برس أيضا شهد الاجتماع تحفظ وزير الخارجية المصري أحمد أبو الغيط على تدخلات أطراف غير عربية في الملفات العربية، مشيرا إلى دور متزايد لتركيا في الملف اللبناني من خلال الاجتماع الذي عقد أمس في دمشق بحضور رئيس الوزراء التركي رجب طيب أردوغان ودعوة تركيا لاجتماع سداسي لما يسمى بلجنة الاتصال بشأن لبنان دعت إليه الحكومة الفرنسية.
Posted by anonymous | January 18, 2011, 3:35 pmGK 154,
Actually you’re not 100% correct. Some of the politicians raised up the constitutional issue regarding the postponment of the consultations which coincided with so-called Damascus meeting. The first such criticism came from the Phalange MP’s. Amine Gemayel also spoke about it. The Future also spoke about it and few others as well, I believe from the LF.
Interestingly enough, President Suleiman called on everyone to abide by the Preamble clause of the Constitution which calls for ‘co-existence’ when he made the postponment.
Posted by anonymous | January 18, 2011, 3:51 pmI have a feeling that what is coming is an attempt to place sanctions on Lebanon in an effort to start a civil war over the attempted smearing/denigrating/labeling/disarming of Hezbollah….because they defeated Israel so badly on the battlefield for two decades. To put it another way: “Let’s you and him fight!”
Since there is a considerable Lebanese Diaspora of not inconsiderable wealth and influence, I have a feeling that this could go spectacularly wrong for USA/Israel and their axis of willing evils…, if the Lebanese as a country, resist the invitation to civil war and instead, together with the Diaspora portray this effort as collective punishment…..
Posted by Jim | January 18, 2011, 4:29 pmIsrael was defeated so badly on the battlefield for 2 decades?
Really?
Last I checked, Israel did not suffer as much as we did. Not even close.
Pretty sure the measure of “victory” is the pain and suffering and destruction. Most of the pain and suffering and destruction (if not all of it) happened on Lebanese soil, to Lebanese people, most of them innocent civilians.
I don’t know what kind of “victory” that is.
But carry on with the slogans and ridiculous fantasy-world interpretations of history. Facts on the ground have never before gotten in the way of spin, why start now.
Posted by Bad Vilbel | January 18, 2011, 4:52 pmI’m not contesting your points. We may have snippets (leaks) of what is to come, but we don’t know the details. We don’t even know what this pre-judgement phase will produce (who knows, maybe everyone will pack their bags and leave).
But I am in awe by the people who say they know for certain that HA had nothing to do with it (and usually follow this up with… and if they are… they are being framed).
Posted by Gabriel | January 18, 2011, 5:06 pmGabreil,
The same people who were certain five years ago that the Syrians, Lahoud and the four officers were behind the assassination of Hariri,are the same people who are certain today ,that HA did it.
This whole investigation has taken many turns and curves, many people lost faith in this credibility of the whole process. Don’t be surprised two years from now, If you and me arr indicted,lol
Don’t be surprised when people doubt
Posted by The Prophet | January 18, 2011, 5:19 pmanon #156,
The conatitutional issue that I have been raising for 3 days goes even beyond the consultations. I must have not made myself clear. Let me try again:
Article 69 Section 3 of the Lebanese constitution spells out very clearly what needs to be done when the cabinet resigns:
“(3) When the Council resigns or is considered resigned, the Chamber of Deputies is automatically considered in extraordinary session until a new Council has been formed and has gained the Chamber’s confidence.”
Note that the Chamber is automatically in extraordinary session that lasts as long as it takes for a new cabinet to win confidence. Why isn’t the camber is this extraordinary session? Why is it that none of the 128 MP’s has lived up to his/her constitutional duties? Where is the Speaker regarding this issue? What about the President? And above all where is the press, the fourth estate? Not to mention the Constitutional council? Has everybody in the Lebanese government abdicated their responsibilities again.
I have already contacted the Lebanese Parliamentary web site but to no avail thus far.
Once we allow them to neglect their constitutional duties or once we do not object when they pick and choose what suits them in the constitution then we become part of the problem. We acquiesce to the crime/wrong doing.
Posted by Ghassan Karam | January 18, 2011, 5:22 pmProphet,
Close to six years ago any commonsensical person would have surmised that Syrians were behind the assassination and following bombings and continuous assassinations…
Currently I am proud to be one of those who still assert Syria is behind the assassinations. As for HA; the suspicion was always on them. The scope of the operation and required logistics and preparation was so big that only a person who was deaf and mute and blind would not have concluded that in an area totally under mukhabarati and HA militia operatives even a mosquito needed a flying permit. Now I think we had enough of this Maytag spins.
Justice will prevail. Mughnieh I am certain can attest to that!
Posted by danny | January 18, 2011, 5:35 pmYa Nabi:
It’s not the doubting that perplexes me. I think it’s natural for people to doubt/question.
(On the other end of the spectrum, I don’t fully understand those who say it’s a done deal. Nothing is a done deal until we all hear what the indictment has to say, and see the evidence in its entirety. I for one, want to understand how the phone records were first associated with some Palestinian/Sunni extremist group, and now are associated with HA).
But if we are playing these games of Hypotheticals. Let us assume that tomorrow, the US strikes a huge deal with Iran. They become buddy-buddies. And the cost of the deal is that the US puts pressure to fold the STL…. and everything stops.
Wouldn’t everyone want to have closure on the issue?
(On the point of me and you being indicted… don’t joke! There’s a few people here whose mental stability concerns me a little. I wouldn’t put anything past them!).
Posted by Gabriel | January 18, 2011, 5:38 pmGabie,163
I agree with you that a deal could be struck some time down the road. I’ve said this ,on this site before, that The united states would only allow for a deal to be struck after the indictment is out, and has done the damage it was designed to do.
Remember, in the states, an n American prosecutor would not ever make a plea bargain unless He secures an indictment.
I personally not interested so much in the details of the evidence, because I’m of the opinion that the STL was established to be used as apolitical tool. It won’t be too long before we see the seeds of a deal. I just hope by the time a deal is struck, we still have a country intact enough to enjoy it.
As for you and me being “indicted” , You are right, I should not joke like this anymore, I already have people accusing of many things ,lol
anon,
It’s amazing how the “violations “of our constitution became a big concern to you, and others, once the cabinet collapsed.
I didn’t sense your concern for the constitution all this time when everyone was stepping on the constitution, from the president to the PM, the speaker, and everyone else in the Lebanese.
Did you know that the agreement, PM Siniroa signed with the UN, to establish the international tribunal was not constitutional?
As a matter of fact nothing is constitutional anymore. Everyone gets constitutional approval from his sect’s religious institution in Lebanon.
The shiia decide that only Berri can be speaker of the parliament(NO one else is “qualified “ to represent the shiia.lol), The Muftie of the Sunni sect already gave us the results of the anticipated consultations supposedly done by the president, By declaring that Hariri,and only Hariri can represent the Sunnis, otherwise ,the sect’s rights are ignored. Only poor Christians can’t choose who fills in the president’s post.
I think it’s more honest if we debate our views without using the constitution to prove or disprove something. We sound very comical when we do that. Lol
The tribal debate is more genuine, lol
Posted by The Prophet | January 18, 2011, 5:56 pmLebanon is history’s washing machine.round and round we go again and again.Scrape away all the labels, the grand narratives, and at the bottom of the barrel you will find identity crisis. Where did Lebanon come from ,what is it? and where is it going?…it will always be existentialist…and unlike Tunisia, or Sudan or even Iran, there is no unity for any unanimous partakings.So there it thrives in the centre dancing with fire to the left and to the right, to the East and to the West but as soon as it nears to the edge, the fire threatens to engulf it.
Pardon my 2 cent poetry,theres nothing left to say but to brood.
Posted by Maverick | January 18, 2011, 6:25 pmProphet 164,
I know you’re talking to anon.
But I hope you’re not lumping some of the rest of us in that comment.
Some of us have been ranting and raving about the rule of law and the constitution (or lack thereof) for a good 6 years now…
Posted by Bad Vilbel | January 18, 2011, 6:37 pm@ Maverick 165
If only there was a “like” button on QN 🙂
Posted by PeterinDubai | January 18, 2011, 7:16 pmBV,166
It wasn’t my intention to pick on any one in particular(except for anon.lol .jk )
It was simply my frustration with the whole discussion, than any one in particular.
I just find it irrelevant(and self-serving) to concentrate on the constitution and the lack of respect for the law when it comes to the STL discussion,and the indictment thereafter, at a time the whole country is lawless.
Posted by The Prophet | January 18, 2011, 7:25 pmprophett #168
May I suggest that your frustration is misplaced. Ignoring a law that a society pretends to abide by without any objection is possibly the worst thing that we can do. The process is crucially important. One can object to Lahouds second term but one is also forced to admit that at least it was done right. They did amend the constitution prior to his election.
In the case of Suleiman no one either bothered to amend the constitution or even rationalize a possible explanation that would make him eligible.
In this case it is even worse since this is only a simple procedural issue that all parties are expected to abide by . Furthermore this simple procedural issue does not favour any of the two camps, it only stipulates that the Parliament is to be in an extraordinary session until the new cabinet wins the confidence of the Chamber.
If you do not think that this is important then you do not favour any semblence of an organized society or a social contract.
I doubt it whether there is anything that speaks as loudly about the values and mores of a society than the respect it shows to its laws and the way it treats its underprivileged.
Posted by Ghassan Karam | January 18, 2011, 7:51 pmProphet.
I understand your frustration. But as Ghassan points out, I am of the opinion that it’s the backwards way of looking at it. “We have bigger problems right now, so let’s not worry about law and constitution.” is a backwards argument, imo.
I think it all goes back to that. I think we are where we are because as a people, we have no respect for the rule of law. And that goes from the ground up. From utter lack of respect for the law in the citizen’s daily life (traffic stops, trying to cut in line, etc.) all the way to the top. The complete disregard for the constitution practiced by the leaders is a reflection of what we let them get away with. We don’t care about laws in our every day lives, so we don’t even think that this should apply to the leaders either.
STL or no STL. It all goes back to the rule of law and holding people and leaders accountable.
Posted by Bad Vilbel | January 18, 2011, 8:06 pmGhassan,
Months ago, you mentioned the constitutional questions, which you had about Suleiman’s election, and I agreed with you completely.
If following the process, satisfies you, that is fine by me, but that does not change the fact that the constitution and the amendments are custom DESIGNED.
With Lahoud, the process was followed according to the “law”, and the extension went through, yet the result was catastrophic… Why did, then, most people say his election was not constitutional? And what difference did its constitutionality make anyway?
Don’t misread my comment as being Anti-constitution and Anti – law. I think our problems go way beyond a text book, or the technicality of following the book. Bashir Gemayel’s election was “constitutional”, did that make it right? Bin Ali didn’t break any constitution law all these year; He simply amended them to serve himself.
Every Arab regime has its own constitution, and they all abide by it. Bashar was elected constitutionally, so will Gamal Mubarak, Is that enough to accept the result? Why do we complain then, all Arab dictators follow their own custom made constitutions. The difference is we, in Lebanon keep amending the constitutions to suit different people at different times; they do it to serve one person.
I really don’t care about the text of the constitution , as much as I care about the spirit and the intentions of the text. This is where my frustration comes in.
My critical comment about the constitution and the discussion of it there after, had nothing to do with the camps in Lebanon. I find it self serving to carry the constitution like flag when it suits some (or serves their argument), yet ignore it when it does not.
Posted by The Prophet | January 18, 2011, 8:40 pmProphet said:
“With Lahoud, the process was followed according to the “law”, and the extension went through, yet the result was catastrophic… Why did, then, most people say his election was not constitutional? And what difference did its constitutionality make anyway?
Now please stop this ungentlemanly and indecent line! If you believe that the extension was done according to the law…then you are an idiot! I apologize for using that term. You seem to think we are idiots as the election was more than documented was under threats of Bashar and tens of Lebanon’s intellectuals and leaders were assassinations after that!
Posted by danny | January 18, 2011, 8:52 pmDanny,
I think that’s the Nabi’s point.
On paper, it was constitutional, but really does that matter? The constitution was amended to suit whomever at the time. (I don’t know if he agreed with this particular constitutional amendment or not).
At least in the spirit of his argument, I agree with the Nabi.
Posted by Gabriel | January 18, 2011, 9:12 pmYears ago, the Liberal party of Canada got embroiled in a “Sponshorship” scandal where tax-payer money was diverted to Liberal friendly businesses.
They were booted out of office, and haven’t been able to come back in since.
The court cases went pretty high up the hierarchy, but it didn’t touch the very top.
I try to picture a situation today if Jean Chretien were to be knocked out. The country would be outraged.
And you wouldn’t have Jims or Moby Dicks swinging by opinion forums saying that “well, he wasn’t liked much, and he was a crook anyways”.
That this type of phenomenon happens here is remarkable. How many Moby Dicks and Jims are out there in Lebanon, arguing the same type of line?
If its a lot, then BV, GK, don’t hold your breaths. Nothing good will come out of Lebanon for many years to come.
I don’t know if the “STL” was constitutional or not. I am not interested much in Lebanon’s constitution. What I do know is that if this issue is not resolved in a truthful manner, there will be no hope for Lebanon for many years to come.
Everyone can come sit at the table, smile and play nice. But you’ll end up with as duplicitious, insincere and hypocritical system as you have today.
Since April 2009, almost 100 people have been arrested on charges of “spying for Israel”. And yet no information has been forthcoming from the “Opposition” on who murdered 5-10 (I don’t know the number) high profile individuals.
The absurdity of it all cannot be any more stark.
Posted by Gabriel | January 18, 2011, 9:24 pm“On paper, it was constitutional, but really does that matter?”
Of course it does. If constitutionality does not matter then what does? It is laws that differentiate us from the law of the jungle.
This does not mean that all laws are fair or just but as long as a law is in existense it has to be enforced and obeyed otherwise members of society have an obligation to change it through a prescribed procedure. Civilized society does not function if its members are to do whatever they want whenever they will. If laws are not important then why have them?
Respect for the law, the willingness to abide by it and the presence of a well defined procedure to change it are the hallmark of a civilized society. It is only in dictatorships and authoritarian systems that laws do not matter. In democracies laws are the only thing that matters.
Posted by Ghassan Karam | January 18, 2011, 9:53 pm“If its a lot, then BV, GK, don’t hold your breaths. Nothing good will come out of Lebanon for many years to come.”
I think most of us came to that sad conclusion.
Thus the name Qifa Nabki.
Halt! and let us… down a Scotch Whisky 🙂
Posted by V | January 18, 2011, 10:49 pmGaby,
There’s nothing constitutional in amending the constitution under the threat of the gun (which Bashar did to Hariri & WJ…and delivered through his threat).
Sorry Ghassan I do accept ant changes that were made under the threat of death!
Posted by danny | January 18, 2011, 11:40 pmDanny,172
Thank you so much,
It is obvious that you jumped into this debate without understanding the merit of the discussion.
Taking a sentence out of contest is not intellectually honest.
The Lahood example was used to show that, following the constitution and rule of law, can be used for the wrong purpose. An election or any political process isn’t only justified by its constitutionality.
I’d advice you to read the previous exchange regarding this subject before you call people idiots.
Posted by prophett | January 19, 2011, 12:10 amGhassan,
I’m not sure why feel compelled to give the textbook response, all the time.
Reading your retort (and I hate speaking for others…aka Nabi) but it would seem that you think the Nabi and I are two characters that popped out of The Jungle Book… devoid of any appreciation of the law, etc.
Neither I, (nor, in my reading of him, the Nabi) are in disagreement with anything you’ve said. We both agree the constitution ought to be respected. We both agree the rule of law ought to be followed.
But we’ve established already that Lebanon falls under the category of a Banana Republic. Hence when you make a statement like It is only in dictatorships and authoritarian systems that laws do not matter., you really ought to add Banana Republic to the list.
Danny appears to be missing the point, again, when he asserts that the “constitutional change” wasn’t much of a change because it was under duress, and extralegal. The point is that something, on paper, changed. And just because it’s made its way into the “Paper” and called a “Constitution”, doesn’t make it any more respectable.
To drive the point further, Nabi quoted another pertinent example: the Syrian “constitution”. One exists, no?
People nowadays throw words like “democracy” and “constitution” left right and center, without a real appreciation for what they mean and what they involve.
The Nabi’s point was a basic one. He didn’t disagree with your core point, but simply stated that in this Banana republic, “respect” for the constitution hasn’t been exercised in the past, and this has in effect cheapened the meaning of “constitution”. And given this reality, I think he was spot on, there is no reason to frame the debate on current events in terms of constitutions and disrespect of constitutions.
Posted by Gabriel | January 19, 2011, 12:59 amGabriel,
Lebanon is not only a Banana republic but might qualify for a failed state, a dysfunctional one and even a RIP. But that is not the issue. One of the reasons that Lebanon is all the above is due to its lack of respect for the constitution. If Lebanon is to change then it cannot do that by doing more of the same that it did in the past. It must change its ways. But it will not change its ways if its own citizens do not expect it to.
Note also that at one point you say that you are not disagreement with me on this constitutional issue but then you proceed to say that in this Banana republic there has never been any respect for the constitution. Shouldn’t that mean that it is time to demand that the constitution guides future action?
Posted by Ghassan Karam | January 19, 2011, 1:27 amGabriel,
“Danny appears to be missing the point, again, when he asserts that the “constitutional change” wasn’t much of a change because it was under duress, and extralegal. The point is that something, on paper, changed. And just because it’s made its way into the “Paper” and called a “Constitution”, doesn’t make it any more respectable.
Please tell me you have not had a bar Scotch…I am more of a Single malt person. You mean if anything that is coerced under duress is OK…Then I have no further discussion with you.
Nabi,
“Taking a sentence out of contest is not intellectually honest.
The Lahood example was used to show that, following the constitution and rule of law, can be used for the wrong purpose. An election or any political process isn’t only justified by its constitutionality.
Huh? Please explain what following the constitution means to you? Does Syria imposing its will with death threats to amend the constitution reflect your freedom of choice?
Do you know that the constitution had to be AMENDED UNDER THE GUN TO EXTEND LAHOUD’s TERM???
If yes please explain your rationale.
Lakhayem.
Posted by danny | January 19, 2011, 1:34 amGK:
Shouldn’t that mean that it is time to demand that the constitution guides future action?
Yes. Yes. Yes. And may I add that it was particularly laudable that you took the time to write to the Lebanese parliament. People should follow your footsteps.
Danny:
It’s moments like these that I momentarily disavow my staunch atheism and cry, Jeezus, Ya M7amad, Krishna, “Help Me”.
Posted by Gabriel | January 19, 2011, 1:41 amI haven’t been holding my breath for a long time now.
I’ve been the predictor of doom for quite some time when it comes to Lebanon.
I’m quite convinced that until the Lebanese people themselves get their heads out of their collective asses (and this will require hell freezing over), there really is no hope for that godforsaken “country”.
Posted by Bad Vilbel | January 19, 2011, 2:38 amUTP 115
“If the indictments include no Syrians whatsoever, would you believe that the investigation has been somewhat compromised, politically or would you absolve Syria of guilt?”
Indictments are made only when there is sufficient evidence to satisfy the prosecutor that a conviction is possible. No indictment means guilt cannot be proven beyond reasonable doubt; it does not necessarily mean that there is no guilt. I suspect – we’ll have to wait and see – that the investigation lowered its sights, moving from the early public focus on security authorities (Syrian and Lebanese) to people lower down the chain. Franklin Lamb has another piece of fantasy in Al Manar about alleged plans to indict Khamenei. I suspect indictments will stick to figures much, much closer to the ground.
Posted by Jonathan | January 19, 2011, 7:51 amThere is no excuse for the Lebanese people to hide behind so-called failed state or other epitaph in order to absolve themselves of the guilt for the lack of respect for law.
After the destructive 30 year civil war, one would assume that the people must have learned the benefits and values of living in a law abiding environment.
The presence of Para-military organizations such as HA is the primary reason which encourages people to challenge the rule of law. It also creates an environment in which the use of force and the issuance of threats and ultimatum as the norm in conducting politics.
It is unfortunate that it took such horrible crimes as the political assassinations to create a tribunal like the STL, which is a reminder to everyone of the absence of the rule in a country such as Lebanon.
Posted by anonymous | January 19, 2011, 9:19 amWhile Berri continues to idiotically insist on his magic formula,
http://www.14march.org/news-details.php?nid=MjcwNTgz
One S is openly saying Berri is practically a ‘fool’,
http://www.14march.org/news-details.php?nid=MjcwNDgz
Posted by anonymous | January 19, 2011, 9:26 amThe Transparent Cabal…. And the hardline Likudnik position is to destabilize and fragment Israel’s enemies to enhance Israeli security…. The neocons similarly advocated such an approach in their “Clean Break” agenda, which did not emphasize democratization…. In short, from the perspective of the neocons and the hardline Likudniks, the instability and the “shadow of civil wars….” resulting from the USA’s infamous White House Murder INC, in the Levant between 2002 and 2008…., with more to come soon…., the invasion of Iraq, Afghanistan, the War on Lebanon in 2006 and STL shenanigans continue unabated…. in order to foment more civil wars, mayhem and Chaos from Quetta to Darfur….Justice and all the Rhetoric from DC is for the Gullible Sheeple, if any urgent Justice is needed in this world, it is a ICC tribunal for ALL the millions of people massacred by the US and Israeli armies…..
Posted by Jhon | January 19, 2011, 11:02 amYou are right Jhon the Maronite- Druz massacres were engineered by the Zionists and their American lackies 🙂
Posted by Ghassan Karam | January 19, 2011, 11:50 amGK,
Both Syria and Israel were punished (one way or another) for interfering in Lebanese affairs.
Will Iran meet a similar fate?
I doubt it.
Posted by Akbar Palace | January 19, 2011, 12:25 pmIt’s the American Killers which need to be punished in Lebanon before anybody else. All the troubles of Lebanon are Made In USA, the crumbling Evil Empire of thugs, murderers and assassins.
Posted by Jhon | January 19, 2011, 12:42 pmIsrael invaded Lebanon in 82 creating Havoc, destruction, suffering and Death on a massive scale.
Then it overstayed its Welcome until it was FORCED out in 2000 by the Valiant Nationalist Lebanese Resistance.
The Resistance of Hezbollah deserves our utmost respect to say the least.
Low and behold, USA and ISRAEL attack Lebanon AGAIN in 2006, creating more Havoc, misery and more Death, and were DEFEATED by the same honorable Lebanese, even if you don’t like it.
After an agreement was reached for cessation of Hostilities in 2006, after 34 days of War, the Israeli IDF war criminals dropped over 2 Million Cluster bombs on South Lebanon…., one of which exploded today killing a young man and maiming 3 others. Israel refused repeated demands for the maps of these BOMBS. Now, All you can find to say about all this long list of grievances is that you want peace at any cost…., just like the Assad Mafia in Syria…?
If I were the President of Lebanon, I would DEMAND from the international community those MAPS of IDF Cluster bombs before meeting any Foreign official on any matter whatsoever, and I would demand from ALL ministers and PM do the same, no matter what this position entails or whatever time it takes…before even contemplating any FAKE “Justice” for one man by CIA’s Tool, STL or PEACE with the USA/Israeli MONSTERS….who are actively planning mew wars and more for Lebanon…..
Posted by Jhon | January 19, 2011, 12:54 pmanonymous @185,
VERY VERY WELL SAID!
Posted by Bad Vilbel | January 19, 2011, 1:42 pm“All the Lebanese trouble are made in the USA”.
Yes. Because clearly, the people massacring each other in Tel Zaatar, Karantina, Damour, etc. were American.
The people who put a gun to my father’s head on Black September were American.
The people who kidnapped many a good friend of mine during the 80s for being in the wrong part of town were American.
The people who lobbed artillery on West Beirut in 1989 with no warning, at 8am, while many children walked to school. Those were Americans too.
Posted by Bad Vilbel | January 19, 2011, 1:46 pmThose who were doing ALL these things were CIA Proxy Militias paid for by the US MONSTERS, who were actually controlling/paying BOTH sides….
Posted by Jhon | January 19, 2011, 1:55 pmDanny 181,
You insist on missing the point I was making.
Exactly my point, the lahood re –election was orchestrated by the Syrians; by having the Lebanese parliament amend the constitution so that Lahood can be re-elected.
What I was trying to tell Gassan is that the constitutionality of a process has to be evaluated by its merit, not by the technical process, and the respect of the constitution becomes irrelevant. Doing something by cooking up laws to make it constitutionally legal is as bad as doing it without following the constitution.
Ghassan,
I don’t know if it makes a difference if we categorize Lebanon as a failed states or a banana republic. The end result is the same. Failed institutions, corrupt leadership ….…
This whole debate of legality and constitutionality of procedures by Lebanese institutions does not make any sense any more. Amending laws to justify procedures, does not make those procedures respectful.
If you review most procedures in Lebanon, you will find out that, though legally sound, don’t measure up to the merit of the law.
Posted by The Prophet | January 19, 2011, 1:59 pmI apologize for the outburst. It was not cool of me. Sometimes, reading certain things makes my blood boil. I will attempt to reply in a more civil tone.
CIA Proxy Militias? I don’t care who paid who what. I KNEW those people. I don’t know if you lived in Lebanon at the time. But these were your neighbors, your coworkers, people you saw every day. These were not foreigners that materialized out of thin air.
These were Lebanese people who had what we like to call FREE WILL, and who still chose to pick up knives, kalashnikovs turn these weapons on people they saw everyday in their villages and towns.
I am simply sick and tired of the argument that Lebanese had no free will and are somehow these robots controlled by Washington, Tehran or wherever else.
At the end of the day, it was a LEBANESE man (a neighbor nonetheless) who chose to show up at our doorstep with his buddies and point guns at my parents (both of which non-political, non-religious peopel) for being of the wrong sect in that part of Beirut. Nobody FORCED this guy to do what he did. Are you telling me we have no free will?
Cause if that’s what you’re saying, then…well, i have no possible reply to that.
Posted by Bad Vilbel | January 19, 2011, 2:06 pmLet’s keep it clean, friends.
New post coming later today.
Posted by Qifa Nabki | January 19, 2011, 2:11 pmBV
Jhon read “Transparent Cabal” and has been regurgitating mindlessly its main theme about the parallel interests of neocons and Likudniks (without any attributions I might add).
Posted by Ghassan Karam | January 19, 2011, 2:18 pmApologies accepted gracefully, and I agree with you completely in your post @196.
Suffice it to say here that the Cairo agreement of 1969 and the influx of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians/armed by SYRIA and others…and the Geopolitical/Geographic position of Lebanon brought about ALL these calamities one way or another….Meddling by outsiders became inevitable and we were the fuel to the fires…and we still are today….
Posted by Jhon | January 19, 2011, 2:21 pmGHASSAN, Keep the “regurgitating mindlessly” to yourself…
Posted by Jhon | January 19, 2011, 2:24 pm