Lebanon, Syria

The Number One Sunni in Lebanon


Shortly after Najib Miqati became prime minister of Lebanon early last year, he went on Marcel Ghanem’s venerable political talk show, Kalam el-Nas.

Marcel asked him to respond to his opponents’ critique that he was not “Sunni enough” to assume the post from which Saad Hariri had been unceremoniously ejected by Hizbullah and its allies. Miqati responded with a hysterical tirade, which you can watch here. (Translation is below)…

Mikati: “I don’t accept anyone to question my Sunnism. If there’s a Sunni in Lebanon, it’s me. I won’t accept it! And those who want to hand out certificates (of Sunnism) can go do it on their own. I’m Sunni in belief, Sunni in practice, Sunni in politics, and I’m the number one defender of the Sunnis in Lebanon. If you want to talk about Sunnis, I’m the one with the highest number of Sunni votes. In the ballot boxes of Tripoli, 87% of the Sunnis voted for Najib Miqati, which has never happened in the history of elections in Lebanon. So [whoever is questioning my Sunnism] can get lost, with all my respect for the muftis and who else is concerned with this issue. I’m the Number One Sunni in Lebanon!”

Marcel Ghanem: Great. Moving on…

Today, the Sunni credentials of many of Lebanon’s leaders, including Messrs. Miqati and Hariri, are being challenged again. The situation in Tripoli has consumed the news, and I have nothing to add to the many good commentaries by Maya Mikdashi, Emile Hokayem, Karl Sharro, Michael Young, Mustapha Hamaoui, and others.

Except for this one thing: Before last week, I would have been surprised if 1% of the many Lebanese political junkies who read this blog could tell me who Shadi al-Mawlawi or Ahmad Abd al-Wahed were. Today, the identities of these men and the tension surrounding the former’s imprisonment and the latter’s death are causing a major headache for the sitting government.

The Future Movement has seized on these events to make a typically hamfisted play, pressuring Miqati to resign. I don’t see that succeeding unless the situation in Tripoli becomes far worse. And even in such a case, I continue to believe that Hariri has no desire to return to the limelight so soon. He is biding his time abroad not because of security threats but because the position of the Lebanese Prime Minister — the Number One Sunni in Lebanon — is precisely where he doesn’t want to be right now.

There will be a lot of bluster in the press for a few days, but behind the scenes, Lebanon’s political establishment will likely try to find a way to make its Tripoli problem go away. The truth is that no one is the Number One Sunni in Lebanon, which means that no one is ideally positioned to gain any political traction from the situation in the North.

Update: Have a look at Mitch Prothero’s piece for FP, which makes a similar point…

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Discussion

347 thoughts on “The Number One Sunni in Lebanon

  1. AIG: “No system is ever tested to the extent it was used in the war. In addition, the dud problem was associated with how the bombs were stored. When “fresh” munition was tested, the dud rate was reasonable.”

    Excuse me for not knowing. I don’t work in the military area. What does that mean… no system is ever tested to the extent it would be used during war.

    What test procedures and criteria are used before deployment? Is minimizing civilian casualties a consideration in weapons development? If not, on what basis are you acting surprised about field results, available at least since the 70s? What is a “reasonable” dud rate? When did the comparison between Fresh and Poorly stored munition based cluster bombs made? And where can I find the reports and test results?

    Posted by Gabriel | May 30, 2012, 1:27 pm
  2. Gabriel,

    Israel and Lebanon are enemies. Do you really expect your enemies to clean up your country? If you don’t want to do it, don’t do it. But don’t delude yourself you are not morally responsible for the results.

    Let’s make it simple. You ask me to clean your country. I say no. What are you going to do? Leave it as is or take care of your problems? And how is it relevant if I take responsibility or not? How does that relate to your duty to fix your country and protect your kids? And you know who dropped the bombs. So why are you not making us clean the mess? You are not even following your recommended course of action!

    Again, you keep bringing up excuse after stupid excuse to do nothing. Your morality is hot air.

    The Lebanese diaspora in general is pathetic in my opinion. They did nothing to stop the civil war and there was much they could do. And now you see yourself maybe sliding into a civil war and still the diaspora does one tenth of what it should and could do. But that is really your problem, not mine.

    Posted by AIG | May 30, 2012, 1:30 pm
  3. And your questions about the cluster munitions just prove my point again. If you were so bothered by the bombs, why are you waiting 6 years to consolidate all this information? Why didn’t you find this information years ago and sue Israel? Why is there not ONE such case going forward?

    And it also shows you jump to conclusions with knowing enough facts. You admit you are not an expert. You admit you lack basic information and you still make accusations but of course do none of the work to actually sue Israel. Pathetic.

    Find the information yourself and make reasoned and supported accusations.

    Posted by AIG | May 30, 2012, 1:34 pm
  4. According to this article in Al Akhbar, the wealth of information the Lebanese security agencies have on Al Qaeda and assassination bids is staggering. Secret information from within the organization, phone taps and the whole nine yards.

    Why didn’t anyone arrest them?

    http://english.al-akhbar.com/content/al-qaeda-lebanon-murmurs-assassinations

    Posted by Monolith | May 30, 2012, 1:41 pm
  5. AIG.

    I don’t know where to find the information. That’s why I asked you (as you seem to know a thing or two about those cluster bombs). At the very least provide a link to where you get your information from!

    Also, I am not interested in suing you, or your country. I’m asking you a simple question. Will you seriously take no moral responsibility for those duds that you left that kill children- an act that you claim to be reprehensible!

    Lebanon and Israel may be at a State of War, that’s certainly no excuse for either side to drop duds in each others’ territories and risk the lives of each others’ children. I don’t jump up and down when HA rains Katyushas in Israel and risk the lives of children in Northern Israeli towns. Nor do I suggest that Lebanon and Israel are at a State of War, or use the fact that the overflights you claim are Cassus Belli are still ongoing as justification.

    You seem to constantly find excuses for why you support your country’s decision to take military actions that jeapordized the lives of children you claim to care about. It started of being something somewhat noble like “you support killing children when it means saving Jewish children’s lives”. Now it seems the conditions are not so stringent. Just being in a State of War appears to give you license to adopt strategies that jeapordize the lives of children!

    Posted by Gabriel | May 30, 2012, 1:46 pm
  6. PS.

    Don’t concern yourself with what I care about, or what I don’t care about. My moral compass, or lack thereof.

    As GK’s suggestion. We are discussing here an idea. The Idea is that of Killing Children. Whether it’s reprehensible or not. Whether it can be acceptable in certain scenarios or not. I want to understand better why you seem suddenly so overly concerned over dead Arab (in this case- Syrian) children and their well-being. I didn’t ask you to care more than me. Or suggest that I cared more than you. I am here to discuss the “Idea”.

    Keep your moralizing and personal judgements out of the discussion.

    Posted by Gabriel | May 30, 2012, 1:51 pm
  7. Gabriel,

    You are trying to change the subject. We are discussing whether all your talk of morality is hot air or not because you always have excuses why you do not do anything. Nothing you say in your posts is relevant to the discussion. I do want to discuss your moral compass, and don’t play games, just read the 10+ previous posts. We were discussing exactly your lame excuses not to help kids in Lebanon.

    And why are you not interested in suing my country? If you think we did something wrong to Lebanon, why wouldn’t you want us to pay a price and deter us from doing the same in the future? If you can’t find information, don’t make unsubstantiated accusations. I am not going to do this basic work for you.

    And again, you know who the “burglar” is. You said that if you knew who he was you would make him clean up and pay. So, I ask again, why are you not doing so? Just another example of hot air and the fact you do not mean what you say. Same thing goes for all your “moral” proclamations.

    And by the way, how can you ask me to care more than you when your actions and the fact you do nothing prove you don’t care at all?

    Posted by AIG | May 30, 2012, 2:12 pm
  8. And for the duds, of course I am not happy that kids died, just as Obama is not happy when drone attacks kill kids, but that doesn’t mean that what was done is wrong. If you think it is, prove it in a court of law. You know exactly where the duds were found, Hezbollah knows which areas it fired rockets from etc. etc. Do the work and show that Israel used these weapons in an irresponsible way. Show credible evidence that we knew what the dud rate would actually be. Interview and subpoena that US weapon manufacturers. Do the work and then sue us. But here we are six years later, and there is nothing from your side. Either you are terribly incompetent or there is no evidence to support what you say. Or maybe both.

    Posted by AIG | May 30, 2012, 2:22 pm
  9. And why are you not interested in suing my country? If you think we did something wrong to Lebanon, why wouldn’t you want us to pay a price and deter us from doing the same in the future?

    I’ll just address this point, since it covers all other points. I’m not interested because, as I wrote, I’m discussing the Idea with you. The idea is the same idea you started this whole conversation with: Killing Children, Helping Children, etc… and for which to date, you have demonstrated naught but total insincerity in your original lofty claims.

    There are people actively working on divestment and challenging Israel. Good on them and their on-the-ground-efforts. I wish them the best of success. If you would like to have a discussion with people actively working on the ground to hold Israel accountable for its crimes, feel free to spark such a conversation with someone who is active in that sense. I apologize that I don’t personally fit that bill.

    Posted by Gabriel | May 30, 2012, 2:35 pm
  10. And for the duds, of course I am not happy that kids died, just as Obama is not happy when drone attacks kill kids, but that doesn’t mean that what was done is wrong. If you think it is, prove it in a court of law.

    I don’t believe there is a Convention on Drone Attacks as there is on Cluster Munititions. So please don’t compare the former with the latter.

    If you are not happy that kids die due to cluster duds, then you shouldn’t put those duds there in the first place.

    And what precisely do you want me to prove in a court of Law. You are the one coming here and suggesting that there is research that “Fresh muniitions” (Whatever that means) have an “acceptable” dud rate.

    It seems from the following list that:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_Cluster_Munitions#States_Parties

    Israel has not yet ratified the convention. Why- since you have already acknowledged its lack of effectivity do you think this is the case?

    Also, from:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cluster_munition

    It appears that Israel has not yet agreed to destroy its stockpiles. I assume not destroying them would mean those munitions are not “fresh” but “stale” (I don’t know- those are new terms for me, lol).

    Is there not enough field data for Israel to make the right moral decision on those cluster bombs yet? Or are you still holding on to the position that Israel has no moral responsibility for children who die from duds left by Israel?

    Posted by Gabriel | May 30, 2012, 2:46 pm
  11. Insincerity in helping children? I am willing to die to protect Israel children and have proved this with my actions. You are not willing to take risk to help save Lebanese! That is the whole point. Your talk is all hot air because you are not willing to do anything. All you care about is your close family and that is it. Just the thought of taking the smallest risk or inconveniencing your career makes you go ballistic. And you call yourself “moral”. Just hot air.

    And as for not suing Israel, why do you need the information for then? To keep in your head and do nothing about it? Again, you keep missing the point. The fact that you do nothing shows that all your talk of morality is nothing but hot air. If you don’t plan to use that information to do anything to help people in the future, what is all your talk worth?

    As for the cluster munitions, of course I can compare them to drone attacks. So what if there is no convention on drone attacks? The point is simple. You have to show that Israel used cluster bombs in an irresponsible or wrong manner. You have not shown this. The fact that kids died, like in the drone case shows nothing to support what you claim. And the Convention is from 2008! In 2006 there was no convention. So how is this relevant at all?

    I see no reason not to use cluster munitions in the future if the issue of duds can be solved. Cluster munitions could be effective and would not endanger populations after the war if some technological problems are solved. What Israel is doing makes perfect sense. If after the next war we use these weapons and the same problems persist, you will have a leg to stand on. No other country in the world has to fight guerrilla forces with thousands of missiles on their borders. Of course it is easy for them to ratify any bull shit convention about arms and destroy weapons they don’t have.

    Posted by AIG | May 30, 2012, 3:15 pm
  12. And you forgot to answer this question. You said if you knew the “burglar” you would make him tidy up and pay. But you know who dropped the bombs. So why aren’t you making us pay?

    Posted by AIG | May 30, 2012, 3:20 pm
  13. AIG:

    Insincerity in your accusations of Syrian war crimes. Not in helping children. I don’t doubt you would help your children or Jewish children. Values are not measured by what you pamper yourself with, but how you treat others.

    Don’t slither and slide on this. You came here and passed all sort of judgement on Bashar’s Alawi thugs and how they murder children (generally- non-Alawi children).

    And yet your people (the Jews of Israel) condone, and you seem rather proud of this, the use of duds that killed non-Jewish Lebanese children, and you seem to have no moral reservation about this.

    This makes you an insincere hypocrite.

    Why shouldn’t Bashar’s thugs get as much moral license to kill children as you apparently give yourself?

    Posted by Gabriel | May 30, 2012, 3:25 pm
  14. And you forgot to answer this question. You said if you knew the “burglar” you would make him tidy up and pay. But you know who dropped the bombs. So why aren’t you making us pay?

    Because I am Canadian. And thankfully (for you), you did not drop your duds here in Canada.

    Posted by Gabriel | May 30, 2012, 3:26 pm
  15. I see no reason not to use cluster munitions in the future if the issue of duds can be solved. Cluster munitions could be effective and would not endanger populations after the war if some technological problems are solved. What Israel is doing makes perfect sense.

    … if the issue of the duds can be solved?

    … if some technological problems are solved?

    Cluster bombs and duds have been around for decades!

    I thought you said the issues are known. Something about Stale vs Fresh duds. I feel like we’re discussing having a Baguette in Montreal vs Toronto! LoL.

    Guy, get real. Are the “issues” known or not known?

    Who is looking into solving those technological problems?

    You’re still defending the indefensible?

    Have you no shame?

    Posted by Gabriel | May 30, 2012, 3:32 pm
  16. “Because I am Canadian. And thankfully (for you), you did not drop your duds here in Canada.”

    What a lame excuse to do nothing. The way you explain your inaction is to say: “I am not responsible for Lebanese kids”. Which proves that all your talk about morality is BS. You are basically saying it is ok to trash Lebanon as long as nobody touches Canada. Are you sure you want to say that?

    And about the Convention, you really are a joke! Canada, did not sign it!!! What did you do about that if that issue is so important to you? You did what you always do, nothing. You are just hot air with nothing behind it. What is your excuse now, that Lebanon did sign it?

    And about the accusations you miss the point again and again. I do not expect anything from Assad’s thugs. But from someone like you that talks so much and thinks he is moral, I expected you to do something to stop massacres. But since you have made it perfectly clear that you would not even do anything to stop a massacre in Lebanon, I don’t expect now anything from you. I am just pointing out that you are immoral and don’t really care about Lebanon’s kids. Morality if first measured by how you treat people close to you. And you would let Lebanese kids be massacred without doing anything. Your sense of morality is quire wrapped.

    Posted by AIG | May 30, 2012, 3:39 pm
  17. “Who is looking into solving those technological problems?”

    Israel is and the US is and Canada is. Your country didn’t sign the Convention! Your own country has the same position as me so how is it “indefensible”? You are amusing.

    Posted by AIG | May 30, 2012, 3:42 pm
  18. What a lame excuse to do nothing. The way you explain your inaction is to say: “I am not responsible for Lebanese kids”. Which proves that all your talk about morality is BS. You are basically saying it is ok to trash Lebanon as long as nobody touches Canada. Are you sure you want to say that?

    Really AIG.

    You hold yourself responsible to only help Jewish Children. But only defend other “children” in words.

    But apparently, I am responsible to help first “Lebanese” children, then “Arab” children. While I’m at it, since I’m Canadian, I should also help “Canadian” children. As it were, I’m part English, so that means I’m also responsible to help English “kids”.

    My moral obligations in life to help children puts your obligations to shame! Why you need only help millions of children, and I am morally obligated to help hundreds of millions of people.

    And if I don’t, then apparently all my talk about morality is BS.

    Really. You really believe that?

    And since when does confining who I commit to help mean that ” it is ok to trash Lebanon”. If I am not prepared to dedicate my life to helping Lebanese kids, you think that translates to me giving you license to trash Lebanon?

    Is there something wrong with your brain?

    Posted by Gabriel | May 30, 2012, 3:46 pm
  19. http://www.international.gc.ca/stART-GTSR/convention-Oslo-2008.aspx?lang=eng&view=d

    Canada has no stockpiles, nor does it produce cluster weapons.

    It’s concerned about striking a balance with its “allies”. Shameful position, but incomparable to the immoral position you hold.

    Posted by Gabriel | May 30, 2012, 3:51 pm
  20. And about the accusations you miss the point again and again. I do not expect anything from Assad’s thugs.

    In my view, I don’t think you have the moral right to call them thugs at all. Their behaviour is not very much different from the behaviour you support.

    Posted by Gabriel | May 30, 2012, 3:54 pm
  21. PS2: Out of curiousity, did AP ever go to Israel and take up arms to protect Jewish children?

    Gabriel,

    I like to think I did my part. I spent some time at IAI working on Moshe Aren’s baby: the Lavi. Then it got cancelled.

    So I never “took up arms”. I just built them.

    Posted by Akbar Palace | May 30, 2012, 3:55 pm
  22. You are commenting extensively on a Lebanese blog, you admit to being of Lebanese heritage, you focus on wrongs done to Lebanon, you hold yourself to be moral and you expect people to consider you as such if you would not do anything to protect Lebanese kids from a massacre? Are you serious?

    Of course your talk of mortality is BS because you plan to do nothing when Lebanese kids are murdered! Forget Arab or Syrian. I asked many posts back to define the group you feel responsible for and your answer is that you would do nothing even in the case of Lebanese kids.

    If you see someone hitting an old lady and you do nothing, are you not for all practical purposes giving the attacker license? You are not telling him he could hit her, you are not condoning it, but you are sending a clear message that you plan to do nothing and if he continues, nothing will happen to him. That is the message you are sending Assad’s thugs. Wake up.

    And I am still amused by how you based an argument on the Convention that Canada has not ratified and only plans to ratify in an extremely watered down way. Read this:
    http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Anti+cluster+bomb+called+weak+Canada+complicit+their/6539558/story.html

    Posted by AIG | May 30, 2012, 3:56 pm
  23. “Who is looking into solving those technological problems?”

    Israel is

    But you stated earlier that…

    “If after the next war we use these weapons and the same problems persist, you will have a leg to stand on. ”

    This means that until your research is concluded and you demonstrate that your “dud rate” is acceptable (I don’t know how one can possibly measure such nebulous concepts)… you are willing to try it out in the next war!

    Field trials if you will.

    Really AIG. This research is not concluded, and despite the wealth of evidence showing how duds are still maiming children in all sorts of places… you are willing to rain even more duds and kill more children.

    And you come here and you pretend to care about “Children”.

    You don’t get a medal for caring about Jewish Children or your Children!

    Posted by Gabriel | May 30, 2012, 4:01 pm
  24. “In my view, I don’t think you have the moral right to call them thugs at all. Their behaviour is not very much different from the behaviour you support.”

    That sounds strong from a person who would stand by and let Lebanese be murdered. Now, let’s check if I have the right to call them thugs. Assad’s men are thugs. There I did it, it seems I have the right.

    But again, all you are good at is moral indignation with zero action. You are not even doing anything about Canada’s position on cluster munitions! Does your insurance policy not cover that also?

    If I am a thug so is Obama and you are also one because your country supports drone attacks.

    Posted by AIG | May 30, 2012, 4:02 pm
  25. telling him he could hit her, you are not condoning it, but you are sending a clear message that you plan to do nothing and if he continues, nothing will happen to him. That is the message you are sending Assad’s thugs.

    Right now, I’m not concerned about the message I’m sending to the Assad thugs. I’ll concern myself with that when I talk to Alex or Norm or Parviziyi or any of the other Assad supporters.

    I am talking to an Israeli thug who condones raining duds on Lebanese soil. You really think that me not doing anything about your immoral action is sending a message to you that I think your behaviour is acceptable!

    PS. The link you posted re Canada is in agreement with what I stated. Canada does not produce cluster munitions, nor does it stockpile them, nor does it use them.

    Don’t compare Israel to Canada.

    Yes, the government of Canada is actively brown-nosing the US. So there is no strong legistlation to limit co-operation etc. But this detail is hardly worth pointing out.

    Posted by Gabriel | May 30, 2012, 4:07 pm
  26. “This means that until your research is concluded and you demonstrate that your “dud rate” is acceptable (I don’t know how one can possibly measure such nebulous concepts)… you are willing to try it out in the next war!”

    Boy are you grasping at straws. What I meant is that we will only use those weapons if we solve these problems. And it does mean much more testing over a larger period of time. Testing dud rates is very simple. You drop the ammunition in a specific location and you count how many bomblets did not go off.

    What are you doing to change Canada’s views on cluster munitions? Does your government not care about children because they plan using cluster munitions in the future?

    Posted by AIG | May 30, 2012, 4:08 pm
  27. “So there is no strong legistlation to limit co-operation etc. But this detail is hardly worth pointing out.”

    You are a joke! That is the crux of the matter. Did you read the article? It means that Canada is not really ratifying the agreement. How inconvenient for you. So what if Canada is “brown nosing” or whatever. Canada plans to use these weapons as part of Nato and in collaboration with the US. Canada is just as “bad” as Israel in this regard.

    “Right now, I’m not concerned about the message I’m sending to the Assad thugs. I’ll concern myself with that when I talk to Alex or Norm or Parviziyi or any of the other Assad supporters.”

    So your moral principles change depending on who you talk to? That figures, as you are just hot air.

    Posted by AIG | May 30, 2012, 4:12 pm
  28. You have the “right” to say whatever you want. But not the moral right, and not the right to expect to be taken seriously.

    You are no less a thug than the butchers of Damascus. It’s as simple as that.

    And are you still on about the Drone Attacks?

    When there is a Convention against Drones tabled and ratified by many countries, we can revisit your concerns about whether Obama is a thug or not.

    Posted by Gabriel | May 30, 2012, 4:13 pm
  29. This is precious. I am splitting my sides laughing. You raise the issue of the Convention against cluster munitions and it turns out that Canada will only ratify it if it can continue using these weapons! And you want to use this argument against Israel when your country has basically the same position as Israel?

    Obama will not ratify the Convention and the US plans to use cluster weapons in the future. Your PM will not ratify the convention unless Canada can keep using these weapons. So tell me, are Obama and your PM thugs? It is such a simple question.

    Posted by AIG | May 30, 2012, 4:28 pm
  30. What are you doing to change Canada’s views on cluster munitions? Does your government not care about children because they plan using cluster munitions in the future?

    Again you’re getting personal. What am I planning to do? That’s not any of your business! Who I vote for, how politically involved I am in Canada!

    Canada plans to use cluster munitions in the future? Where did you get that idea from! I insist you point me to the link that made that allegation! I will make sure to do my utmost to put a stop to it immediately!

    So what if Canada is “brown nosing” or whatever.

    So what? So that the moral question rests more greatly on whoever it is brown-nosing. That is NOT to condone Canada’s position. But focussing on this aspect is not dealing with the real problem. And the real problem here is the US’s position.

    So your moral principles change depending on who you talk to? That figures, as you are just hot air.

    No- why should I talk to you about Assad’s thugs? If I have a beef with Assad’s thugs, I will gladly discuss the issue with those who support Assad. What value is it to have the discussion with you? Especially since you are no less thuggish! Wouldn’t my discussions with you be much more fruitful if we focus on your own thuggishness, and support to murdering children?

    Posted by Gabriel | May 30, 2012, 4:30 pm
  31. https://qifanabki.com/2012/05/21/the-number-one-sunni-in-lebanon/#comment-35978

    Forget Vancouver sun articles, etc.

    Please state clearly when the last time Canada used cluster bombs was.

    Once you provide this data, we can debate Canada’s role in murdering children. Otherwise, put a sock in it.

    Posted by Gabriel | May 30, 2012, 4:36 pm
  32. Testing dud rates is very simple. You drop the ammunition in a specific location and you count how many bomblets did not go off.

    Jeezus. I can’t keep up.

    May I humbly suggest that the next time Israel is interested in performing field trials to demonstrate how safe the cluster bombs are to use that they conduct those field tests in the heart of Tel Aviv?

    Clear an area, drop a bomb, and maybe AP can fly over to help clear what remains from unexploded duds!

    Posted by Gabriel | May 30, 2012, 4:40 pm
  33. Lally,

    I have decided that you are right. I think AIG does love me. Why else does he appear to be so overly concerned with my opinion and approval!

    Posted by Gabriel | May 30, 2012, 4:42 pm
  34. You are running away from a simple question:
    Obama will not ratify the Convention and the US plans to use cluster weapons in the future. Your PM will not ratify the convention unless Canada can keep using these weapons or work with allies that do. So tell me, are Obama and your PM thugs?

    What is your answer?

    If Canada does not plan to use cluster weapons, why did it water down to basically nothing its ratification? Canada wants to be able to order or participate in Nato and US attacks that include cluster munitions. Just read what the critics of the government say.

    As for testing dud rates, you do that in a munition range genius.

    The message you send to Assad thugs is not only relevant to discussion with Syrians. It is extremely relevant in this discussion. You just want to ignore it. But you can’t. It is just another example where your rhetoric does not match your actions. Just more evidence that your talk of morals is just hot air.

    Posted by AIG | May 30, 2012, 4:57 pm
  35. I “love” you because you are a poster child for moralizing buffoons that are only hot air. You are a great representative of that group of people who speak of morals but do nothing when evil actually rears its ugly head. They keep saying “that is not in my backyard” even like in your case when it is in your kitchen. You will not even lift a finger to save Lebanese from being massacred! How was I so lucky to find you?

    Posted by AIG | May 30, 2012, 5:00 pm
  36. I would also like to revisit this quote of yours:
    “Because I am Canadian. And thankfully (for you), you did not drop your duds here in Canada.”

    It seems that you could do something for Lebanon but are not doing it only because you are Canadian. Aren’t you being selfish? If it is really the case you could do something about Israel, why don’t you just do it? Why does it matter that you are Canadian and where the duds are? At least the very least, tell the Lebanese what you would do that is so effective so that they can do it themselves. You would not deny them that, would you?

    Posted by AIG | May 30, 2012, 5:07 pm
  37. AIG:

    Really, you are tiresome. You haven’t answered hundreds of questions and here you are nit-picking.

    Canada hasn’t ratified it because it wants to be part of joint operations with the US, with NATO, yadda-yadda. Yes. So? It’s terrible. I said it was terrible. But Canada has not used these weapons- not to my knowledge.

    If you really want to discuss Canada’s thug status, let’s do so on historical facts. Pull out a historical fact, and let’s discuss.

    When we discuss your thug-status, we do so on the basis of your support for your country’s frequent and actual use of cluster bombs, starting from the 70s.

    You are a thug. When Canada acts like a thug, we can discuss Canada’s thuggishness. Until then, your question is pointless.

    “As for testing dud rates, you do that in a munition range genius.”

    Well I’m not concerned about where you normally do the testing. I simply suggest that since you are so very confident about the testing they will have done and the test results, perhaps you can have your first field test in Tel Aviv!

    As I said, in order to ensure the safety of Jewish Israeli children from the risk of poor test results, and duds, perhaps AP can make a special trip over to Tel Aviv, and help clear what remains from those duds.

    Duds are good for you, like a Nuttela sandwich for breakfast!

    Posted by Gabriel | May 30, 2012, 5:10 pm
  38. I would also like to revisit this quote of yours:
    “Because I am Canadian. And thankfully (for you), you did not drop your duds here in Canada.”

    It seems that you could do something for Lebanon but are not doing it only because you are Canadian. Aren’t you being selfish? If it is really the case you could do something about Israel, why don’t you just do it? Why does it matter that you are Canadian and where the duds are? At least the very least, tell the Lebanese what you would do that is so effective so that they can do it themselves. You would not deny them that, would you?

    AIG. I would like to take your words and do one of my old exercises. Flip your name and my name. You recall the exercise. I call it the “Spot the Hypocrite Exercise”. You come here complaining about Syria’s thugs and feign concern for Syria’s dead children….

    So:

    “It seems that you could do something for Syria but are not doing it only because you are a Jew. Aren’t you being selfish? If it is really the case you could do something about Syria, why don’t you just do it? Why does it matter that you are a Jew and who what Nation/Religion the dead Children are? At least the very least, tell the Free Syrians what you would do that is so effective so that they can do it themselves. You would not deny them that, would you?”

    Yes, AIG…

    The floor is yours.

    Posted by Gabriel | May 30, 2012, 5:15 pm
  39. You keep evading the question. Is Obama a thug because he approves of cluster munitions, yes or no?
    It is such a simple question. Please remember that the US has used cluster munitions on several occasions and wars.

    As for Canada not using them it is because they have not been in a full scale war since WWII or something like that. So it does not matter if they used them or not. The fact that they are willing to use them makes them exactly like Israel. Is your PM a thug for willing to use cluster munitions? Yes or no?

    You are really having problems answering these questions. I wonder why.

    Posted by AIG | May 30, 2012, 5:20 pm
  40. You keep evading the question. Is Obama a thug because he approves of cluster munitions, yes or no?
    It is such a simple question. Please remember that the US has used cluster munitions on several occasions and wars.

    Please AIG, at least stop morphing the questions. I keep answering them and then you morph them and accuse me of not answering them.

    Yes AIG, the US’s refusal to sign on to the Anti-Cluster bombing movement is a sign of Thuggish behaviour. Whether or not Obama personally is a thug in my books depends on whether or not he personally approves of the US position (the US is a democracy after all, and he may personally be opposed to it). Since I do not know what his personal position on this point is then it would hardly be fair for you to expect me to level a personal judgement on the chap.

    What we can say for a fact is that you- AIG- are a thug for your clearly stated support for those weapons that kills and maim children.

    Is your PM a thug for willing to use cluster munitions? Yes or no?

    Yes.

    Big surprise there. Gaby doesn’t like Stephen Harper! LoL

    Really AIG, did you really need to ask that question!

    Posted by Gabriel | May 30, 2012, 5:25 pm
  41. “Flip your name and my name.”

    You are evading questions by returning to your old tricks. The Syrians and Lebanese are your “brothers” not mine. The least you can do is tell the Lebanese how you would take care of Israel if you were only Lebanese. I am not asking you to risk anything. Just tell the Lebanese what you would do if only you were Lebanese and that you claim is so effective and I am lucky they are not doing. So what would you do? If I were in your position I would certainly do it. So, we are waiting.

    Posted by AIG | May 30, 2012, 5:25 pm
  42. Great, so we finally have it. I am a “thug” like your PM and like Obama and the whole US Congress that refused to ratify the Convention. Obama worked to legalize cluster munitions:
    http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/nov2011/clus-n18.shtml

    From the article:
    “Although the US is not a member, the Obama Administration is now leading an effort to invalidate what modest effect the CCM treaty has had. ”

    So according to Gabriel Obama and his administration are thugs just like Assad’s thugs. You have crossed the threshold from amusing to crazy.

    Posted by AIG | May 30, 2012, 5:31 pm
  43. You are evading questions by returning to your old tricks. The Syrians and Lebanese are your “brothers” not mine

    Who’s evading questions AIG?

    My brothers?

    Not yours?

    I know you’re an atheist and all, but maybe you should go speak to some Rabbi. Like I said before, I’m not personally really a fan of the Bible and what have you, but I thought the Arabs and Jews were somehow related. Something about Abraham. Check Wikipedia.

    Anyways, who cares if they are my brothers. I have many “brothers” apparently. Holy crap, any more brothers and I’ll be practically in an incestuous relationship any time I court someone! Brothers with the Lebanese. The Syrians. The Arabs. And the English. Which makes me Brothers with the Australians and the Canadians.

    Who’s the Selfish one AIG?

    Are you Selfish? Yes or No?

    The floor is yours.

    Posted by Gabriel | May 30, 2012, 5:34 pm
  44. So according to Gabriel Obama and his administration are thugs just like Assad’s thugs. You have crossed the threshold from amusing to crazy.

    Yes AIG. I think supporting indiscriminate weapons that have maimed and killed hundreds of people- some many years after the fact is thuggish.

    And I’m the crazy one :).

    LoL.

    Posted by Gabriel | May 30, 2012, 5:38 pm
  45. A Palace.

    This is kind of interesting:

    “I spent some time at IAI working on Moshe Aren’s baby: the Lavi. Then it got cancelled.

    So I never “took up arms”. I just built them”

    What component(s) were you involved with? What a boondoggle (for your birth country) the Lavi turned out to be.

    Posted by lally | May 30, 2012, 5:41 pm
  46. BTW AIG:

    I found this online. It’s dated a little earlier than your article…

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/13/us-national-security-obama-administration

    Before passing judgement on poor Obama, perhaps we should confirm the facts.

    Posted by Gabriel | May 30, 2012, 5:43 pm
  47. http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=2&vote=00232

    More on Obama’s personal position.

    Maybe the problem isn’t Obama.

    Posted by Gabriel | May 30, 2012, 5:47 pm
  48. You have just said that Obama is a thug like Assad’s thug that murdered the people in Houla. Did you not?

    If that is not crazy talk, I don’t know what is. You can be against cluster munitions. That does not make you crazy. What makes you crazy is categorizing people who are not against banning them “thugs” and putting them in the same category as people who murder children in cold blood. You just classified the majority of Americans as “thugs”. Way to go not so sane person.

    You have not answered my question: What is this valuable advice that you would give the Lebanese to take care of Israel? You know, those methods that you would use if you were Lebanese and Israeli dropped cluster munitions of you. Why are you evading this question?

    Posted by AIG | May 30, 2012, 5:48 pm
  49. Obama’s position:
    “Instead, on December 17, 2009, the Obama administration carried out one of the most lethal uses of cluster munitions possible—a cruise missile attack in Yemen that killed 44 innocent civilians, including 14 women, 21 children, and 14 people alleged to be “militants.” This was perhaps the first use of a cruise missile as a delivery system, rather than a bomb or artillery shell, expanding the weapon into the realm of targeted assassination.”

    The facts are clear.

    Posted by AIG | May 30, 2012, 5:51 pm
  50. Israel and Canada to bolster military ties

    http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jjVc_LSSDwMtxfBec73I4K6wsbbQ?docId=CNG.057d302485046d67eb1dd7cc8372265e.ac1

    Israel fights like a western army. If you have a problem with that, change the way your army fights. Why would your army be so keen on cooperating deeply with “thugs”?

    Posted by AIG | May 30, 2012, 6:02 pm
  51. Israel and Canada are extremely close:
    http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=6353

    How do you explain you country’s close relationship with “thugs”?
    Worse, what have you done to change this attitude? Nothing as usual. Again I ask, does your life insurance policy not cover lobbying your own government? Are there lions and bears on the streets in Ottawa? What is your excuse now for not doing anything to help Lebanon with activities in Canada?

    Posted by AIG | May 30, 2012, 6:17 pm
  52. You have just said that Obama is a thug like Assad’s thug that murdered the people in Houla. Did you not?

    Obama’s position:
    “Instead, on December 17, 2009, the Obama administration carried out one of the most lethal uses of cluster munitions possible—a cruise missile attack in Yemen that killed 44 innocent civilians, including 14 women, 21 children, and 14 people alleged to be “militants.” This was perhaps the first use of a cruise missile as a delivery system, rather than a bomb or artillery shell, expanding the weapon into the realm of targeted assassination.”

    Obama’s position is what he personally votes on. That is the basis of the judgement.

    What is the relevance of this snippet on a cruise missles. I am not clear from this snippet if the civilians died because of duds or because the cruise missile was fired at a building they happened to be in.

    You have not answered my question: What is this valuable advice that you would give the Lebanese to take care of Israel? You know, those methods that you would use if you were Lebanese and Israeli dropped cluster munitions of you. Why are you evading this question?

    I didn’t realize I evaded the question. I shifted the question back to you. You never answered. Are you Selfish? And if not.. what advice have you given the Lebanese on how to clear the duds you so very kindly dropped on them?

    You just classified the majority of Americans as “thugs”.

    Until such time that a referendum on the topic is held in the US and we know what the majority of Americans support and do not support, you cannot make such an asinine comment.

    I didn’t even accuse the majority of Israelis of being thugs. I don’t know what the majority of Israelis support or do not support. I accused you of being a thug for your personal position 😀

    What makes you crazy is categorizing people who are not against banning them “thugs” and putting them in the same category as people who murder children in cold blood.

    First Degree, Second Degree Murderers are all murderers. Just because you are a thug, and there are American thugs, and I describe you as such, shouldn’t make you upset. If you are thug who supports killing children- be proud of who you are. Just don’t complain about Syrian thugs. If you are a lesser degree thug because you didn’t personally slit little Lebanese Pierre’s throat, and instead you killed him with indifference to the duds you left in his backyard.. doesn’t make you not a thug.

    Posted by Gabriel | May 30, 2012, 6:18 pm
  53. “Obama’s position is what he personally votes on. That is the basis of the judgement.”

    What nonsense. Obama ordered this attack with cluster munitions therefore he is for using them.
    Is Obama a thug, yes or no? Is the US military a thuggish one?

    “I didn’t realize I evaded the question. I shifted the question back to you. You never answered. Are you Selfish? And if not.. what advice have you given the Lebanese on how to clear the duds you so very kindly dropped on them?”

    Shifting the question is evading. But to humor you, of course I am selfish to a certain extent. I never claimed not to be. It is you who is spouting all the moral nonsense. So, what is your advice to the Lebanese how to deal with Israel, this method that you would use if you were them. We are waiting. Or are you willing to admit that again you are just full of hot air and no substance?

    Governments represent people in democratic country. The election is the referendum, and you are evading as usual the clear conclusion of what you say and that most Americans are thugs because there is a clear majority in the US that is for cluster munitions.

    You already showed your crazy. It won’t help you to start backtracking. I am not upset you call me a thug, I am amused because it gave me the opportunity to show how crazy you are and how you lack any sense of proportion. The majority of the US congress and Obama are thugs for you. Again, way to go sane person.

    Posted by AIG | May 30, 2012, 6:30 pm
  54. “What nonsense. Obama ordered this attack with cluster munitions therefore he is for using them.”

    The article said the Obama administration. How do you know what Obama personally ordered or did not order. Do you think he specified to his military people what weapons to use? Do you think Obama personally micromanages to this level?

    Perhaps you should invite him to QN’s forum and ask him the question about how he feels about the duds!

    “Shifting the question is evading. But to humor you, of course I am selfish to a certain extent. I never claimed not to be. It is you who is spouting all the moral nonsense.”

    So you’re a Selfish thug 🙂

    Good to know. And when did I ever claim not to be Selfish. I only claim not to be a thug.

    I spouted no moral non-sense. You have yet to answer: Since you give Israel moral license to kill children, why are you denying Bashar the same luxury? Please answer. This question has lingered for many comments and you are here accusing me of evading!

    “The election is the referendum”

    Really? So why hold referendums at all? You think people in democracies elect people based on their positions on all issues? Do you think the Liberals, Tories, NDP and whatnot in Canada were facing off against each other regarding their position on the use of Cluster bombs in war?

    I would not be so callous as to assume that any Israeli I see holds a certain position only because his government holds that position.

    You have a choice not to be thug AIG.

    You can choose to be better!

    🙂

    Do the right thing!

    Posted by Gabriel | May 30, 2012, 6:47 pm
  55. What a boondoggle (for your birth country) the Lavi turned out to be.

    Lally,

    I am 100% American, born and raised here. Of course, I have a special place in my heart for Israel, like I’m sure you do for Palestine.

    If you recall, the US was getting worried that the Lavi would compete with the F-16. You don’t compete with the US on fighter planes like the F-16. It took a LOT of arm twisting, and the usual suspect won: the US. The wings, BTW, were built in the US, along with other major portions of the airframe.

    It was my very first job out of college. Now you know how old I am!

    Posted by Akbar Palace | May 30, 2012, 7:22 pm
  56. A Palace.

    Don’t try to hasbarawash that one. It’s too damn easy to get the real story from someone with actual credibility on the Lavi saga:

    http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/3fal90.htm

    Must have been exciting for you at that age tho….Did you get paid a stipend or was it some sort of Birthright type program or like one of those specialized summer volunteer programs for diaspora wannabes who aspire to playing IDF warrior in complete safely?

    Posted by lally | May 30, 2012, 9:27 pm
  57. AIG:

    Very fitting that I just read this on the BBC:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18270490

    Perhaps you can read the article and appreciate the difference between you and Obama..

    “US President Barack Obama personally approves every single drone strike against suspected terrorists, so he can take full moral responsibility for the deaths these cause.”

    Perhaps this sentence summarizes the difference between one who takes the question of moral responsibility for death in war seriously, and the moral depravity of ahem, a certain AIG who has no moral reservations about duds that he leaves behind in other peoples’ countries.

    Posted by Gabriel | May 30, 2012, 11:54 pm
  58. So now you have been able to fully contradict yourself! If Obama approves personally every single drone strike, he approved the drone strike with cluster munitions, and therefore according to you, he is a thug. Why would I want to learn from a thug? Your whole view that the Obama administration supports cluster weapons but Obama doesn’t is crazy. Obama is the person that decides the policies of the Obama administration.

    According to you Harper is a thug. Therefore the Canadian people democratically elected a thug. What does that say about the Canadian people according to you? Only thugs elect thugs. Decent people do not elect or support thugs. Your view is therefore that most Canadians are thugs.

    The Canadian military has deepened its ties with the IDF. Since you think the IDF are thugs, you most also think your military is made of thugs because it has close ties with Israel.

    You also think Lebanese are mindless wimps. That is because you stated that if you were Lebanese you would know how to take care of Israel (but fortunately for me, you added, you are Canadian). Not only do you think Lebanese are incompetent fools, in spite of me asking numerous times, you are not willing to tell the Lebanese how to take care of Israel. Why are you so mean to the Lebanese? Give them the secret.

    Also it turns out that Israel is a close ally of Israel and not of Lebanon. Yet you praise Canada and deride Israel. Why do you praise Canada if it is such a close ally of Israel? And you cannot influence Canadian positions, proof again of how incompetent you are. But why would you be able to influence Canadians if you think they are thugs?

    And of course, let’s remind everyone that you admitted that even if Lebanese are massacred, you would not do anything to help showing the ultimate moral depravity. You of course argued that it was moral for you to ignore those massacres because you can’t risk dying. You of course did not even realize that when you made this grotesque statement you were spitting in the faces of the soldiers in the Lebanese army who are willing to risk their life to protect Lebanese.

    Combine everything together and what do we have? You have no morals and no substance. Just hot air and a bunch of crazy ideas.

    Posted by AIG | May 31, 2012, 1:40 am
  59. Don’t try to hasbarawash that one. It’s too damn easy to get the real story from someone with actual credibility on the Lavi saga

    Lally,

    Not trying to “hasbarwash” anything, and your link is fine and goes into much more detail than I had the patience for. I also remember that a US defense spending expert (interestingly, an orthodox jew), Dov Zakheim, was used to pressure the Israelis to end the project:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dov_Zakheim

    Like I said, it was very political. IMHO, the US did not want anything to compete with the F-16, and the US won. Perhaps, in the end, that was the “best” outcome for all parties, but I think Israel would have stood to gain a lot by having their own Israeli-made fighter. And then they could have sold it to other countries. This wasn’t “going to fly” for any US administration.

    Must have been exciting for you at that age tho….Did you get paid a stipend or was it some sort of Birthright type program or like one of those specialized summer volunteer programs for diaspora wannabes who aspire to playing IDF warrior in complete safely?

    Let’s just say it was an eye-opening experience for a new engineer right out of school. I got paid nearly nothing. I was young and naive and I just wanted work experience – I had no clue about salary, and so I got none. The job was set-up by a “shali’akh”, an Israeli government rep who specializes in bringing jews to Israel who want to immigrate. Nowadays, there is Nefesh B’nefesh.

    Birthright is just a way to affordably bring young jewish kids to Israel and teach them about the country and their heritage. It’s about a 1 month program. My nieces did it, and enjoyed it.

    I don’t know what “diaspora wannabe” is. Most jews have never set foot in Israel; but of course, that doesn’t necessarily mean they don’t support Israel.

    Some high school graduates do a year in Israel and there are a few options. One bright kid I know did a program in Israel that sent him to several countries around the world to meet other kids his age.

    My cousin’s son (my 2nd cousin?) went to Israel and enrolled in the IDF for 3 years and fought in the last Lebanese war. I attended his wedding in Israel and got to meet some of his army buddies. Apparently, he made some life-long friends.

    I suppose a muslim or christian can go to Israel and meet their respective co-religionists, and see the sights in Israel as well; donate money, volunteer, etc just like jews do. In fact, at the kibbutz I was at, I met a really nice christian girl who was trying to convert me to christianity. She introduced me to a few of her christian friends in Haifa. Those damned christian zionists!;)

    hasbarwashingly yours,

    AP

    Posted by Akbar Palace | May 31, 2012, 7:19 am
  60. AIG:

    You really are strange. Is that what you took from the article (and embedded NYTImes article)? Really?

    It is an article about someone who takes moral responsibility for the choices they make. Obama purports to take moral responsibility for the death of children under his hands- you don’t! That’s the bottom line.

    You are desperately trying to turn this conversation into that something that it is not. It is NOT a discussion on Cluster Bombs. It is NOT a discussion on America and Canada and Israel. It is a discussion about Killing Children, when and if it is acceptable, about passing judgement on Bashar.

    You tried to shift the discussion on your own personal moral depravity- demonstrated clearly when you said you don’t give a Rat’s a$$ about the children that die due to duds you dropped on Lebanese soil by bringing in Obama. Obama- this article says- accepts moral responsibility for his actions. You don’t.

    Therefore. You are a Selfish Thug. Obama is Not.

    Whether or not Harper accepts moral responsibility for civilian deaths (he has not caused), he is still a Thug in my books for altogether different reasons! We won’t get into that here and further cloud the space that QN gives us with nonsense.

    So let’s repeat:

    You are a Selfish Thug- no different from the thugs of Syria. Obama is Not.

    Don’t compare Israel to the US. There is no real comparison. The US is fighting a war actively in AfPak. The people who the drones are targeting are supposedly directing actual attacks against Americans.

    You seem to justify Israel’s action against Lebanon simply because the two countries are officially in a “State” of war. There is no active fighting going on.

    And if there is any “Cassus Belli”- you have repeated multiple times that it is Israel behind those. You did so by conceding:
    1) Unlike all the other wars which were not of Israel’s choosing, the invasion of Lebanon was of Israel’s choosing
    2) The never-ending overflights- which you conceded many times were Cassus belli in your view
    3) The brutal occupation of Lebanese territory

    Despite what is clearly a case of an Aggressor nation bullying a retarded one… you took it upon yourself to give yourself moral “right” to rain Cluster bombs (not just rain- but a thunderstorm) on Lebanese soil. KNOWING fully well that the technology has not yet demonstrated an acceptable dud rate, and KNOWING fully well that the duds can kill and maim children many years to come.

    Why? Because Hizballah kidnapped a soldier or two? A right they have given that you conceded the never-ending Cassus Bellis you keep providing them!

    And still despite ALL of this. Despite the clear differences between the US example, and the Israeli one. Despite the fact that if the US were to say they do the utmost to protect civilians, and an article I posted that suggested that Obama takes PERSONAL MORAL RESPONSIBILITY for every death the Americans cause. You come here and you take none. The SHAME. You are DESPICABLE.

    The point of me stringing you along in this asinine discussion. And yes, I was stringing you along, and yes it is an asinine discussion.. is to demonstrate to you, and with your own words how empty your initial reference to INTENT was.

    Yes AIG. You are no different from the people who personally slit the throats of children. Actually, you may be a little worse, because you don’t have the Balls to do the deed yourself.

    7el 3an teezee.

    Posted by Gabriel | May 31, 2012, 8:02 am
  61. I am enjoying watcging Gabriel kicking zionist butt. Woohoo!

    Posted by dontgetit | May 31, 2012, 8:18 am
  62. Let’s stop talking about Cluster bombs, and take this convo Back to Bashar.

    AIG. Why do you give yourself moral license to kill children, and deny that same license to Bashar?

    1) Is it because Bashar’s henchmen allegedly slit children’s throats, while you kill them with your bombs?

    2) Is it because you feel that as a Jew, you have moral license to kill children when those children are non-Jews (and you justify killing them by saying you do so to protect the lives of Jews), while Bashar is an Arab, and he kills his own community’s children?

    3) If Bashar’s henchmen were Alawis and the children they kill are all Sunnis, would that, based on the logic of point 2 above, make it OK in your books for his henchmen to kill those children (if he argues much as you do that he is doing it to protect Alawi children’s lives)?

    Why have you not answered this question yet? We need to get to the bottom of this. Please don’t evade the question!

    Posted by Gabriel | May 31, 2012, 8:36 am
  63. …and the love affair continues.:D
    How on earth did the topic change? Slippery and evading answers by goons of Israel…Then they wonder why even moderates like moi would not trust them. They bomb he country to kingdom come then have the audacity to demand us to clean their tools of mass murder (cluster bombs).

    I have my answer after all. You deserve to live in fear. Lakhayem

    Posted by danny | May 31, 2012, 8:39 am
  64. Then they wonder why even moderates like moi would not trust them.

    Danny,

    Just to understand you better, why do you consider yourself a “moderate”? What is it you don’t “trust” about Israel? If Israel never used cluster bombs, but instead used some other method to destroy mobile missile lauchers, would you feel differently?

    AP

    Posted by Akbar Palace | May 31, 2012, 8:56 am
  65. I am enjoying watcging Gabriel kicking zionist butt. Woohoo!

    dontgetit,

    Me too. Gabriel’s sense of “honor” and “morality” is typical of the pro-arab street.

    Look around and bask in the “cesspool” you and Gabriel call home.

    Posted by Akbar Palace | May 31, 2012, 9:08 am
  66. AP,

    If you read AIG’s comments and your acceptance of it…you’ll get the picture. I really don’t have time or patience like Gabriel to go back and forth! The question was simple regarding the cluster bombs. They are tools of mass murder when used in civilian populated areas (for years…). The mentality of so called atheist aig from Israel is laid out in open when he boasts about the bomblets and shrugs it off as duds and then goes on to suggest that we are not honorable because we are not going down to clean up his barbarity! Nothing more to be said to reveal the true mindset of aig. I hope all Israelis are not so savage and criminal in their thinking!

    Posted by danny | May 31, 2012, 9:57 am
  67. Gabriel,

    You have outdone yourself with your latest pile of rubbish.

    You raised the issue of cluster munitions and the Convention to use them, not I. And of course you didn’t check to see that neither the US nor Canada has ratified the Convention and that the views of Obama and Harper on this issue are exactly like mine. So you scored a self goal because now you have to define Obama as a thug also and even you realize how crazy this looks.

    Israel killed Lebanese children unintentionally just as Obama kills Afghan and Pakistani kids unintentionally. Israel has the same right as Obama to use these weapons even if they cause collateral damage. Israel shot its cluster munitions to try stop Hezbollah firing rockets at our cities. That is completely different than a thug shooting a civilian on purpose. Israel was not shooting at civilians, it was shooting at Hezbollah fighters. If you don’t see the difference, you are blind. But both Obama and Harper do see the difference, so go convince your fellow Canadians and Americans first if you want a chance to convince anyone with your crazy notions. Israel like Obama, has a moral license to target its enemies even if in some cases there is collateral damage. Israel does not have a license to go into villages and shot civilians and that is what Assad’s thugs are doing.

    There is absolutely no difference between what Obama is doing in Afghanistan and what Israel did in Lebanon. 2006 was a clear case of war, thousands of rockets were falling in Israeli cities, it was much worse than what Americans face in Afghanistan. And as countries go, Lebanon is more advanced than Afghanistan and Hezbollah is a better fighting force than the Taliban and much better funded. So all those points you raise are just stupid. If anything, Israel is more justified than Obama.

    If you can’t control Hezbollah, don’t complain when they burn your country. Keep them on their side of the border. Why would we start a war if they “just” killed two soldiers on our side of the border? How dumb can you be to ask such a question? This is EXACTLY why you fight wars, so idiots like you will know the consequences for murdering Israelis. And in fact you learned your lesson. That border has been very quiet for many years. And nobody is talking about the Sheba farms any more.

    I am still waiting for you to tell the Lebanese your plan to take care of the Israelis. I am beginning to suspect that it is BS without any substance just like your other musings. You are not even doing anything in Canada to change the views of your own government which supports Israel’s actions! How pathetic can you be? Are you also afraid to go to Ottawa?

    Posted by AIG | May 31, 2012, 9:57 am
  68. Danny,

    Wow, you are another Arab moderate! Woop de doo! I am coming to learn that Arab moderate means someone in Canada the sits around and twiddles his thumb.

    Who care what you think or believe if your influence on the ground is zero? You write “let them live in fear” as if you could change the situation so that there would not be hostility. How more self deluded can you be? Not only are you impotent in changing anything in Lebanon (and often admit to giving up), you also cannot change the views of your own government! You are just hot air like Gabriel.

    And of course you guys are incompetent for letting the dud situation in Lebanon linger for so long. I do not boast about the duds and I am sad there were so many. But it is clear to anyone with a smidgen of common sense that if your house is messed up, you need to clean it instead of twiddle your thumbs and moralize. There is nothing savage or criminal about my thinking. I did not ask you to repair the town of Kiryat Shmone into which you shot 1000+ missiles some of them cluster munitions. We repaired it and cleaned it ourselves and not ONE person was hurt there from ordnance that did not explode. What we did was moral, we saved lives. What you did is immoral because instead of dong the work to save lives you decided to bitch about it.

    Posted by AIG | May 31, 2012, 10:09 am
  69. AIG:

    Please click on the following link. It is where the discussion started.

    https://qifanabki.com/2012/05/21/the-number-one-sunni-in-lebanon/#comment-35722

    You will see that all posts prior to that, I did not address you. YOU started the conversation. YOU defined the conversation. It was about Honor and Dead Children. You can confirm this statement by scrolling for posts above.

    It seems you don’t really want to discuss this topic. Only to play games.

    Now with your Cursor on that post, do a Search for “Cluster”. You will find that I DID NOT bring up Cluster bombs. Danny did.

    I simply used the question of Cluster Bombs to demonstrate to you that you are an Endemic LIAR.

    So please, in future, do not spew lies such as:

    You raised the issue of cluster munitions and the Convention to use them

    Capisce?

    Now stop evading the question.

    Obama takes PERSONAL MORAL RESPONSIBILITY for Civilian deaths caused by American bombs (be they cluster bombs or otherwise). Maybe he is insincere in that, but at least in words, he is MAN ENOUGH to take PERSONAL MORAL RESPONSIBILITY.

    Now will you, AIG, take PERSONAL MORAL RESPONSIBILITY for the death of Children caused by Duds you leave on Lebanese soil?

    YES or NO?

    Also,

    Since you have so artfully given yourself license to MURDER children (we have yet to see if you accept or do not accept MORAL RESPONSIBILITY for the fact)…

    Why do you not give the same license to Bashar and his henchmen?

    Why can’t you answer this question?

    It is after all the topic YOU STARTED!

    Now either answer the question or Eff-Off

    Posted by Gabriel | May 31, 2012, 11:34 am
  70. That will not work Gabriel, you cannot change the topic when it is not to your liking.
    You cannot ask stupid questions and when you get answers you don’t like or understand just ask them again.
    All your questions on Bashar’s thugs were answered in my previous post. You are incapable of understanding that killing someone as a consequence of collateral damage is not murder. It is not murder when Obama does it and it is not murder when Israel does it. Unless you want to call Obama a murderer. Since you have already crossed the threshold into crazy many posts ago, I would not be surprised. When kid’s throats are slit, that is not accident and can only be intentional. It is murder. When soldiers enter into a house and line up people and shot them it is murder. Shooting soldiers that surrendered is murder. But unintentionally harming innocents while targeting fighters is not murder. If it is, Obama is a murderer. And if you believe that, just say it.

    And enough with you childish lying. You did not “raise” the question of cluster munitions, you “used” it, and of course yo were the first one to raise the issue of the Convention, of course without checking that Canada and the US had not ratified it. You used a stupid tactic and it backfired and it showed how bankrupt and crazy your views are. Canada and the US have the same views on cluster munitions as I do. You can spin it any way you like, but if your views make any sense why can’t you even convince Canadians and Americans?

    And you keep evading this question:
    I am still waiting for you to tell the Lebanese your plan to take care of the Israelis. I am beginning to suspect that it is BS without any substance just like your other musings. You are not even doing anything in Canada to change the views of your own government which supports Israel’s actions! How pathetic can you be? Are you also afraid to go to Ottawa?

    Posted by AIG | May 31, 2012, 11:49 am
  71. The question is clear. I want a clear answer. None of your winding BS. The question is:

    https://qifanabki.com/2012/05/21/the-number-one-sunni-in-lebanon/#comment-36024

    and I repeat it here:

    AIG. Why do you give yourself moral license to kill children, and deny that same license to Bashar?

    1) Is it because Bashar’s henchmen allegedly slit children’s throats, while you kill them with your bombs?

    2) Is it because you feel that as a Jew, you have moral license to kill children when those children are non-Jews (and you justify killing them by saying you do so to protect the lives of Jews), while Bashar is an Arab, and he kills his own community’s children?

    3) If Bashar’s henchmen were Alawis and the children they kill are all Sunnis, would that, based on the logic of point 2 above, make it OK in your books for his henchmen to kill those children (if he argues much as you do that he is doing it to protect Alawi children’s lives)?

    Do I take it from the following line:

    When kid’s throats are slit, that is not accident and can only be intentional.

    That your answer is (1) above?

    Please be explicit.

    Posted by Gabriel | May 31, 2012, 12:03 pm
  72. AIG

    PS… If it makes you feel better to confirm the answer is (1).. you may rephrase the option to read…

    “1) Is it because Bashar’s henchmen allegedly slit children’s throats, while you unintentionally kill them with your bombs?”

    Posted by Gabriel | May 31, 2012, 12:20 pm
  73. You are a prize idiot. I clearly answered your question several times. I have a license to attack military targets even if there is a chance that children will be harmed. It is not only me that has this license, it is anyone. That is what the US and Canada do, and that is what Israel does. Bashar’s thugs are killing children intentionally. Killing children intentionally is murder. Killing children in war as collateral damage is not. It is not good, but it is an inevitable part of fighting modern wars.

    And you still have no answered my question:
    I am still waiting for you to tell the Lebanese your plan to take care of the Israelis. I am beginning to suspect that it is BS without any substance just like your other musings. You are not even doing anything in Canada to change the views of your own government which supports Israel’s actions! How pathetic can you be? Are you also afraid to go to Ottawa?

    Posted by AIG | May 31, 2012, 12:24 pm
  74. And once and for all you may tell us if Obama has a “license” to order drone attacks if there is a chance children will be killed? Yes or no? Any answer to me, begin with an answer to this question.

    Posted by AIG | May 31, 2012, 12:26 pm
  75. Learning about Arab Moderates NewZ

    Danny,

    You still didn’t say what a “moderate” means to you. How are arab moderates different than those that aren’t?

    Do arab “moderates” believe Israel has a right to self-defence like any other sovereign nation, or do arab moderates think Israel is going beyond some standard of warfare that almost no other free nation has gone to? Do you believe the GOI acted illegally against the Marmara? Do you believe IDF acted in self-defence? Do you think the participants on the Marmara tried to injure the IDF personnel?

    Posted by Akbar Palace | May 31, 2012, 12:45 pm
  76. AIG:

    I asked you to be explicit and I gave you options. (1), (2) or (3) (or more if none apply). I want an explicit confirmation.

    I accept that you have given me long-winded responses to get lost in. But I want something succinct, to build on of course.

    Please don’t bring up Obama. We’ve established that Obama takes moral responsibility for the murder of children due to drone attacks he orders. We’ve also established that you are UNWILLING to say explicitly whether or not you take moral responsibility for the death of children caused by his drone attacks. So there is no reason for you to try and ride on Obama’s coattails. Unless of course you want to give an explicit answer on whether or not you take PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY for the death of children caused by your duds.

    We can discuss Obama further later. But first, let’s get back to the Syria question, and a simple confirmation from you on whether the answer is (1), (2), (3), (None of the Above).

    Posted by Gabriel | May 31, 2012, 12:46 pm
  77. Gabriel,

    If you don’t answer the question about Obama, you are just an idiot posing irrelevant questions. The Obama question is crucial, because if Obama has license to do what he does according to you, then Israel does also. It is that simple, so make up your mind.

    I answered your questions explicitly and accurately. If your intent is to kill a child of any religion or nationality you are a murderer and it does not matter what method you use, bomb or knife. If you target a military target and inadvertently kill children, it is not murder and anyone has a license to do so.

    Posted by AIG | May 31, 2012, 12:58 pm
  78. Alright. So I’ll accept that as answer (1).

    We can carry on.

    Some time back, you and I were talking here about pipelines and whether the Syrian opposition was in fact responsible for those attacks. I asked you, at the time, why the Opposition does not claim responsibility for those actions and instead blames the Regime for them.

    You said: It is common sense. The opposition should strike militarily, and should blame the regime so as not to alienate the fence-sitters.

    Recall that conversation?

    So I ask you now about Houla. How do you know, and I mean KNOW, that the regime Slit the throat of children. Were you there? Did you witness it?

    If you allow for the possibility that the FSA lies about bombing a pipeline and accept it as smart Strategic actions, then are you here stating- without any doubt that:

    It is not at all possible that the children in Houla died as a result of “bombing” from the Syrian army, and that their throats were slit after the fact by the Opposition in order to paint a picture of the Regime as being Child Murderers

    Please answer:

    1) You are 100% certain that it was without a doubt Regime agents responsible for Slitting the throats of Children in Houla.

    2) You are Partially Certain that it was without a doubt Regime agents responsible for Slitting the throats of Children in Houla.

    3) You are 0% certain that it was without a doubt Regime agents responsible for Slitting the throats of Children in Houla.

    If the answer is 2) or 3)… what is your basis of accusing the Assad regime of being thuggish?

    Posted by Gabriel | May 31, 2012, 1:06 pm
  79. No Good Deed Goes Unpunished NewZ

    More wacky news from those crazy Zionists

    Israel has handed over to the Palestinian Authority the remains of 91 Palestinians who died carrying out attacks against Israel.

    The remains include suicide bombers and militants who died in operations as far back as 1975.

    The repatriation of the bodies forms part of a deal to end a mass hunger strike by hundreds of Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails.

    Israeli officials say the transfer is a confidence-building gesture.

    However, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas has given no indication that he is willing to return to talks.

    Coffins containing the remains, which had been interred in numbered graves in an Israeli military cemetery for “enemy combatants”, were handed over at dawn.

    21-gun salute

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18276354

    Posted by Akbar Palace | May 31, 2012, 1:25 pm
  80. We cannot move on until you answer the question on Obama. If you don’t play by your own rules you are just an hypocrite.

    And there are other questions you need to answer before we move on:
    1) Why is the position of the US and Canada like Israel’s on cluster munitions?
    2) Why don’t you tell the Lebanese about your method to deal with Israel?
    3) Why aren’t you willing to save Lebanese from massacres and why do you think your position is moral?
    4) Do you not think it is cowardly to say you are afraid to help because there is a small chance you may get hurt?
    5) If your PM is a thug, what does it say about the people who voted for him.

    And as for your stupid questions, there is never certainty. I guess you are such an incompetent fool because you wait for conclusive proof before doing anything. You are one of those immoral bastards that when 1000 kids die will keep asking for certainty and proof that Assad killed.

    But we cannot go on until you answer my questions above. So get to work. Play by your own rules or slink away.

    Posted by AIG | May 31, 2012, 1:26 pm
  81. EXCUSE ME!

    there is never certainty.

    You mean you are here having an ASININE discussion and YOU ARE NOT CERTAIN!

    You are NOT CERTAIN that Assad’s “thugs” slit ANY CHILD’S THROAT, and yet you came here and INSISTED that he did?

    If all Assad did was kill children by BOMBING Houla, how is that different from what your government does?!?!

    And still you are asking me about Obama! You have the nerve!

    Get out of here!

    Or get serious!

    I want 100% Proof that Assad was in fact responsible for slitting the throat of children before I carry on this asinine discussion with you.

    Until then, you have demonstrated that really, there is no difference between you and Assad or his thugs.

    Posted by Gabriel | May 31, 2012, 1:37 pm
  82. AIG..

    Or of course, you can go back to the drawing board and take another stab (no pun intended) at answering my question.

    AIG. Why do you give yourself moral license to kill children, and deny that same license to Bashar?

    1) Is it because Bashar’s henchmen allegedly slit children’s throats, while you kill them with your bombs?

    2) Is it because you feel that as a Jew, you have moral license to kill children when those children are non-Jews (and you justify killing them by saying you do so to protect the lives of Jews), while Bashar is an Arab, and he kills his own community’s children?

    3) If Bashar’s henchmen were Alawis and the children they kill are all Sunnis, would that, based on the logic of point 2 above, make it OK in your books for his henchmen to kill those children (if he argues much as you do that he is doing it to protect Alawi children’s lives)?

    We have now demonstrated that YOU LIED, and the real reason you don’t give moral license to Bashar to kill children is not because he went and slit the throat of children (you stated you are not in fact CERTAIN he did).

    So let’s try again.

    Why do you give yourself moral license to cause the death of children, and why do you not extend that same right to Bashar?

    Posted by Gabriel | May 31, 2012, 1:47 pm
  83. We cannot move on until you answer the question on Obama. If you don’t play by your own rules you are just an hypocrite.

    And there are other questions you need to answer before we move on:
    1) Why is the position of the US and Canada like Israel’s on cluster munitions?
    2) Why don’t you tell the Lebanese about your method to deal with Israel?
    3) Why aren’t you willing to save Lebanese from massacres and why do you think your position is moral?
    4) Do you not think it is cowardly to say you are afraid to help because there is a small chance you may get hurt?
    5) If your PM is a thug, what does it say about the people who voted for him.

    And as for your stupid questions, there is never certainty. I guess you are such an incompetent fool because you wait for conclusive proof before doing anything. You are one of those immoral bastards that when 1000 kids die will keep asking for certainty and proof that Assad killed.

    But we cannot go on until you answer my questions above. So get to work. Play by your own rules or slink away.

    Posted by AIG | May 31, 2012, 1:49 pm
  84. And let me add another question:
    1) Are you CERTAIN that the children died form Israeli bomblets? How do you know that Hezbollah did not plant them in the night to make Israel look bad? Please show your proof.

    Posted by AIG | May 31, 2012, 1:55 pm
  85. I was surprised to find out, after 4 hours of boring research, that 95% of all the new sovereign degt accumulated by Lebanon between 1993 and 2010 was only for paying the interest. This is big, it means that all this debt burden, and it is huge, does not contribute to any investments in any field in the country. Please keep in mind that this issue is arguably the most significant issue for the future of the country and yet no one is talking about it. There is no doubt in my mind that the sovereign debt in Lebanon will continue to grow and that there is nothing short of a huge find of natural gas that can ever bring this matter under control.

    Posted by Ghassan Karam | May 31, 2012, 1:56 pm
  86. ?!?

    There’s no point to getting to those answers. Right now, it is not immediately clear to me what the difference is between what Assad is doing and what Israel does. Until such time that this difference is clear, what is the point of even taking a stab at answering your questions?

    For example:

    You ask : “Why don’t you tell the Lebanese about your method to deal with Israel?”

    How could I possibly answer this question. If Israel truly attacked Lebanon to protect itself and Israel has the right to protect itself. If Israel caused the death of children as a result of its right to protect itself, On what basis can I complain about this? Surely, if Israel had a moral right to do so, then I have no credible leg to stand on!

    By that same token, I question why you are so eager to deal with Assad! His forces are being attacked by the FSA! And he is bombing their military positions. Yet you come here and cry when children die in those areas! You don’t cry when Lebanese children die when Israel bombs Lebanon (because you don’t think it is morally reprehensible), but you come here and cry for those Syrian children!

    There is no way I can have a meaningful and coherent discussion with you on the topic unless I better understand your values on the topic. To date, you have demonstrated no moral difference between Assad’s actions and Israel’s actions. And your attempt at doing so depended on some detail that you later claimed you are not certain of (throat slitting)!

    You have different rules it seems for Jews and Arabs.

    Posted by Gabriel | May 31, 2012, 1:58 pm
  87. 1) Are you CERTAIN that the children died form Israeli bomblets? How do you know that Hezbollah did not plant them in the night to make Israel look bad? Please show your proof.

    I am not at all certain of that fact. In fact, the Israelis that come on television justifying their various attacks on civilian population centers routinely accuse the Arabs of exaggerating and concocting horror stories about Israelis.

    Given your tremendous experience with the Arab peoples’ penchant for lies and lying, I was taken aback by your insistence that Assad’s thugs were in fact slitting childrens’ throats!

    I thought surely, being on the receiving end of our lies, you would take such stories with a grain of salt!

    But apparently not.

    So please… the floor is yours.

    Explain to me why you have not given Bashar moral license to kill Children!

    Posted by Gabriel | May 31, 2012, 2:05 pm
  88. We cannot move on until you answer the question on Obama. If you don’t play by your own rules you are just an hypocrite.

    And you need to answer this question also: If you are not certain the kids died because of Israeli bombs, why are you and Danny accusing Israelis of being murderers and thugs?

    And why can’t you answer question 2 below? It is not related to my values, it is for the benefit of Lebanese. So just tell them you secret how to deal with Israel. We cannot move on until you do.

    And there are other questions you need to answer before we move on:
    1) Why is the position of the US and Canada like Israel’s on cluster munitions?
    2) Why don’t you tell the Lebanese about your method to deal with Israel?
    3) Why aren’t you willing to save Lebanese from massacres and why do you think your position is moral?
    4) Do you not think it is cowardly to say you are afraid to help because there is a small chance you may get hurt?
    5) If your PM is a thug, what does it say about the people who voted for him.

    And as for your stupid questions, there is never certainty. I guess you are such an incompetent fool because you wait for conclusive proof before doing anything. You are one of those immoral bastards that when 1000 kids die will keep asking for certainty and proof that Assad killed.

    But we cannot go on until you answer my questions above. So get to work. Play by your own rules or slink away.

    Posted by AIG | May 31, 2012, 2:23 pm
  89. If you are not certain the kids died because of Israeli bombs, why are you and Danny accusing Israelis of being murderers and thugs?

    Please don’t ask me to speak for Danny. Ask Danny what you want to ask him. He never said he is not certain the kids died because of Israeli bombs, and so is not bound by my words!

    As for my accusations… I didn’t accuse Israelis of being murderers and thugs. To prove this, please read the following post again:

    https://qifanabki.com/2012/05/21/the-number-one-sunni-in-lebanon/#comment-36005

    I accused YOU of being a thug, and an IMMORAL one at that. I did so because you said that personally did not care if your Duds killed Israeli children. So what does it matter if those children died because of Israeli duds or not. You are an immoral THUG because you don’t care if they did die because of those duds!

    Obama at least says he takes moral responsibility for the death of children.

    You have not even said that much!

    That’s what I complained about!

    And why can’t you answer question 2 below? It is not related to my values, it is for the benefit of Lebanese.

    Don’t concern yourself with what I tell Lebanese people and what I do for the benefit of the Lebanese people. Concern yourself with my conversation with you.

    You should consider it gracious of me to allow you the benefit of respecting your value system.

    I am willing to accept that I may be placing undue expectations on you based on my value system, and I don’t think that is necessarily fair.

    So I give you the benefit of the doubt and say that I will judge you on your value system.

    But so far, you don’t seem to have a consistent value system. You have one set of rules for Arabs and another set of rules for Jews.

    So until you answer my question, I see no point in addressing this question, or any of the others… because it is pointless.

    Posted by Gabriel | May 31, 2012, 2:40 pm
  90. We cannot move on until you answer the question on Obama. If you don’t play by your own rules you are just an hypocrite.

    And you need to answer this question also: If you are not certain the kids died because of Israeli bombs, why did you accuse me of being a thug? I never said I never cared if children were killed by duds. You are just lying?

    And why can’t you answer question 2 below? It is not related to my values, it is for the benefit of Lebanese. So just tell them you secret how to deal with Israel. We cannot move on until you do. You made a claim, back it up or admit your a liar.

    And there are other questions you need to answer before we move on:
    1) Why is the position of the US and Canada like Israel’s on cluster munitions?
    2) Why don’t you tell the Lebanese about your method to deal with Israel?
    3) Why aren’t you willing to save Lebanese from massacres and why do you think your position is moral?
    4) Do you not think it is cowardly to say you are afraid to help because there is a small chance you may get hurt?
    5) If your PM is a thug, what does it say about the people who voted for him.

    And as for your stupid questions, there is never certainty. I guess you are such an incompetent fool because you wait for conclusive proof before doing anything. You are one of those immoral bastards that when 1000 kids die will keep asking for certainty and proof that Assad killed.

    But we cannot go on until you answer my questions above. So get to work. Play by your own rules or slink away.

    Posted by AIG | May 31, 2012, 2:47 pm
  91. Guys, this is getting unpleasant. Chill out.

    Posted by Qifa Nabki | May 31, 2012, 3:00 pm
  92. Are you copying and pasting AIG at this point?

    Really?

    I never said I never cared if children were killed by duds. You are just lying?

    I don’t have the patience to restart this who asinine discussion. Here’s an example:

    https://qifanabki.com/2012/05/21/the-number-one-sunni-in-lebanon/#comment-35810

    I told you I don’t care about Arab kids and here you are asking why you should care any more than I do!

    So Yes AIG, you don’t care about the Children that YOUR duds killed. If you did… you would do something about it.

    I have license to NOT care about the children that die. I DID NOT LEAVE DUDS IN THEIR BACKYARDS!

    You LEFT DUDS in their backyards. So when YOUR DUDS kill them.. you should care.

    But you don’t.

    So please don’t accuse me of LYING. If you are embarrassed by the APPALLING, MORALLY REPREHENSIBLE show you’ve put on in this forum… change your position. Don’t act like a child.

    Posted by Gabriel | May 31, 2012, 3:12 pm
  93. My apologies QN. I’ll stop now.

    Posted by Gabriel | May 31, 2012, 3:13 pm
  94. I asked why I should care about Lebanese kids killed by duds more than you and your answer it seems is that you don’t care about Lebanese kids! You are an immoral bastard. Plus only an idiot would interpret the question as meaning I don’t care. And if you do care about Lebanese kids, why did you not bother to clean up the duds quickly? So you are either an immoral bastard for not caring about Lebanese kids or you are an incompetent immoral bastard for not cleaning up the duds quickly. So do you care about Lebanese kids killed by duds, yes or no?

    We cannot move on until you answer the question on Obama. If you don’t play by your own rules you are just an hypocrite.

    And why can’t you answer question 2 below? It is not related to my values, it is for the benefit of Lebanese. So just tell them you secret how to deal with Israel. We cannot move on until you do. You made a claim, back it up or admit your a liar.

    And there are other questions you need to answer before we move on:
    1) Why is the position of the US and Canada like Israel’s on cluster munitions?
    2) Why don’t you tell the Lebanese about your method to deal with Israel?
    3) Why aren’t you willing to save Lebanese from massacres and why do you think your position is moral?
    4) Do you not think it is cowardly to say you are afraid to help because there is a small chance you may get hurt?
    5) If your PM is a thug, what does it say about the people who voted for him.

    And as for your stupid questions, there is never certainty. I guess you are such an incompetent fool because you wait for conclusive proof before doing anything. You are one of those immoral bastards that when 1000 kids die will keep asking for certainty and proof that Assad killed.

    But we cannot go on until you answer my questions above. So get to work. Play by your own rules or slink away.

    Posted by AIG | May 31, 2012, 3:24 pm
  95. AP,

    I said moderate. I did not distinguish or lump myself with “Arabs”. I am Lebanese moderate. That’s distinction one. Second; except for your deranged fellow on this blog; I was hoping that the majority of Israelis don’t think that the use of cluster bombs are a good idea.
    If you are taking a poll on all “questionable” practices of IDF you might be in for longer list than those. I believe in Israel’s right of existence but with respect to other nations of self determination including those of Palestinian people. I do not believe that AIG’s of this world would offer that chance/opportunity for peace. He thinks that Israel is above everybody.

    As for the flotilla; we all know that Israeli forces over reacted. However; I am certain that the Turks did not sail there with humanitarian intentions as they are one of the most suppressive nations when it comes to human rights of minorities.

    If you have been following my comments; you would see where I stand. I do not blindly follow a party or attack Israel for the hell of it. We self criticize (some of us self loath lol)…We do not subscribe to the supposed morality of Israeli guys.

    Posted by danny | May 31, 2012, 3:26 pm
  96. AIG:

    I’m an immoral, incompetent, morally reprehensible, values-devoid, piece of $hit, a$$hole.

    I hope that makes you feel better.

    Posted by Gabriel | May 31, 2012, 3:32 pm
  97. Right Danny,
    Calling Israelis “psychopathic killers” is not moralizing.

    Most Israelis like me think that with hindsight it was a bad idea to use cluster munitions but that before hand that determination could not be made. If that makes us “psychopathic killers”, so be it.

    Posted by AIG | May 31, 2012, 3:42 pm
  98. Gabriel,

    Confessing should make you feel better. If it doesn’t, perhaps you are not sincere enough. Try again. But you are on the right track.

    Posted by AIG | May 31, 2012, 3:43 pm
  99. Last one:

    Statement 1:I never said I never cared if children were killed by duds. You are just lying?

    Statement 2:You are an immoral bastard. Plus only an idiot would interpret the question as meaning I don’t care. And if you do care about Lebanese kids, why did you not bother to clean up the duds quickly? So you are either an immoral bastard for not caring about Lebanese kids or you are an incompetent immoral bastard for not cleaning up the duds quickly.

    So while AIG says that he never actually said he doesn’t care when children die because of HIS duds… it seems that he thinks that the ACT of CARING necessitates action. After all, if he thinks that caring about Lebanese kids necessitates me to “clean up the duds quickly”, why doesn’t he think the same requirement falls on him!

    More so, it is gracious to see that he has given me some leeway. Apparently, if I did go to Lebanon to clear the duds, and I didn’t do it quickly enough or Yehweh forbid, I missed one accidentally… and a child died as a result. That makes me incompetent.

    Truly, AIG “CARES” about those children.

    Comedy Par Excellence!

    AIG- Here’s a humble suggestion for your scientists. Perhaps they can embed GPS chips on all their missiles and duds, and count and serialize each of their cluster bombs. Next time, after they rain duds on Lebanon, perhaps your CARING self may press your government to hand over all the data to the UN… You know… just so that the volunteers clearing your mess don’t inadvertently kill themselves, and their work can finish expeditiously!

    Of course you care.

    QN- here’s a suggestion for your New Look Website. How about a Shrine for AIG… The Israeli who cares Most for the Children of Lebanon!

    Posted by Gabriel | May 31, 2012, 3:48 pm
  100. Danny,

    Thanks for the input. You sound moderate to me dude.;)

    And sorry if the “arab” prefix was inappropriate.

    I do not sense that AIG is stating that the “use of cluster bombs are a good idea”. In fact, he has stated that in hind-sight is was a “bad idea”.

    I personally do not know. The military planners made that decision. AIG offered his personal assessment that they were used because the missiles were on mobile launchers and that areas, not pinpoint targets, needed to be cleared.

    Let’s see if the IDF uses these in the future.

    I usually point out to the 1 ton bomb Israel dropped on an apartment complex to take out a Hamas leader which killed about 12 people. Did the IDF know about his family living there? Did they care?

    They probably made the decision to ignore the civilian casualties. I wouldn’t have done it. I think it was a mistake.

    Personally, AIG’s point, which has been offered for the past few days, is that those who expect Israel to act a certain way (e.g. not using cluster bombs) do not have the same expectation for other countries.

    His other point is that those who have these higher expectations from Israel, do not have these same expectation for their own country, whether that is your current home or the home of your ancestry, birth, or ethnicity. (AIG, you’re free to correct me on this)

    I have to agree with him. As you know, I point out these biases all the time.

    Danny, as a moderate, do you think Israel is held to higher expectations than other countries?

    Posted by Akbar Palace | May 31, 2012, 3:49 pm
  101. Danny,

    BTW – as much as feel you ARE moderate, we all make mistakes. I apologized for using the pre-fix “arab”, when, I should have known non-arabs can be Lebanese.

    But your use of the term “psycopathic killers” for Israelis was inappropriate to my ears as well as AIG’s.

    Posted by Akbar Palace | May 31, 2012, 3:54 pm
  102. Life is what it is and there is no point justifying the mistakes of our forefathers for the mess we have to make do with today to make life a better one for ourselves and our children tomorrow.

    Posted by Monolith | May 31, 2012, 3:58 pm
  103. Gabriel,

    It is very simple. If you care about Lebanese kids you help them, you don’t let the duds stay a long time. And of course the primary responsibility to clear the duds falls on YOU because you are Lebanese and the duds are in Lebanon. Just as the responsibility is mine to clear Hezbollah duds in Israel. You cannot run away form this. If you care, you help. You don’t make excuses about others not doing. Therefore, you are an immoral bastard and a liar to boot. You said you would stop, and then you make another answer. I will bet that you will answer this also, because you are a liar with OCD, which makes you very entertaining.

    We cannot move on until you answer the question on Obama. If you don’t play by your own rules you are just an hypocrite.

    And why can’t you answer question 2 below? It is not related to my values, it is for the benefit of Lebanese. So just tell them you secret how to deal with Israel. We cannot move on until you do. You made a claim, back it up or admit your a liar.

    And there are other questions you need to answer before we move on:
    1) Why is the position of the US and Canada like Israel’s on cluster munitions?
    2) Why don’t you tell the Lebanese about your method to deal with Israel?
    3) Why aren’t you willing to save Lebanese from massacres and why do you think your position is moral?
    4) Do you not think it is cowardly to say you are afraid to help because there is a small chance you may get hurt?
    5) If your PM is a thug, what does it say about the people who voted for him.

    And as for your stupid questions, there is never certainty. I guess you are such an incompetent fool because you wait for conclusive proof before doing anything. You are one of those immoral bastards that when 1000 kids die will keep asking for certainty and proof that Assad killed.

    But we cannot go on until you answer my questions above. So get to work. Play by your own rules or slink away.

    Posted by AIG | May 31, 2012, 3:59 pm
  104. Fi 7adan thani yghayer el maw9u3?

    Kis em elshaghlee.

    Posted by Gabriel | May 31, 2012, 4:06 pm
  105. ” I will bet that you will answer this also, because you are a liar with OCD, which makes you very entertaining.”

    I was of course right about my assessment of you. Here you go again, lying and posting.
    I am willing to bet that you will answer this also.

    Posted by AIG | May 31, 2012, 4:12 pm
  106. In case you do answer, I’d like to remind you of the questions still open:

    We cannot move on until you answer the question on Obama. If you don’t play by your own rules you are just an hypocrite.

    And why can’t you answer question 2 below? It is not related to my values, it is for the benefit of Lebanese. So just tell them you secret how to deal with Israel. We cannot move on until you do. You made a claim, back it up or admit your a liar.

    And there are other questions you need to answer before we move on:
    1) Why is the position of the US and Canada like Israel’s on cluster munitions?
    2) Why don’t you tell the Lebanese about your method to deal with Israel?
    3) Why aren’t you willing to save Lebanese from massacres and why do you think your position is moral?
    4) Do you not think it is cowardly to say you are afraid to help because there is a small chance you may get hurt?
    5) If your PM is a thug, what does it say about the people who voted for him.

    Posted by AIG | May 31, 2012, 4:25 pm
  107. Jan J’nounou.

    Danny,

    What’s happening in Montreal these days? Demonstrations, people getting cut up and mailed all over the place. Not sure if I am allowed to write stuff to you… I may be in violation of my pledge of silence!

    Posted by Gabriel | May 31, 2012, 5:27 pm
  108. PLEASE NOTE!!

    I’ve switched the settings so that only 50 comments are displayed at time. This will help speed up the loading of the page, I hope.

    Thanks to Monolith (aka Peter in Dubai, aka R2D2) for alerting me to this problem.

    Posted by Qifa Nabki | May 31, 2012, 5:33 pm
  109. AP,

    Israel (and Jews in general) will always be held to higher standards; so will be the Armenians & Rwandans…as Genocides were perpetrated on them. They have suffered the crimes of annihilation perpetrated on them…

    As for AIG well he has not answered whether dropping of cluster munitions in populated areas constitutes mass murder. I just noticed him admitting that in retrospect it was wrong. It always is wrong.

    Case rested and closed.

    Gabby; the guy is Torontonian dude.

    Posted by danny | May 31, 2012, 5:37 pm
  110. Kaching! I win the bet again.

    I bet you answer this one also.

    Here are the questions you are ignoring:
    We cannot move on until you answer the question on Obama. If you don’t play by your own rules you are just an hypocrite.

    And why can’t you answer question 2 below? It is not related to my values, it is for the benefit of Lebanese. So just tell them you secret how to deal with Israel. We cannot move on until you do. You made a claim, back it up or admit your a liar.

    And there are other questions you need to answer before we move on:
    1) Why is the position of the US and Canada like Israel’s on cluster munitions?
    2) Why don’t you tell the Lebanese about your method to deal with Israel?
    3) Why aren’t you willing to save Lebanese from massacres and why do you think your position is moral?
    4) Do you not think it is cowardly to say you are afraid to help because there is a small chance you may get hurt?
    5) If your PM is a thug, what does it say about the people who voted for him.

    Posted by AIG | May 31, 2012, 5:38 pm
  111. LoL.

    I don’t know how long Monolith thought he would get away thinking people wouldn’t catch on.

    Danny,

    Holy crap, we Torontonians really are messed up.

    Posted by Gabriel | May 31, 2012, 5:41 pm
  112. Right Danny,

    Obama is a mass murderer for ordering a drone strike with cluster weapons in a populated area.

    You forget that the problem was not the initial strike. Most of the people of South Lebanon moved north and there were few children around. Very few if any were killed from direct strike of cluster munitions.

    Neither your government nor the US government thinks that using cluster munitions is always wrong. You can say things like “it is always wrong to eat meat” but unless you can make a serious argument to support what you say, it means nothing.

    The US and Israel are working to reduce the dud rate to under 1%. When that happens cluster munitions would be almost as likely to be duds as regular bombs. There is no reason not to use them when this is achieved. If you want to make a sensible and measured statement, you can say that with the current dud rate, cluster munitions should not be used. That is indeed something worth debating.

    Posted by AIG | May 31, 2012, 5:46 pm
  113. Lally,

    You were right. AIG does love me quite a bit, and can’t seem to stop trying to get my attention!

    AIG: So you stop spamming QN’s forum:

    1) Why is the position of the US and Canada like Israel’s on cluster munitions?

    I don’t know what the US position on Cluster munitions is, and frankly I don’t care to know. If you are interested, research the topic, speak to Obama, and he’ll tell you why the US position is or is not (whatever the case may be) the same as Israel’s position on Cluster munitions.

    The position of Canada on Cluster munition is NOT the same as Israel’s position. For one Israel refuses to destroy its stockpiles, as I posted some time ago. Canada neither manufactures those weapons, nor stockpiles them.

    That Canada is willing to co-operate with nations who use them is no grounds for you to say that their position is Like Israel’s. It is not.

    2) Why don’t you tell the Lebanese about your method to deal with Israel?

    I don’t tell the Lebanese how to vote, or who to vote for. In fact I am opposed to the latest attempts by some in Lebanon to extend voting rights to all Lebanese. I do not live in the country, I do not pay taxes in the country. I am a Canadian. I live here, I breathe here, I pay taxes here, I am part of the social fabric of this society.

    The Lebanese should deal with Israel in the ways they know best, and based on the realities on the ground that I am not familiar with- as I don’t live there, nor do I suffer or am I cognizant of every violation Israel exacts on Lebanon.

    I have not devised a method to deal with Israel. So I have nothing to offer them on this regard.

    3) Why aren’t you willing to save Lebanese from massacres and why do you think your position is moral?

    What I do to help Lebanese from massacres is of NO concern to you. It is none of your business. I don’t ask you what you do in Israel. Don’t stick your nose in business that does not concern you.

    Let us say, for the sake of your asinine argument, that I did nothing at all except whine and complain all day about how terrible it was. It would not make my position immoral.

    Either way, I don’t think you should concern yourself about the morality of this Position. You have much to work on regarding your own Immoral standards.

    4) Do you not think it is cowardly to say you are afraid to help because there is a small chance you may get hurt?

    No. I don’t think it is cowardly. That is a ridiculous position. Are you calling AP a coward for not taking up arms in Israel!

    People make choices for a myriad of complex reasons.

    People help in different ways.

    Why are you obsessing on whether it is cowardly anyways?

    You dropped the bombs in the first place. You should worry in life about the little things you do to make the world a better place. Don’t worry about others. I didn’t ask you to go out of your way to make the world a better place. Just to refrain from dropping duds. It seems that was too much to ask.

    5) If your PM is a thug, what does it say about the people who voted for him.

    It says nothing. People vote for people for many different reasons. As I explained before, the candidate’s position on Cluster bombs was not an item on the various parties’ political platforms.

    So people who voted for Harper voted ostensibly (in the West) for his social conservative views and (in the East) for his fiscally conservative views.

    It turned out, post-election, that Harper is a liar who is less fiscally responsible than the liberal government before him.

    But there is no correlation between the PM’s thugishness and the people who voted for him… Unless of course his platform was Thuggish, and they voted for him on that basis.

    Are you happy? I hope this answers all your asinine and irrelevant questions.

    I won’t ask you to answer the questions you ignored to answer.

    Posted by Gabriel | May 31, 2012, 6:00 pm
  114. If you want to make a sensible and measured statement, you can say that with the current dud rate, cluster munitions should not be used. That is indeed something worth debating.

    Hahahahahahah.

    What exactly were we debating this whole time!

    We debated, and we concluded…

    You are a Selfish THUG.

    (PS- If you truly believed that there was something MORALLY WRONG with those >1% Dud Rates, the LEAST you would have done is taken exception with Israel’s official position to not commit to DESTROYING its stockpiles. Not least because you yourself stated that the poor dud rate was attributed to the storage methods).

    Posted by Gabriel | May 31, 2012, 6:06 pm
  115. Kaching! I win again.
    Your OCD is hilarious. You just keep lying that you won’t post again and you do.
    I bet you answer this one also.

    Let’s start with one of your most stupid answers:
    “2) Why don’t you tell the Lebanese about your method to deal with Israel?”
    “I have not devised a method to deal with Israel. So I have nothing to offer them on this regard.”

    But for tens of posts you refused to give this simple answer because you claimed you had a method to deal with Israel and that I was lucky you were not Lebanese. This is conclusive proof that you are a lying braggart.

    “I don’t know what the US position on Cluster munitions is, and frankly I don’t care to know. ”

    Because you didn’t answer the question about Obama that is still there. We cannot proceed until you do.

    “4) Do you not think it is cowardly to say you are afraid to help because there is a small chance you may get hurt?

    No. I don’t think it is cowardly. ”

    Of course you are a coward for not willing to do the bare minimum and take a small risk for Lebanon.

    “But there is no correlation between the PM’s thugishness and the people who voted for him…”

    Of course there is. Decent people do not vote for thugs. But your answer of course is stupid because you have committed to labeling Harper a “thug”, when in fact he is not.

    And I can go on and analyze the rest of your ridiculous “answers” we are just evasions. You are just cementing my view that you are an immoral cowardly bastard.

    Posted by AIG | May 31, 2012, 6:22 pm
  116. Dakheel rabak ya QN.. .

    Give this guy a lollipop.

    This is unreal.

    Favorite line:

    Kaching! I win again.

    Yes 7ayati… you win again, and again and again :).

    LoL.

    Posted by Gabriel | May 31, 2012, 6:27 pm
  117. But for tens of posts you refused to give this simple answer because you claimed you had a method to deal with Israel and that I was lucky you were not Lebanese.

    AIG.

    At the bottom of every post, there is a line that says:

    POSTED BY ****** | (DATE and TIME) ***************************

    If you right-click on Date and Time, a pull down menu appears.

    Select: Copy Link Address.

    Then paste it as part of your next post.

    I claimed you were lucky I was not Lebanese?

    I claimed I had a method to deal with Israel?

    Go find that comment and put a link to it. I want to see those words verbatim.

    Posted by Gabriel | May 31, 2012, 6:35 pm
  118. PS.

    Sorry, I missed your question on Obama. What is it again?

    Posted by Gabriel | May 31, 2012, 6:41 pm
  119. Kaching! I win again.
    I bet you answer this post also after promising QN more than once to stop. We have firmly established you are a liar.

    The Obama question? I asked it 10+ times. Find it yourself.

    2) Why don’t you tell the Lebanese about your method to deal with Israel?”
    “I have not devised a method to deal with Israel. So I have nothing to offer them on this regard.”

    But for tens of posts you refused to give this simple answer because you claimed you had a method to deal with Israel and that I was lucky you were not Lebanese. This is conclusive proof that you are a lying braggart.

    Now you want the quote? After ignoring the issue for hundreds of posts because you didn’t want to admit you are a lying braggart? Find it yourself.

    Posted by AIG | May 31, 2012, 6:52 pm
  120. AIG.

    Honestly I don’t remember the Obama question. Just re-ask it. I’m not even asking you to answer all the un-answered questions on your end. But I insist on answering ALL of your questions now.

    So please, just re-ask it one last time.

    Also, find the quote and post it. Otherwise, you are being slanderous. If you want to make accusations of me being a liar, stand behind them, and show me where I uttered those words!

    Posted by Gabriel | May 31, 2012, 6:57 pm
  121. Honestly? After lying without shame in front of everybody countless times you talk about honesty?
    Slander? You should have said that the first time we discussed it, not after hundreds of posts.

    Find the Obama question and quote by yourself, that will not be difficult. You will also find tons of other questions you ignored. I do not indulge immoral braggarts.

    Posted by AIG | May 31, 2012, 7:01 pm
  122. Well it really doesn’t change the fact that I don’t remember the question. I scrolled up 10s of posts, and all I found was you asking me to answer the Obama question. I know it relates to my view on his morality, but I need a specific question to be asked! So that I can answer! Do I think that Obama is Immoral because …

    Skip the link to the quote. You won’t find it anyways, and you’d end up wasting your time!

    But the Obama question…

    Posted by Gabriel | May 31, 2012, 7:06 pm
  123. “Skip the link to the quote. You won’t find it anyways, and you’d end up wasting your time!”

    There you go lying again. I found the quote easily, now you find it, immoral braggart.

    Posted by AIG | May 31, 2012, 7:54 pm
  124. QN,

    I can’t even retort directly under your comment or by comment number.

    How Brown decided to hire you given this glitch is beyond me.

    **AUB and Lebanon would be richer with you on board**

    You forgot “Random Thought of the Day” … by the way.

    Posted by Monolith | May 31, 2012, 7:54 pm
  125. Some research material, AIG… while I wait for your exact question on Obama.

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/idf-commander-we-fired-more-than-a-million-cluster-bombs-in-lebanon-1.197099

    the IDF fired around 1,800 cluster bombs

    containing over 1.2 million cluster bomblets.

    “What we did was insane and monstrous, we covered entire towns in cluster bombs,” the head of an IDF rocket unit in Lebanon said regarding the use of cluster bombs and phosphorous shells during the war.

    DUD RATE = 40% (40 Times the Rate AIG may or may not find acceptable)

    The cluster rounds which don’t detonate on impact, believed by the United Nations to be around 40% of those fired by the IDF in Lebanon,

    With those numbers in mind, kindly provided to us by the Israelis: There are 480000 DUDS left on Lebanese soil thanks to AIG.

    Masha’Allah.

    PS (last comment). It doesn’t suffice that you find it and call me a liar. You need to show me to be a liar! Come on AIG. Don’t you want the glory? So you can do another “I win, I win” dance 😉

    Posted by Gabriel | May 31, 2012, 8:11 pm
  126. Hey guys, if you think that there is one person who is interested in your personal dirty laundry then you are sadly mistaken. Of course you are free to duke it out but why don’t you do that off a public forum. It so happens that I opted for the automatic notifications on this thread and so I get to sample all of these posts. No offense is intended to any one.

    Posted by Ghassan Karam | May 31, 2012, 8:11 pm
  127. Gus,

    AIG can work this out with Lebanese compatriots on the Cypriot beaches of Limassol.

    However, for the sake of transparency, who owns and funds Yalibnan?

    Thanks for the input.

    Posted by Monolith | May 31, 2012, 8:28 pm
  128. Monolith,
    I am not a fan of answering peripheral questions but I will make an exception for this time. To the best of my knowledge Yalibnan is one of the first major efforts to have e news media in Lebanon. It is owned by its contributors and it is self financing.

    Posted by gkaram | May 31, 2012, 8:48 pm
  129. As Marcel Ghanem would have pointed out:

    Great ! Moving on …

    **Pointlessly**

    Posted by Monolith | May 31, 2012, 8:58 pm
  130. So AIG, is this your default response when asked to back up your claims with proof?

    “I found the quote easily, now you find it, immoral braggart.”

    0 1 Rate This
    POSTED BY AIG | MAY 31, 2012, 7:

    Good to see you expose yourself so to speak.

    Trust me on that.

    Posted by lally | June 1, 2012, 12:56 am
  131. Israel (and Jews in general) will always be held to higher standards; so will be the Armenians & Rwandans…as Genocides were perpetrated on them. They have suffered the crimes of annihilation perpetrated on them…

    Danny,

    Thank you for posting your opinion, but it doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. As someone who considers himself a “moderate” and who accepts Israel as a legitimate country, I’m at a loss as to why you think Israel, Armenia and Rwanda have to play by a different set of rules than the rest of the world??

    And what special rules did the world place on the Rwandans after they murdered each other in a civil war to the tune of 0.5 to 1 million souls? Who is boycotting Rwanda?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Genocide

    And what different set of rules were the Armenians playing with when they were fighting the Azeris? Did the Turkish genocide of 1.5 million Armenians in the early 1900s prevent the Armenians from defending themselves in some way? Was the international news putting a microscope on the Armenian defence forces?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagorno-Karabakh_War

    Meanwhile, Israel has faced near annihilation (AFTER the Holocaust) in 1948 and in 1982. She was threatened with annihiulation by Saddam Hussein (who fired 39 Scud missiles into Israel) and is now being similarly threatened by Iran and their proxies.

    And you’re saying that despite these threats, ESPECIALLY after the Holocaust, that Israel has to play by another set of rules?? Where do you get this from? Did you just make it up??

    IMO, in matters of war, Israel should play by the same set of rules as any other country. One of these rules is that a country has the right to self-defence. The right also means Israel has the right to fire on missile launchers and not have to check with the neighbors to see if there are innocent by-standers in the vicinity.

    Israel can play the game of apologies just like Obama, but in the end, Israel’s defense comes first. Legally, according to the laws of war. Just like any other country. Just like the US.

    I’m trying to wrap my mind around your need to hold Israel and Jews to “higher standards”, and, well frankly, its an odd opinion.

    As for AIG well he has not answered whether dropping of cluster munitions in populated areas constitutes mass murder. I just noticed him admitting that in retrospect it was wrong. It always is wrong.

    Danny, if the use of cluster munitions always equates to “mass murder”, the US would not make them and use them. This is currently being debated. There are laws of war, and accidently killing innocent people is not necessarily illegal. If that were the case, the US and the allies would have lost the war.

    BTW – Did the US have to face the ICC judges for bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki? What set of rules was the US military playing with in this case? What about Japan?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II

    Now that there are few border disputes in the world, it is important that the UN and the world community act BEFORE hostilities occur and/or act decisively when they do break out. Right now, Russia and China are letting Assad kill whomever he wants.

    Posted by Akbar Palace | June 1, 2012, 7:27 am
  132. Danny,

    We know how the Arab and Mulsim world reacted to the Gaza and Lebanese war, where about 1500 Gazans and Lebanese were killed in each conflict (most of them combatants).

    How does the reaction of the Arab and Muslim world against Israel compare to their reaction of the Syrian regime, which has killed over 13,000 people and just as much or more damage?

    Why?

    Posted by Akbar Palace | June 1, 2012, 7:42 am
  133. G Karam. Thank you for trying to bring this discussion back to something of interest – the disgrace that is the Lebanese economy and the massive public debt. You might find this interesting. I think you and the author of this article come to the same conclusion, though from different angles.

    http://english.al-akhbar.com/content/lebanon-anatomy-dysfunctional-economy

    I agree that it’s absolutely shameful that no body is doing anything about it and more interested in who will be (as BV or Gabriel once put it) Deputy Dog Catcher in Upper Metn.

    What can be done to overcome this debt burden short of defaulting? Am not sure that defaulting will do any good in this case since most of that debt is held locally anyway.

    Could it be that past/current governments have racked up this debt in the good public’s name to enrich themselves while keeping the greatest settlement of all in the back of their mind: Palestinians in exchange of debt forgiveness?

    But again, if this debt is held locally, world powers can’t forgive it.

    I think we’d all benefit from your opinion on what to do about the debt burden.

    Posted by Johnny Seikaly | June 1, 2012, 8:12 am
  134. coorection to my post above: change 1982 to 1973

    Posted by Akbar Palace | June 1, 2012, 8:24 am
  135. AP,

    People who have suffered; as the nations I have mentioned above; should take care on how they conduct themselves in war and peace. The arrogance shown once you think you are cornered reveals more insecurities. You damn well know that Saddam Hussein’s empty rhetoric as well as HA are just that. Israel is protected by it’s nuclear arsenal as deterrent as well as USA/West’s vociferous support for Israel. I don’t give a rat’s ass about Obama. Please show me where Armenia used cluster bombs in their war? FYI Armenia has been under blockade for a long time having just an unstable corridor with Georgia and Iran….and i is landlocked. But you don’t see them trying to bomb the crap out of civilian population in Azerbaijan every time a soldier is shot dead on their border.

    One other point about hypocritical Israel and Turkey. they have at least 16 military “agreement” and treaties with them. have any one of them been cancelled? All the BS in public is just that. Why does Israel not recognize the Armenian Genocide?

    Posted by danny | June 1, 2012, 9:07 am
  136. Gabriel,

    You still have not been able to find the quote? What is the problem there are only about 300 comments on this thread, why are you so incompetent?

    And where in the article you posted does it say that Israel knew in advance what the dud rate will be? Again, you miss the whole point.

    You argue so much about the cluster munitions. You and Danny whine and bitch about it, but when you had a chance to actually do something, like help clear the duds, you did nothing. Actions count much more than words. Not one Israeli was harmed from Hezbollah duds and there were plenty. Why? Because unlike you, we did not sit on our ass and act like cowards. We did not complain and rant. We just took care of the problem.

    If you had acted constructively, the duds would not have been such a big problem. But for you, it was just an opportunity to show how incompetent you are. You can only blame yourselves.

    Israel and Lebanon are enemies. We left every single square millimeter of your country in 2000 as verified by the UN. That was not good enough for you. If you want peace, let us know. Otherwise, don’t complain and clean up your own shit instead of acting like little children.

    Posted by AIG | June 1, 2012, 9:44 am
  137. Danny,

    You really want to bring Armenia as an example? Do you think people don’t remember Khojaly?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khojaly_Massacre

    And how about the 800,000 displaced Azeris, which if they were Palestinians you would call “ethnic cleansing”?

    You are total moron giving Armenia as an example of a country acting nicely.

    Posted by AIG | June 1, 2012, 9:52 am
  138. You damn well know that Saddam Hussein’s empty rhetoric as well as HA are just that.

    Danny,

    I’m sorry but I’ll have to disagree with you. Israelis did NOT know his scuds were not going to drop chemical weapons. That is why Israelis were issued gas-masks. Syria and Iran also have Scuds and also have chemical weapons.

    HA fired missiles into Haifa and claim they can fire deeper and more accurately into Israel. Villages near the border Kiryat Shemona as well as Israeli-arab villages were fired upon frequently as HA sent thousands of missiles into Israel.

    WTF is Israel supposed to do? You’re the PM of Israel. You tell me.

    You don’t care Obama? Why not? Why doesn’t the US “murder” of Afghanis half-way around the world concern you as much as 40,000 missiles on the Israel/Lebanon border in the hands of your favorite people: Hezbollah (sarcasm intended)?

    Why does Israel not recognize the Armenian Genocide?

    A google search on: israel turkey genocide gives you the answer: it’s political. Am I proud of the decision? No. But the Israel-Turkey alliance was extremely beneficial for Israel. The way things are going, Israel will recognize the genocide. And then what? All of a sudden Danny will like Israel more? Will it save lives? Will it make anti-Zionists happy?

    I would prefer if Israel had more friends in the ME so she didn’t have to seek help from shady regimes. Now that Jews have power, it has to make decisions based on reality. I’d rather have a country who can defend itself and make mistakes than be powerless/helpless victims who never made mistakes. If you want to be Jesus, you’re ceertainly welcome to walk in his footsteps.

    Posted by Akbar Palace | June 1, 2012, 10:11 am
  139. AIG:

    Nope. Didn’t find the comment. And I looked. Either I’m incompetent or you are an endemic liar.

    And where in the article you posted does it say that Israel knew in advance what the dud rate will be?

    The article didn’t say it explicitly.

    You on the other hand said it.

    To jog your memory, read the following:

    https://qifanabki.com/2012/05/21/the-number-one-sunni-in-lebanon/comment-page-5/#comment-35984

    and I quote:

    As for testing dud rates, you do that in a munition range genius.

    SInce you have already boldly stated how the US and Israel are actively researching lowering Dud rates to < 1%, and that they test them in Munition ranges. Clearly, as they were developing the system, they must have run the tests!

    And by running the tests, they would have established that the dud rate was 40%.

    Unless you are saying that the tests (in munition ranges) are unreliable. In which case, why would you ever use those bombs again?

    All of this is quite irrelevant though, and nit-picking. The bottom line is that you are a Child Murderer. You don't REALLY care whether the Dud Rate is 1%, 10%, 40% or 100%.

    If you did, you would be willing to man up and take personal moral responsiblity for the deaths of civilians, and to be contrite about it.

    But you don't.

    Because you don't care.

    Posted by Gabriel | June 1, 2012, 10:19 am
  140. PS.

    Still waiting on that Obama question.

    Back to Syria. So you think it’s alright for Israel to drop more than 480,000… that’s 480 THOUSAND duds on Lebanon, and you think there is nothing morally wrong with that.

    What is morally wrong with Bashar pummeling Baba Amr and Houla with heavy weapons and the full force of his army?

    I am trying to understand how you make a distinction between the two scenarios in your mind.

    [We have already established that you are not certain Bashar ordered anyone to slit any child’s throat, and so that is not the distinction].

    What, pray tell, is the distinction?

    Posted by Gabriel | June 1, 2012, 10:29 am
  141. What an incompetent fool you are. You can’t remember of find a comment you made by yourself! It took me two minutes. What is your problem? Ask one of your kids to help you if you don’t know how to use search or can’t read.

    The facts are simple. I cleaned the mess you left in my country and no Israeli kid died. You are an incompetent immoral lying braggart good at only talking and you left the bomblets around while waving your hands and pointing fingers. Your inaction harmed Lebanese kids. Not only are you immoral, you are shameless. You did not help when you could, you did not act when you should have and you blame others!

    And I explained again and again that part of the problem was storage. The dud rate when the munitions were fresh was fine, but they deteriorated badly in storage and this was not foreseen.

    Posted by AIG | June 1, 2012, 10:33 am
  142. We cannot continue because we have established you are a lying braggart. You made claims that are BS. And now you claim you “can’t find” your comment. Play by your own rules or slink away. Find your comment and respond or admit you are a lying braggart.

    We have also established you don’t only lie to me, you lie to QN. You told him several times you would not comment and you did. We cannot move forward until you address that.

    You have not answered also the question on Obama and several others. We cannot move forward until you address that.

    Play by your own rules or slink away.

    Posted by AIG | June 1, 2012, 10:38 am
  143. And I explained again and again that part of the problem was storage. The dud rate when the munitions were fresh was fine, but they deteriorated badly in storage and this was not foreseen.

    So why is Israel NOT committing to destroying its stockpiles? Are those stockpiles not affected by the same “Deterioration”.

    Will the next round of Dud testing for newly manufacturing, baked fresh out of the oven bomblets, be given sufficient “Storage” time to ensure that none of those bomblets become rancid with time? What storage time are your engineers proposing to use?

    AIG- Stop talking about this non-existent comment. If you are embarrassed that it does not exist, shut it. Bringing it up again and again simply demonstrates that you are a liar.

    Posted by Gabriel | June 1, 2012, 10:38 am
  144. We have also established you don’t only lie to me, you lie to QN. You told him several times you would not comment and you did. We cannot move forward until you address that.

    I did. I made the commitment, and I held to it for a whole 10 minutes or so. Then I noticed you spamming this site, disrespectfully with copy-paste of a bunch of questions… desperately trying to get my attention.

    I figured if I answered the questions you’d stop.

    Apparently I was wrong.

    Also- I’ve answered all known questions to me. So I play by my own rules. I don’t know why you are having a hard time explaining to me why you think it is morally wrong for Bashar to pummel Baba Amr and Houla with the full force of his army, when you don’t think it is wrong morally for you to drop 480000 duds on Lebanese soil.

    If you feel you need more answers from me, you are welcome to re-ask any question you like.

    Posted by Gabriel | June 1, 2012, 10:49 am
  145. Boy are you stupid. Don’t you think that Israel is trying to find ways to repair the munitions instead of just throwing them away? I guess you never fix things, just throw them away. That explains a lot about why you are incompetent.

    Are you certain the comment does not exist? Yes or no?
    The comment exists and you are an incompetent liar and a lazy fool. You are also an idiot. I QUOTED the comment to you and asked you to comment on it. And you of course did not because what could you say except that you are a lying braggart? It is right on this thread and you can’t find it. Wow are you pathetic.

    We have also established you don’t only lie to me, you lie to QN. You told him several times you would not comment and you did. We cannot move forward until you address that.

    You have not answered also the question on Obama and several others. We cannot move forward until you address that.

    Play by your own rules or slink away.

    Posted by AIG | June 1, 2012, 10:51 am
  146. Ok, I’m going to shut this down. Next topic!

    Posted by Qifa Nabki | June 1, 2012, 10:54 am

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