BEIRUT, Lebanon — Investigators with the Special Tribunal for Lebanon (STL) had a rude awakening yesterday after being attacked by angry Lebanese citizens in the course of a routine information-gathering mission.
Upon visiting a gynecological clinic in al-Dahiyeh — a southern suburb of Beirut and stronghold of the Shiite party Hizbullah — a crowd of angry women attacked the investigators and reportedly stole a briefcase from them. A condemnation of the attack by the Netherlands-based Special Tribunal was echoed by various Lebanese political parties as well as the United States.
The attack “is a deplorable attempt to obstruct justice,” the tribunal said in the statement. “Those who carried out this attack must know that violence will not deter the Special Tribunal for Lebanon, a court of law, from fulfilling its mandate.”
Reports are now emerging that some of the attackers were men dressed as women in full-length burqas, and Future Movement official Mustafa Allouch told reporters that the attack was “a clear message from Hizbullah to the STL.”
Meanwhile, the Hizbullah television station Al-Manar stated that the incident was “a blatant attack by the international investigating commission on a gynecological clinic,” and noted that “the women’s response was spontaneous and firm.”
The Qnion has learned that after receiving medical attention later that day, the STL investigators insisted on continuing with their duties rather than returning to The Hague.
“We weren’t going to let the attack deter us from finishing what we started,” said Geert van Whiffenpoof, the team leader. “We had other places to visit and important information to gather.”
However, the investigators were soon to discover that public opposition to their activities was not confined to the women of al-Dahiyeh.
The first stop the UN team made upon leaving the American University of Beirut Hospital was a small farm on the outskirts of Sidon, in order to question its owner, one Sa’eed Ghadban, about his acquaintance with one of the suspects in the Hariri assassination.
Upon leaving the farmhouse, however, the team encountered a large crowd of animals — cows, goats, horses, sheep, and other beasts — blocking their exit.
“They were really angry,” said Jan van Snurkensnuffle. “They were braying and mooing and quacking. It was actually quite terrifying.”
A flock of chickens charged the investigators who managed to escape unharmed.
Reports are now emerging that some of the attackers were men dressed in animal costumes, and Future Movement official Mustafa Allouch told reporters again that the attack was “a clear message from Hizbullah to the STL.”
For its part, the Hizbullah television station Al-Manar stated that the incident was “a blatant attack by the international investigating commission on a humble farm” and noted that “the animals’ response was spontaneous and firm.”
Upon returning to their hotel that evening, the investigators decided to make a stop at Barbar, a popular local eatery.
“They have the best shawarma I’ve ever had,” gushed Willem Beentrekker. “I love going there after a long hard day’s work.”
Unfortunately, within hours of downing the meal, all three men found themselves waylaid by severe stomach cramps, nausea, and diarrhea. After a long and sleepless night with alternating visits to the hotel bathroom, the three investigators boarded a flight to the Hague this morning.
Future Movement official Mustafa Allouch told reporters again that the indigestion was “a clear message from Hizbullah to the STL.”
For its part, the Hizbullah television station Al-Manar stated that the incident was “a blatant violation of sovereignty by the international investigating commission on proud Lebanese foodstuffs” and noted that “the shawrma‘s response was spontaneous and firm.”
Qifa Nabki 
Ya QN,
I bet you TEN THOUSAND Lebanese Lira that someone’s gonna accuse you of having equated Hizbullah members/followers with pigs.
😉
–MSK*
Posted by MSK* | October 28, 2010, 11:32 amSince 10,000 Lebanease pounds converts to about six dollars that isnt risking too much…
Posted by G | October 28, 2010, 11:42 amG-
That was an Austin Powers moment. Plus, I’m broke right now.
–MSK*
Posted by MSK* | October 28, 2010, 11:47 amI am wondering whether the Shawarma’s response wasn’t really orchestrated by Israeli agents..and if it were, does that mean that Shawarma is actually Israeli!?
Food for thought…
Posted by G | October 28, 2010, 11:56 amOn a more serious note… Any thoughts on the rumors that king Abdullah has been pushing saad harriri to resign immediately?? Only heard it from one source, the credibility of which I question… http://www.debka.com/article/9103/ has anyone heard anything regarding that, or care to share their thoughts??
Posted by Tariq | October 28, 2010, 12:15 pmAre we sure these “women” weren’t really Lebanese men, posing as Israeli agents, disguised as women, in an attempt at sullying HA?
Just saying.
Posted by Bad Vilbel | October 28, 2010, 12:36 pmHearing about the men disguised as women – and the only image that comes to my mind is the “Rocky Horror Show” – The Burka (A.K.A Cloak in “Rocky”) is thrown to reveal the guy dressed in full length Garters, Corset & high heels, singing “I’m Just a Sweet Transvestite..”
Maybe the STL story deserves a musical of its own..
Posted by G | October 28, 2010, 1:00 pmWhat is there to laugh about?
Will the STL be able to obtain the information it wanted? No. Instead of laughing at their predicament and HA’s reaction is anyone in Lebanon prepared to help them get it? Not likely.
Satire as a social tool is great, but when it becomes impotent cynicism it misses the mark in my opinion.
Posted by AIG | October 28, 2010, 1:01 pmGreetings from Beirut,
I have been experiencing spontaneous and firm response from almost anything i have eaten since i arrived not to mention the spontaneous and firm response from all the drivers around me especially when i slow down for pedestrians or stop at a traffic light. 🙂
Posted by V | October 28, 2010, 1:19 pmIt took Obama only 2 years to figure out that Asad was playing him for a fool:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hhFuj6SSVS1WOqeIQ5Fra-Kf_DMw?docId=CNG.157fdb21528f5668b3708d5dd4828a10.291
Posted by AIG | October 28, 2010, 1:57 pmYou’re such a killjoy today AIG. Did you have a shawarma laffa that didn’t agree with you?
Posted by Qifa Nabki | October 28, 2010, 2:00 pmAIG
Take is lightly, any how the STL is presently only good for a good laugh. Is not that what you and every body else here is saying? As things look now STL is early prehistory. Well, more of a very early geological specimen. It is more dead than the Dodo.
Posted by Rani | October 28, 2010, 2:02 pmAIG;
Look me in the (virtual) eye and tell me:
A bunch of HA (probably bearded) guys, dressed as women, stampeding in a Vagina clinic (pardon my French), to snatch a PURSE!!
How can this not be funny?
I mean you can’t invent this kind of shit.
Posted by G | October 28, 2010, 2:03 pmGood stuff as we have come to expect from the Qnion!
Reminds me of Rowan Atkinson and Hugh Laurie in Blackadder (2nd season episode 6):
Posted by mas | October 28, 2010, 2:06 pmSorry for the attitude and yes, you cannot invent this shit. But why can’t anybody in Lebanon muster the activism and conviction to protect the STL investigators?
Posted by AIG | October 28, 2010, 2:23 pmVery funny…
Two questions.
Pigs are not halal…So who were those masked animals? STL is trying to create friction between Israel and HA?
BV; did you get that right?
…and Hassan Nassrallah blurted out that the investigators wanted to know about HA’s girlfriends’ sexual history! Now that is immoral but Mutaa is not!
Posted by danny | October 28, 2010, 2:41 pm[Comment removed. Editor’s note: عيب ولو]
Posted by V | October 28, 2010, 2:58 pmNasrallah just made a televised speech, apparently, denouncing the prying into women’s private lives and of course all the other expected accusations against the STL and a higher level of (virtually un-)veiled threats against anyone in Lebanon collaborating with them.
According to my sister, the narrative involved a request by the investigators for the medical files of thousands of women which, after protests from the Gynecologists, were whittled down to 17 or 18, and other such outrageous claims. I haven’t seen the video so I don’t know how accurate that is, but it’s not surprising that demagoguery-style claims and propaganda would be used through the charming charisma of the Sayyed.
Anyone with a link to the video of the speech? Would be priceless to hear that stated if indeed true. Never mind that phone records or other communications records were likely requested and not medical records.
http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/NewsDesk.nsf/getstory?openform&8B0865996FE46157C22577CA00692E49
Posted by Honest Patriot | October 28, 2010, 3:50 pmI find it amusingly sad (as usual) that not a single person (so-called leaders in Lebanon or commentators anywhere) has said anything about the LAW.
As usual, in Lebanon, the rule of law takes a back seat to opinions and demagoguery about ‘honor’.
The real question here should be: Was this request for medical or phone records a legal request, made through the authorities (a subpoena or equilavent). If so, then neither HA nor anyone else has any right to complain or criticize. A legal investigation is just that: LEGAL. It involves subpeoas of records, made through warrants or otherwise, by the judicial authorities that have jurisdiction over the subject. End of story.
But yeah. I don’t really expect that little detail to be mentioned by anyone, be it the pro-HA crowd or even the anti-HA crowd. Cause we all know Lebanon has never heard of words like “law” or “judicial” or “warrant”…
Posted by Bad Vilbel | October 28, 2010, 4:04 pmHP,
At your service.
http://www.almanar.com.lb/NewsSite/VideoItems.aspx?language=en
Posted by danny | October 28, 2010, 4:08 pmBV,
Don’t ask! I am certain all legal notifications were provided! After all these people did not wander into the Dr.’s office out of the blue! This is another stage and bogus trampoline for Hassan Nassrallah to do his aerobics!
The crap he spewed really does not surprise me. What bewilders me is the obvious state of stupor his believers are in…
Posted by danny | October 28, 2010, 4:11 pmThanks danny, you “da” man!
It was very interesting and instructive. So, indeed my sister was right. SHN (at 14:10 in the video) claims that the investigators asked for the medical (gynecology) files of 7,000 women!! and after the Doctor objected and argued, they settled on 17 or 18, still medical files!
SHN is remarkably suave!
Listening to his narrative of the fact and rationale, if one takes these facts as true, he is indeed quite persuasive in pondering what do gynecology records of women have to do with an investigation. There’s more that he said and claimed about the overreach of the investigation, etc.
Suave tone until about minute 19 when then the tone becomes louder, firmer, and firmly (but not overtly [although covertly] threatening) requesting a boycott of any STL investigator in Lebanon.
So, danny, it is not stupor for his believers who are made up of both HA members and sympathizers as well as a good fraction of the others, as FPM supporters can fairly claim in their blogs. It is the studied, determined, and highly orchestrated messaging which, for people living in Lebanon under the constant threats, difficulty of living, bewilderment at all the foreign interests playing themselves on the Lebanese scene, sounds like a plausible narrative.
It’s probably easy for us — when at a safe distance — to see through the fog, but I’ll have to concede that it’s not that easy for the folks in the middle of the swamp and up to their eyeballs in alligators.
As the saying goes “it’s complicated.”
Now, what can the STL do about it? Well, I don’t see why a full airing of the facts of what the questions were for the clinic, what authorizations were obtained, etc., shouldn’t be forcefully and definitively shared with everyone, rebuking and rejecting every claim of SHN. Without such documented airing with as much persuasion as SHN’s address, there is not much probability that the locals will insist on the “law” as understood internationally. Will the STL do it?
Posted by Honest Patriot | October 28, 2010, 5:34 pmVisiting a gynecological clinc to gather information after five years of investigation sounds fishy.
I was wondering why do they need personal records of these patients, going back to 2003. Is there any thing called privacy any more?
I guess If it was your wife ,daughter,or sister’s recordes they were gathering, you’d find it outragious,and not funny a t all.
Posted by Prophet | October 28, 2010, 6:24 pmVisiting a gynecological clinc to gather information after five years of investigation sounds fishy.
I was wondering why do they need personal records of these patients, going back to 2003. Is there any thing called privacy any more?
I guess If it was your wife ,daughter,or sister’s recordes they were gathering, you’d find it outragious,and not funny a t all.
Posted by Prophet | October 28, 2010, 6:24 pmQN,
Sorry for the double post, please remove one of the repeated comments,and this one as well.Thank you.
Posted by Prophet | October 28, 2010, 6:28 pmProphet, how can we know for a fact that they were asking for medical records going back to 2003, and not for phone records or something more mundane like that and maybe just from a very limited period of time. I understand SHN said so in his speech but is this enough?
This is why I wonder if the STL will come out with a disclosure of facts as to what kind of information they were seeking.
If they don’t, then it makes the STL look extremely bad for anyone with any ounce of understanding of the culture and the social norms of that area.
Ah! the simplicity that true facts can bring! Alas!
Posted by Honest Patriot | October 28, 2010, 6:43 pmFPM forum? huh? AIG, are you serious? there’s no clarity as to where this thing begins nor where it ends; no community; most of the comments are not worth the keyboard strokes generating them.
Here’s an example of posts on the SHN speech:
Quote (from Iran contributor)
” 30 Minutes Ago
Awesome speech!
Short, swift and straight to the point 😀
bass yaret men el awal ya SHN
WE DO NOT GIVE A **** ABOUT THE INT’L TRIBUNAL!!!!!!!!!”
Unquote
Quote (from Canada contributor)
” 1 Minute Ago
I am really surprised , why in the heck they need all the students files !! All these types of documents and information they ask for !!! 3anjad lebanon is so weak !!! Israel is playing with us , getting all the info they need ,………… this is what GAEGAE and his puppets want ………… weak country ,,,,,,,, maltashe ! tfeh !!
قلبنا عمرهُ ، أمره حزمنا وعزمنا ،، يدنا والزناد ،، دمنا والسلاح ،، لبيك يا نصرالله ”
Unquote
Sure enough, as BV advised, Geagea bashing finds its way in every other post. Also this is about an SHN speech so, instead of “Rabbak Ya General” we have a sort-of-equivalent
” لبيك يا نصرالله ”
( at your beck and calling, Oh Nasrallah )
I’m sorry but I don’t think I’m going to learn about Aoun from the forum. One must be really really bored with a tremendous amount of time at one’s hand to go and patiently weed through this pile of, uhum, material, in the hope of finding the pony somewhere. Or, one must have one’s brain wired differently than mine. Oh! wait, I know, AIG! For someone to “enjoy” posting there! Sheesh. I have no desire to either make fun of them or to engage in their forum. I hope everyone is happy with the forum they are in. For me, QN or Bust!
Posted by Honest Patriot | October 28, 2010, 7:05 pmQN, leave the Whiffenpoofs alone!
Veritas alone don’t cut it.
Lux et Veritas it is, and you know it!
But just this once, I’ll let it go.
And the QNion version of the Whiffenpoofs will show.
Posted by Honest Patriot | October 28, 2010, 7:29 pm… and I look like one of the dudes in the QNion version but there is minimal, if any, contraction of my hair 😉
Posted by Honest Patriot | October 28, 2010, 7:38 pmHP,
It is rather clear that gynecological records have nothing to do woth a sophisticated assassination attemp. It is also reasonable to surmise as you did that this is about one cell number. The rumors have been rife for over a year that one of the 6-8 cell numbers that are suspected of having been involved in the assassination made a telephone call to his wife/girlfriend/mistress. This is most likely what they were after. But as BV said even if it was a goose chase as long as the letter of the law was followed then no one, definitely not an organized counter demonstration, has the right to obstruct justice.
Circumstantial evidence is mounting that Hezbollah members were obviously implicated otherwise why take all of these actions?
And ,BTW, I agree with AIG, as funny as this is the real tragedy is that no Lebanese has been willing to stand up and object vociferously to these childish acts that are an insult to our intelligence but then maybe not. 🙂
Posted by Ghassan Karam | October 28, 2010, 8:03 pmProphet, what are you talking about “privacy” and being outraged that your sister’s medical files are being looked at…
Do you even know what information the investigation requested? No. So don’t pass judgement and jump to conclusions.
Everywhere in the world, under the proper rule of law, police and criminal investigations involve digging LEGALLY (after obtaining a warrant from a judge, or similar) into various financial files, medical files, etc. Privacy is indeed protected by law, almost everywhere, except where the law requires evidence to be turned over to investigators. It’s called a subpoena. It’s how the justice system requests the accounting papers of an Enron, or a Bernie Madoff, etc.
People really need to open their eyes as to how the law works in the real world, and stop with the fantasy-lalaland idiotic “everything goes” culture in Lebanon. Really.
You REALLY think the STL is interested in the medical files of 7000 women to pass along to Israel? Whatfor? What could Israel or the STL possibly gain from something like that?
I am sure they had good reason to ask for specific information about specific people. And I have to assume that the STL got the necessary LEGAL authorization to do so (or else, whatever info they gather would not stand in court anyway and is useless). Or are you also unfamiliar with the concept of “admissible evidence”?
Sometimes, I read stuff, and I wonder if the people saying it or writing it even re-read what they just said and see how ridiculous it sounds.
I’d love to see a Lebanese version of Bernie Madoff’s trial. Or some similar…Or maybe Jeffrey Dahmers’ trial.
“I am horribly offended that you went into my house and invaded my privacy and opened my fridge where you found those human remains that I was eating. You have insulted my honor and taken my LUNCH!”
Posted by Bad Vilbel | October 28, 2010, 8:09 pmGhassan and AIG
I wasn’t going to say anything, but now you’ve both annoyed me with the high-horsery.
What do you mean no Lebanese have stood up for the STL?? Do you read the March 14 media? Have you heard what a big deal people have made of this incident? That was actually the point of the satire: that both sides are taking this incident very seriously and trying to use it for their own ends.
As a side note: I’ve only recently discovered that one of the people accompanying the investigating team was very badly beaten by the mob, and their identity was revealed when their wallet was stolen… this obviously has serious repercussions for them and their family. This is something that the press did not report on. Had I known about this, I would not have written the Qnion post.
Posted by Qifa Nabki | October 28, 2010, 8:15 pmDoesn’t this incident unmask a pretty bad logistics AND strategic weakness of those working the STL in Lebanon. I mean, couldn’t this have been expected? SHOULDN’T this have been expected? And so, the preparation would have, should have, included full protection by the Lebanese Army, selection of a special time, official submission of the specific request for cell numbers or whatever the requests were (say, to the Lebanese government) so it is documented and could not be made a subject of conjecture and pretenses?
I know that hindsight is 20/20 but it’s not as if the STL doesn’t know what they’re dealing with.
What, they know the cat is guilty of eating the mouse, and they go corner the cat? What do they expect, the cat is going to attack, no?
rule-of-law shmule-of-law; this is Lebanon! it’s not lawless but there are unwritten rules of caution and planning required
And I do agree with QN. Many Lebanese have risked their life and many have paid with their lives for their protests and righteous declarations. Let’s not fight their battle from 6,000 miles.
Posted by Honest Patriot | October 28, 2010, 8:35 pmQN, I object !
my conclusion was very accurate after listening to SHN.
someone has to say it like it is
Posted by V | October 28, 2010, 9:24 pmHP,
This is a steady escalation by the HA. they knew these people were visiting the clinic. As I said before they did not just wander in. No protection was needed most likely because they did not think HA could stoop as low as having their goons dressed as women and attacking them. In the past five years thousands of interviews have been conducted by the STL investigators; some with the permission of HA and no issues were raised!
It seems obvious that the pressure and the heat of possible indictments in the near future has HA and Syria frazzled!
Now, SHN has laid down the gauntlet (law) that anyone who cooperates with the STL is a traitor against the “resistance”…So Raad’s and Mousawi’s words are being repeated.
I just hope that Bellemaire is ready and the court issues all the indictments to put an end to this incredulous escalation.
HP; it is not complicated man! No way! Either you believe that STL is interested in the OBGYN’s files and sexual issues of shiite or HA women or you don’t. Come on now. What kind of threats can make you believe such idiosyncrasies?
Posted by danny | October 28, 2010, 9:30 pmdanny, I don’t need any convincing. I’m talking about the folks in Lebanon, those who are not HA members nor supporters, but just neutral observers. The way the information is presented to them on the ground and in feeling their surroundings make many of them lend credence to SHN. And that’s a fact! anecdotally for me through some folks I know, but also by perusing the admittedly dense to follow FPM forum. It’s sad and rather incomprehensible but it’s true. Folks like and believe SHN! And not just HA folks.
Posted by Honest Patriot | October 28, 2010, 9:43 pmNasralla clearly said that if it was Ear Nose and Throat records they wanted to look at he wouldnt have had any problems with that 🙂
Posted by V | October 28, 2010, 9:45 pm… and danny, it’s incomprehensible to me how folks who should know better end up believing SHN in this case. I don’t understand it and can’t explain it. However, it is a fact.
Posted by Honest Patriot | October 28, 2010, 9:48 pmMaybe this helps explain it:
The arguments put forth by SHN are NOT of the logical kind. They address the emotional part of how intimacy and sexual matters are viewed in the society and the “Honor” part of the culture in these matters. Folks don’t stop and reason about all this. They hear what he says and immediately get emotional and outraged and then all reason goes out the window and of course Israel gets blamed, and Amreeka gets blamed, etc., and then anyone who dare suggest otherwise or who, in any way, supports or wants to cooperate with the STL becomes ipso facto an agent of the Colonial Big Satan and its Devil-Incarnate protégé.
Posted by Honest Patriot | October 28, 2010, 9:52 pmWhy in the bloody hell would the STL send English-speaking investigators to the clinic?
That was beyond stupid.
Is Jeffrey Feltman in charge of logistics?
Posted by lally | October 28, 2010, 9:54 pmWhat difference does it make what language the investigators spoke ? they belong to an international organization and they had translators and they were escorted by Lebanese army intelligence officers.
Posted by V | October 28, 2010, 10:10 pmQN #32,
There is no high horsery. Hezbollah and the FPM are treated with kids gloves. Yes there are a few isolated incidents wheere an individual expresses disgust but I am sure that you know that neither I nor AIG for that matter are talking about these outliers that are bound to occur. It is the leadership and the community that has not taken a stand aginst all these shenanigans in over 5 years. Where uis the outrage against the irrationality of holding a whole nation hostage by illegal forces? Where are the demonstrations against the attempt to thwart the rule of law… I do not care whether the people who are willing to express outrage represent 10 % or whether they represent 80% of the population. it is the absence of such action that is distressing and that makes look and act as a failed state. Jumblatt changes colour as often as a Chameleon and the press acts as if that is normal, Wahab who probably represents ten people is grabbing daily headlines by making pronouncements about what “we: want and what “we” demand. That is an utter waste of spce and ink. Suleiman is elected unconstitutionally and when someone dared mention that on FB the whole force of the Lebanese government hit him for daring to speak the truth…These are not made up interpretations but accurate pictures of what goes on daily by a government that is not a government since almost half of its members are opposed to all its measures. The truth at times hurts and some of us might prefer to deny it . Looking at things from a different angle than the mainstream is not a license to dismiss such concerns arrogantly by describing those who profess them as riding on a high horse.
Posted by Ghassan Karam | October 28, 2010, 10:38 pmWell, V. Spoken like a true believer in form over function.
Posted by lally | October 28, 2010, 10:40 pmLOL. I love it. some people really DON’T have a sense of humor. so sad.
G: “vagina clinic”?? eeww… what kind of french is that.
Posted by Zenobia | October 28, 2010, 10:52 pmQN,
Come on, what you say makes me quite sad but does prove GK and my point.
A man doing his job is badly injured by a lynch mob and the government does not say a word? And the Lebanese are confused about who is right and wrong because it is “complicated”?
And as for the injured person’s family being afraid now that his identity is known, think a moment what you are saying. Has Lebanon really become as bad as Syria and people are afraid to make their opinions and affiliations known? I didn’t think this was the case but it looks as things are deteriorating fast.
For heaven’s sake, the editorial of the Daily Star today is about inflation!!!!
http://dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&article_id=120889&categ_id=17#axzz13iRsQpmg
Are they afraid also? It looks like it to me.
So really, what is there to laugh about? Ha ha, Hezbollah can do whatever they want, and everybody is afraid to do something about it or even say that they disagree.
Look, I know your intentions are good, and satire is always done on the cutting edge. But sometimes, the cutting edge is also the bleeding edge and then it is not satire, but cynicism. No big deal, reasonable people can disagree on this.
Posted by AIG | October 29, 2010, 12:04 amHmmmm …
Lewd On:
I am recalling Achkar’s joke slogan about Achrafieh not being for “p*****s.” But the Dahiyeh? And also, the Seinfeld “***man” about a certain proctologist and his eponymous license plate. Or perhaps, STL investigators were acting on a tip relayed from Gemayel through Feltman: something about quantity v. quality. A separate team was sent to the Paris suburbs to investigate a certain medical clinic popular among Leb Christians for a certain procedure.
“Leaving no Lebanese womb unexamined” could well be the STL’s new slogan.
Lewd Off.
Posted by david | October 29, 2010, 12:12 amCame a time when I had some respect towards Hassan Nasrallah, but after yesterday’s enlightened speech all I have towards our divine protector is disdain.
I very much doubt that the STL investigators did not fulfill every legal aspect before going to the clinic. Moreover just like Hassan himself said that Dr. Charara has access to highly ranked Hizbullah members I very much doubt that she did not have the Hizb’s full approval before agreeing to the rendez-vous.
Although I agree with BV with regards to the legal aspect, what infuriates me the most is the fact that the army once again failed to protect and no one will be held accountable for such a failure.
Posted by marillionlb | October 29, 2010, 4:02 amGK, AIG, let’s tone it down a bit, shall we?
AIG, if you read the thread here you’ll see that the news about the man being injured was shared by QN himself, with no details that I can easily find in the press, and he pointed out that had he known about it he would not have written this piece, at least not as QNion piece, so your argument there is at best misinformed and at worst disingenuous.
As far as the outrage and statements of condemnation let me suggest that the STL has some responsibility in addressing the incident FIRST and clarifying what they were looking for. Have they done it? You cannot fight this fight from 6000 miles as I indicated earlier. The emotions involved in the local culture for someone prying into the private medical files of women are overwhelming. Check.
HA is claiming that indeed that’s what was being sought. Check.
The STL has not issued a denial. Check.
HA is accusing the STL of being a tool in cahoots with Israel (in that all information obtained ends up there). Check (while remembering the wanton destruction heaped on parts of Lebanon and its citizen by Israel in 2006).
The facts are not officially revealed. Check.
There has been no admission that men in women clothes were involved. Check.
HA claims it was a “spontaneous” reaction. Check.
As pointed out, M14 and Geagea in particular have voiced vehement rejection of the incident and of SHN’s speech.
Any strong comment from others, prior to clarification of the facts, may well lead to violence in the streets, possibly what HA wants. Check.
Front page article in the Daily Star of today gives clear opinions opposing the incident and the SHN speech, indicating both as a sign that HA is being further cornered, which is the only explanation for this behavior. Check.
I see your positions as akin to those about the Jewish community of Lebanon. You are certainly entitled to them. But a question suggested is to ask not why certain actions and statements that you want/expect are not happening but what would you have done, personally, if you lived there and were subject to all the conditions of such life?
Posted by Honest Patriot | October 29, 2010, 4:31 amHere’s the Daily Star front page article:
http://dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=2&article_id=120915#axzz13jcnvTv6
Posted by Honest Patriot | October 29, 2010, 4:33 am… and in #48 my last question is rhetorical. I do not believe we know or can put ourselves in the shoes of the people living there. We can find it incomprehensible but we cannot claim to know. If you think otherwise then it’s a different story.
Posted by Honest Patriot | October 29, 2010, 4:39 amand lally in #40 is absolutely right; this incident did not need to happen if a culture-sensitive approach had been used; I agree there is incompetence there.
Posted by Honest Patriot | October 29, 2010, 4:45 amGK,
“The rumors have been rife for over a year that one of the 6-8 cell numbers that are suspected of having been involved in the assassination made a telephone call to his wife/girlfriend/mistress.”
Let me see if I get your logic.
HA man uses his cell phone to call his partner who is visiting/working at the clinic?
So maybe you can enlighten us as to how the doctor would have a record of this?
Posted by usedtopost | October 29, 2010, 4:52 amWhy should the STL go public and clearly state what they were after when they visited Dr. Charara’s clinic?. To suggest such a thing is ludicrous the STL’s investigation is supposed to be secret. Not long ago Hassan and his thugs (including Jamil Al Sayyed) were furious and claiming that the STL was leaking information.
I think the only thing to do is wait for the indictments to come out.
Posted by marillionlb | October 29, 2010, 4:53 am… People always told me be careful of what you do. And don’t go around breaking young girls’ hearts. And mother always told me be careful of who you love. And be careful of what you do ’cause the lie becomes the truth.
[…] is not my lover. She’s just a girl who claims that I am the one. But the kid is not my son. She says I am the one, but the kid is not my son.
For forty days and for forty nights. The law was on her side. But who can stand when she’s in demand. Her schemes and plans.
‘Cause we danced on the floor in the round.
So take my strong advice, just remember to always think twice.(Do think twice) …
Posted by david | October 29, 2010, 4:58 amThe STL has been coordinating this for the past month; they were drawn into a trap set by HA to end up exactly like it did for internal consumption and for an excuse to set the new rules of the game. To claim that this was mishandled by the STL for lack of cultural sensitivity is plain naive. Do you think if the STL sent in a team of women investigators dressed in Chadors HA would have allowed them access to the files?
Posted by V | October 29, 2010, 4:58 ammarillion @53, they don’t have to reveal any secrets. The STL just has to unequivocally state that they were not interested in any OB-GYN files of any women and that what SHN was claiming on TV was completely and utterly false.
Regrettably, silence, in this case, is detrimental.
Reading V’s comments, it looks like whether you live in or outside Lebanon, some folks just don’t get the cultural and social dimensions of these issues and sentiments.
It is such cultural insensitivity that causes terrible mistakes, such as the numerous ones made by the U.S. in Iraq and Afghanistan as they climb the learning curve.
The reality is that SHN’s speech was very powerful from a social, emotional, and human way. Failing to understand that and rebutting the facts is “more than a crime, it’s a mistake.”
Posted by Honest Patriot | October 29, 2010, 6:03 am@HP, Although I see your point I still disagree. The STL should not have to reply to the rantings of Hassan Nassrallah, they tried it with Jamil Al Sayyed and all it did was add more oil onto the fire. As for cultural insensitivity, well not very long ago (up to the 70’s) this would have not been such a hot issue (maybe just a mention under fait divers), and I still fail to see why is it insensitive for two professional (who happened to be male) cannot go into a gynecologist’s clinic (headed by a woman) with prior agreement and ask whatever they want or what the probably agreed upon whilst setting up such meeting. I am sorry to say that this is definitely not the Lebanon I was born in, nor would I accept to raise my son with such hypocrisy (and no I am not leaving again). Even if the investigators were Muslim, veiled and women some other disturbance would have taken place. This has nothing to do with honor, it has to do with the ongoing battle against the STL and it is nothing but another proof that the army is incapable of protecting anyone against Hizballah’s armed militiamen.
Posted by marillionlb | October 29, 2010, 6:28 ammarillionlb, I just discovered your blogs. Good stuff. Alas the question always remains: what is the solution? I don’t have it and I’m definitely not going back, for escaping a close brush with death once is enough for me.
Posted by Honest Patriot | October 29, 2010, 6:55 amI left for a while and have been back for 10 years now. Came a time when i thought I had the solution (education, secular state, MP and minister’s accountability, urban planning, judicial system…etc), now I have no clue anymore. All I know is that i haven’t given up yet. I just want my son to be able to one day take his kids down to Hamra street for the lighting of the xmas decorations, for his kids not to feel that they have entered another country whilst they are just on different streets in the same city, for them to be able to enjoy camping in the middle of the woods without being harassed and kicked out because they in a sa called sensitive area, for them to be able to drive their car without the fear that it will get stolen from them only to be sold back to them for $500-$10,000 and collected from britel. The list is too long and I would like to abuse QN’s hospitality.
The solution is to keep raising my voice until many of us actually gather our forces and make the change.
Posted by marillionlb | October 29, 2010, 7:06 amHP #48,
What is it that is to be toned down? What do you find offensive?
As to your suggesting that the STL has some explaining to do: Do we really want to go down that dead road again and blame the victim? What should they explain and to whom? Maybe they should get permission from Hezbollah before they embark on any move? This comic tragedy has gone on for far too long and I am not limiting this statement to the STL only.
Posted by Ghassan Karam | October 29, 2010, 7:06 amI wouldn’t, sorry
Posted by marillionlb | October 29, 2010, 7:08 amI agree with marillionlb.
HP, I don’t get your bending over logic. Now you are falling into the sectarian BS Nassrallah is setting up. Again; thousands of interviews have been done by these investigators with no “incidence”; who are from different countries FYI. Your contention that the people being in Lebanon would act like sheep still does not hold water! What kind of people would believe that the murder investigators of Hariri are looking for the OBGYN’s patients’ medical records. (from 7000 to 17 mind you lol). Maybe a new pilot dubbed “Sex in the Dahieh”?
I do not wish to exonerate the sheeple from their stupidity. The reason they believe the “bearded wonder” is because they are hateful and on some kind of narcotics. Always remember that religion IS the opium of the masses.
Finally STL is not obliged to respond to every and any BS rant that comes out of HA/Syrian lackeys. I think they should carry on their duties in secrecy. The problem is the GOVERNMENT of Lebanon. Where is QN’s comrade in arms; Mr. Baroud or mr. Murr? PM? The response should be from the STATE.
Posted by danny | October 29, 2010, 7:14 amSeveral cynical and no so cynical observations
1) Long time ago Yassar Arfat have said that the the Palestinian womb is the strongest weapon that the Pal. have, or some thing to that effect, and any how there is more than little truth in that saying. Well in a way it is also the Shia womb, among other factors, that put Lebanon in its present position. So, where is the best place to study such potent weapon if not in the discussed place?
2) The other idea come to me when half listening to two kids in my street who were discussing their affairs in half Hebrew half Arabic, and then one screamed at the other …Ok shove in your mother c…s and the other screamed back …NO ! in your sister c..s. So it is possible that the fellows from the STL intercepted such talk on the phone of some suspected individuals and thinking that some weapon or important document was hidden in such place went to the clinic to learn about the subject, knowing that the place had the files of both mother and sisters.
3) There was some talk about pigs and Halal. It is one of the things, not a few, were the crazies of Islam and Jews [ and the not so crazy ] agree completely.
4) They are saying that soon we will have rain. It does not look like that. Believe me, there are people in Israel and Lebanon, all better and more honest than me who are thinking about rain and care not about subjects discussed here.
Posted by Rani | October 29, 2010, 7:33 amDanny habibi, you calling anyone “hateful” is very much pot and kettle.
As for everyone else, lets figure out this conundrum. If the investigators weren’t there for patient records like you say, what were they there for?
GK claims something to do with phones. Maybe someone can figure out why they would be going to a doctor for phone details that they couldn’t get from the telecoms companies?
Appointment details? Why would that require a visit and why the records of 17 if not 7000 women?
By Lebanese law, these women would need to give permission for their records to be released. Is it because these women are Shia that most of you don’t care all that much about their rights to privacy?
And if they were there simply to pick up folders, why were they and not the ISF doing this (as stipulated by the UN resolution)? In fact, why did they, espec. in the current political environment, venture into a womens clinic in a Shia area without proper security precautions?
So what would this doctor have that would help their investigation?
I hope these questions seem logical enough.
Posted by usedtopost | October 29, 2010, 7:37 amMo,
Buddy I am not hateful. I do not religious like you and do not frame everything by the sect. I have total disdain towards the terrorist militia called HA. Shia as much as the rest of Lebanon have been held hostage to HA’s whim.
Now; why are you criticizing the investigators before you know full facts on whether they had addressed all the so called “sensitivities” before they went to the clinic. Off course that did not stop the HA resistance heros to wear in chadors and attack the defenseless investigators.
Posted by danny | October 29, 2010, 7:43 amSorry meant I am NOT religious..
Posted by danny | October 29, 2010, 7:44 am“Buddy I am not hateful”
Maybe its just me but the terminology, disdain and sarcasm you have come across a pretty hateful. Maybe you can ask others?
“Shia as much as the rest of Lebanon have been held hostage to HA’s whim”
You will need a much better understanding of the Shia of Lebanon if you thats is your conclusion
“why are you criticizing the investigators before you know full facts”
Where do you see critisism? I am trying to figure out what they wanted. And seriously, you of all people are going to complain about making statements without knowing the facts?
“What kind of people would believe that the murder investigators of Hariri are looking for the OBGYN’s patients’ medical records”
“Off course that did not stop the HA resistance heros to wear in chadors and attack the defenseless investigators.”
Just two of your many statements made with no factual evidence.
Posted by usedtopost | October 29, 2010, 9:55 amHP,
You did not understand what I wrote QN. The additional info just made my point stronger, it did not make my point.
Your answers suggest to me that you have a severe case of Battered person syndrome:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battered_person_syndrome
“In lay terms, this is a reference to any person who, because of constant and severe domestic violence usually involving physical abuse by a partner, becomes depressed and unable to take any independent action that would allow him or her to escape the abuse. The condition explains why abused people often do not seek assistance from others, fight their abuser, or leave the abusive situation. Sufferers have low self-esteem, and often believe that the abuse is their fault. Such persons usually refuse to press criminal charges against their abuser, and refuse all offers of help, often becoming aggressive or abusive to others who attempt to offer assistance. Often sufferers will even seek out their very abuser for comfort shortly after an incident of abuse.”
When it comes to HA’s abusive actions, you match nearly all the symptoms. Contrast your reaction with that of marillionlb.
Posted by AIG | October 29, 2010, 10:23 ammo,
I guess sarcasm equates to hate in your book. No quarrels with me. Feel free. If you think my calling HA a terrorist organization is not factual…please re read about Imad Mugniaeh’s (HA’s hero)life’s “accomplishments”.
Yes Mo, you are quoting Hassan Nassrallah as if what he said were facts.
“Appointment details? Why would that require a visit and why the records of 17 if not 7000 women?”
Did you factually confirm that was the reason for their visit? Have you posed for a moment and asked yourself the simple question:
*IF HA THOUGHT THIS WAS SO IMMORAL AND INTRUSIVE WHY DID THEY GIVE THEM PERMISSION TO VISIT THE KIND DOCTOR IN THE FIRST PLACE.?*
Your whole post #64 is based on the premis that STL is wrong! You have taken Nasrallah’s comments as facts and you are asking irrelevant questions.
…and mo, Here’s a link to the story of your merry men (women).
http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/NewsDesk.nsf/getstory?openform&144749C636802B33C22577CA0020B604
Posted by danny | October 29, 2010, 10:25 amRani,
We’ve been getting light to moderate rains here in Beirut over the past couple of days. Lots of rain last night and a nice storm this afternoon.
Alas, other than the few small orchards and small vegetable plots along the coast no benefit was or will be seen from these rains. In fact you can see all the rainwater and a fine layer of fertile silt deposited about 20 meters into the Sea.
The sea takes 60% of our fresh rainwater, and ground losses account for another 27%. Going back to the last post if there was something I hope for in Lebanon in 2020 is water harvesting infrastructure and fresh water exports to our thirstier neighbors…
Unfortunately all we will get are more Lebanon Made solutions like the one Berri allegedly told Sarkozy about. http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/NewsDesk.nsf/getstory?openform&4C6AD34D3F8A9891C22577CB00289CAC
Posted by Johnny | October 29, 2010, 10:32 amdanny, you are hilarious.
You berate me with taking the words of Nasrallah as fact and then link to Naharnet as evidence for your fact?
FYI, I didn’t hear Nasrallahs speech nor have I read a transcript.
My whole post at #64 was to try and figure out what is quite a surreal situation. It has nothing to do with the STL and what I think of it. If you weren’t so hateful, you would have seen that.
Oh and before you made the comment about how obvious they werent there for patient records, did you factually confirm that was not the reason for their visit? Do you have an alternative reason for their visit?
Posted by usedtopost | October 29, 2010, 10:58 amGotta say I agree with AIG and Ghassan Karam on this one. There is absolutely nothing to be “offended” by in their statements.
The fact of the matter is that anywhere else in the civilized world, a UN investigation, following due process of the law, would be a non-issue.
Only in Lebanon does this get twisted into something “complicated” involving honor, conspiracy theories about Israel’s interest in Shia wombs and a complete diversion of the public discourse towards non-relevant issues.
The relevant issue here is NOT “honor”, or anything of the sort. The relevant issue here is that several citizens (women or men in disguise, i don’t know) committed ASSAULT (which is crime, last I checked) and impeded/interfered with a perfectly legal criminal investigation (also a crime). Yet not a single person is being outraged that the LAW was broken, and not a single person is demanding the culprits be prosecuted as they should be. Even the M14 side, who QN rightly points, is talking up a storm, is doing so on political grounds. NOT on grounds of the law being broken by a bunch of thugs.
It’s really VERY simple, in ANY civilized country.
Posted by Bad Vilbel | October 29, 2010, 12:29 pmGK, BV, I never used the word “offended,” here, neither, I think did QN. We can agree to disagree slightly on this one, in that the points I make have to do with persuasion of the local population and how it reacts. I’m not saying any of these SHN claims are right nor are justified. I am saying they are effective for a great majority of his audience. Blasting this massive audience in a fell swoop leads nowhere.
AIG, we can disagree as well, but let me tell you, chum, that the kind of post you share in #68 is an example of how instead of arguing logically you succumb to the temptation of labeling your debater and you do so in a rather condescending way. Listen, no skin off my back. I know I’m older than you and I tend to think a bit wiser. I forgive you but you should really know that you gain NOTHING from that part of your post other than turning people off and diminishing the value of any valid argument you’re presenting. – Shalom
Posted by Honest Patriot | October 29, 2010, 12:55 pmYes disdain and yes I am hateful toward a turban wearing thug who waves his finger in anger while he threatens me every time he goes on TV. My hatred towards Hassan and his like is well deserved. It wase who threatened to cut his head, his arms or any of his limbs for that matter, it wasnt me who repeatedly called him a trator and asked for the suitable punishment and it wasnt me who took to the streets in a killing spree. Yes i fo hate Hassan Nasrallah all which he stands for.
Posted by Marillionlb | October 29, 2010, 12:55 pmFrankly, SHN’s ramblings for the last 6 months remind me of none other than GMA back in 90/91.
The delusion of grandeur seems to have hit Nasrallah the same way it hit Aoun back then. Nasrallah seems to think he is as invincible as Aoun thought he was.
Aoun’s speeches also stopped making any sense at one point …
This is Lebanon and I wouldn’t be surprised if SHN ends up transiting in his PJs via the Iranian Embassy to Teheran.
Posted by PeterinDubai | October 29, 2010, 12:57 pmAIG, you wouldn’t by any chance be involved with Ricor (www.ricor.com) would you? Because if you did, I’ll tell my friends there to provide you with a cryogenic cooler which is what you probably need to cool what seems to be a deeply seated yet subtle temper.
Posted by Honest Patriot | October 29, 2010, 1:04 pmPeter, wishful thinking unless the complete destruction of Lebanon happens prior to that.
Marillionlb, why did you disable the link to your blog? I understand your sentiments and lament the poor prospects for the fulfillment of your dreams, at least not any time soon. The video of a young SHN you have on your blog is remarkably clear to anyone who wants to understand the determined plan he and his colleagues have for Lebanon (to eventually become part of wilayat al faqih, not as an independent nation but as a satellite province).
Time to leave again?
Posted by Honest Patriot | October 29, 2010, 1:10 pmHP,
What is not “logical” about my argument? My argument is by analogy and is used quite often. Look at your answers and tell me they do not smack from Battered Person Syndrome.
HA committed a crime yet you fault the STL. You have gone out of your way to justify and understand the actions of the perpetrators. You justify the Lebanese doing nothing about it. Need I go on? A battered person can always use “logic” to rationalize his/her position. But when you base you reasoning on a faulty set of axioms, the best logic will only get you nonsense.
Posted by AIG | October 29, 2010, 1:15 pmHP, I did not disable the link, my pc died on me and i am using my phone to thebest of my ability.
I left from 84 to 99 so i guess i did my share of self inflicted exile,but this time i am here to stay.
Posted by Marillionlb | October 29, 2010, 1:20 pmAIG, “HA committed a crime yet you fault the STL.”
No, I don’t. Anyway that sentence is meaningless.
You cannot boil down a situation like what happened to a tweet.
And, just in case you didn’t know, which seems to be the case, “argument is by analogy” is nonsense. Analogies may be used to help explain something but they don’t constitute “reason.” As the French saying goes “comparaison n’est pas raison.”
Anyway, your insistence on using this battered person thingy is a pretty poor reflection on your inability to accept when you’ve gone too far. I can’t really recall the last time you did that, anyway, so I’m not surprised.
Posted by Honest Patriot | October 29, 2010, 1:24 pmWas this your family house in Lebanon and family members in the picture? Pathetic mascarading as humourous and smart. As pathetic as the vast nmajority of the closet Zionists on this blog. Elias Muhanna come out of the closet and assume your racism instead of trying to hide behind your Harvard education and so-called objectivity. The even lousier Bush studied there. Shame on you.
Posted by Reader | October 29, 2010, 1:29 pmReader, ignoramuses like you have no place on this blog. We debate here, logically, and with empathy and compassion and objectivity. Take your hatred somewhere else. If you don’t have something to say other than throwing epithets and insults, just wear a dunce cap and hide in one of the hate-filled corners of the internet.
Posted by Honest Patriot | October 29, 2010, 1:32 pmHonest Patriot @26.
There is a credibility issue that should be taken into consideration here. The STL needs to keep in mind that there is no consensus regarding its investigation , credibility, or its existence. The agreement signed by the Lebanese government and the UN has constitutional questions since it was never ratified by the parliament, nor was it approved by th e president .You can debate the political situation that existed then much as you want, but the fact are clear, the president was constitutionally elected, and the parliament was constitutional as well. So The STL already looks bad.
Ignoring those issues is not helping the STL in any .Walking into gynecological clinic in a very conservative society to obtain phone or medical records won’t be seen as proper procedure.Bad Vilbel @31.
What is really idiotic is when a country abandon its responsibilities and subsidize them to a foreign institution, and then having people like you support it. You make it sound that the STL is such a holly entity that needs to be worshiped. . Let them clean up the mess they got themselves into for the past 5 years first. I don’t need you lecturing me .
I’m not aware of any warrants being issued here. All we know is that they requested to interview her at her office, and then they requested records.
Posted by Prophet | October 29, 2010, 1:33 pmYa Prophet, I’m getting beaten on from both sides here. It’s tough to be a centrist!
Posted by Honest Patriot | October 29, 2010, 1:38 pmand Prophet, if you live in Lebanon then you clearly get it!
Posted by Honest Patriot | October 29, 2010, 1:39 pmDear Johnny.
Thank you very much for your attention. Yes, water and soil are very impoertant to me. I am happy, realy, that according to your words some rain fell over Beiruth, it clean the air and probably if you looked east you could see far into the mountains. You could not see that far before the rain because of the smog. Also streets cleaned by rain are some how cleaner. Yes you are right, what goes to the sea is lost but next week Lebanese fresh citrus will be sweeter because of what they got from the rain and trees and people should be thankfull for that. I hope that in the next months you will have a lot of snow in the mountaines. I am looking forward to look at that snow, from a far.
Posted by Rani | October 29, 2010, 1:40 pm@ Rani
No worries. We’ll post sexy pictures of deeply tanned boys and girls in skin tight ski outfits skiing down our snow covered slopes sucking on sweet citrus fruits.
Posted by PeterinDubai | October 29, 2010, 1:51 pmHonest Patriot,
I don’t live in Lebanon,but I’m trying to be as objective as I can. I’m not trying to win a debate here,nor am I trying to beat you either,lol.
I’m simply stating my humble opinion without being emotional about the whole STL Circus .
I can’t accept the notion that the STL can not be questioned at all.
If we can question religion,then we can question the STL,the UN ,or The international comunity.
Posted by Prophet | October 29, 2010, 1:54 pmHP,
Argument by analogy is nonsense? You must b joking:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument#Argument_by_analogy
It is a widely accepted form of argument in modern philosophy. Let me spell out the argument to you. I am trying to show you that problem with your argument by showing you how similar that argument is to that of a person with Battered Person Syndrome.
And yes, you say that there is fault with the STL for not explaining itself or not being better prepared. Just read your own posts.
I have not called you names nor attacked you personally so I do not understand your insistence that I crossed some line.
What exactly is the “centrist” line by the way about such an incident? Any centrist I know would clearly denounce the perpetrators and acknowledge that it is sad that he/she is not in a position to remedy the situation.
Posted by AIG | October 29, 2010, 1:55 pmProphet,
http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/NewsDesk.nsf/getstory?openform&6F3E30731E25D4C9C22577CB0059478A
Posted by PeterinDubai | October 29, 2010, 1:56 pmHP,
I understood your point. We are not in disagreement. We are simply talking about 2 different things.
You are talking about how the population reacts to Nassrallah’s antics, and how easily they get played on their emotions, rather than using their heads and rational thinking.
I am with you on that.
My point was somewhat unrelated.
My point (same as Ghassan’s) was that NONE OF THIS MATTERS. What should matter is the rule of law, and the fact that it is broken (assault, interfering with an investigation) and that NO ONE on either side has even mention that aspect of it. And that is a complete shame.
Day after day, Lebanon continues to show that has absolutely no grasp on the word “law”. Not its leaders, not its people.
Day after day:
– Young men get arrested for disparaging the president on Facebook. Yet Wiam Wahab does it daily and incites for violence and does not get prosecuted.
– A “private militia” invades an international airport.
– An arrest warrant and summons remain unfullfilled on Jamil El Sayyed, despite his whereabouts being well known.
– Criminal investigations get interfered with (a crime far worse than that of being a “false witness”).
– People get assaulted, beaten and robbed, in a clinic, yet no one gets arrested, etc.
And then you look at the public discourse, and not a single person seems to be incensed by the BREAKING OF THE LAW.
They get incensed alright, but it’s for completely different reasons, like “honor” or Israel, or whoever’s agenda…
Posted by Bad Vilbel | October 29, 2010, 2:01 pmAnyone else find this weird obsession with rain and sweet citrus kinda…strange? 🙂
Posted by Bad Vilbel | October 29, 2010, 2:02 pmProphet,
By all means question the STL. But whatever you think about it, how does this justify the attack which QN has updated us has actually badly injured one of the investigators? Why lynch them instead of sending 5 HA guards to ask them to leave? It would have had the same effect.
HA was trying to intimidate the STL investigators and manipulate public opinion against them. They succeeded magnificently. Even you and HP tolerate their actions, actions that you would never tolerate in your own country of residence.
Posted by AIG | October 29, 2010, 2:03 pmBV,
We live in a part of the world where Universal law is at odds with Shari’a law.
Just in case you weren’t aware.
Posted by PeterinDubai | October 29, 2010, 2:05 pmProphet @88 – I’m with you
Posted by Honest Patriot | October 29, 2010, 2:05 pmAIG, “clearly denounce the perpetrators and acknowledge that it is sad that he/she is not in a position to remedy the situation.”
I agree with this, which is why I say you don’t understand my point.
Explaining how a mass of people perceives certain things does not mean agreeing with them nor justifying the “things” nor anything.
Painting the mass of people with a monochromatic bursh is, in my opinion, a mistake.
As long as all of us are sad “that [we are] not in a position to remedy the situation” then the next best thing is to understand what the dynamic components are so as to be in a better “position to remedy the situation.”
The alternative is deadly conflict.
I appreciate that you don’t quite comprehend why I say your comparison crosses some line. I know that if you did then you wouldn’t use it. I just disagree with you on that one.
Posted by Honest Patriot | October 29, 2010, 2:10 pmBV @ 91 exxxaaaactlyyyy !!!
Thank you!
Posted by Honest Patriot | October 29, 2010, 2:12 pmAIG @93 “Even you and HP tolerate their actions, actions that you would never tolerate in your own country of residence.”
Wrong. I am not in a position to tolerate or not tolerate “their actions.” I disapprove of it. I said so. I am not in a position to do anything about, neither are you, at least not now, neither is anyone else on this blog. So?
Posted by Honest Patriot | October 29, 2010, 2:13 pmAIG,
What are you doing within your own country to stop the insanity of race and religion ?
Posted by PeterinDubai | October 29, 2010, 2:17 pmPeterinDubai@90
My issues are with the constitutional legality,and credibility of the STL..Giving me a link to naharnet website, where Bellmare says “Investigators Did Not Breach Ethical, Religious Norms” will not answer the question.
You are using the word of the accused as a proof.
Posted by Prophet | October 29, 2010, 2:17 pmHP #82
I suspect that Reader is not a new reader/commentator. He/She have been here for a long time but always posting under different names?
Posted by Ghassan Karam | October 29, 2010, 2:18 pmHP,
“Justifying” means giving a good reason for something. You seem to believe that the Lebanese have a good reason to act as they do, no? Something about things being complicated and swamps and alligators. If you think that Lebanese have a good reason for the way they are acting, you are justifying their action.
And if you don’t believe that Lebanese are acting for good reasons, what exactly are you explaining? The Lebanese are acting for no good reasons either way so you are not really defending them.
Posted by AIG | October 29, 2010, 2:20 pmHP,
Aren’t you dizzy?
Mo, I see you are very happy. In your opinion an eyewitness’s account is not credible to you. False witness eh?. 😀
..and you said”Oh and before you made the comment about how obvious they werent there for patient records, did you factually confirm that was not the reason for their visit? Do you have an alternative reason for their visit?”
Yes. http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/NewsDesk.nsf/getstory?openform&6F3E30731E25D4C9C22577CB0059478A
I posed a question to you as you ignored:
*IF HA THOUGHT THIS WAS SO IMMORAL AND INTRUSIVE WHY DID THEY GIVE THEM PERMISSION TO VISIT THE KIND DOCTOR IN THE FIRST PLACE.?
BV you are right. Where’s the law? Well you seem to forget that Hassan Nassrallah is immune to any law. He decides what is law! He has now decided that if you cooperate with STL you are working against his terrorist entity.
Posted by danny | October 29, 2010, 2:21 pmHP,
In post 51 you write:
“and lally in #40 is absolutely right; this incident did not need to happen if a culture-sensitive approach had been used; I agree there is incompetence there.”
You are blaming the incident on STL’s incompetence. So maybe you are not “tolerating” it but putting the blame on the victims also. To me that is tolerating the incident because your view is that there are mitigating circumstances.
Posted by AIG | October 29, 2010, 2:27 pmProphet
And your religious backing is what ?
Your first name happens to be ?
Posted by PeterinDubai | October 29, 2010, 2:32 pmAgain,
You guys are a perfect example of missing the point.
No offense to anyone, but why are you debating “tolerating” and “incompetence” and all that? Again, that’s entirely besides the point. I have still not seen a single post here demanding the arrest of those who obstructed justice or assaulted/robbed…
Posted by Bad Vilbel | October 29, 2010, 2:44 pmHP says:
“I am not in a position to do anything about, neither are you, at least not now, neither is anyone else on this blog.”
Are you suggesting that you are only wasting your time? If what you are doing , on this blog, or other blogs is meaningless then why do it. I hold a completely different opinion on this matter, this medium is similar to pamphleteering, in a sense many on the web are Thomas Paines 🙂
Is it really worth while, do you believe that we can change the world one person at a time? These are different questions but to suggest that what you and many others devote hours to every day is worthless would suggest a lack of belief in what one is doing. Why allocate so much time to an activity that you do not believe in?
AIG
Argument by analogy is used sparingly and is not exactly as common or as popular as you suggest. Actually I would lean towards the statement of HP since the strength of an argument by analogy is always a function of the strength of the analogy. In most cases analogies do not hold up well. The FPM is often making the analogies that GMA is a political and intellectual giant by comparing him favourably to the the greatness of Napoleon, George Washington and Jesus 🙂 That is one argument that I cannot buy lol.
Posted by Ghassan Karam | October 29, 2010, 2:49 pmAIG @93
I never justified any violence against the investigators who visited the clinic.
As for the update, With all due respect to QN( not disputing his update ), there are plenty of conflicting stories coming out of Lebanon regarding the incident that took place.
That being said, the core issue ,in my opinion, is the STL Itself( constitutional , and credibility issues), and the real objectives behind its investigation.
Had the STL confronted those issues earlier, It may not have found itself in this mess, or maybe it didn’t want to. That confirms many of the suspicions; many people have, surrounding its work.
As for HA suspecting that they are being framed, they’ll do any thing.
Posted by Prophet | October 29, 2010, 2:51 pmHP
Let me leave you with this quote from Keynes:
. “Madmen in authority, who hear voices in the air, are distilling their frenzy from some academic scribbler of a few years back. I am sure that the power of vested interests is vastly exaggerated compared with the gradual encroachment of ideas. . . . [S]oon or late, it is ideas, not vested interests, which are dangerous for good or evil.”
Have a nice week end.
Posted by Ghassan Karam | October 29, 2010, 3:00 pmGK,
Of course the strength of an argument by analogy is related to how good the analogy is.
The argument is used quite a bit. Here is one famous example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontological_argument#Gaunilo.27s_island
Posted by AIG | October 29, 2010, 3:02 pmBV,
The reason no one is demanding that anybody will be arrested is additional proof of how good the Battered Person Syndrome analogy is.
More and more the relation between the Lebanese state and Hezbollah is resembling the relation between a battered spouse and his/her partner.
Posted by AIG | October 29, 2010, 3:07 pmAIG
Exactly what Israel looks like today under Benji and company.
Posted by PeterinDubai | October 29, 2010, 3:14 pmPeterinDubai@105.
I don’t know why my religion and /or my first name should matter.
I’ll tell you anyway,lol
I’m lebanese who happened to be Muslim. I’m a non religious person. I have no political loyalty to any lebanese party or leader,AND I WILL NEVER DO.
My lebanese identity always comes first. I’m very allergic to organised religion alltogeter.
That does not mean that my political views won’t coincide with any or all party at one time or another.
I hope this will satisfy your curiosity. I would not judge your political opinions by your first name or religion anyway.
As for my name( Prophet), It may be an indication for my own prophecy,lol JK
Posted by Prophet | October 29, 2010, 3:34 pmBV, It’s very simple. We don’t care about the law here. Better stated: We only care about the laws that are in our short term interests. Anything that is not in the short term interest is a conspiracy perpetrated on the Lebanese people and should be immediately discarded.
‘Lebanon-Made’ solutions always work best. No victor no vanquished anyone?
Posted by Johnny | October 29, 2010, 3:49 pmFascination in the rain and soil is founded in a desire to nourish the ever growing population with ever shrinking resources.
Agriculture is the essence of society. There would be nothing without it as we would all be spending our time hunting & gathering instead of on this blog.
I take special interest in it in Lebanon because I believe agriculture is an industry where we could have a distinct competitive advantage in the region – if planned, developed and managed correctly.
Posted by Johnny | October 29, 2010, 3:53 pmProphet and AIG,
So what do your kids names go by ?
Posted by PeterinDubai | October 29, 2010, 4:50 pmhttp://www.stl-tsl.org/sid/206
Posted by Marillionlb | October 29, 2010, 4:56 pmAIG said “The reason no one is demanding that anybody will be arrested is additional proof of how good the Battered Person Syndrome analogy is.
More and more the relation between the Lebanese state and Hezbollah is resembling the relation between a battered spouse and his/her partner.”
I actually agree with you 100%.
And it’s not “more and more”. I’ve stated this to be the case for quite some time now…Going back to 2000, really. I thought it was fairly accepted by all (at least the non-kool-aid drinking crowd) that HA has been bullying Lebanon all along. I mean, what do you call the events of 2008? That’s about as “battering of your spoouse” as one can get.
Posted by Bad Vilbel | October 29, 2010, 5:01 pmFrom Marillion’s link. I quote the most important paragraph, imo.
“As stated in the press release issued on 27 October 2010, the process leading to the visit was handled professionally and in accordance with legal safeguards. The visit had been approved by the Lebanese authorities. The investigators were accompanied by members of the judicial police and the army. The doctor had received approval from the Beirut Order of Physicians to meet with the OTP investigators, and had agreed to the meeting.”
That should (one would think) be the end of any argument. That’s it. End of story.
Posted by Bad Vilbel | October 29, 2010, 5:03 pmPeter,
My kids are named Jihad, Shaheed and Umm Kulthum.
Posted by AIG | October 29, 2010, 5:05 pmYeah AIG,
And mine are named Nachum, Shmulik and Erez.
What’s your real name by the way ?
Posted by PeterinDubai | October 29, 2010, 5:29 pmPeterinDuba,
If I tell you the names of my children, would you promise me that You won’t ask for my Bank account, and social security number? lol
Posted by prophet | October 29, 2010, 5:37 pmProphet
It depends on what you intend to do with the money you have been able to accumulate or the social security number you, your wife and your children seem to take for granted in the country you live in.
Allah Akbar !
The rest of us are just dorks.
Posted by PeterinDubai | October 29, 2010, 5:51 pmWhat ever Peter,
I have no time for your cynicism.
Posted by Prophet | October 29, 2010, 6:23 pmAIG,
Do you enjoy listening to Umm Kulthum’s “Amal Hayaty”? If you do, there is a chance for peace between us. 🙂
Posted by Badr | October 30, 2010, 3:36 amFrom the press release:
Finding the truth about the attack which resulted in the death of Rafik Hariri and 22 others is in the interest of all Lebanese.
Is this really the case?
Posted by Badr | October 30, 2010, 4:06 am